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Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2



 
 
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  #101  
Old January 10th, 2006, 4:08 am
JohnDL  Undisclosed.gif JohnDL is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Rust:
I will now regale you with snippets of the story of Cupid and psyche.
...
Beer is typically made with barely as the malted grain. Mead is made from honey. Two of the major drinks we have come to associate with the bars of the series. This lovely bread with alcoholic inuendo, is used to placate cerebus the three-headed dog. And two coins in her mouth to pay Charon for the journey to the underworld and back.
The myth of Psyche and Cupid was excellent. Many thanks.

Psyche is one of those terms that hover around the idea of "soul" like cats around a can opener...

Mead + Rosmerta, Beer + Aberforth. Placating Cerberus/Fluffy, who is associated more with Aberforth, with honey more associated with Rosmerta. Rosmerta being the Celtic goddess of fire, warmth, abundance, fertility and wealth- and queen of death. Aberforth, related to Charon, Pan, water, the unconscious/underworld. "The Three Broomsticks; the number 3, air, flying, light, noise, fellowship, psychedelics; "Hog's Head," associated with rebellion, slaughter (hoggunott, and the sign shows a decapitated head of a boar), crime, dirt and darkness (and whatever hogs are associated with).

By the way- there is also Rye beer, called Kvass or Kalka. Kvass is an English term, which makes me wonder about butterbeer.

By the other way; the Hand of Glory: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hand.html
Quote:
...The girl lay down for a nap on the longsettle by the fire, but before she shut her eyes she took a good look at the traveler, who was sitting on the opposite side of the hearth, and espied a pair of man's trousers peeping out from under the gown.

All inclination for sleep was now gone; however, with great self-command, she feigned it, closed her eyes, and even began to snore. On this the traveler got up, pulled out of his pocket a dead man's hand, fitted a candle to it, lighted the candle, and passed hand and candle several times before the servant girl's face, saying as he did so: "Let all those who are asleep be asleep, and let those who are awake be awake."


Quote:
Rust:
I took Vane as symbolising a changing in the winds for Ron. It was her spiked potions which led to his being poisoned which led to his newfound maturity.
I see "Romilda" and immediately think "Rome-mildew." But according to a list of baby names, Romilda is a "Teutonic Glorious Battle Maid" (Romilda = Romhilde sim to Brunhilde). There is also a Saint Romilda, whose feast day is March 25 (any correlations?). In Handel's opera Serse, Romilda is the sister of Atalanta (of Alchemical fame...), but this doesn't appear after a brief search to be traceable to Greek mythology.

Excerpted from The Cloud King, by M.G. Lewis:
Quote:
At the Palace of Clouds soon Romilda arrived,
When the Fiend, with a smile which her terrors increased,
Exclaim’d --- “I must warn my three brothers I’m wived,
“And bid them prepare for my wedding the feast.” ---

Than lightning then swifter thrice round did he turn,
Thrice bitterly cursed he the parent of good,
And next in a chafing-dish hasten’d to burn
Three locks of his hair, and three drops of his blood:

And quickly Romilda, with anxious affright,
Hears the tramp of a steed, and beheld at the gate
A youth in white arms --- ‘twas the false Water-Spright,
And behind him his mother, the sorceress, sate.

The youth he was comely, and fair to behold,
The hag was the foulest eye ever survey’d;
Each placed on the table a goblet of gold,
While thus to Romilda the Water-King said.

“Hail, Queen of the Clouds! lo! we bring thee for drink
“The blood of a damsel, both lovely and rich,
“Whom I tempted, and left ‘midst the billows to sink,
“Where she died by the hands of my mother, the witch.

“But see’st thou yon chariot, which speeds from afar?
“The Erl-King with his daughter it brings, while a throng
“Of wood-fiends and succcubi sports round the car,
“And goads on the night-mares that whirl it along.”---

The maid, while her eyes tears of agony pour’d,
Beheld the Erl-King and his daughter draw near:
A charger of silver each placed on the board,
While the fiend of the forests thus greeted her ear.

“With the heart of a warrior, Cloud Queen, for they food,
“The head of a child on thy table we place:
“She spell-struck the knight as he stry’d through the wood;
“I strangled the child in his father’s embrace.”
Much more in the entire poem at the link.


Quote:
Emerald:
"...Sigel resists the forces of death and disintegration, heralding the triumph of light over darkness. Because of this, it is the rune of gaining victory by magical means."
Is this where we get "sigil?"

Quote:
Emerald:
As the Hog's Head is also in Hogsmeade, I wonder if there are any of those nifty underground tunnels leading to it
Have to be!

Quote:
Emerald:
Well, Mundungus is his first name. And according to the name derivation section on MuggleNet it is a type of stinking tobacco. (Here we go again with plant connections.....) His last name is "Fletcher" which, of course, is the person who makes arrows especially useful by attaching the feathers to them for balanced flight with a good spin. Have fun with that combo, people!
"He makes **** arrows."
"He makes the best **** arrows."
"Provides even "heat" to Harry to make him fly straight."
"When noble wine is fed inverted into the tub of Dung, the quintessence flies straight to the top."
"Mix the blood from ' good-natured or angry young men who drink good wines' (Harry) with salt, beat the **** out of Mundungus and mix them all together; distill until you get a 'heavenly savor.'"

If "fletcher" has to do with making arrows fly straight, and Harry is the arrow that needs to fly straight, that's a pointer. The sense I get from the terms is that "the last shall be first;"- lowly hobbits with the ring, etc. What looks worthless is valuable beyond all expectation.

Quote:
Emerald:
Having noted the mentions of the centaur, an association I came to as well, I found it even more interesting that Hermione's error associated the yew tree "death and resurrection" rune with the one for partnership, as expressed by the horse and rider association. The most symbiotic horse/rider combination is the centaur, and the most famous centaur in mythology is the archer, known as both Sagitarrius and Crotus, who uses a true and powerful bow.
Have we ever seen anything between Mundungus and the Centaurs?

Quote:
Doug:
As to Pneuma, Harry is an air spirit, isn't he?
If memory serves (it may not, right now) he's Fire.

Quote:
WeaselDiva:
I am reckoning with the concept of light since JohnDL’s post on Isaiah 14:12. There is quite a bit of scholarly dispute about this little pericope. Christian liberals, Christian fundamentalists, and Jewish scholars are not of one accord.
And never will be. The whole thing irritates me. You have the Vulgate which translates the exact same word in one instance as meaning Satan, the Deceiver, and in another as meaning Christ. Didn't anyone forsee the problems this would cause? This happened in the third century; why wasn't it fixed? Didn't anyone think it very odd to call the "Prince of Darkness" "Light-bringer"??? Maps and territories in riotus confusion- indeed. The Church has always been its own worst enemy.

Quote:
WeaselDiva:
Also, Voldemort may think that Ginny may know him a bit too well due to her diary experience. He may want to pick her brain about his horcruxed self.
As we discuss this, I'm thinking more and more that Voldemort found out something during his possession of Harry- probably that Harry has a piece if V inside him. Voldemort immediately begins occlumency against Harry, there's no trace of V in Harry's thoughts the rest of OotP from the end of the posession. Dumbledore seems to have picked up on it immediately as well; did he put 2+2 together with his earlier speculations? IN HBP he feels free to tell Harry all sorts of things Voldemort shouldn't know, somehow knowing Voldemort will not take a chance to look into Harry's mind.

Quote:
Doug:
Hermione, Ron, Harry. Reason and appetite united. The three parts Mind Body Spirit, fairly commonly known.
Reason, Appetite, Will; or, Emotion? The active principle.


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  #102  
Old January 10th, 2006, 4:21 am
Emerald63  Female.gif Emerald63 is offline
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Posts: 512
Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

OK, this is getting scary/cool. Waaay too many ideas I came to independently before seeing they'd already been brought up!!! (Rust, you will also remember a similar pairing of scary/cool in the story of my dorm days I related to you privately.) Maybe I need to risk brain sprain after all and read all these durned posts before commenting anymore.................

Naaaah.... don't have that much patience. Sorry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
The death and rebirth is because Yew was used in older European shamanic and magical systems as an entheogen.
Score! Ummm.... so to speak.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I am unsure as to whether I have ever heard 'the bee's knees" before. But I think I really like it lol. *edited after I typed the rest of the post* the more I think about it the more I think yoyu should follow with something about a map of the London Underground
Oh Bravo, Rust. The placement of Dumbledore's scar being on the "bee's knee(s)"! Anyone know if that expression is used at all by the British? If so, JKR might once again have been giving us a very offhand, obscure, but meaningful clue. (Here's a thought.... a novel/play in which Sherlock Holmes attempts to decipher all of JKR's clues.)


Concerning maggots in HP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Danke. I keep wanting to think there is other stuff too. It will drive me mad I am sure.
The latest scientific news says from Rick Maizels at the University of.... Edinburgh.... shows that parasitic worms (same ookiness factor as maggots, hence the mental association) prompt their hosts to produce "regulatory T" cells that help calm the immune system, thus reducing the frequency and severity of both asthma and allergies (of which I have more than enough that make life hell, thank you). There is hope researchers can isolate the molecule the worms use to cause this so that it can be synthesized. It may also prove helpful in keeping Type I diabetes in check, as it is the result of an immune system miscue.

Just wanted to keep up my end of the "weird" part of the discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I do believe Eihwaz is shaped quite a bit like the scar (very much so) but I think one of the two common forms of Sowilo is shaped even more like it. The first graphic here shows that common form (the other form has a brance the opposite direction on the bottom so that it looks like a toppled w)
<As the "Twilight Zone" theme song rises in the background.....>
Ummm... you can forget my request to post an image of Sowilo in order to prove "my" point about the likeness to the scar.

A peace offering to all though.... some truly amazing, imho, connections vis a vis runes.

Ever notice that the ID sign Sirius holds in his Azkaban mugshot includes the runic symbols for Perthro (P) and Elhaz (Z)? Even though this image is from a HP movie, I'm thinking either the props master simply had to have a serious understanding of runes or he/she got some highly purposeful input from JKR. Perhaps you've moved on from the runic discussion, but get ready for some very cool additions I've come across! I hope you'll enjoy them.

BTW, according to my best source, "Runelore" by Edred Thorsson, the term "runes" refers to the magickal, spiritual, independent energies of the concepts behind the visiual images, or rune-staves. It is the energies that empower the symbols, not the other way around. Given the connection with the divine the Norse felt was possible through the runes, their use and the wisdom they can bring are in a sense shamanic. Therefore, I think they're still appropriate to our thread.

Believe it or not, Perthro and Elhaz not only tie in to Sirius's role/abilities, they also lie smack between Eihwaz and Sowilo in the Elder Futhark. These are the rune-staves for yew (which has a long life, is poisonous, and constitutes Voldemort's wand) and the sun (which is mirrored in form by Harry's scar). To relate all the complex concepts between these four runes most clearly, I will quote from Thorsson. I also recommend referring back to Rust's post of the entire Elder Futhark, #6-page1-V.2, for graphic assists.

Quote:
EIHWAZ (yew)
The EI-rune is the omnipresent center axis of the cosmos - the omphallos of the world - and is the second in the core dyad of the rune row.

This is the vertical axis of the World-Tree, Yggdrasill, the channel along which the cosmic squirrel, Ratatoskr, like an electric arc, spreads discord between the eagle at the summit of the tree and the great serpent, Nidhhoggr, at its roots.

The EI-rune synthesizes extreme opposites - life/death, day/night, winter/summer - in a dynamic way. (See the TH- and D-runes and note the numerical correspondences: 3-13-23.) [TH = Thurisaz (thurs, i.e. giant): pure action, potency, and instinctual "will," directed cosmic force, combo of polar energies projected in a straight line, raw power directed against consciousness of the gods of the Aesir, assimilation of potential energy and kinetic expression, regeneration and fertility; D = Dagaz (day): light of consciousness given by the Odinnic triad to man, synthesis, inspiration, realization that opposites are aspects of a third idea that contains both; Note that Eihwaz, Voldemort's yew rune-stave, is the 13th in the Elder Futhark.This is the same numerical association in the Tarot with Death, i.e. transformation, and directly follows 12, The Hanged Man, which was a bar in the Riddle family's hometown of Little Hangleton]
Whether she knew this much about its associated rune or not, it seems JKR truly did pick the appropriate wood for Voldy's wand. Also, Barmy, take a look at Dagaz and see if it doesn't resemble one of the two Roman numeral tens from the Hendaye monument you referenced here: http://www.sangraal.com/AMET/hendaye.html.

On to Sirius's runes. The second rune-stave pictured in the mug shot ID card, Perthro, actually comes first in the Elder Futhark and thus has to be discussed first, as progression within the Futhark matters.

Quote:
PERTHRO (lot cup) [It's lengthy; I'll quote selectively]
This is the most guarded of the runes. It is the cultic symbol of the secret of orlog [first 'o' has a vertical slash, second has an umlat] - the mystery of wyrd. This is the power of the Nornir [the three Fates] and one that compliments the force of consciousness present in the Aesir...

...Perthro is the cup or framework from which, or into which, the runestaves are cast in divinatory workings. This is a symbol of the Well of Wyrd - of Urdharbrunnr (Well of Urdhar, the first and eldest Norn).

In Perthro we find a synthesis of the laws of cause and effect (x causes y, which sets z in motion) and the laws of synchronicity (x, y, and z occur significantly together). Causality is a law of the horizontal (mechanical) plane, synchronicity of the vertical axis of consciousness. The synthetic element is the psychic dimension of time. This force, in conjunction with that of the N-rune and the B-rune, is the principle agent of change or becoming, in the multiverse. [N = Nauthiz (need): cosmic resistance to the will (a necessity before manifestation can come about), 'need' imposed from outside the consciousness, source of the essence of orlog; B = Berkano (birch): rules the cyclical process of birth, life, death, and rebirth, the "eternal now," symbolized by the magical instrument of the birch rod]
Further explanation covers Perthro's association with the three Norns, which represent "has become," "is becoming," and "should become." It's noted only the first two can be known. The third, or "'future' is a mass of undifferentiated all-potential for becoming." Sounds rather like Sirius's involvement in the time-turner incident.

