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Avada Kedavra- A Counter Curse?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 13th, 2005, 7:38 pm
matthewchilders  Undisclosed.gif matthewchilders is offline
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Avada Kedavra- A Counter Curse?

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So the argument that Dumbledore did or didn't die is up in the air. Both sides have thier respective arguments full of facts and theories to back them up. So there is no point in delving into it again. My question is however.. is it possible that either through Dumbledore's death or through Snapes possible future in the 7th book. Could Harry find or 'invent' (possibly with Snapes help) a counter curse to Avada Kadavra.

Let us share what we know. We know that there is no known counter to Avada Kadavra. Why is this? I think alot of readers took for granted that no wizard even the really great wizards could come up with one because Avada Kadavra was one of the darkest forms of magic.. so dark that it didn't actually have a counter curse. However I prefer a more simple realization. There is no counter curse because no one would be dumb enough to actually test it out. For example I don't think we'd See Fred and using the Avada Kadavra Curse on George because they are trying to invent a blocking spell. You'd have to know it worked to actually attempt it.

Or perhaps it might take something else to create a spell. Using Dumbledore's 'death' as an example.. perhaps his death was used to create a counter curse to Avada Kadavra. Much like Lilly's death protected Harry. Perhaps Dumbledore's death created a spell. As I write this I almost think it might be stretching a bit but then again we don't know how spells are invented. We also know that Snape did invent spells. What is involved? Are the spells already there for Wizards to use.. they just have to have the right combinations of words.. or does it take something more. Willpower, a sacrifice, a death.. what?

Allow me even to go further. We know that Snape created spells when he was in school. Sectum Sempera for example. We also know that Dumbledore and Snape argued over something.. something that Snape was finding hard to continue. We also have Dumbledore pleading with Snape just before Snape used Avada Kadavra. Could it be possible in fact.. Dumbledore ordered Snape to work on a Counter-curse to Avada Kadavra. Snape was having troubles with it and was having a hard time keeping on task.. which is the reason for the argument. During the Dumbledore 'death' scene perhaps in that moment that people say Snape and Dumbledore communicated mentally that Snape communicated the Counter-curse to Dumbledore. Perhaps it was not Snape who used a non-verbal spell but Dumbledore himself.

Of course we won't know until book 7 comes out but I would like to know what others think. You may disagree with the above theory but perhaps you see something else to the idea that a counter-curse could be invented in Book 7. Or perhaps Dumbledore's name itself becomes a powerful spell..

M-



Last edited by gertiekeddle; July 23rd, 2007 at 9:15 pm.
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  #2  
Old December 13th, 2005, 7:48 pm
Silentone  Male.gif Silentone is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Intriguing theory... I must consider this, it is possible of course that there could be a counter curse...

Ok, thought about it, and there already is a counter curse so to speak and it is what Dumbledore has spoken about a lot. It is not really a spell so to speak though, it is the sacrafice lily made, in other words the power of love dumbledore is always going on about is the counter curse as lily showed us. I do not think one could focus that into a spell of some sort, it would instead have to be something inside the wizard that would cause the Avada Kedavra curse to rebound off of him if he was hit by it. Now good luck testing that... though it would seem essential for harry to find out how to do such a thing. I guess simply put, overwhelming love can cancel out the curse of death.


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Last edited by Silentone; December 13th, 2005 at 7:56 pm.
  #3  
Old December 13th, 2005, 8:18 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I could easily see 3/4 of this happening (the parts concering Harry making a spell with Snapes help) howerver I don't think Dumbledores death will be involved in making it.


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Old December 13th, 2005, 8:51 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I agree with what you said about the risks involved in testing out a counter curse to avada kedavra, but on the other hand, since you have to "mean it" in order for it to be effective, a test probably wouldn't be too reliable unless you tested it in a battle situation trying to save your own life.

I also agree that Love is essentially the means of blocking avada kedavra, but you can’t do it for yourself. It has to be a self-sacrificing love, so you couldn’t really protect yourself with it.

I think Snape - if anyone - would be smart enough to come up with a counter curse (if it were even possible), but I can't see him & Harry working on it together...even before Book 6, but particularly after the tower scene.

