Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v3

[runitsandrew]

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Originally Posted by Tarragon Did anyone ever stop to think that Snape did not kill Harry in book five or book six for the same reason none of the Death Eaters killed him as he was escaping the graveyard in the fourth book? The Dark Lord told them not to. Remember, Voldemort strictly believes in the prophesy; that he is the one who has to kill Harry because "one must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives." And Snape said in Spinner's End that you do not defy the Dark Lord, for his word is law. So there you go. Make of it what you will. Originally Posted by Awiana Dumbledore would very likely do something about that, but the impression I got from their discussion that Dumbledore was telling Snape to do something he didn’t want. If they were talking about Snape not wanting to give information to Dumbledore anymore, I just think that Snape would be incredibly stupid to let Dumbledore know that he isn’t on his side and doesn’t want to give him information about Voldemort. If Snape is loyal to Voldemort, he has to pretend that he is loyal to Dumbledore, and therefore telling Dumbledore that he doesn’t want to be his spy anymore isn’t very clever. I just don’t really understand the idea that they were talking about Snape’s spying duties, so I think they were talking about something else. My guess would be the Vow, but it could be something else too. The whole curse on the DADA position is really confusing, I don't think we know for sure how it actually works, and how much Dumbledore knows about that. But I do think that Dumbledore would want the students to study DADA, even if they have a different teacher every year, if that’s the only option. Originally Posted by ronhermy Wow, that's a great point that I never thought about. Great! Originally Posted by marcko90000 Fair enough. Well I for one am glad someone else has doubts about this whole "curse" idea. Nice of you to understand what I'm saying.

Go ahead and continue discussion.

[sqizzer]

Golly - we're already on to the third version and no closer to a clear cut verdict than the day it started

I am for Good!Snape as I believe his intensions good however screwed up his actions may seem

I wanted to address the whole curse of the DADA post thingy. The fact that some say Dumbledore may have eventually given Snape the post, thus knowing that he would be gone by the year's end. Now we know for a fact that the post is cursed and no teacher has remained in the position for more than a year - Dumbledore says this. I was wondering whether the rumor of Snape's desire for the post was just a rumor.

Let me explain... Maybe the rumor started and was never squashed because it helped Snape's "dark position" as a spy for Voldemort. It seems to me that the speculation surrounding Snape's desire for the position painted him perfectly in the eyes of everyone watching. It would appear that Dumbledore was suspicious of him being in that position, and that keeping him from the post would keep him from old tendencies. Even though Snape wasn't sure of Voldemort's survival status, but we know that Dumbledore suspected Voldemort to be alive in one way or another. We also know, now more than ever, that Dumbledore trusted Snape completely. This trust, it would seem to me, was obtained when Snape jumped ship, ie. before he was given a position at the school.

Still follow? So we know Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, and so would therefore not need to worry about Snape falling into old habits because of the DADA post. Dumbledore suspected Voldemort's survival, and suspected that someday he would return, and so therefore that someday it would matter what Snape had done in the time that had elapsed. So it makes sense to me that if Snape would return as a Death Eater (as a double agent for the Order), it would be necessary to have a history tainted enough to be taken back. So if the rumor of Snape wanting a position that was denied year after year because Dumbledore didn't trust him enough to remain good within it, was not squashed, and as all rumors do, would grow. A good thing for proof to those who would be watching or asking questions later on ie. Bellatrix in Spinner's End. She thought it a crude excuse and though it may have been that, it was still a good way to prove to the necessary people that Dumbledore never truely trusted him (we know better ).

Also, Dumbledore suspected the position to be cursed and I assume that Snape would have suspected it too. Year after year he saw new teachers filling the post, I think he was smart enough to have figured it out. If this is true, then why would he want the position knowing that he would have to leave after a year? He was not sure that Voldemort would return, and Dumbledore seemed his only ally at the time. Why would he jeopordize that? Giving Snape the position in HBP seems to me a move thought out by Dumbledore (and maybe Snape too) knowing that Snape would leave at the end of the year, but maybe giving him a perfect IN back into the trust of Voldemort in light of the Unbreakable Vow etc. before the start of the school term.

Snape seemed more of a POTIONS fundi (in light of the new book) than a DADA fanatic to me, and I have no specific reason to see it otherwise.

Feel free to slice, splice, dice or tear this apart

Sqizz

[Awiana]

Originally Posted by sqizzer

I was wondering whether the rumor of Snape's desire for the post was just a rumor.

That’s exactly what I think. Maybe he would have preferred to teach DADA, because then he wouldn’t have to worry about incompetent students melting their cauldrons and causing havoc in class, but I think it was mostly just a clever act. He can use Dumbledore’s refusal to let him teach DADA as proof that Dumbledore doesn’t trust him entirely, and that’s highly useful when he needs to pretend to be loyal to Voldemort.