The first pictured rune-stave Sirius is shown with, Elhaz, is actually the second in order in the Elder Futhark. Also, it has been inverted, an acceptable alternative and also a stave in its own right in the Younger Futhark. But a side definition is in order before I continue with Elhaz.

A "fetch" is a "following spirit," and comes in three varieties, the human, animal and geometric. "The animal-shaped fetch is usually in a form that corresponds to the character of the person to whom it is attached... It can be separated from the vitki as a magical act. The vitki may also project his conscious will into the fetch in order to carry out magical workings." Unfortunately, Thorssen's book, while featuring numerous charts, a pronunciation guide, and a limited glossary, lacks an index. Not being able to find it defined, I assume the term "vitki" refers to the magical person who is aware of and purposefully uses his fetch. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you can see that the fetch concept can be associated with Sirius's animagus ability, hence its presence in his mug shot. But it might also be associated with the ability to cast a patronus. A further quote makes for an interesting, and perhaps worrisome, connection for Harry. "The [fetch] is the repository of all the actions of the persons to whom the entity was previously attached. It can be the source of great power but also of tremendous responsibilities and even hardships. This entity is the storehouse of orlog - it can protect and it can doom..." If James, former owner of the stag association, had any dark secrets or magical debts in his past, they are now very intimately associated with Harry, not just as his son but as the inheritor of his fetch.

Quote:
ELHAZ (elk)
Elhaz is the divine link between a man and his fetch. The Z-rune describes the power of attraction between the mind of man and its psychic counterpart, the "divine self." This force of attraction works together with the mystery of Sowilo [Harry's scar shape!] to generate the magical will....

The stave also describes the rainbow bridge, Bifrost, a symbol of the link between Midhgardhr [the earthly plane] and the realms above and below.

In the Z-rune we see the force of protection that can come only with a linkage with the "personal divinity." This is the entity that the Greeks knew as the daimon and the Romans called the genius. In Runelore the fetch is the source of this inspiration as the most direct link between the individual and the ultimate source of inspiration, Odhinn.

The image of the stave is one of the most potent in Germanic symbology. It indicates the splayed hand ( = protection, humanity), the horns of the solar hart [aka the stag] lifted to the heavens in pride and potency, the swan in flight [Cho Chang's patronus is a swan], and the Germanic arm posture for prayer and invocation. Some of this makes clear why this form was eventually used for the younger [futhark] "man"-stave.

The loading with magical, numinous, or spiritual force effected through this rune implies a person or place with so much force that it becomes sacred, set apart and protected by divine power.

Also, there is a natural, underlying connection between this rune and the Eihwaz, the yew-stave. this is expressed in many ways; most graphic is the formal relationship. The probable original stave-form was [an image with splayed tines at both top and bottom of a vertical line. The stave with downward pointing tines] became the younger [futhark] yew-stave (which is an alternate form of the elder [futhark] Elhaz as well.
Interestingly, the inverted form was used in the Armanen Futhork to mean "woman" and all things negative in humans ("man" meant all things positive). Again, yew is associated across various futharks with negativity, or at least with polar opposites.

In essence, I see the Perthro and Elhaz runes associated with Sirius because they imply both "becoming" and one's "fetch," or spiritual animal counterpart, and therefore the tremendous, divinely-associated magical ability needed to master the animagus transformation. Their presence on his mug shot ID cannot have been coincidental, regardless of who chose them!!!

Quote:
SOWILO (sun)
The sun is the guiding beacon on the roads of becoming. It is the light of consciousness - and its pattern, which stands in the objective universe for all those who seek to transform themselves to see. The archetypical sun, and its counterpart the "night sun" ( = the Pleiades), guide the "seafarer" from one zone of consciousness to another, from one "land" to another. This is the goal that gives motivation to the will. In skylore this is "the star" of the elliptic (the Pleiades), which at night travels the same path as the sun does by day.

In ancient Nordic symbolism the sun is seen as a wheel or as a shield. That is, it has transformative and protective, nurturing aspects. As a wheel, Sowilo is a sign of the wheels along the path of the yew column, Yggdrasill, by which the runester consciously evolves. Sowilo is the shield of the consciousness and provides it with greater significance toward which to strive. One who has developed the will by the light of the S-rune (in all of its aspects) is blessed with honor and success.

The sun describes a counterbalance to the power of the rune Isa (ice). In the row [the second Aett of the Elder Futhark], however, both are necessary to a stable whole development of the world and of the runester. The S-rune also has been connected with the serpentine mysteries of the north, which involve the centers at which flows of heavenly and cthonic forces converge at a point on the surface of the earth. The power of Sowilo breaks down psychological or cosmic inertia and transforms it into a vital, dynamic force.
Wow. Simply wow. We started off with Voldemort's rune-stave, led through the two pictured oh-so-briefly with Sirius, and ended with Harry's. The progression involves the Norse axis mundi of the World-Tree, Harry/Sowilo as a transformative agent for Voldemort/Eihwaz, and with Sirius/Perthro-Elhaz as an intermediary agent between the two. Might this have already happened in PoA when Sirius's escape connected Harry to Peter Pettigrew and thus to Voldemort, and possibly the life debt Peter owes him? I also noted, Barmy, yet another item reminiscent of the Hendaye monument... "the serpentine mysteries of the north." And the whole process/progression from Voldemort on up through Harry also fits right in, again, with your scenario of Voldemort as shamanic/alchemical initiate and Harry as the process through which he will reach resolution/enlightenment.

I'm seeing one of two things here...... either JKR is unbelievably, incredibly knowledgable about all things esoteric, or she is one hell of a conduit for the Powers That Be to funnel together all these different but oh-so-similar philosophies and cosmologies!!!

To all, let me know any thoughts you have on this. I found it fascinating in the extreme.

But I'm off to try to wade through more than one offering before I make another of my own. Well, at least two, I hope.


EDIT: Sorry..... again. No can do. <hangs head in shame>


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
the Living ECK Master
OK, just a teensy comment here..... There's a car dealership down in Wichita owned by a guy named (NO KIDDING!) Rusty Eck...... there's that durned Twilight Zone theme again!



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
An understandable explanation of hologram theory from Crystalinks: http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html
Fascinating reading, John, thank you for the excerpts. They reminded me of explanations or foundations for several concepts:

- "Subspace radio" communication discussed in numerous sci-fi works
- ESP and pregognition (as you later mentioned)
- that we are 3D beings existing in a 10D universe
- perhaps "true" existance is rather like a Mobius Strip through both time and space


Concerning the Schumann resononce:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
There is a palpable difference between the "feel" you get miles offshore in the ocean, versus near to land or in a river in a rural area, versus the "feel" of a city.
As knowledgable as you are, you've likely considered this before, but what about the differences in levels of ions in the atmostphere is these different areas? I've heard one theory as to why so many people feel peaceful near waterfalls - they generate a great deal of atmospheric ionic activity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
The "official" Schumann resonance is 7.83 HZ, measured years ago, but making the same measurements today gets you about 12 HZ. The change almost certainly is the result of human activity; call it pollution if you'd like.

The basic theory of the resonance is that the human mind is attuned to the Schumann resonance, and that a mind in resonance (rather than at the usual waking HZ of 20) is thereby in communication with the Earth.....

For me, 7.83 is a little less controllable than the usual Alpha of 10, spacier, more open to creative imagery, as it picks up some Theta characteristics.

I found the binary beats to be very helpful in teaching me what it felt like to meditate or concentrate deeply, what the the transition from a Theta hypnagogic state to Delta felt like, and the general feel of moving through the layers. I found that after a few months using them that I no longer needed them, but could produce the states without too much difficuty.
I really don't know anything about all this, but it seems logical that there is some connection to the trance abilities of Yogis, who can lower their heartbeats to a mere 3-4 beats per minute, can endure what others would consider unbearable pain, and may even be able to levitate. Perhaps they have found their way back to 7.83 HZ or an even lower, subatomic resonance frequency. It would also seem logical that shamans are doing the same thing while journeying and healing.



Concerning the Seven Seals and the Four Horsemen:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
My main curiousity was in the fact that the angels seem to reflect the alchemical stages and that what each angel brings is similar to a given stage.
Just last night a friend acquainted me with the lyrics to a Kate Bush song from her album "Red Shoes." Sorry I can't remember them verbatim nor the song's title. The lyrics concern Lilith and calling on the four Archangels as one would the Guardians of the four quarters while casting a circle of protection that uses fire and salt. My friend also clued me in to one meaning of the album title - there's an old fairy tale about a cursed pair of shoes that, once donned, keep the wearer dancing constantly, without relief. That also reminded me of the fellow in line at the information desk in St. Mungo's during Harry and the Weasleys' visit after the snake attack. He had the same affliction.


Concerning Barmy's theory on connections between magick and music:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Part of what makes magick is in the combinations of all the little symbols and concepts behind each ingredient, each vocalising, each written letter. The shamanic and even magical languages are languages of symbolism where even a gesture has meaning. Not sure how this plays into your idea on magick, but it certainly gives one a lot to think on.
So if gestures are so important, I suppose an orchestra conductor is on a par with Merlin, no?



Oh so many cool connections with you as well, WeasleDiva!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
Whizbang's rune theory was great except that Rowling said the shape of the scar is not the important aspect to focus on. Up until then, that was one of the best theories on the market.
When looking at the highly mystical aspects of a rune, one is supposed to remember that the physical form of the rune-stave representing it is also secondary to the concept and magical power it encompasses. The progression of concepts from Eihwaz through Perthro, Elhaz, and Sowilo I discussed would be the "important aspect to focus on," rather that the scar's shape, if indeed JKR is at all knowledgable about runes in general, as it seems she may be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
The third-eye chakra is near the pineal gland, the seat of the soul per some folk. The maggot on Harry near that area, Harry's eyebrow turning yellow, Ron's eyebrow being splinched off, all point to the area near where the scar is.
Interesting connection with the colored stone associations I quoted recently. Yellow, the Hufflepuff house color as well as Harry's eyebrow, is also associated with the third-eye chakra and improving one's force of will. Handy for both apparation and Harry's destiny.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
Many of the shippers have played around with the runes as clues specific to partnership and romance. *Cough* as if romance is the only form of love that counts *Cough*
Agreed on the multiple meanings of love.

Although.... juniper being mistaken for yew, juniper's rune=scar shape, and Harry being so closely associated with both Ginny and Voldemort is intriguing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishFaerie
I just wanted to say "congrats!" to everyone for making it to version two!
Hi IrishFaerie!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
Heckte's sacred tree of death is said to root in the mouths of the dead and release their souls, and also absorbs the odors of death itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishFaerie
This seems dementor-y. Hmm, releasing souls though? Maybe a reverse dementor?
Have you read the latest Underground Lake article at MuggleNet? Brandon Ford speculates there is a "reverse horcrux" effect that could account for Lily's sacrifice putting part of Voldemort's soul into Harry and/or the scar. Wonder if their might be opposites/dualities for most of what's in the books.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
There's another important practice I don't think we've discussed yet, and that is the most common shamanic method, world-wide, of initiating contact with the Other- applied stress. By deliberately stressing the body and/or mind and/or emotions, the conection with the mundane is weakened and the ability to cross over is either gained or strengthened....
I was struck by the similarity of this purposeful process with the instinctive one applied by individuals with serious mental health issues, usually from having lived through severe abuse. That process involves intentionally mutilating oneself, either through cutting, burning, chewing, etc. I've heard an abuse survivor describe how cutting herself was in a sense a way of focusing on something intensely physically painful enough to help her remove her conscious thoughts from the pervasive and emotionally painful memories of abuse. The act has a calming effect rather than a stress inducing one. Perhaps she, and others who do this, are getting some sort of connection to the spirit realm?

A fascinating notion, one I shall bring up with my therapist as the standard psychiatric goal is to guide patients away from such activities. Given the emotional damage they have already suffered, perhaps they are actually being kept from a resolution of their problems. This of course would presuppose the cutting, etc, did not escalate to a suicidal level. I don't know if this is a typical progression or not. I do know from personal experience, though, that the advice to try and halt hyperventilation during an anxiety attack is counterproductive, at least for me. I find that in some way it alters my blood chemistry, likely by significantly altering blood pH, and after a short time brings on a calming effect not unlike cutting does for others. Trying to halt it merely prolongs my feelings of anxiety. Another example of how the body often knows exactly what it needs, if only we will turn off our brains long enough to listen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
There is one tribe that embarks on a difficult annual trek to use Peyote (Rust?).The walk is a necessary part of the preparation. The Huichol also take a long annual walk to their sacred mountain (hill?) where they engage in a ceremony to renew the Earth (Sun?). More stress.
This reminds me of the annual pilgramage some Irish Catholics take - barefoot or even on their knees - up Chroa Padraig (sp?), or St. Patrick's Mountain. Similar hardship pilgramages exist elsewhere and are said to intensify the sense of spiritual fulfilment.



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Originally Posted by rust_loup
My main curiousity was in the fact that the angels seem to reflect the alchemical stages and that what each angel brings is similar to a given stage.
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
You're seeing something I can't. Only recently there was a post in the alchemy thread about four stages of the process instead of seven. Up until that time I had not given enough thought to it because of the obviousness of seven books. Now I'm paying attention to four.
I was reminded of the four sides of the base in your Hendaye monument article, Barmy, of the four associated Tarot cards being sequential and also of the four runes I discussed being sequential as well. There are the Four Horsemen, the four Archangels, the four Gospels, the four elements, the four Hogwarts houses, the four cardinal directions, the four humours, the four stages of birth-life-death-rebirth that are central to many religions....... Oh, and the fact that "4" is the central balancing point in any series of 7. If you've ever read any of the ideas on how different books in the series may mirror each other, you'll have noted GoF's unique status as a non-mirrored book. Don't know if there's anything in all this, but at the least it's interesting to consider.


