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Avada Kedavra- A Counter Curse?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 14th, 2005, 3:32 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordovich
Yes, but in this case, all evidence suggests that Dumbledore is in fact gone, as I pointed out. Why would the spell lift otherwise? Dumbledore had no wand, you know. And, Fawkes knew Dumbledore was dead, as he left. Plus, Pettigrew's body were never found. Dumbledore's, however, were rather intact. In my humble opinion, that cleary proves that Dumbledore is in fact dead, even though I'd love to see him - and Sirius - alive.
I agree with you -- Dumbledore probably is dead -- however, at the time, before CoS came out, all evidence suggested that Scabbers was merely a rat. There was not a shred of evidence to even hint that he was anything but. If I had posted a theory on some forum that "Scabbers is really a wizard in disguise who in book four will cut off his hand into a stew from which Voldemort will rise again" before book two had even been written, everyone would have run me off.

So, who knows what Jo will do in book seven? She always introduces new stuff in each book that takes what we thought we knew and changes it.


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  #22  
Old December 14th, 2005, 3:54 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by felipeochoa
This can't happen because Dumbledore wasn't given a choice, unless his arguing with Snape.....interesting idea
Actually, I have to differ in opinion with you on this. I think Dumbledore clearly did have a choice here and he chose to protect Harry over himself. He used his last seconds before Draco arrived on the tower to immobilize Harry safely under his invisibility cloak rather than to fight for himself. He very CLEARLY gave his life (if he is actually dead) to protect Harry, and it was BY CHOICE. The only argument against this that I might by into is that part about it having to be a blood relative you're protecting, but do we actually know that Dumbledore is NOT a blood relative of Harry's? I know that Dumbledore once said the Dursleys were the only family Harry had, but maybe that was a further sacrifice on his part to protect Harry. And of course, we don't actually KNOW that the sacrifice has to be by a blood relative to work. Real love is real love...whether you are related or not.


  #23  
Old December 14th, 2005, 4:05 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

MrsMollywobbles--

I like what you said about "real love is real love." It sort of ties in with my theory that Harry has focused on family as those to whom he is related by blood (I mean, the Dursleys?!), rather than on what constitutes a real family--a group of people who love you, care for you and are there for you, and for whom you share the same feelings. So from that perspective Dumbledore is part of Harry's family.


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  #24  
Old December 14th, 2005, 4:30 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luna62442
I don't know... I think Dumbledore being resurrected, or a counter-curse to Avada Kedavra being invented, would sorta go against things.
Harry, Dumbledore etc. aren't afraid of death, that is one of their strengths. I doubt they'd waste time finding a counter-curse to death when it isn't something that frightens them.
I agree with you it's not there kind of thing to do. There is so much possible in the magical world (even killing) but if it would be as easy as just 'blocking' the curse, you could use any kind of blocking spell (like the shield charm) I don't think anyone would like to test wheter or not the counter-spell works


  #25  
Old December 14th, 2005, 6:13 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idioglossia
I think there is enough evidence to suggest ** is alive....

Most of it is stated here - www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com
Interesting page, but it seems so farfetched somehow. Maybe not the part about Snape doing it on request by Dumbledore, but certainly the part about Dumbledore surviving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frizbog
I agree with you -- Dumbledore probably is dead -- however, at the time, before CoS came out, all evidence suggested that Scabbers was merely a rat. There was not a shred of evidence to even hint that he was anything but. If I had posted a theory on some forum that "Scabbers is really a wizard in disguise who in book four will cut off his hand into a stew from which Voldemort will rise again" before book two had even been written, everyone would have run me off.

So, who knows what Jo will do in book seven? She always introduces new stuff in each book that takes what we thought we knew and changes it.
I would say that the fact that Scabbers were no ordinary rat is much more feasible than Dumbledore being alive, at least concerning the spell that lifted and the fact that they had Dumbledore's body.