[padfootandme]

I am torn. I agree that Snape could could be good because the liquid that Dumbledore drank could have been poison or some other uncurable liquid. In that case, it would have been better to just have a quick death, which Snape provided him. However, Dumbledore might have had a chance of survival, and Snape just killed him like that. Plus, Dumbledore always trusted Snape, but we don't have any reason of why. It's hard to make a decision of Snape being good vs. evil until we have all the information.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! (and Happy Hanukkah!)

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by sqizzer

Golly - we're already on to the third version and no closer to a clear cut verdict than the day it started

I am for Good!Snape as I believe his intensions good however screwed up his actions may seem

I wanted to address the whole curse of the DADA post thingy. The fact that some say Dumbledore may have eventually given Snape the post, thus knowing that he would be gone by the year's end. Now we know for a fact that the post is cursed and no teacher has remained in the position for more than a year - Dumbledore says this. I was wondering whether the rumor of Snape's desire for the post was just a rumor.

During Umbridge's inspection of Snape (OoftheP, pgs. 363-64 US trade ppbk) she asks about the DADA post and he does admit to applying for it every year. Although this doesn't necessarily mean he [u]really[u] wanted it, I think it is a strong inference that he did.

Snape's Witch
who believes Snape's good, nasty and mean-tempered, but still true to the Light

[grocho]

dumby wasnt pleading for his life with snape, he knew he was gonna die, he was pleading not to blow snapes cover as a double agent

[DrAcOs_HuN]

I hate Snape...sorry i just wanted to stop by and say that. I don't think he's good. I think he's evil and stupid and ugly and evil and evil! GR! maybe there is some good in him at the bottom of his cold black heart.

[laluna]

I think he is still a good guy, Dumbledore trusted him, and i am sure for good reason. He must have been really truthworthy towards Dumbledore otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't have defended him so sternly when Harry mentioned his suspects against Snape in front of him. I am sure that Snape wanted to give him hints when he was fleeing. I think he was hurt when Harry called him a coward. I guess he was acting on **'s order (why those arguements in the forbidden forrest which Hagrid accidently heard...). Obviously Snape didn't want to do it anymore or refused to kill Dumbledore when necessary. When Snape entered the scene on the tower he checked the scene within seconds. His first glance went to Dumbledore (did Dumbledore give him instructions?). When realising the situation his face showed revulsion and hatred. He had to do it, but didn't want to. He had to do it, because he made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa, he would have died if he hadn't done it. Draco, the ugly git, couldn't do it. And he had to do it, to proceed with his double agent job.

But i highly doubt that Voldemort doesn't know about Snape's true loyalities. I think he is the one, who left him forever, and Voldemort knows that. I think he will die for Harry in the 7th book to rescue him.

[pensievepeter]

I haven't made my mind up as to whether Snape is good or not in the first six books. This will sound strange, I think it's irrelevant either way you look at it.

If he is good, he will help set up Harry's final confronation with Voldemort in such a way that Harry will win.

If he is evil, I think he will have to redeem himself. Their's a soft side to Snape if you ask me. And even if you don't agree, he still has to repay his life debt to Harry somehow.

So, in conclusion, I don't really know whether or not Snape is good or evil leaving the sixth book, except that by the end of the seventh, he will be good.

[weaselbee]

I may be an optimist, but I still believe Snape has some good in him. This is, at least, what I want to believe. He can't be entirely evil, can he?
When Dumbledore plead's to him ("Severus.. Please..."), could he be pleading for his own death? So he would be doing according to Dumbledore's wishes. Maybe they had talked about it earlier or something. I'm sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm rather new here so I'm not all that aware about what has been going on in these threads. Maybe I should have gone and read them, yet here I am posting this. Sorry again.

[sqizzer]

On the ever so often quoted conversation (argument) between Dumbledore & Snape overheard by Hagrid...

True to form, JKR probably put it in there as a completely misunderstood conversation (very selective wording - as usual) to get us going on a path taking us further away from the truth. You'll probably find that it will obviously play an important part in some form or another in book 7, but not come close to the completely disillusioned mountain we've made out of a mole-hill.

It definately is a most deliciously gripping piece of non-information for us to sink our teeth into about what could make Snape challenge Dumbledore, and furthermore, what could be so important that Dumbledore would become blunt about duty?

Maybe the whole secret behind the conversation, would be to weed out what Dumbledore could possibly take for granted, and then start building a new mountain from there?

Just a thought
Sqizz

[Psithe]

I think the main reason I'd like to believe Snape is good is out of respect to Dumbledore. If he's evil then Dumbledore, a great, wise, kind, gentle, powerful wizard will have been getting played for a fool for years. I know Dumbledore admited to making mistakes, but such a monumental one taints how I see his character. I think I could accept Snape being evil, but not quite come to terms with him outwitting Dumbledore for 17 years. Doesn't feel right. Knocks him off the pedastal.

[pensievepeter]

Originally Posted by sqizzer

On the ever so often quoted conversation (argument) between Dumbledore & Snape overheard by Hagrid...