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Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
"A mind once expanded to the dimension of larger ideas can never return to its original size."
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Sounds a bit like Boyle's law about gases (Boyle the alchemist) and the hot air found here.
:roftl:


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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
I was wondering whether the splinching could be related to any aspect of spirit travel, leaving the body behind, perhaps. Don't know about that one, but mutilation is a common feature of stories about the esoteric. Beheadings, hangings, loss of limbs and eyes and the like. 'Pathological' imagery was a term I once saw about it. In alchemy there is the torture of metals in making the stone and that was one feature that caused me to think of Harry as the Stone. He has endured all sorts of abuse. So perhaps the perils of apparation are just another aspect of this idea of mutilation which after all occurs during shamanic initiation. Your idea of the scar being splinched off is intriguing, especially if it meant separation of soul and body.
Say.... do you suppose it's possible to apparate into the Otherworld???

Perhaps my comments on self-mutilation helped to explain the 'pathological' imagery term. And I like your concept of Harry as the stone/process because he has been so tortured as well as splinching being part of shamanic initiation.


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
Getting harder and harder to avoid seeing a direct shamanistic influence in the books, isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
When I was all excited about discovering other stories with similar 'Harry Potter' esoteric elements, it too seemed hard to avoid accepting. But the question at the end, as it is here, is how can this be Ms Rowling's intent? How can she have acquired all this esoteric knowledge and incorporated it consciously into a new 'myth'? The unavoidability of what we see points to an author of extraordinary powers but also of an extraordinary background of knowledge and ethos. Big winded way of saying she's awesome.
Two thoughts... first, JohnDL's outline of ideas JKR likely encountered throughout her education was very thorough, so I too find it very possible that she does indeed consciously know and understand concepts from each of the different disciplines. And I agree, Barmy, that if that is the case then she indeed is awesome.

But I am reminded of an archeologist's very simple response to numerous theories of how the ancient Egyptians came to incorporate the value of Pi into their sacred architecture. He discussed the use of a "measuring wheel," an item still used today for marking off parcels of land or determing the area of ones already marked off. It's just a wheel attached to a handle via an axle. The circumference of the wheel is known and one only need keep count of the number of revolutions the wheel turns as it is guided along a particular line to determine the length of that line. Whereas the "out there" theorists had all sorts of complex ideas of how the Egyptians could have come to know and understand the mathematically advanced concept and its supposed relations to the secrets of the cosmos, the archeologist demonstrated that they likely did NOT know of Pi as a mathematical concept but simply, and inadvertantly, transferred its associated physical results by using the circle as a measuring device.

Of course I am no where near as well read on any of the esoteric versions of the disciplines Ms. Rowling may be referring to as Barmy and JohnDL are. So there may well be more to what she has offered than I can recognize. I simply thought there might be a simple explanation for how she seems to have such widespread familiarity with so many intellectual disciplines.

But my point here is that I've always had the strange feeling that maybe, just maybe, JKR is able to seemingly incorporate knowledge from sooo many different disciplines because similar concepts are, to a degree, universal. To speak of the concepts as related to discipline A is to imply some knowledge of discipline B simply because the concepts are shared by both disciplines, whether or not discipline B is specifically known as well or not. That she has seemingly touched on not just two but dozens of disciplines might reflect that the concepts she puts forth are very basic indeed. So basic, that I've also considered the possibility that the Powers That Be themselves want them reiterated in one common mythos that appeals to a very wide audience, one that defies the differences humans have built up between the various disciplines that, ultimately, are so similar. In other words.... perhaps "God" is working through Ms. Rowling.


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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
There was a discussion thread started by someone who argued Ms Rowling was using mind control techniques on readers. My research turned up information saying reading brought the brain out of the passive receptive state, and so using the books for mind control wouldn't work. The posts to the thread were remarkably hostile to the original idea, but it is undeniable that examples of mind control abound. The imperius curse, and legillimency (as hypnotism) are two. And this gets us into disturbing territory.
My guess is that those hostile posters were equating any use of mind control with the more negative aspects of the practice. However, hypnotism can be used beneficially when entered into voluntarily. It can help to break any number of bad habits as well as work through phobias. And just because Jo discusses a concept does not mean she necessarily endorses it. Not having seen the thread, I don't know which position, pro or con, the orginator might have had in mind.



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Originally Posted by JohnDL
I think that's a reasonable statement. She really has moved back in time for her Christian themes; there's little dating from after the middle ages and a lot that goes back to the 2nd to 4th century (Gnostics perhaps, Hermeticists of course). This seems to imply she felt that Christianity took a wrong turn somewhere along the line. I'll suggest offhand the Albigensian (Cathar) genocide (1209 AD) as the possible turning point (the Cathars were Dualists), though it may be a bit early. It's just as likely, given the breadth of her knowledge, that it might be something esoteric instead, for example the execution of Jacques DeMolay (1314 AD). If THAT is true, we have a new kettle of fish, do we not?

It isn't hard to interpret HP as having strong Gnostic influences, though I wouldn't place a bet on it just yet. In some places HP seems Monist, which leaves out a lot of the Gnostics, but in others she seems more Dualistic, which might lead towards Mani (the Manichean Heresy) or Arius (Arian Heresy, elements of which seem common through many US Protestant denominations). I would like to read Meister Eckhardt with an eye towards HP and see if there is any parallelism.
My own studies, which are admittedly very limited, have led me to surmise that the highly esoteric connotations of the Gospels' original Aramaic text indicate that Gnosticism may be the closest thing to a "true" Christianity. It also has much stronger parallels, imo, to multiple belief systems than does the later, orthodox Christianity endorsed by the Roman empire.

These are some of the more noteworthy ideas that do seem to keep cropping up in the HP books. If my grand supposition that the Divine is working through Ms. Rowling has any validity, which of course we cannot prove, then that Divine would seem to be endorsing the older model of Gnostic Christianity as well. (BTW, I've no doubt JKR would be flabbergasted at any suggestion that she is an instrument of the Divine. Nope, that's my stance, not hers.)



Soooo.............. I've caught up on one more page during this one day. Maybe if I keep taking almost entire pages for myself <cringes> it won't be too long before I'm... on the same page with y'all again??? <insert heavily sweating, nervously smiling face here>



Last edited by Emerald63; January 10th, 2006 at 7:07 am.
  #103  
Old January 10th, 2006, 8:36 am
barmy codger's Avatar
barmy codger  Undisclosed.gif barmy codger is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
There is one tribe that embarks on a difficult annual trek to use Peyote (Rust?).The walk is a necessary part of the preparation. The Huichol also take a long annual walk to their sacred mountain (hill?) where they engage in a ceremony to renew the Earth (Sun?). More stress.
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Originally Posted by Emerald63
This reminds me of the annual pilgramage some Irish Catholics take - barefoot or even on their knees - up Chroa Padraig (sp?), or St. Patrick's Mountain. Similar hardship pilgramages exist elsewhere and are said to intensify the sense of spiritual fulfilment.
From the eminent scholar, Shirley MacLaine...http://www.newrenbooks.com/books/stories.html
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The Camino
by Shirley MacLaine
This captivating book chronicles MacLaine's pilgrimage across northern Spain on the scenic 500-mile long Santiago de Compostela Camino. "It is said that the 'Camino' lies directly under the Milky Way and follows ley lines that reflect the energy from those star systems above it...The Santiago Camino has been traversed for thousands of years by saints, sinners, generals, misfits, kings and queens." It is traveled with the intent to find one's true spiritual Self and to find peace within one's self.
I think I read the idea in 'New View Over Atlantis' by John Michell, but it looks like I don't have the book anymore. I can't pass up an opportunity to link micro- and macro- cosms. Cosmic stress may be in the spirit journey and/or may be the breakup at the end of a zodiacal age bringing about the next age.
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Originally Posted by Emerald63
I was reminded of the four sides of the base in your Hendaye monument article, Barmy, of the four associated Tarot cards being sequential and also of the four runes I discussed being sequential as well....
So you looked, too. Thank you. Excellent observations.. But In book 4 we have only three tasks. Comfort is found in there being four champions. Another relevant thing might be the four corners of the earth which c
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/signs.html#P
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[Fixed Signs The Fixed Signs doe in order follow the Equinoctial and Tropicks; and they are called fixed, for that when Sun enters into them, the season of the yeer is fixed, and we doe more evidently perceive either Heat or Cold, Moysture or Drinesse. The fixed Signes are these, Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius.
I'm not sure that's the only factor involved in their being fixed. I read about it in Paul La Violette's (http://www.earthchangestv.com/tvgues...laviolette.htm) 'Earth Under Fire' where I think he also maintained the sphinx combined the four animals of the fixed signs. I'm poor at astrology, but I found a lot of these ideas floated around when reading about the Third Task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Two thoughts... first, JohnDL's outline of ideas JKR likely encountered throughout her education was very thorough, so I too find it very possible that she does indeed consciously know and understand concepts from each of the different disciplines. And I agree, Barmy, that if that is the case then she indeed is awesome.
JohnDL's summary has two virtues: being the first I've seen -and I've posted musings on the question before, and being very plausible. I should have thanked him for that and do so now. Yet it's more than just an immense grasp of material -esoteric material at that. Victor Hugo spent a lot of text saying Notre Dame was the esoteric tradition preserved in stone, and more text saying it had been supplanted by printing. More than just being aware of the traditions and, more importantly, their intent, Ms Rowling seems to be presenting the hidden esoteric message anew. I view the story is her own 'Great Work'.


  #104  
Old January 11th, 2006, 2:57 am
rust_loup  Male.gif rust_loup is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
The chapter title was "The Two-Faced Man." ?! Let's add a few thoughts to the Pensieve: The Mirror of Erised, erised = desire in reverse. Desire is, by many of the ancient definitions I posted earlier, one of the properties of the soul. Desire for power and to cause pain seems to be the fragment of soul Voldemort has left. In book seven, the big reversal: Harry is the two-faced man, most likely? Is Voldemort Harry's mirror- as either desire, or the reverse of desire? Does Harry see (or do we see) his own self, his Shadow, in Voldemort, or the reverse of himself? Is Voldemort "reversed" in some way? Could Voldemort's body and all soul fragments be destroyed, save one in Harry?
This is one of the questions I have been pondering with the Harry being Voldemort's spiritual heir line of questioning. I cannot decide whether it would bind him to this realm like a horcrux meaning Harry would have to get rid of it or venture into the spirit world, or if the soul piece not being technically bound would have no effect over his demise. It is also possible that Voldemort's death would be strong enough to bring the soul shard with it. This would rid Harry of the powers he has gained, but would make him a free and whole being in the process. It could even possibly remove the scar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
In PS Harry gets the Stone out of a mirror that is the reverse of desire, because he desires to save the Stone from being used- so to speak, because he doesn't desire it for himself.

The mirror seems to be the crux of the whole thing. You look into a mirror to see yourself; you examine yourself to refine yourself. True even in triviality, such as putting on makeup. The Wise can look in the mirror's reflection, and reflect on the meaning of what is seen, to eventually become the Stone. What then of the reverse mirror?

"The Reverser" is as I recall a shamanic concept, in some cases a rival or evil shaman who reverses the rightful outcome of a shaman's dealings with the spirit realm.
This plays even more into Harry and Voldemort as opposite ends of the same coin. Or more appropos, mirror images of the same thing. But like yin and yang, each contains the seed of the other.


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
If average post length is the criterion, you founded it!
You have a point.


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
Merci! Of course, the original granum stored in the granea would have been Rye, would it not? Leading us back to ergot, LSD and psychedelics in general. And to Harmine Granger, the pat hand at brewing such potions. 100 years from now, academics are going to be waging bitter battles over whether HP is a manual for personal growth, or an esoteric guide to drug tripping.
Especially if our posts have lingered in some form then. They will think us secret magicians in laboratories making spiritual and pharmaceutical advancements of the mind and soul.




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Originally Posted by Emerald63
How strange.... the highlighted portion reminded me of Jesus's 40 days in the desert, of having to "face" Satan, but having to resist his "unacceptable" temptations in order to return and fulfill his role as Messiah. From "water, water everywhere..." to 40 days in the desert.
This is one of the many shamanic elements found in the Christian Bible, the Spiritual Initiation of Jesus. He begins this initiation by seeing John the Baptist and being baptised. During this we see the holy spirit descend as a dove. Then he leaves for his forty days in the wilderness to be tempted and to fast. So we see him gain a power animal spirit guide and then used the ecstatic technique of fasting. This leads him to a mountain(axis mundi) where he under goes a battle of the wills with a spirit. All very shamanic, and all older than CHristianity. And to me, all fairly fascinating.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Very interesting about the Wolfsbane bit! No wonder D-dore was happy to host Lupin as a faculty member! And considering the "ric" suffix, I'd say Wulfric, as applied to D-dore, would most likely align with the "guiding and guarding his charges" part of your comment.
*hugs his books and notebooks of plant-lore*
I loves my books lol.


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Originally Posted by Emerald63
Can't find the exact spot, but several of you asked about Mundungus's role and the interesting connotations of his nickname. (Suppose it has anything to do with him being ****-faced a lot? ) Someone even asked what his first name is. Well, Mundungus is his first name. And according to the name derivation section on MuggleNet it is a type of stinking tobacco. (Here we go again with plant connections.....) His last name is "Fletcher" which, of course, is the person who makes arrows especially useful by attaching the feathers to them for balanced flight with a good spin. Have fun with that combo, people!