Speaking of which, I am among those who believe there is more to Dumbledore's "death" than meets the eye. I believe one of two things is going on here:

1) By sacrificing himself on the tower after immobilizing Harry under the invisibility cloak, Dumbledore effectively gave Harry the same sort of protection that Lily gave him when she was killed. (And maybe now Harry will have to return to Hogwart’s at least once a year), or

2) Dumbledore had a solution to Snape's use of those words against him. Maybe a counter curse, or maybe something we readers aren’t yet aware of (or that seemed so insignificant when we read it that we failed to notice it). I just can’t let go of the fact that Dumbledore told Draco, only moments before his own supposed death, that he could protect Draco from Voldemort if he wished to join the good guys, because Voldemort couldn’t kill him if he was already dead. Dumbledore couldn’t have been suggesting Draco should really die, so he obviously was aware of some magical means of making someone appear dead even when they are not dead. Dumbledore was weak (from age, from whatever happened when he procured the ring and messed up his hand, from the potion he drank to get the locket) and perhaps he needed to appear dead to give himself time to regain his strength, or maybe he needed to appear dead to get Snape in closer to Voldemort so he could be a better spy for the Order, or maybe he needed to appear dead to make Harry more self-reliant and stronger for what lies ahead of him.


  #5  
Old December 13th, 2005, 9:14 pm
griever_PLT  Male.gif griever_PLT is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

your theory sounds great, I hope this will be true


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Old December 13th, 2005, 9:20 pm
Lordovich  Male.gif Lordovich is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Dumbledore's dead. The book clearly states that he's gone. The curse on Harry lifted, a Dumbledore painting appeared in the Headmaster's office and Fawkes left. Oh, and then it's the fact that they buried Dumbledore's body, which wouldn't be the case if he'd survived. So, I'm fairly certain that Dumbledore is gone, even though I'd hope he wasn't.


  #7  
Old December 13th, 2005, 9:21 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griever_PLT
your theory sounds great, I hope this will be true
It does sound great However the part abut Snape helping I find a little hard to agree with. (of course this could be, because I believe Snape is evil)


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  #8  
Old December 13th, 2005, 9:21 pm
luna62442  Female.gif luna62442 is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I don't know... I think Dumbledore being resurrected, or a counter-curse to Avada Kedavra being invented, would sorta go against things.
Harry, Dumbledore etc. aren't afraid of death, that is one of their strengths. I doubt they'd waste time finding a counter-curse to death when it isn't something that frightens them.


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  #9  
Old December 13th, 2005, 10:38 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Dumbledore's dead. And I think the kind of protection Lily's death (augmented by Dumbledore's magic) gave Harry is only available to children because it wears off at 17. I don't think adults are supposed to go through live protected. Dumbledore doesn't have the choice about dying that Lily did--and I've also gotten the impression (although I may be wrong) that the sort of protection Lily gave has to be for blood kin because of the emphasis on Harry continuing to live with his mother's sister.

I also think that Avada Kedavra NEEDS to be indefensible . . . just as Voldemort had no defense against Lily's sacrifice.


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  #10  
Old December 14th, 2005, 2:28 am
felipeochoa  Male.gif felipeochoa is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMollywobbles
1) By sacrificing himself on the tower after immobilizing Harry under the invisibility cloak, Dumbledore effectively gave Harry the same sort of protection that Lily gave him when she was killed. (And maybe now Harry will have to return to Hogwart’s at least once a year), or
This can't happen because Dumbledore wasn't given a choice, unless his arguing with Snape.....interesting idea


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  #11  
Old December 14th, 2005, 2:50 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordovich
Dumbledore's dead. The book clearly states that he's gone.
True. Sorcerer's Stone also clearly stated that Scabbers was a rat.


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  #12  
Old December 14th, 2005, 3:21 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I was thinking of this a few days ago and it connects to this theory somewhat.

(This may be completely due to the fact that Snape is known for being an excellent potions person.) When Dumbledore and Harry are returning from Hogsmeade, why does Dumbledore need Snape to be there? It is probably insignificant, but, like all of the other minor details that have turned out to be important, I think it might have significance. Why wouldn't he call for Slughorn? Slughorn was Potions Master at the time; was it because he trusted Snape more? We've already learned that Slughorn cannot support the Death Eaters, as we learn in the begining of HBP that if Dumbledore and Harry had been Death Eaters, his house would have been marked and he most likely would have been dead already; if not, they would eventually get to him, just as they got to Kharkarof. As such, he can trust them both equally, no? Unless there is something else going on, which, as suggested, is qutie plausible. Again, it is not unreasonable to simply discount this to the fact that Snape was more skilled with Potions, but it does seem a bit fishy to me.


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  #13  
Old December 14th, 2005, 3:34 am
AlasEarWax  Female.gif AlasEarWax is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

If anyone could come up with a countercurse, it would be Dumbledore. The one thing I'd like to bring up is that we did see someone saved from an Avada Kedavra before. Remember when Fawkes swallowed the jet of green light? So it is possible for an Avada Kedavra not to result in an actual death. Fawkes died in a way, but was reborn from the ashes as always. Was that commanded by Dumbledore by the way? Or does Fawkes just instinctively protect him?