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  #26  
Old December 14th, 2005, 8:34 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I think it would be a terrible thing of Rowling to do if, in the following spring or whenever, Harry visits the White Tomb only to find that the lid of the tomb has been cast aside and Dumbledore's body is gone. In short, based on what I've read, I also believe Dumbledore to be dead - at least, physically. Of course, we know Dumbledore's portrait is now capable of passing on useful advice to either the new headmistress or even Harry should he visit M'Gonagall at Hogwarts. More importantly, we know Dumbledore is alive and well in Harry's heart, as the Minister found out from Harry at the funeral.

Having said that, I agree with previous posts that suggest both (1) that 'love' is a counter-curse (of sorts) to the killing curse and (2) that Dumbledore's affection for Harry is akin, or exactly like, a mother or father's love for her or his child. I, for one, believe Harry will be able to invoke Dumbledore's spirit and the love of all of his friends at the appropriate time in order to defeat Voldemort once and for all.

For reasons that are probably more appropriately mentioned in other threads, I also believe Harry will not kill anyone using the killing curse, including Voldemort. Furthermore, if there were a counter-curse, "Expelliarmus" has already been shown in GoF to be useful in blocking "Avada Kedavra." Priori Incantatem. However, I'm not quite sure what would've happened to Harry had he held on to his wand in the graveyard at the end of GoF. Using that episode as an example, I do now firmly believe Harry will defeat the killing curse. Perhaps Snape will shoot him the counter-curse using Occlumency. Maybe Occlumency was at play in Dumbledore's death, but I cannot speculate as to how or why.


  #27  
Old December 14th, 2005, 10:41 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luna62442
I don't know... I think Dumbledore being resurrected, or a counter-curse to Avada Kedavra being invented, would sorta go against things.
Harry, Dumbledore etc. aren't afraid of death, that is one of their strengths. I doubt they'd waste time finding a counter-curse to death when it isn't something that frightens them.
thats a good point


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  #28  
Old December 14th, 2005, 11:35 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I don't think that there is a counter curse for it, they would already be dead, and they would have used it on Cedric.


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  #29  
Old December 27th, 2005, 7:35 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I'm guessing that there isn't a counter curse. And if there was, I DOUBT that Snape would help Harry find it.


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  #30  
Old December 27th, 2005, 7:43 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Dumbledore's dead and although Snape would definitely be the man to create a counter course to Avada Kedavra I think what others have said is what's the truth. Self-sacrificing love is what can block death. Cool theory, though, and it'd be interesting if it were true.


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  #31  
Old December 27th, 2005, 5:28 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I think there's a good chance that we will see a counter-curse for Avada Kedavra. If not, it means (symbolically) that hate and evil can go unchecked in the world, which is not the case.

As for Dumbledore being alive or dead, I think he's dead, for now. There's so much phoenix symbolism around his character to not expect some sort of "rebirth" to occur in Bk.7. I'm not suggest that there will be a "bone of the father" whole type of ordeal around it, but maybe some sort of ancient magic, perhaps.


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  #32  
Old January 10th, 2006, 4:06 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I think there is no countercurse for Avada Kedavra (if Snape really is bad then I changed my mind). I think the unbreakable vow will only kill you if you believe that you broke it, so I think dumbledore used something (such as a confoundment charm) to fool snape into thinking that he's helping malfoy by faking killing dumbledore. I know it sounds weird at first, but stop and think about it. It will start to make sense.


  #33  
Old January 11th, 2006, 12:44 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Alas Earwax, why do you think an Avada Kedavra doesn't work if it hits someone other than its intended victim? Have we seen this happen before? I didn't think anyone had survived an Avada Kedavra that hit them except Harry (and Voldemort--who survived because of his Horcruxes).


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  #34  
Old January 11th, 2006, 1:25 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

The only way that i would invent a counter curse myself is for it to be a non-verbal spell. and i think Dumbledore is dead because Voldemort tells Harry in the philosopher's stone that together they can bring back harry's parents but right then we learn that Voldemort lied, so no, he isn't alive, just like siruis isn't alive but i think this is the wrong thread to argue this in.