Tobacco, which is a member of the nightshade family, contains harmala a family of MAOI alkaloids including our dear Harmine.

The Fletcher aspect reminds me of the story of the Chinese archer Chi Ch'ang. Though it is more of a simple correlation than anything tried, true, and worthy of being called evidence.

The story goes that Chi Ch'ang became the greatest archer in China under the unusual instruction from master Wei Fei. The method of his training seems to mimic the earlier stages of taking fly agaric. That is introspection, lack of time perception, rare blinking or none at all, and finally with the sizes of objects seeming to distort. All this is among the milder effects of the mushroom.

In the story Chi goes to Wei Fei for instruction and is told he cannot be trained until he learns how not to blink. So Chi goes home and lay on his back under his wife's loom training himself to not blink. After two years not even a spider spinning webs in his eyelashes could cause him to blink. He then went back to Wei Fei who told him he must now "learn to look" and nothing other than that single cryptic message. Chi returned home and spent the next three years starging at an insect on a blade of grass affixed to his study window. At the end of that time he could see every detail of the insect, and the insect itself seem to have become gigantic. He left his home and everything else seemed eqully gigantic, horses seemed mountains and pigs hills. He picked up a bow for the first time in five years and everything seemed so massive that he had no trouble sending a hundred arrows through the same hole of a leaf.

I mention that story as to me it ties Harmine back to Red Cap. Or it could also relate to the centaurs and their future seeing vision, as it relates to their arrows.




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Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ooooh, intriguing! But Harry's blood wasn't the only item used for that new body. The bone of Tom Riddle, Sr. and Wormtail's hand were also used, along with who knows what kind of other ooky ingredients. (Eye of Newt, anyone?) Perhaps the resultant polyjuiced person would look a bit like all of them? Or maybe just like "the" combo - the new and improved Lord Voldemort?

That's why I said the blood in the Polyjuice potion and no other parts. Shamanically, Voldemort is still the parts of his dad, Wormtail, and Harry. He just happens to be what the outcome of those seperate parts are when introduced to his tattered soul to give it its final breath and shape. I find it shamanically significant that Voldemort is currently hairless and that no hair was added to the potion. As I see it, he is an odd sort of meat robot or homonculus. He has all the pieces needed to run but those pieces are still independent things. It is still Harry's blood, it is still Wormtail's flesh, still his dad's blood and the like. But that is just my odd opinion and a bit of my own shamanic viewpoint on what he has become.


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Originally Posted by Emerald63
Hmmm..... I read this out to Mark (my husband for newcomers). He replied, and I quote, "That just runed my whole day." So I told him to, "Rune away, rune away!"


Those were the most horrible puns I have ever heard. I love you guys.


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Originally Posted by Emerald63
Why thank you - that is high praise indeed for those who love to pun. But you know, I actually missed one of two puns it turns out were in my own post! The one on purpose was the "Maenads," but I just realized that in some parts of the country/world there's another one in there - gyro. Lost of people pronounce it "ji-ro" with a long 'i,' but the Greek word is actually pronounced "hero"! Dam, I'm better than I thought I was - hehehe.

Accidental puns do not count *as he tries to find ways to keep his count up*




Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
I sit once a week at a Buddhist temple nearby.
I wish to comment on how lucky I think you are. The nearest Dharma center to here is still rather far away. It is a rare Dharma talk that I am ever fortunate enough to be present at.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
The resident nun, we call her Suco, will give us a small Dharma talk, mostly instruction on the formal structures of the Buddhist cosmology.
This week we touched on some topics relevant to here.
The Potter cosmology overlaps very little, practically not at all with Buddhism. As a Buddhist, there is no soul. Anatman. I'm sure you know of the idea. Anyway, this is interesting.

Buddha has 3 bodies. So do we.

1) Enlightenment body - The dharma body, energy, the radiation body which never dies. Essentially the Universe.

2) Conciousness body - Inside the physical, the everywhere inside, sensation body. This is the body which incarnates according to Karma.

3) Physical body - Made up by the 5 skandas and the 4 elements (water, wind, earth, fire)

With a specific, proper, practice, when you die, Amidha meets you, takes your consciousness, puts it in a vessel and carries it to the Pure Land, leaving the Physical body behind.

Amidha Buddha is the incarnation of Compassionate Wisdom. Love, if you will.

What isn't relevant is that the consciousness can incarnate in an Earthly realm or even go on to the big enlightenment body depending on practice and karma. The Amidha-consciousness-in-a-vessal-idea is just one way

You practice Pure-Land Buddhism? I shall commit this to memory as I am sure it will help me find a common ground in your responses I want to mention for the others that not all Buddhists have cosmology, not all do not believe in soul, nor do all believe in 3 bodies. Some believe in no real bodies, some believe we have an essence which reincarnates, etc.

I would like to make a quick distinction for those not very savvy on Buddhism, as it seems to be hard to grasp in the West. There are many different forms of Buddhism and each interprets the Buddha's words differently. This does not mean any is wrong, it simply means we are all capable of taking forth different lessons from one teaching to better ourselves.


Thought I would bring that up before any posts I may or may not make on Tibetan Buddhism cosmology left everyone twisted and turned around. I do not practice Tibetan, nor Pure-Land. If I had to lay claim to a title I would say Theravada. But as I have never taken the three refuges I will not lay any claim.



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Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Something that makes the Potter series so wonderful is that everyone can find something in the story that catches them. Rowling touches on a lot of discrete cultural continuities. You can search the stories from your own point of view and draw conclusions that confirm it. This both informs and blinds readers. All along, we, all of us, have been thinking Modern Christian Soul. This may indeed be the soul we are dealing with, unless Rowling has been grounded in the Esoteric History of Soul 101.

That is why I enjoy this thread as we explore the possibilities. Most of us are highly opinionated but I have yet to see any of us be opinionated to the point of flat out refusing any ideas or possibilities. "Those who bring nothing to the temple, bring nothing away from it."


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Originally Posted by doug_rogers
I was thinking that the soul tears at the actual death of the victim, not the decision to kill, not the act of killing, but at the death. The process can be stopped, repented, anytime up until the actual death for the wholeness of the soul. But in the case of Avada Kadavra, the last two steps are instantaneous. So there is no difference.
In most acts of murder, there is quickly a point of no return. My opinion is that this is what is shown in the case of Draco who can begin the act but not carry himself through to the conclusion. Whether this aids your opinion or bonds ours together, I am unsure.



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Originally Posted by doug_rogers
I guess the vacuum bottle idea sucks.
Ack, pun. We will soon have the distinction of the longest posts and most puns.


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Originally Posted by doug_rogers
I imagined a portion of Voldemort's soul trapped in Harry, a not completeley severed portion so that there would be threads, strings, tenous ectoplasmic links to the excluded Vapourmort bit.

Sliver anchored, or his own completely gone, well, either will do to explain everything. I do think the split occurring on the act is more internally consistent.
This puts me in mind of the silver chord which many encounter during astral travel. A pity we do not see such a chord in his dreams as it would make talks infinitly more interesting and deep. But we have to still analyse the possibility of just such a connection. I will see what I can dig up on spiritual tendrils as well. (while keeping us from going where no man save Lovecraft should ever go)



Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Okay. So Nagini is a horcrux. Mental connection. uh huh... I don't have a problem with it. So it wouldn't, in this view be necessary for some ecto linking to remain in the stretched soul, and the fragment thrown and not returned would still, unanchored, seek the other.

I do like the idea of a ink and will have to ponder it in terms of another thinking system. Shamanically, such a chord is not needed. My thinking thus far is that the spirit requires binding and only has so many options. Of those options, returning to the host body and being locked into its spirit is really the only one available to such a shard as it is not bound to a dementor or a horcrux. But I will keep rolling around the umbilical idea and see if anything sticks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
This came out of previous discussions where it seemed consensus was Soul had a rudimentary hunger and ability to possess. Inherent abilities, not necessarily Magical. Magic was never done without a hand to hold a wand. Requires a body. So Parseltongue cannot manifest without a body, though it may be a property of the soul.


I see your thinking, but boy Riddle showed us that a wand is not necessary to work magic. The wand is more of a focus to work the magic with, a spiritual antannae of sorts. In the book he does not say that he was incapable of performing magick, but that "every spell that might have helped me required the use of a wand." (from chapter The Death Eaters in GoF) That alone seems indicitive to me that he was still quite capable of magic but was incapable of performing the spells which would have been of any benefit to him. He does say the one power left to him was possession and that the animals he used were ill-adapted to perform magic. Though that could easilly just mean that they had non-opposible thumbs lol. This brings us to a point that is very debatable and I am much curious in your opinion on it. Perhaps together our opposing viewpoints will sort it out so that everyone else can not have to think lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
I enjoy this paring of the idea. The charged and propelled soul fragment would explain the whooshing sounds too.
Agreed. A sort of magickal vacume much as the one you mention believing occured in Harry, but that instead occurs in the caster of the spell.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Like a jet and a sonic boom, the air filling the vacuum?

Pretty much, but in this case it is magic. A magic boom of sorts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
More likely, Voldemorts soul being sucked out of his body? Since something spiritual was thrown, wouldn't something spiritual fill the space? rather than something corporeal?
I was using his phrasing of the event. But the outcome is really the same. It caused his body and soul to be savagely ripped apart as an equillibrium was sought for all the displaced energy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Some folks in some threads just won't accept the idea of Soul at all and seek entirely Rational, and even more complicated explanations.
In a fantasy series dealing with magic, and that explicitely mentions the soul? How? How could the horcruxes even work without that?

*blinks*



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Some time ago I mentioned the idea in the alchemy thread and the bright lights there suggested Voldemort was doing a 'Great Work' in reverse. I would not have thought of this. My idea is that the Philosopher's Stone is said to transmute elements by reverting them to their origin and then making them into something else. This reverse action I attributed to Harry, with the most likely thing to transmute being Voldemort. I notice that when Voldemort cursed baby Harry, the curse rebounded. I notice that dives are Harry's specialty in Quidditch, and that Harry bested Snape at occlumency by reversing Snape's spell. I suspect that Harry can undo things. Like doug_rogers with his lost soul idea, I can't make it hang together, but I feel there is a lot to suggest that 'reversal' is a force at work in the story.
Perhaps it comes back to the reflection in the mirror, the glorious play of opposites. Harry is performing the great work, and Voldemort reversing it. In this we see that they are each seeking to undo and cancel out one another. One's action leads to the other neutralising it, now we have a race of sorts to see who can create their work before the other can bring it to ruin. "One step forward and two steps back"



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
First thing that comes to mind is 'The Count of Monte Cristo', Edmund Dantes is arrested and imprisoned on his wedding day during the wedding feast. Second thing is Austen's 'Persuasion' where the heroine is persuaded to refuse her suitor, but that's not exactly the same thing -maybe.

There is always "The Graduate". But I have a hard time seeing Voldemort banging on a window screaming "No god No!!!" because he wants to be with Fleur.




Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
A few years ago I was talking with a friend who said that recordings of rock music could have an unusual sound because the engineers mixing the material were on drugs which, among other effects, alter hearing. Last year I was talking with someone else about medieval music and it occurred to me that part of the sonorities might be the result of drug use by medieval musicians. Music history generally says that some instruments were introduced into Europe from the Levant during the Crusades, about the time of our alchemists. And I think it likely that more than the shawm and crumhorn were brought back. It wouldn't be just the general population, the witches having fun on their brooms. In later centuries, following the discovery of the New World, songs praised the effects of tobacco -music from court musicians, so landowning crusaders as well as the rabble of the entourage may have been receptive to herbs from the east. Still, it is possible that there was no need to import hallucinogens -they were found in Europe already, and the sonorities of the instruments alone can account for the quality of the music.


The question I would ask is whether the drugs influence the music or the music the drugs. Shamanically the two bring the same effect. And as far as the neural patterns have shown in studies, each affects the brain similarly and changes its consciousness. I often like to sit and ponder which affects which. I have read reports of modern shamans asking plants how to prepare them for various remedies and medicines while in the spirit world. Upon leaving they do a bit of research and find that their remedies are remarkably similar, if not exact, to those used by ancient societies. This has lead me to the personal conclusion that this is how plant entheogens were discovered. That ancient man used his spirit journeying and that the specific plants told them whther they were poisonous, or whether they could only be eatten certain ways. Otherwise we have an exceptionally remarkable example of trial and error in which a good portion of early homo sapiens would have died off. This brings up the question of whether we discovered that music could send us out in a like manner to this. Since the first spirit quest is typically brought on as a near death experience we could have an early man stuck by lightening and told to build a drum by a goat spirit. Or we could have one likewise struck by lightening and told to drink tobacco juice. But the end results are really the same and I believe the two are very closely linked together. Sorry to ramble.



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
And soon after, following a display of his deductive prowess, and the drug takes hold, the adventure begins. This aspect of the story is famous, and the basis of the film 'The Seven Per Cent Solution', but naive moi never registered this when I read the stories as a youth, maybe I missed this one, and I never saw the film. Yet the movie is not about 'The Sign of Four' and no one connects the imagery in the story with the precessional myth or the shaman's journey. There is also the little irony that Watson confronts Holme's bad habit only after he himself has drunk Beaune. And Beaune according to one site was the capitol of Cote-d'or before Dijon, mentioned by Hermione.

When I was a child and first read some of the Sherlock Holmes stories, i remember asking my stoner cousin why the government made such things illegal if even as smart a person as Holmes could use it and not become a madman. My cousin broke into a long winded rant about the government and how they could not just let us be. I think he may be part of the reason I am so against trying plant entheogens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaselDiva
Rust Loup's Bear Story and Giant Story
After reading these, Hagrid just came to mind. He is so much like a bear and obviously is of giant heritage. It also made me think that the mountains and caves around Hogwarts may be useful to the Order of Phoenix as a new hideout.
You know, it would make a nice hideout. And I would imagine that not many people would wish to tangle with Grawp if he is the guard. It makes me curious as to Grawp's status in the Order now that he has calmed down a bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaselDiva
Nagini as a horcrux
What if Voldemort's current physical body dies before horcrux!Nagini? Then we could have VoldyGini as his mind shifts over to live in the snake.