I don't believe that when Dumbledore and Snape were in the tower any countercurse was attempted. It seems that the only time an ** doesn't work is when someone is hit with it who wasn't meant to be. (This applies to Lily too, since she was not the intended murder).


  #14  
Old December 14th, 2005, 4:23 am
Trollawney  Female.gif Trollawney is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewchilders
Could Harry find or 'invent' (possibly with Snapes help) a counter curse to Avada Kadavra.

M-
I think you make some good points. We know that Snape has been creating new spells since he was a teen, so if anyone could help Harry develop a counter curse to ** it would be him. However, Harry no HATES Snape. It would take something extraordinary to make Harry trust him.
The idea of an ** counter-curse is a good one, but I think it will be something more than a simple spell. It will be the cumulative result of many things-Lily's sacrifice, Ron & Hermione's friendship loyalty, Harry's love for Ginny & vice versa, just to name a few possibilities.


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Old December 14th, 2005, 1:11 pm
Lordovich  Male.gif Lordovich is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frizbog
True. Sorcerer's Stone also clearly stated that Scabbers was a rat.
Yes, but in this case, all evidence suggests that Dumbledore is in fact gone, as I pointed out. Why would the spell lift otherwise? Dumbledore had no wand, you know. And, Fawkes knew Dumbledore was dead, as he left. Plus, Pettigrew's body were never found. Dumbledore's, however, were rather intact. In my humble opinion, that cleary proves that Dumbledore is in fact dead, even though I'd love to see him - and Sirius - alive.


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Old December 14th, 2005, 1:16 pm
Idioglossia  Male.gif Idioglossia is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordovich
Yes, but in this case, all evidence suggests that Dumbledore is in fact gone, as I pointed out. Why would the spell lift otherwise? Dumbledore had no wand, you know. And, Fawkes knew Dumbledore was dead, as he left. Plus, Pettigrew's body were never found. Dumbledore's, however, were rather intact. In my humble opinion, that cleary proves that Dumbledore is in fact dead, even though I'd love to see him - and Sirius - alive.
I think there is enough evidence to suggest ** is alive....

Most of it is stated here - www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com


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Old December 14th, 2005, 1:23 pm
Claire_13  Female.gif Claire_13 is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I totally understand on what your reason for the question is and I like your thoughts about finding a counter curse but maybe its possible that no-one has made one due to the fact of its an Unforgivable curse-imperius:you refuse to follow,cruciatus(spelt right?):i'm not sure and avada kedavra......do you understand what I mean hehe


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Old December 14th, 2005, 1:44 pm
Mad_Ravenclaw  Female.gif Mad_Ravenclaw is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luna62442
I don't know... I think Dumbledore being resurrected, or a counter-curse to Avada Kedavra being invented, would sorta go against things.
Harry, Dumbledore etc. aren't afraid of death, that is one of their strengths. I doubt they'd waste time finding a counter-curse to death when it isn't something that frightens them.
Beside, JKR stated clearly nothing can bring back the deads to life (end of Gof). I'm not talking about Inferi, they're not "alive". This is a very against-nature thing I just don't see JKR using. But what do I know?

Even if Snape's really good, I don't know how they could sort out their mutual hatred and work on anything together. They couldn't do it in OotP, so now...

So ok, the only counter-curse is that somebody who dearly loves you gives out his/her life for you. But as Shewoman said, Dumbledore wasn't given the choice. The other people didn't even know Harry was up there on the tower. Only Dumbledore was threatened, not Harry. So it wasn't a sacrifice out of love.
Now this makes me think of Ginny, or even Ron and Hermione, and reaaaaaally fear for them. But maybe it would be a bit cheesy if this would happen twice, no? I mean, Lily, and now the girl he loves or his best friend? What do you all think about it?

I don't think Avada Kedavra is meant to have any other counter-curse beside the love sacrifice. I mean, in this world of magic where almost everything is possible, something has to be definitive. There are ghosts and such... But something, in the plot, has to be really scary, you know, make us fear for our heros, make us and them dread death, immediate and sudden death.
Don't you think?


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Last edited by Mad_Ravenclaw; December 14th, 2005 at 1:51 pm.
  #19  
Old December 14th, 2005, 1:46 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Lemsip?


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  #20  
Old December 14th, 2005, 1:47 pm
Mad_Ravenclaw  Female.gif Mad_Ravenclaw is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordovich
Dumbledore's dead. The book clearly states that he's gone. The curse on Harry lifted, a Dumbledore painting appeared in the Headmaster's office and Fawkes left. Oh, and then it's the fact that they buried Dumbledore's body, which wouldn't be the case if he'd survived. So, I'm fairly certain that Dumbledore is gone, even though I'd hope he wasn't.
I agree. Unfortunately.


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