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  #35  
Old January 11th, 2006, 1:58 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

In Order of the Pheonix, most of us all know that Dumbledore and Voldemort dueled. It was two of the best wizards this world has ever known type of duel, and you don't see them everyday so everyone was on the edge of their seats, reading what was happening.

Voldemort sent many Killing Curses at Dumbledore and once or tice, at Harry. The statue stopped many of them from doing much damage, so we know that the Curse isn't unstoppable.

Now the Cruciatus Curse and the Imperius Curse can both be fought.

Harry showed in Goblet of Fire that he could hold off Moody's Imperius Curse. We can probably state that Imposter Moody was not trying to hurt Harry too much, at the moment, but we know that it can be fought. We know that the tool to do this is, CONSTANT VIGILANCE, right? We also learn that Bary Crouch Sr. had been fighting Malfoy's, meaning Lucius Malfoy's, curse and before that, Bary Crouch Jr. had been fighting his father, Barty Crouch Sr.'s curse, too. We know that Imperio CAN BE FAUGHT.

Cruciatius Curse may be done, too, but when we are showed it being fought, it seemed alittle different. When Harry said the incantation, crucio, it was at Bellatrix Lestrange, and it lasted little more than a second. One scream. It can last much longer, infact so long, that people can go mad. The both can be fought, but it is all with the mind.

Imperius Curse is described as pleasant, and the Cruciatus Curse is described as a thousand white hot needles going through every inch of the body, right? But nobody knows how the Killing Curse feels, because no one has lived to tell about it.

Except, ofcourse, Harry James Potter. He only remembers screams and flashes of green light.

Can it be fought?

Not without many many precautions and transformations. Voldemort made Horcruxes, and I'm sure other things helped him, and Harry's mother died to save him, old magic that not even Voldemort would've guessed would occur. There is no spell, charm, or incantation, that can save you.All you can do is use those to help you preform transformations and things along those lines. But by doing this, you have destroyed your body. When the curse rebounded upon it's conjurer, his body was gone, he was less than the merest ghost.


  #36  
Old January 11th, 2006, 2:16 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewchilders
So the argument that Dumbledore did or didn't die is up in the air. Both sides have thier respective arguments full of facts and theories to back them up. So there is no point in delving into it again. My question is however.. is it possible that either through Dumbledore's death or through Snapes possible future in the 7th book. Could Harry find or 'invent' (possibly with Snapes help) a counter curse to Avada Kadavra.

Let us share what we know. We know that there is no known counter to Avada Kadavra. Why is this? I think alot of readers took for granted that no wizard even the really great wizards could come up with one because Avada Kadavra was one of the darkest forms of magic.. so dark that it didn't actually have a counter curse. However I prefer a more simple realization. There is no counter curse because no one would be dumb enough to actually test it out. For example I don't think we'd See Fred and using the Avada Kadavra Curse on George because they are trying to invent a blocking spell. You'd have to know it worked to actually attempt it.

Or perhaps it might take something else to create a spell. Using Dumbledore's 'death' as an example.. perhaps his death was used to create a counter curse to Avada Kadavra. Much like Lilly's death protected Harry. Perhaps Dumbledore's death created a spell. As I write this I almost think it might be stretching a bit but then again we don't know how spells are invented. We also know that Snape did invent spells. What is involved? Are the spells already there for Wizards to use.. they just have to have the right combinations of words.. or does it take something more. Willpower, a sacrifice, a death.. what?

Allow me even to go further. We know that Snape created spells when he was in school. Sectum Sempera for example. We also know that Dumbledore and Snape argued over something.. something that Snape was finding hard to continue. We also have Dumbledore pleading with Snape just before Snape used Avada Kadavra. Could it be possible in fact.. Dumbledore ordered Snape to work on a Counter-curse to Avada Kadavra. Snape was having troubles with it and was having a hard time keeping on task.. which is the reason for the argument. During the Dumbledore 'death' scene perhaps in that moment that people say Snape and Dumbledore communicated mentally that Snape communicated the Counter-curse to Dumbledore. Perhaps it was not Snape who used a non-verbal spell but Dumbledore himself.