So we end up with Harry vs. giant bad-asp snake again (Chamber of Secrets scenario) fighting to get Ginny back. If Ron helps fight Voldegini, then we have a weasel-basilisk connection.

After Snake horcrux is defeated, Harry has internal soul fight as we have previously discussed.
But why would the mind move into Nagini's body as opposed to reverting to Vapourmort form? It would be a very stupid thing for him to do really. But given his actions thus far in the series, I cannot see that he has done anything worthy of being entitled to be labeled otherwise lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
That other tree is the yew. Beyond simply being potentially deadly, I wonder if yew has ever been used as an intoxicant for shamanic purposes? Or if accidental poisonings with it ever inadvertantly led to otherworldly journeys? (Anyone ever hear of yew being used this way?) If this is so, it would add more creedence to Barmy's supposition that it is Voldemort who is the shaman-in-training here while Harry represents the process. I mean, who knows what using such a wand wood for magic might lead to? The potential for death always has the additional potential to bring on resurrection. That right there might be enough to associate death and resurrection with the same rune that literally means "yew." But if the poisonous aspects in any way enhance the potential for shamanic experiences, the rune/yew/death-and-resurrection association would make complete sense.

Yup, I made mention of it. But I am willing to bet that ya catch that later on.



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
And it was a flight on a broom to get a golden egg -which is the North Star, or perhaps the knowledge a shaman brings back.


I would probably opt for knowledge. I say this because he used it to find out what his next foray into the spiritual realm would bring so that he could prepare himself for it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
The myth of Psyche and Cupid was excellent. Many thanks.

No prob.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Psyche is one of those terms that hover around the idea of "soul" like cats around a can opener...
Or Aberforth around goats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
And never will be. The whole thing irritates me. You have the Vulgate which translates the exact same word in one instance as meaning Satan, the Deceiver, and in another as meaning Christ. Didn't anyone forsee the problems this would cause? This happened in the third century; why wasn't it fixed? Didn't anyone think it very odd to call the "Prince of Darkness" "Light-bringer"??? Maps and territories in riotus confusion- indeed. The Church has always been its own worst enemy.
Open mouth and insert foot? I was going to do it in Latin and therefore make it incredibly funny to me, but I seem to be incapable of remembering "to open" offhand. Aperio or adaperio for to fully open? Anyone with a better head for Latin than myself care to help?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
OK, this is getting scary/cool. Waaay too many ideas I came to independently before seeing they'd already been brought up!!! (Rust, you will also remember a similar pairing of scary/cool in the story of my dorm days I related to you privately.) Maybe I need to risk brain sprain after all and read all these durned posts before commenting anymore.................

Naaaah.... don't have that much patience. Sorry.

I say run with it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Score! Ummm.... so to speak.

Told ya so...so to speak.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Oh Bravo, Rust. The placement of Dumbledore's scar being on the "bee's knee(s)"! Anyone know if that expression is used at all by the British? If so, JKR might once again have been giving us a very offhand, obscure, but meaningful clue. (Here's a thought.... a novel/play in which Sherlock Holmes attempts to decipher all of JKR's clues.)

I am not as savvy as I would like on British culture. I still cannot get past the french fries vs. chips thing. I am a link, click me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
The latest scientific news says from Rick Maizels at the University of.... Edinburgh.... shows that parasitic worms (same ookiness factor as maggots, hence the mental association) prompt their hosts to produce "regulatory T" cells that help calm the immune system, thus reducing the frequency and severity of both asthma and allergies (of which I have more than enough that make life hell, thank you). There is hope researchers can isolate the molecule the worms use to cause this so that it can be synthesized. It may also prove helpful in keeping Type I diabetes in check, as it is the result of an immune system miscue.

Parasites, leeches, slugs...nifty how all those icky things can help us and cure us. Whereas deer just give us Lyme Disease (and venison, delicious amazing venison)




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ummm... you can forget my request to post an image of Sowilo in order to prove "my" point about the likeness to the scar.


*blows raspberry*


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
OK, just a teensy comment here..... There's a car dealership down in Wichita owned by a guy named (NO KIDDING!) Rusty Eck...... there's that durned Twilight Zone theme again!

He who would be what he ought to be must stop being what he is. -Johannes Eckhart



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
So if gestures are so important, I suppose an orchestra conductor is on a par with Merlin, no?

No, a conductor is far more powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbledore in PS
"Ah music," he said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here! And now, bedtime. Off you trot."

I must be trotting off now as well i fear. Good night to each of you.


__________________
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"Omnes angeli, boni et mali, ex virtute naturali habent potestatem transmutandi corpora nostra"

"What if it's a race with the fate of the world hanging in the balance? Will men turn into animals before animals turn into men?" - the man in black, Cry of the Leopard
  #105  
Old January 11th, 2006, 9:13 am
barmy codger's Avatar
barmy codger  Undisclosed.gif barmy codger is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 3975 days
Posts: 1,376
Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Perhaps it comes back to the reflection in the mirror, the glorious play of opposites. Harry is performing the great work, and Voldemort reversing it.
In my opinion, no. Harry is not performing the Great Work. He is not seeking immortality, he is just Harry. Voldemort is seeking immortality and has undergone transformations. We have Harry as Seeker of the Golden Snitch, and I have already allowed he is in a shamanic state in the First Task, but these are symbolic -more abstract than Voldemort's quest which forms the plot of the story.
Quote:
He who would be what he ought to be must stop being what he is. -Johannes Eckhart
Quote:
To be is to do (Socrates).
To do is to be (Sartre).
Doobeedoobeedoo (Sinatra)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I must be trotting off now as well i fear.
Spoken like a true animal.


  #106  
Old January 11th, 2006, 9:47 am
doug_rogers  Male.gif doug_rogers is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3381 days
Location: london ontario canada
Age: 61
Posts: 514
Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
You practice Pure-Land Buddhism?
My inclination is Zen. The temple is Vietnamese, which is a mix of Chan (chinese precursor to Zen) and Pure Land. There are Zen Vietnamese (Thich Nhat Hahn) , but not at this community level.

Quote:
and that the animals he used were ill-adapted to perform magic. Though that could easilly just mean that they had non-opposible thumbs lol.
Only humanoids capable of magic. I don't think it's too far off. something I was pondering the other day myself. Ever seen a map of the homunculus of the body on the brain?

As to the workings and Timing of the Avada Kadavra, I have no difference with you over it at this point.


  #107  
Old January 11th, 2006, 10:06 am
Emerald63  Female.gif Emerald63 is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 3451 days
Location: Kansas
Age: 51
Posts: 512
Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Greetings!

As for progress on my catch-up, another day another page. Alas, Wednesdays are my out-and-about-all-day days, so I shant get back at it till Thursday. Anyone seeing fit to lie low till the weekend or later (yeah, like that will ever happen) might be in line for a token of my appreciation. Not sure what or how, but I could try to make it worth your while!

Ah well, best get back at it........



Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
This gets back to my wish of seeing much more from the runes. If we could just see Hermione in the same room as the pensieve or the horcrux basin (though I do not believe that the latter was mentioned as having runes on it just looking a bit like the pensieve). Here we have an amazing magickal object with runes on it, but never have Hermione around to tell us what they mean. If there are runes on the basin, for example, then she may be able to read them and give us some form of idea what they meant. And the pensieve is mainly just a curiousity thing. I am sure it would amount to some cheesey saying.
I suggest you check out the Underground Lake column, #32, at MuggleNet. The author goes into this and where it might lead a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I was looking for "balefire" a name synonomous with bonfire though used rather often in the pagan community(particularly with Wiccans it seems) to seperate a standard bonfire from a magickal one. In a "magickal" balefire the woods used matter (I was hoping to find some grand and amazing wand connection).
It's been my understanding that the bale in balefire is on a par with other root words your sources list as being connected to the god Bel, or the "fiery shining one," although I've heard the term used for more than just Beltaine fires.

As for woods, I was somewhat shocked to see the Angelic.tk website list hawthorne as acceptable. At least in Ireland there is a very old, very strong prohibition on cutting down hawthornes. I believe this is for ANY reason, even a magical one, though I may be mistaken in that. I learned of this in person from the very lips of Janet Farrar, one half of the Janet and Stewart Farrar duo (may his soul be smiling in the Summerlands), one of the founding couples of the modern witchcraft movement. She even related that some folks think the reason John deLorean's auto company ended so badly was because a hawthorne tree was cut down to make way for the manufacturing plant, which was in Ireland. Course all the trouble with cocaine probably didn't help.

About the wand woods and the balefire woods not matching up as you'd hoped, keep in mind much of modern Wicca is a recreation of history as it's believed to have happened and some is just plain old made up. I wouldn't base what the ancients might have used for their wands/staves on only Wiccan sources. Some are more into history, regardless of its shortcomings. Others just wing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Tommorrow is Hogmanay(Happy Scottish New Year Everyone) and it is also another significant date. That would be the birthday of a young Tom Marvolo Riddle. *cue the theme music*
There was much discussion at the Celtic Mythology thread v.1 about the Oak and Holly Kings. The opposing calendar dates for Harry's and Voldemort's birthdays make for one clue that they might represent these two figures. BTW, did you have something specific in mind for the theme music?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
(do not worry if you are confused, I am confusing me too)
Ummm.... should I be worried if I'm not confused?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Hrm, stressed before fending Voldemort off the Philosopher's Stone, stressed before rescuing Ginny. You know, I think you are on to something.
I hate to say it, but this could just be a dramatic tool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Not quite [a pariah]. I still have Robyn, Aiden, you lot, and a small cadre(4 mayb of like-minded spiritual out of state friends. Without this I would become a hermit, move in the middle of nowhere, and probably degenerate into a feral man-beast incapable of speech.
You are still welcome to widen that circle by attending a Phoenix Festival. Not too large and the natives are quite friendly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Perhaps it is a part of the initiation ritual where one is torn apart and put together stronger and more powerful than before. Or it could be a part of the shaman's knowledge that there is more to a person than the bits and pieces attached to their body.
Am I to understand from this that plywood would make an excellent shamanistic fetish material?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
The mirror may very well be tied in to ancestor worship.
Wouldn't it just be Harry's use of the mirror that involves ancestor worship? Ron's use of it turns out very differently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I do not see why not, though I would lump "soul-splinching" with soul fracturing.
But wouldn't splinching be purposeful while fracturing is a result of a separate act? I think part of the damage of fracturing comes from the person being so focused on their murderous act that they are already divorced from the spiritual self, their soul, and not in an active mode of self/soul-preservation. Splinching though requires a great deal of "centering" on oneself to accomplish. Perhaps they would have similar outcomes, hiving off part of the soul, but it would seem they come at it from very different perspectives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I agree. [JKR] would have to [have a chart], I see no way around it really. What I would give for a copy.
I seem to remember reading in an interview that she has a 12x12 grid she uses. Not sure if it's for plot development or to coordinate sources of inspiration and references



Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
I am groping towards an anti-horcrux process useful to the good guys.
That other Underground Lake article I mentioned in regards to this is #31. Since I mentioned it as "the latest," #32 has been added. Lots more good info in it, too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Yes, I was onto [L. Ron Hubbard] even as a kid. I remember an article about the new scientology in Life magazine way way back when, and I knew it was hocum because I had read one of his dreadful science fiction stories.
Do you suppose forcing his followers to read his collected sci-fi works might help to deprogram them? If it didn't bore them to death?



Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
At science fiction conventions I've been to, one of the legends is that Hubbard told a few writer friends, prior to Scientology, that to make lots of money you ought to just invent a religion. One thought is that Scientology was originally just a religion he invented for some SF storyline. Instead, he decided to market it as a real religion.
Ohhh, P.T. Barnum would have been so proud!!!



From the site JohnDL cited, http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/c.../barbget.html:
Quote:
#3 - Past and Future atates of doing are probabilistic -- there is no absolute certainty.

#5 - All Barbaric adjectives are understood as referring to personal perceptions and attitudes. There are no absolute qualities.
"Barbaric" my as$. Just this part right here could halt all the "My religion is the 'right' religion" cr@p. Right up there with comparing the Buddha's quote about letting go of "I am" and Jehovah's "I am that I am."


Quote:
If the pentacle is placed on the central blank square it may be interpreted as any letter.
Blank squares? Ouija-Scrabble?? My gods, that's a frightening thought. Could we possibly cause the end of the world if we further combined this with Twister???


Quote:
The following script called "Linear A"
But then I'm an archeology geek.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
I've gotten to the point with all the sacred explanations that I mostly just look at the techniques any more. The juice is either there, or its not.
This is a very good way of saying it. Who needs explanations from others when the proper techniques can get you into direct contact with said "juice"? Sort of like learning to ride a bicycle by reading the manual. Doesn't work that way.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I agree that rain alone is great, but I still cannot see rain and thunder as seperate things. It is like peanut butter and fruit loops, they just go together ya know.
Ohhh, I knew there was a reason I liked you. Just my kind o' weird.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Clear means you have rid yourself of body thetans(pesky alien spirits leftover from when the intergallactic warlord Xenu brought them to earth, blew them up in Hawaiian volcanoes, and forced their souls to watch brainwashing films).
OK. Utter ignorance time. Is any of this something other than complete b***s*** on your part? Or is this actually some of their "religion"? I'd always figured they were out to lunch, but not necessarily dining at the "Restaurant at the End of the Universe."