True to form, JKR probably put it in there as a completely misunderstood conversation (very selective wording - as usual) to get us going on a path taking us further away from the truth. You'll probably find that it will obviously play an important part in some form or another in book 7, but not come close to the completely disillusioned mountain we've made out of a mole-hill.

It definately is a most deliciously gripping piece of non-information for us to sink our teeth into about what could make Snape challenge Dumbledore, and furthermore, what could be so important that Dumbledore would become blunt about duty?

Maybe the whole secret behind the conversation, would be to weed out what Dumbledore could possibly take for granted, and then start building a new mountain from there?

Just a thought
Sqizz

I agree, I think she purposely given us a little scent to lead us of the trail.

It will obviously have bearing on Book 7, but how much and where. Will it help the final Confrontation or the premise to know exactly what was said?

I think it would be smartest to start very general and gradually get more and more specific as we go on, its the only way to figure out what was said and what impact it will have.

[Capt_Obvious]

Originally Posted by sqizzer

I wanted to address the whole curse of the DADA post thingy. The fact that some say Dumbledore may have eventually given Snape the post, thus knowing that he would be gone by the year's end. Now we know for a fact that the post is cursed and no teacher has remained in the position for more than a year - Dumbledore says this. I was wondering whether the rumor of Snape's desire for the post was just a rumor.

...

Snape seemed more of a POTIONS fundi (in light of the new book) than a DADA fanatic to me, and I have no specific reason to see it otherwise.

Feel free to slice, splice, dice or tear this apart

Sqizz

I think you have a problem with this theory when you consider everything we learn in Snape's Worst Memory about his interest in the Dark Arts when he was young. You could chalk that up to being very academic and argue he was that way in all his classes, but if I remember right there were several lines about how Snape had a particular interest in the Dark Arts, which is distinguishable from Potions being that they're different classes.

[sqizzer]

By no means am I saying that he was not that interested in the darks arts, indeed I do think that he found it very intriguing. I think too that he would have been quite Hermione-ish in his approach to magic at Hogwarts in general, absorbing everything that he could.

I too thought that he was DA DA DA DA since the beginning of the series, but my opinion changed with HBP. As obsessive as he may have seemed about DA in the memory (which granted is only a snippet), reviewing all the information Harry saw in the book during his last year, it seems that Snape had a knack for potions coupled with an obsession to fix, tweak, and conjure up all sorts of things. In order to do this he must have been a bit obsessed, and had obviously spent an unimaginable amount of time testing, retesting, fixing and tweaking everything in the book to have come up with what he did. My view is that it was done only in one year (as they get new textbooks every year), and that if he had spent time working on the book after that year, it might have been important enough to move it from the locker and not leave it there for some student to use when an extra book was needed.

But I could be wrong

[Selene Sedai]

When Voldemort spoke about the 'one who has left him forever.' i at first thought that he was talking about his muggle father Tom Riddle...but maybe i need to reread it again...

[random_musing]

Originally Posted by DrAcOs_HuN

I think he's evil and stupid and ugly and evil and evil! GR!

...Wow...I respect your opinion of him being evil (even though I disagree completely) but he is FAR from stupid. He is possibly one of the most clever characters in the book. It doesn't matter what side of the Snape debate you are on, but Snape is certainly not stupid.

Originally Posted by Selene Sedai

When Voldemort spoke about the 'one who has left him forever.' i at first thought that he was talking about his muggle father Tom Riddle...but maybe i need to reread it again...

He was talking about one of the Death Eaters.

[Selene Sedai]

It seemed like it could've been either but i guess not.

[Tarragon]

Originally Posted by Psithe

I think the main reason I'd like to believe Snape is good is out of respect to Dumbledore. If he's evil then Dumbledore, a great, wise, kind, gentle, powerful wizard will have been getting played for a fool for years. I know Dumbledore admited to making mistakes, but such a monumental one taints how I see his character. I think I could accept Snape being evil, but not quite come to terms with him outwitting Dumbledore for 17 years. Doesn't feel right. Knocks him off the pedastal.

This view-your desire for Snape to be good to preserve your vision of Dumbledore-is very interesting to me.

Saying that Dumbledore getting played by Snape for so long knocks him off the pedestal seems an odd statement to me because I never thought of Dumbledore as being on a pedestal. To me, he is a very human character.

After all, he made a huge mistake for five years in not telling Harry about the prophesy because his love for Harry and his desire to see him happy outweighed the good of the wizarding world in his mind. He has shown that his emotions concerning others can have adverse affects on his better judgement. So perhaps his desire to believe that people can change made him blind to possible warning signs of the contrary concerning Snape.

[hermione26591]

I believe that Snape is on the Dark side, because of his past with James Potter...I believe that he had held a grudge against James and that he joined Voldemort to get back at him for what happened when they were at school... i don't think that he means to do what he does, but it's just out of spite that he does...and he was merely following Voldemort's o0rders...another theory is that he was under *** Imperius curse *** whole time, but i don't think that's the case...as i said before, i think it's all to with his past... but i think he'll stay on the dark side, i don't think anyone can persuade him to return to the godd side!