Of course we won't know until book 7 comes out but I would like to know what others think. You may disagree with the above theory but perhaps you see something else to the idea that a counter-curse could be invented in Book 7. Or perhaps Dumbledore's name itself becomes a powerful spell..

M-
I have 3 things to say:
1) I think the reason why no one has developed a countercurse is no good wizard that is powerful enough to do so would use the spell on anything, spiced or ant or anything else.

2) I also think that there is NO possible way to block **, but maby a way to deflect it. Maby you can it the ** with another spell, causing it to go off course. As we have seen in book 4 when harry and malfoy try to curse each other, when the spells hit each other, they bounced in weird directions, hitting Crabb(?) and Hermione. Maby you could do this with **.

3) I dont think the ** used by snape killed doumbledore. We have seen on countless occasions where when ** is used and it kills, there is a flash of green light and a rushing sound. Whenever it misses, is intercepted, or hits somthing it cant kill, that what it does. When snape used ** on Doumbledore, it was a jet of green light. However that jet hit Doumbledore square in the chest. Therefor we know it didnt miss, hit somthing it cant kill, or was intercepted. HOWEVER, maby, if snape was under doumbledore's orders, and was reluctant to preform the curse. As we know, you have to mean onforgivable curses. I dont think Snapes ** killed doumbledore.
MABY, this was the plan all along. Doumbledore knew that snape couldnt mean it, and knew that it wouldnt kill him. However, I think this plan would have been based on Doumbledore not falling off the edge or haveing somthing to stop himself with, like his wand. Maby the pleeding was trying to tell snape that he DIDNT have his wand, and didnt want him to know him off.
I am a firm beleiver that Snape's ** didnt kill Doumbledore, but maby the fall did.

I still dont know what to think, weather doumbledore is dead or not, I guess we'll find out soon eough!


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  #37  
Old January 11th, 2006, 3:30 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

no spell can reawaken the dead. i doubt its even possible to make one.


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"Probably that you're going to be eaten by a giant marshmallow or something," said Harry, turning the pages of The Dream Oracle without interest.
  #38  
Old January 11th, 2006, 3:40 am
NoNameLeft  Undisclosed.gif NoNameLeft is offline
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordovich
Dumbledore's dead. The book clearly states that he's gone. The curse on Harry lifted, a Dumbledore painting appeared in the Headmaster's office and Fawkes left. Oh, and then it's the fact that they buried Dumbledore's body, which wouldn't be the case if he'd survived. So, I'm fairly certain that Dumbledore is gone, even though I'd hope he wasn't.
Fawkes left hogwarts - Dumbledore asked her to go whatever he was.
Headmaster's office picture - The most powerful wizard of the age cant make a picture of himself? That would be really dumb.



edit= BeamSlayer - Dont wanna be rude, but maby is spelled maybe. Also, I've thought ** meant Dumbledore, not AV (avada kedavra).


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  #39  
Old January 11th, 2006, 12:00 pm
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

I'm personally of the opinion that a powerful patronus, made from a memory of love, would stop an Avada Kedavra. A patronus embodies the emotions in a memory, and love was what stopped the curse last time. It might even reflect the curse back with a powerful enough memory.
Another option, for those who don't like this idea, is to conjure something solid in the way of the curse, similar to what Voldemort did to stop Dumbledore's spell in the Ministry of Magic. And if Avada Kedavra isn't stopped by a shield you could conjure a bird in the way instead. Hermione's canaries may be redeem themselves yet


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  #40  
Old March 16th, 2006, 4:19 am
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Re: Avada Kadavra- A Counter Curse?

A PATRONUS MADE FROM THE MEMORY of LOVE, I like that idea. But I think blocking the Avada Kedavra would mean a lot! It would be very difficult. Blocking it is possible, but repelling it or stopping it would be "frozen-hell"


 
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