About JohnDL's Barbaric Runes link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
If I am understanding the link, then they have developed a runic system and language for the purpose of adding a symbolic coding system to the magical practices to fuel it along? (sort of like spiritual training wheels)

If that is the case, then how could I seperate this from other magics, which I have described as a vast language of symbolism. Or am I, as always, reading too deeply?
Ummm.... I could well have missed something, but I had the impression the site was at least a bit tongue in cheek. Although.... any number of ideas brought up in a non-serious manner have ended up being used by folks who simply don't want to rely on systems with a lot of baggage attached.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
You may not be taking the satiric elements seriously enough...
Ahh, good. seems I got it after all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
What is it about carpenters who are into weird mystic stuff.
Perhaps they've all been inhaling yew fumes, although I've heard convincing arguments that linguistically the term applied to Jesus ought to read "stone mason," not carpenter. <Gee, barmy, didn't mean for you to snap your head up so fast you put a kink in your neck!>


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Of all topics in Christian mythology, the nephilim are probably my favorite. Aside from my shapeshifter theory, they throw a monkey wrench into the wheels of the bible. It is said in Genesis that they were on earth before and after the flood.
You know, unless they're aquatic, they'd have had to have been on the ark to make that work. Not too familiar with them, though. Aren't they the product of angels (four-faced seraphim) and humans? So did they vamoose to the heavens during the flood? If not, and they ain't aquatic, what gives? BTW, Barmy, there's another "four" for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Could they perhaps be various tribal peoples and nomads who were attributed great powers and sorceries over time? If so, what would thei dilluted blood make them now.
Ummm, muggle-born wizards?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
It almost makes me wish I believed in the bible so that I could have a hope of meeting such a fantastic being. But perhaps it is one of those things recorded in the bible which actually occured, just with a Abrhamic twist. But again, what would these people be today? If shapeshifters then what sort of beasts do they become or is it a spiritual form. If shamans or sorcerors, what powers do they possess or is it intuitions?
I think you already answered your own question, but perhaps a mirror might prove helpful


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
There are also the singing bowls used in various Buddhist, Hindu, and Sikh meditations. And you would be supprised at didjeridoo music.
Meant to ask about the part where you included the ocarina in this list. Does it mean anything if any one of these things really bugs a person? If the person just cannot manage to find a natural feel in one of them? Ocarinas just drive me bananas, although the others I find very pleasant. Something about their shrillness even when played by someone with actual skill just sets me on edge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
JKR said in one interview (for PoA) that the cemetery at Hogwarts would be important in a later book; I was pretty sure reading HBP that the tomb of Dumbledore didn't qualify for that, since we haven't actually seen the cemetery yet.
It's interesting... somewhere a character (McG?) says that no other Hogwarts head has ever requested burial on the grounds. So has anyone really ever been buried there before D-dore? What if the cemetery JKR spoke of refers to D-dore's grave and nothing else? After the PoA movie came out I remember a rumor about JKR saying there was some ancient Celtic burial ground that was supposed to be at Hogwarts, but maybe that was another way of referring to D-dore's grave before HBP was published. So maybe D-dore's grave IS the cemetery. Remember that editorial of mine I kept touting? I have some pertinant quotes in it concerning an otherworld journey in general and the "cemetery" in particular:

Quote:
Harry's stag patronus isn't the only indicator of a possible Otherworldly journey. In "Cernunnos: The Celtic Horned God" by Montague Whitsel (http://www.isisbooks.com/cernunnos.asp), the author states, "In Celtic traditions, those who can walk... without being seen or heard are thought to be capable of walking between the worlds." (Invisibility cloak, anyone?) And "those who are quiet... can 'hear' the Otherworld, and by following these sounds they may find the sidhe... and cross over." (Remember Harry hearing whispers beyond the MoM's Veil?)

But perhaps the clearest sign of a healthy return from the Otherworld for Harry is found in this comment from Whitsel, "Cernunnos presides over various kinds of journeys into the Otherworld... He can also lead adventurers into the Otherlands while still in their coích anama (“soul house”; i.e., the body), if they need to see something there, or if they are looking for someone. Following Cernunnos through the Veil between the Worlds is one of the surest ways of making the journey and returning unscathed, as he generally won’t abandon those who follow him with good purpose."

<snip>

Why do I feel Harry's actual journey will begin at Hogwarts? Because of the second of those other elements of Celtic myth: Hogwarts is where Dumbledore is buried. Once again according to Caitlin Matthews, consulting the ancestors "...was best pursued near their earthly resting place." And Whitsel states that "Cernunnos may appear to his mystics at graveyards and near tombs." Something else Whitsel says illustrates, to me anyway, one of the most amazing parallels between Celtic myth and the Potterverse. He says (and you're not going to believe this... I know I didn't) that one of "the best places for such apparitions... is a site of a single burial off in the woods or near a body of water..." And where exactly is Dumbledore's lone White Tomb? Where did he himself likely request that it be placed? Well, we know he specifically requested burial somewhere in the Hogwarts grounds, unlike any previous Headmaster, so who's to say he didn't ask that it definitely be a lakefront site?
An additional bit from Matthews (in "The Encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom") is that bird-song is one of numerous ways to open a door to the otherworld. Bird-song, as in phoenix-song. Fawkes, anyone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
In book seven, a literal spirit trip to the underworld?
I'm still open to forwarding my editorial to anyone who'd like to read it. Rust can vouch for me that it's not a complete waste of time. I hope.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Perhaps the Draught of the Living Death? I still cannot get past the naming of that particular potion and the ideas it conjures.
I just realized, what would Draco and his folks have experienced if they'd taken D-dore up on his offer to hide them so well no one would know they were alive? I've have heard and agree with theories that this potion would have been the method for achieving that. Would they all have come out of the potion-state nicer people? Or just scared beyond belief?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Persinger did a good deal of work with epileptics.
Stimulation of selected areas of the brain is being used not only to treat epilepsy, but as the latter day descendent of electroshock therapy for severe mental health conditions. Also, multi-noded electrode caps are helping researchers reproduce the near death experience as well as a closely related phenomenon in pilots who undergo extreme g-forces.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Interesting that JKR would get into the whole "silence your mind" bit, too.
What's the quote? "Be still and know that I am"?


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I have always liked the Qabbalistic method of making sigils. It involves a bit of numerology, mixed with a tiny bit of astrology. Then throw in a pinch of "magic square" draw some lines to connect the numbers, and viola, you have a sigil perfectly acceptable in altar work or talismanic magic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
When I look at all these methods, the one thing that stands out about them is the lengths to which the magicians go to cut the conscious mind out of the circuit.
That reminds me, I got a copy of Nevill Drury's "The Shaman and The Magician" for Yule from no less than my husband's (converted Catholic) sister and her (life long Catholic) husband. I wonder if they read the jacket description or even noted the publisher's name, Arkana Books?



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Sounds a bit like "Chariots of the Gods" which is another such "we were founded by an alien race, yippee" book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
The two are much the same except Mr Stitchin seems able to read ancient Sumerian texts.
Does anyone with more knowledge than I wish to comment on the sky battles of the "gods" in the Hindu Rig Veda? I'm not buying the alien thing, but there's some interesting imagery there nonetheless, as is the same with Ezekiel in the Bible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Finally, in case Emerald63 suddenly returns from her seasonal bacchanal or whatever....
Would that it were true! No, there were way too many "mundanes" (non-pagans) involved for that much fun. So it was rather like having one's phone ring during sex only to find one's parent or in-law on the other end. UGH!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
....here is a something that could be a comment about TV viewing. From a book I'm looking at 'Shamans, Healers, and Medicine Men', by Holger Kalweit
Quote:
Don Qochvonga, a Hopi religious leader:
I don't blame the white people for their genius to transmit power through their many kinds of machines. They are crude mechanical contraptions that may break down. We Hopis don't need them. We know how to manifest our powers -the same powers -without machines.
If he didn't have television in mind, then I can still use this quote as being a parallel to Ms Rowling's contrast between muggle technology and magic.
I say more power to both the Hopi leader and the fictional magical folk. I still like being told stories, though, and TV, books, and film (which I believe you enjoy as well, Barmy) are the lifelong media of my mind. I'm not opposed to tyring another medium (no pun intended), I just like the "comfort food' aspect of the known, ya know?



Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I try to thouroughly avoid conspiracy theories such as these, but given our current political light they seem rather plausible. I mean, the past month alone the President of our nation has admitting to having the NSA keep files(where you work, what you drive, who you know, your daily schedule, etc) on anyone seen at an anti-war protest or who mentiones anti-war ideas online(very vague on that but I got the impression that they are using the same monitoring systems that they use for actual terrorists). He has also fessed up to monitoring inter-state and inter-nation phone calls. For some that may seem no big deal, but in my work and private life 98 out of 100 hundred calls I make fits that critera. That means if my wife is calling her mum in California, some shady guy can be eaves dropping because the people of this nation were stupid enough to elect a babboon for a second term. *end rant mode*
Anyone familiar with Nixon's Viet Nam era shennigans and the lengths he went to in obscuring them will at least be thankful that W is kind/dumb enough to fill us in on so many of his own doings. If we were all so kind/dumb, his people wouldn't have anything to snoop for. BTW, rant away. It's so enjoyable to hear/see someone other than myself doing it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
"I pity tha fool who don't get to shamanising" (dunno why Mr. T popped into my head).
Rust, while you currently shun TV, what knowledge of it you do have is... disturbing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Ooo, good find. I am not sure about the raising of fly agaric, but I know the psychocilibin mushrooms are raised using cow dung(or can be) and are often wild harvested near cow dung. Could this tell us that the source of Harry's journey will be gained from 'Dung? I wonder what illegal plants he could traffic to Harry lol.
Yeah.... what was it the Weasley twins bought off him?

<runs to check>

"Venomous tentacula seeds. We need them for the Skivving Snackboxes but they're a Class C Non-Tradeable Substance so we've been having a bit of trouble getting hold of them." The seeds look like "shriveled black pods" with a "faint rattling noise... coming from them, even though they were completely stationary." The twins end up paying Dung ten galleons for a handful. Earlier, the twins had pocketed some of the doxies infesting #12's curtains so they could use their venom to experiment for the Skivving Snackboxes. Sounds like they might be go-to guys for potions and/or ingredients for same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Now, out of curiousity, I have to check up some on Norse myths and see if there are any similar Spearfinger-esque stories there, as that is where Tolkien took many of his works from.
Not sure on the name but there is a similar real-life creature. I believe it's the lorus, or slow lorus. One digit is very long, nothing but skin over bone, that it uses for tapping trees with to find cavities full of termites and other bugs that it eats. A spearfinger monster indeed to the bugs, it would seem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
(a skin suit? or is that to Ed Gein for people here?)
Never made the connection to dear old Ed, but it's kinda interesting in "Men In Black" that there's an alien in an Edgar suit, made from a genuine Edgar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Especially the fact that [JKR] has mentioned "acid green" several times. Ergot is used in the making of lysergic acid dythlamide, our good old pal LSD or.... Acid. Do you think this constant mentioning of acid green could be a bit of a hint? And what does it tell us of Rita Skeeter who gets the most mentions of acid green?
Considering her own likely underworld connections from all her tabloid muckraking, Rita might be helpful in "hooking up" Harry for some potions ingredients.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I know potassium cyanide can cause it but I am unsure if that is one of the cyanides in the bitter almond.
Sounds likely as the scent of bitter almonds in tissue is one way to determine cyanide ingestion. BTW, only some people have the genes that allow this scent to be picked up. Shamanic legacy, do you suppose?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Wasn't science supposed to conquer the flaws which religion has, not follow the same techniques and still give us answers we have to take on faith? I have said it in the past and will say it again, science is just the new and hip religion of the day.
I'm not sure science is the problem, not in theory, so to speak. It's who's doing the science, who's paying for it - and WHY in both cases - that is the source of many problems.


On the quotes from Christians concerned about witchcraft and HP that Rust quoted:
Quote:
UFO nonsense of the 'greys' ..... in testimonies by those who have been demon possessed
Sooo....... UFOs are nonesense but demons are a definite thing? Sound like the pot calling the kettle black to me, as my mother would say.

Quote:
In a sense Harry becomes 'master' over Voldemort, not only by fearlessly saying his name, but defeating him in each book, with his own Black Magic. Except, Harry's witchcraft is presented as good. How can glorifying witchcraft be acceptable before God? How can a Christian walk in agreement with non-Christians on this matter?
And how are the sympathetic magics of a Christian religious service any different? Oh right, God magic=good magic, non-God magic=bad magic, i.e. a big fat challenge to 'the' god.

Quote:
witchcraft is openly practiced.
Darn straight, just not like in Harry Potter......

Quote:
It is not a fantasy or a fable as some would have us believe. As has been said, Rowling said the vehicle of her story is witchcraft. If it's just fantasy we should not be able to find a current witchcraft practice that parallels her fantasy witchcraft.
Right. I'll just apparate on over to your place, Imperius your as$ and get you to do my bidding, then. Ought to clear up all these goofball websites in a jiffy, don't ya think?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
On this note, I get to the true point of this post and the reason I made a display of how crazy some can be. Call it a confession I guess. A couple of you will already know this as I have discussed it with you in provate without letting you know I dicussed it with other. The point of that is to make sure that 1: I could still call you friends afterwards, and 2: make sure it did not go over like a lead zepplin (not to be confused with Led Zepplin which went over very well). This is something hinted at for a while, and I came very close to telling it in the open many times. What mainly got me settled to tell it was my fight with pneumonia. I feel lucky to be able to call each of you my friends and have decided there is much more I can worry about in life than my "weirdo tendencies".
How can any of us not love such a wonderfully unique person like you, Rust? You're cool, you're brave, you know tons of cool sh*t, and you're funny as hell, too. (((big, big hug))) Didn't matter a whit to me what you said next; I'm cool with it. Maybe you'd like talking with one of my Phoenix phamily friends... his internet handle is Elderdragonkin. He considers himself kin to an Elder Dragon. I think you and my friend would get along famously. But.... how do dragons and wolves get on?



Wow, another page bites the dust. Cool. I may catch y'all yet!


  #108  
Old January 11th, 2006, 9:20 pm
WeasleDiva  Female.gif WeasleDiva is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3518 days
Location: Indiana
Posts: 424
Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rust Loup:
But why would the mind move into Nagini's body as opposed to reverting to Vapourmort form?
Nagini's body is more powerful than being Vapormort..you can slilther..you can sink your fangs into people...a world of opportunity for bad, bad Voldy. Also when you are killed, the proximinty of your nearest horcrux may have something to do with it?

Just a thought, no canon evidence at all, but an invisility cloak would make a dandy horcrux. Once you hid it, anyone would be hard pressed to find it.

By the way, Rowling noted on her website that the Sorting Hat is not a horcrux because horcrux's do not talk and sing bringing attention to themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
JKR said in one interview (for PoA) that the cemetery at Hogwarts would be important in a later book; I was pretty sure reading HBP that the tomb of Dumbledore didn't qualify for that, since we haven't actually seen the cemetery yet.
I probably mentioned this before, but I still think the Chamber of Secrets may be a burial chamber similar to those in Egypt. Somebody (I think on layers) noted that a basilisk just does not need that much by way of interior design.

Quote:
grangerite, n. one who adds to a book extra illustrations, maps, or the like taken from other books or independently collected.
Possibly, Hermione will write an updated version of Hogwarts, a History.
After Rowling finishes HP, she said she would write a book with background information. It would be so fun if she wrote it as "Hermione."

Quote:
How can any of us not love such a wonderfully unique person like you, Rust? You're cool, you're brave, you know tons of cool sh*t, and you're funny as hell, too. (((big, big hug))) Didn't matter a whit to me what you said next; I'm cool with it.
Definitely, I agree.

What is wonderful about this thread is the rich variety of faith experiences and paradigms that we bring to this encounter. What will be the most fruitful, HP wise, will be those intersection points where all these different traditions connect. What will be the most enriching for us as human beings, is reaching and looking at life from other viewpoints.

Brought to our attention by Barmy:
Quote:
Brought to our attention by Barmy: Hendaye
The INRI inscription - With this image we are placed firmly within the Rosicrucian Alchemical tradition. As Fulcanelli tells us, this inscription can be interpreted as one of the key maxims of alchemy: Igne Natura Renovatur Integra or "By fire nature is renewed whole." It is also Igne Nitrum Raris Invenitum or "The shining is rarely found in fire." Perhaps a more accurate way to view these four letters is as the initial letters of the Hebrew names of the elements: Yam, water, Yod or I; Nour, fire, Nun or N; Ruach, air, Resh or R; and Yebeshas, earth, and Yod or I again.
This is a very interesting find, Barmy. I haven't had much time to deeply contemplate this, but what litle I could absorb provided a quick shock to my system.

To add in the traditional Christian interpretation, the INRI stands for "Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm." Latin uses "I" instead of the English "J", and "V" instead of "U" (i.e., Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judaeorum). So in English it says, "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews." In the Gospel of John, it says that the sign was written in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew.

The "R" for "Rex" means king. I don't know why I didn't put this together before. This gave me chills when I think about ickel Ron in Sorcerer's Stone wearing his maroon sweater with the big "R."


  #109  
Old January 12th, 2006, 12:36 am
rust_loup  Male.gif rust_loup is offline
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Posts: 585
Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
In my opinion, no. Harry is not performing the Great Work. He is not seeking immortality, he is just Harry. Voldemort is seeking immortality and has undergone transformations. We have Harry as Seeker of the Golden Snitch, and I have already allowed he is in a shamanic state in the First Task, but these are symbolic -more abstract than Voldemort's quest which forms the plot of the story.
Thus my alchemical lack of experience shows itself grinning stupidly to the world lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
To be is to do (Socrates).
To do is to be (Sartre).
Doobeedoobeedoo (Sinatra)
I just snarfed my tea. Thank you


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Spoken like a true animal.

You wouldn't say that if you saw how horrendous I trot. I am much better at lurching. And even a bit profecient at traipsing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
My inclination is Zen. The temple is Vietnamese, which is a mix of Chan (chinese precursor to Zen) and Pure Land. There are Zen Vietnamese (Thich Nhat Hahn) , but not at this community level.

Sounds rather nifty. And the fact that it is rather mixed makes me even more envious of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Only humanoids capable of magic. I don't think it's too far off. something I was pondering the other day myself. Ever seen a map of the homunculus of the body on the brain?

Cannot say I have sen it no. Have a link by any chance?


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
As to the workings and Timing of the Avada Kadavra, I have no difference with you over it at this point.

Noted


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I suggest you check out the Underground Lake column, #32, at MuggleNet. The author goes into this and where it might lead a bit.
Also noted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
It's been my understanding that the bale in balefire is on a par with other root words your sources list as being connected to the god Bel, or the "fiery shining one," although I've heard the term used for more than just Beltaine fires.

As for woods, I was somewhat shocked to see the Angelic.tk website list hawthorne as acceptable. At least in Ireland there is a very old, very strong prohibition on cutting down hawthornes. I believe this is for ANY reason, even a magical one, though I may be mistaken in that. I learned of this in person from the very lips of Janet Farrar, one half of the Janet and Stewart Farrar duo (may his soul be smiling in the Summerlands), one of the founding couples of the modern witchcraft movement. She even related that some folks think the reason John deLorean's auto company ended so badly was because a hawthorne tree was cut down to make way for the manufacturing plant, which was in Ireland. Course all the trouble with cocaine probably didn't help.

About the wand woods and the balefire woods not matching up as you'd hoped, keep in mind much of modern Wicca is a recreation of history as it's believed to have happened and some is just plain old made up. I wouldn't base what the ancients might have used for their wands/staves on only Wiccan sources. Some are more into history, regardless of its shortcomings. Others just wing it.


Do you know of the reason for Hawthorne being sacrosanct? I would much like to add it to my magical mystical list of never ending notes. And it could come in handy in future discussions, never know.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
There was much discussion at the Celtic Mythology thread v.1 about the Oak and Holly Kings. The opposing calendar dates for Harry's and Voldemort's birthdays make for one clue that they might represent these two figures. BTW, did you have something specific in mind for the theme music?

I will have to browse through that thread a bit more then. I had a hard time keeping up with it at the time I first read through. As for the theme song, it was "Magic Man" by Heart. No particular reason why and I cannot say I enjoy the song or the band.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ummm.... should I be worried if I'm not confused?
Definitely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I hate to say it, but this could just be a dramatic tool.

Most likely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
You are still welcome to widen that circle by attending a Phoenix Festival. Not too large and the natives are quite friendly.

Robyn and I are pondering it. I must warn you I am every bit a social misfit. I would either be exceptionally untalkative or much to talkative.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Am I to understand from this that plywood would make an excellent shamanistic fetish material?
Perhaps, I cannot say I have ever talked to any mdf spirits, nor melamine spirits for that matter. Though a shaman is a bit like spiritual plywood so to speak.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Wouldn't it just be Harry's use of the mirror that involves ancestor worship? Ron's use of it turns out very differently.
Ron's is a bit tied into it, save his was not for their prescence but to escape their ghosts that overshadow his achievements.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
But wouldn't splinching be purposeful while fracturing is a result of a separate act? I think part of the damage of fracturing comes from the person being so focused on their murderous act that they are already divorced from the spiritual self, their soul, and not in an active mode of self/soul-preservation. Splinching though requires a great deal of "centering" on oneself to accomplish. Perhaps they would have similar outcomes, hiving off part of the soul, but it would seem they come at it from very different perspectives.

I was attempting to lump more in terms of outcome of the process than the process itself. Though yours is still more accurate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I seem to remember reading in an interview that she has a 12x12 grid she uses. Not sure if it's for plot development or to coordinate sources of inspiration and references

I will have to keep an eye out to see what purpose she uses it for, I guess.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ohhh, I knew there was a reason I liked you. Just my kind o' weird.

You too enjoy the pleasures of peanut butter and fruit loop sandwiches? I have not met many people who do not stare at me in disgust when I eat them but they are good!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
OK. Utter ignorance time. Is any of this something other than complete b***s*** on your part? Or is this actually some of their "religion"? I'd always figured they were out to lunch, but not necessarily dining at the "Restaurant at the End of the Universe."
Sadly enough that is at the heart of what Scientologists believe. For an interesting read, which I promise will be full of "no way" "uh uh" and "I refuse to believe it", check out this link

It really will dampen one's day to know there are people that willing to have sanity and reason dusted fromt he surface of their minds.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ummm.... I could well have missed something, but I had the impression the site was at least a bit tongue in cheek. Although.... any number of ideas brought up in a non-serious manner have ended up being used by folks who simply don't want to rely on systems with a lot of baggage attached.
I am never too quick on the uptake I fear


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
You know, unless they're aquatic, they'd have had to have been on the ark to make that work. Not too familiar with them, though. Aren't they the product of angels (four-faced seraphim) and humans? So did they vamoose to the heavens during the flood? If not, and they ain't aquatic, what gives? BTW, Barmy, there's another "four" for you.
Biblically, it is never specified which choir of angels spawned the nephillim. But yes, they are the offspring of angelic men and the mortal woment hey took a fancy to. There isn't any indication whether the nephillim could or could not do any vamoosery during the flood. I had always interpreted it as a possible wiping out during the flood and those over zealous angels coming back for mortal women round two.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ummm, muggle-born wizards?

Lol, maybe. Perhaps natural shamans?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I think you already answered your own question, but perhaps a mirror might prove helpful
I tend to avoid mirrors, not being overly fond of what it is I see looking back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Meant to ask about the part where you included the ocarina in this list. Does it mean anything if any one of these things really bugs a person? If the person just cannot manage to find a natural feel in one of them? Ocarinas just drive me bananas, although the others I find very pleasant. Something about their shrillness even when played by someone with actual skill just sets me on edge.
The ocarina tends to annoy me as well, just thought I would make a decent stab at the listing. It doesn't mean anything of import if a particular instrument gives you the sudden urge to gouge your own eyes out, save that you probably should not listen to it being played.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I just realized, what would Draco and his folks have experienced if they'd taken D-dore up on his offer to hide them so well no one would know they were alive? I've have heard and agree with theories that this potion would have been the method for achieving that. Would they all have come out of the potion-state nicer people? Or just scared beyond belief?
Maybe both, maybe neither. I would like to think that it would change them for the better. But I like to think that all people are capable of such a change.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
That reminds me, I got a copy of Nevill Drury's "The Shaman and The Magician" for Yule from no less than my husband's (converted Catholic) sister and her (life long Catholic) husband. I wonder if they read the jacket description or even noted the publisher's name, Arkana Books?

Lol, perhaps it was fated that you should receive the book. Or perhaps it is a good indicator that too many people judge a book by its cover.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Anyone familiar with Nixon's Viet Nam era shennigans and the lengths he went to in obscuring them will at least be thankful that W is kind/dumb enough to fill us in on so many of his own doings. If we were all so kind/dumb, his people wouldn't have anything to snoop for. BTW, rant away. It's so enjoyable to hear/see someone other than myself doing it.
I am familiar with them through reading. Bush does seem every bit a bumbling, less intelligent, less certain Nixon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Rust, while you currently shun TV, what knowledge of it you do have is... disturbing.

The sort of stuff that was on tv during my formative years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Yeah.... what was it the Weasley twins bought off him?

<runs to check>

"Venomous tentacula seeds. We need them for the Skivving Snackboxes but they're a Class C Non-Tradeable Substance so we've been having a bit of trouble getting hold of them." The seeds look like "shriveled black pods" with a "faint rattling noise... coming from them, even though they were completely stationary." The twins end up paying Dung ten galleons for a handful. Earlier, the twins had pocketed some of the doxies infesting #12's curtains so they could use their venom to experiment for the Skivving Snackboxes. Sounds like they might be go-to guys for potions and/or ingredients for same.

The puking pasties in particular catch my interest. Many entheogenic brews were also well known for being purgatives. And a side effect of most hallucinaginic poisons is that they induce vomitting as the body attempts to rid itself of the poison.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Not sure on the name but there is a similar real-life creature. I believe it's the lorus, or slow lorus. One digit is very long, nothing but skin over bone, that it uses for tapping trees with to find cavities full of termites and other bugs that it eats. A spearfinger monster indeed to the bugs, it would seem.

Ooo thanks, I will see if I cannot find some more info on it. Sounds like it could make an interesting pet



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Considering her own likely underworld connections from all her tabloid muckraking, Rita might be helpful in "hooking up" Harry for some potions ingredients.

Come to think of it, it would not be suprising if Rita and Mundungus are on first name terms with one another. He seems the sort of person she would delight in tying to important officials, and he seems the sort who would agree to it for a few galleons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Sounds likely as the scent of bitter almonds in tissue is one way to determine cyanide ingestion. BTW, only some people have the genes that allow this scent to be picked up. Shamanic legacy, do you suppose?


Perhaps, it is a bit like the copperhead snake. Some can smell it and some cannot. Smelling it runs on both my dad's and mum's side. Cannot say I have ever tried to sniff cyanide in a person's skin tissue before, but it would be curious if somehow the two things were tied outside of the obvious.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I'm not sure science is the problem, not in theory, so to speak. It's who's doing the science, who's paying for it - and WHY in both cases - that is the source of many problems.

It is the source of most really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
How can any of us not love such a wonderfully unique person like you, Rust? You're cool, you're brave, you know tons of cool sh*t, and you're funny as hell, too. (((big, big hug))) Didn't matter a whit to me what you said next; I'm cool with it. Maybe you'd like talking with one of my Phoenix phamily friends... his internet handle is Elderdragonkin. He considers himself kin to an Elder Dragon. I think you and my friend would get along famously. But.... how do dragons and wolves get on?



Thank you for the kind words. *hugs back*

As for your friend, it has been my experience that wolves and dragons get along exceptionally nicely within the community. No real reason why, just an observance.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaselDiva
Nagini's body is more powerful than being Vapormort..you can slilther..you can sink your fangs into people...a world of opportunity for bad, bad Voldy. Also when you are killed, the proximinty of your nearest horcrux may have something to do with it?
You have a few good points as usual. must do some mental digesting of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeaselDiva
By the way, Rowling noted on her website that the Sorting Hat is not a horcrux because horcrux's do not talk and sing bringing attention to themselves.

Oh well, it was a thought. Though the diary horcrux's entire purpose was to bring attention to itself as a means of revealing who the heir of Slytherin was.





Hope all is well with everyone. Goodnight and pleasant dreams.


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  #110  
Old January 12th, 2006, 4:15 am
barmy codger's Avatar
barmy codger  Undisclosed.gif barmy codger is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Alas, Wednesdays are my out-and-about-all-day days
Spirit journeys? Sorry, out-and-about reminded me of out-of-body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Wouldn't it just be Harry's use of the mirror that involves ancestor worship? Ron's use of it turns out very differently.
Good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
<Gee, barmy, didn't mean for you to snap your head up so fast you put a kink in your neck!>
I had to read your comments four or five times at two different times of day before I got it. Don't worry about the neck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Do you suppose forcing his followers to read his collected sci-fi works might help to deprogram them? If it didn't bore them to death?
Didn't seem to work with Mr Travolta who produced (I think) and starred in a sci-fi film based on a Hubbard story. By the way, I heard once that the scientologists operate their own very up-to-date motion picture laboratory, so they know the value of brainwashing, er- I mean public relations. Any scientologists who may be reading this, please don't take my comments too seriously. For all I know your beliefs may be correct. I've never asked before, are scientologists vegetarians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Does anyone with more knowledge than I wish to comment on the sky battles of the "gods" in the Hindu Rig Veda? I'm not buying the alien thing, but there's some interesting imagery there nonetheless, as is the same with Ezekiel in the Bible.
Not aliens.
Quote:
These are authentic verses from the Indian Epics:

'Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana,
hurled a single projectile
charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame,
as bright as ten thousand suns,
rose with all its splendor.'

...etc.
This is from 'Vimana Aircraft of Ancient India & Atlantis' by David Hatcher Childress. So I know it's true. (insert Smiley of Irony) Curiously, the book has illustrations showing some ancient images and compares them to aircraft, and a book I got as a Solstice gift, 'Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy' by Clark Heinrich, shows the same symbols and says they are mushrooms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Thus my alchemical lack of experience shows itself grinning stupidly to the world lol.
You're overreacting. First of all, it was popularly thought in the alchemy thread (maybe 'popular' isn't the right term for that discussion) that Harry is doing the Great Work, and when I suggested he wasn't, people disagreed with that idea. So if you disagree you are in good company. Second, I may be wrong. There is a lot in the story to give the impression Harry and Voldemort are 'twins' (particularly where Harry stares in the mirror and sees Voldemort looking back), and there is a lot showing Harry doing shamanic things and being an alchemical 'seeker'. So it is fair to think of him that way. To say he is not doing the Great Work, I have to reconcile these other factors and I can't beyond a certain degree. So some of my statements about Harry can be inconsistent. I take comfort in thnking that's not any worse than Ms Rowling's inconsistencies in the story.

Still, he has attained the Stone, and he did that in the very first story. This agrees with what JohnDL pointed out that the first book informs about the whole series. It also is another reason I felt there was a reverse structure. To account for his getting the Stone without being an alchemist, I have to sidestep and say Harry symbolises the process, and following Harry leads the reader through transformation. That isn't an idea of my own -it was applied to other novels by another commentator.

As an aside, another movie reference: 'La Bete Humaine' by Jean Renoir is about a French train driver (engineer to yanks), who kills. 'The Human Beast', a title to interest readers here. I just learned it is based on a novel of Emile Zola which I haven't read. But I saw the film twice years ago. Apart from the realistic scenes of the trains, which appeal to me who likes riding trains, there is one moment when the great actor Jean Gabin, who plays the engineer, happens to pause when he sees himself in a mirror -just like Harry seeing Voldemort facing him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
Somebody (I think on layers) noted that a basilisk just does not need that much by way of interior design.
Me, me. That was me long ago -at least I was one of them, and I thought it was like a temple. Now I think the Chamber of Secrets was strictly a book 2 phenomenon. I'd be pleasantly surprised if it shows up again, but still surprised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
What is wonderful about this thread is the rich variety of faith experiences and paradigms that we bring to this encounter. What will be the most fruitful, HP wise, will be those intersection points where all these different traditions connect. What will be the most enriching for us as human beings, is reaching and looking at life from other viewpoints.
Weaslee-Deeva (I'm reading book 4 and imitating Mme Maxime), you're such a good sport. You've said you're a seminary graduate and I would guess you're uncomfortable from the many hits Christianity has taken in this discussion.. I truly admire your tolerance and that you still keep up your contributions.
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Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
This is a very interesting find, Barmy. I haven't had much time to deeply contemplate this, but what litle I could absorb provided a quick shock to my system.
It's heartening to find interest in this, from you and others. I posted the link before but had little or no response. Another page there might interest you and I recommend it to everyone. http://www.sangraal.com/AMET/worldtree.html It is a discussion of the world tree. It is where I saw a reference to a 'Green Language'. Up to now I had found no other mention of it. But a search has just shown up another essay by the same author, elaborating about the 'Green Language'. It is something I think would appeal particularly to you, WeasleDiva, as it involves lateral thinking with wordplay. http://www.jwmt.org/v1n4/readlight.html
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Fulcanelli clearly understood this, as he shows when he states that argot, the initiation of the Argonauts, is but "one of the forms derived from The Language of the Birds." This Ur-language, Fulcanelli insists, is the common language of initiation and illumination behind cultural expressions as different as the Christian, the Inca, the medieval troubadours and the ancient Greeks. And traces of it can be found in the dialects of Picardy and Provence, and most important of all, in the language of the Gypsies.
Gypsies are a story element in 'Notre Dame of Paris', 'Jane Eyre' and 'The Moonstone' (Ms Rowling's summer reading recommendation 2004), among others I can't remember right now.
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Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
This gave me chills when I think about ickel Ron in Sorcerer's Stone wearing his maroon sweater with the big "R."
I get the feeling that if Hermione dumped Ron you'd be first in line to catch him on the rebound. Very good about the 'R' and I just noticed 'I's at both ends. The end is the beginning.
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
You too enjoy the pleasures of peanut butter and fruit loop sandwiches? I have not met many people who do not stare at me in disgust when I eat them but they are good!
My fave used to be peanut butter and liverwurst pate. I got the same reactions. That was before I became an adult and way before I became vegetarian. Which reminds me:
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
Whereas deer just give us Lyme Disease (and venison, delicious amazing venison)
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
I do not practice Tibetan, nor Pure-Land. If I had to lay claim to a title I would say Theravada. But as I have never taken the three refuges I will not lay any claim.
Choose the way that allows venison. Most only allow carrots. You're a wolf, not a rabbit.
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
You wouldn't say that if you saw how horrendous I trot. I am much better at lurching. And even a bit profecient at traipsing.
In the good old days, before my time even, people were closer to animals and danced the turkey trot and the fox trot.


  #111  
Old January 13th, 2006, 12:52 am
Emerald63  Female.gif Emerald63 is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

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Originally Posted by rust_loup
The reason I broke into a long winded rant on Tibetan Tantra
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Since we were talking about dung and about sailing I guess breaking wind is okay.
Barmy that was a real.... stinker.



(January 2nd)
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
And last, I lament the missing feminine presence here.... Emerald63 like a siren promising pleasure to come, but nothing now.
Oh my, a siren am I? Don't think I've ever been said to be so appealing! My apologies for my problematic absence. (Or would that be my emblematic absinth? Thought a nice esoteric pun might help soothe the savage breast. )



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Originally Posted by rust_loup
If we see the spirit piece as a power intrusion, we have many horcrux like similarities but it is not quite what I would consider horcrux material. For starters, the power intrustion scenario keeps Harry in control of himself for the most part as opposed to being over powered by the horcrux which would feature extreme independant thinking and the desire to take over. Also were it a horcrux then Harry would probably share a mental communion with it and know there was a second mind striving for control of his body, the two minds could probably even "talk" with one another. Whereas, with a power intrustion it is simply lodged into a portion of his spirit body and is incapable of doing much other than causing problems such as sickness. It would be apparant that the intrusion would reside in the scar and would explain how many of his problems relate to head pains and other such funnesses. The problem with this is that it does less to explain his gaining of the spirits abilities. It is exceptionally rare, though not unheard of, that one does gain some from a power intrusion. In such cases it is almost a symbiotic relationship. This power intrusion idea brings up, once again, the similarities of Harry and Lupin, who theoretically has a similar such power intrusion.
What makes you think that a horcrux soul-fragment would be able to communicate with Harry, or that it would necessarily try to take over his body? Presumably Nagini still has some bit of herself left, if indeed she is also a horcrux. I have the sense that the fragments have neither consciousness nor will and most especially not the ability to act. (Fragments were placed there by another, their originator. "Intrusion" sounds to me like the soul piece acted on its own to get there. Am I wrong in that?) The diary was unique in seemingly being able to act.... at least where the other inanimate horcrux objects are concerned. But might a fragment within a living host be able to think and act?

Even if true, couldn't a soul fragment just "lie in wait," quietly observing for any number of reasons, then take over if or when it saw a good opportunity for gain? (This could account for the almost life-long fragment in Harry, yet Harry not being aware of a conscious presence.) For that matter, if it could challenge Harry for power, why not just do an Imperious Curse type set-up and get Harry to kill himself? Would that be impossible because a Voldemort soul fragment would be as helpless against Harry's love as the body-encased Voldemort? And if the fragment found this out first hand, might it not be able to at least make the body-encased Voldemort aware that, for some reason, it/they are unable to damage Harry? After all, Voldemort only heard part of the prophecy. If he were to find out the part about the "power the Dark Lord knows not" he might be able to at least devise a better attack strategy, even if he could not overcome this power.

If you doubt a soul fragment would be willing to go down in flames along with Harry in an induced suicide, consider this: if it has cognitive abilities it would know that other fragments would still survive and that its originator would, too. This further begs the question, though, whether conscious, cognizant soul fragments would still consider themselves part of a greater whole and work cooperatively or if they would battle one another, just as their originator would battle any "outside" challenger.

I think if a soul fragment had the qualities you imply it does, it would long ago have done something to either take over, damage, or destroy Harry, unless of course it holds self-preservation above protecting its originator. If that's the case, conscious soul fragments wouldn't do the "real" Voldemort much good and he would likely never have created them. So I'm sticking with my original sense that horcrux soul fragments are not conscious, cognizant, or have a will and the ability to act.


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
Under normal circumstances such an intrustion should have taken in the entirety of Voldemort's soul, but I would imagine with the many many many deaths he has caused, he has such pieces of spirit to spare.
I'm confused; if a spirit intrusion can sometimes involve only a portion of the intruder's soul, then how is that different from a horcrux? And, in general, wouldn't it be the intrusion situation that would allow the portion to be conscious, rather than the way you imagined a horcrux soul fragment is? Wouldn't a whole soul trying to reside in another's body be more powerful than merely a fragment? Why would an intact soul simply lodge in and affect one part of its victim's body? Wouldn't an intact soul be more likely to be conscious? And then wouldn't it prefer to push out the original "owner" of the body and take it as its own? If it's vacated its own body, for whatever reason, it's going to need a new one at some point, right? But a fragment MUST preserve its host, at least till it has somewhere else to go or it, too, will perish. (Except in the case of there being multiple fragments, when it might accept self-destruction.) Seems to me that it's the horcrux fragment that would symbiotic (as a partial soul intrusion would be) while the intact intrusion-soul would be parasitic. It would have to be, or it would be self-defeating from the get go.


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
And on the dung, do you think Crookshanks' fascination with dungbombs is of any import?
Now that's a cool question! What are those things made from? Why do they smell like dung? Do they contain it, an essential chemical of it, or merely something that smells like it? Animals in general have a keen interest in the droppings of others, especially olfactory giants like cats. So.... is he fascinated for the usual reasons, or because something's "not quite right" about this "dung," as far as his kneazle-cat nose knows?


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
I will propose that Harry is Voldemort's spiritual heir and is thus also the next heir of Slytherin(for good or ill)..... This puts Harry in an interesting position as he is also Dumbledore's spiritual heir. Both these spiritual parents have given Harry unique spiritual gifts and have both ensured that he will become the most extraordinary sort of wizard and that his choice will dictate the outcome of two spiritual legacies. Harry has the opportunity to continue the legacy of the snake or of the phoenix.
Perhaps Harry is due to become a new sort of spirit being... the feathered serpent. Where, oh where, did I see that reference to a "snake-bird"??? Was it on our thread? In a book? Argh! As the spiritual heir of two diametrically opposed mentors, Harry has the ability to act as either would.... or in a new, synthesized way. There's that quote from Book 1, Chapter 1 where McG tells D-dore that he would have every power that Voldemort does, if he weren't so noble. We know he wasn't perfect, but we've been given a lot more evidence to show Harry is even less perfect. Will he be as powerful as Voldemort because he is less noble than D-dore when it comes to using whatever is necessary to defeat Voldemort? Or because he will be able to fuse the two spiritual inheritances into something new?



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Originally Posted by rust_loup
So essentially, Harry not being the blood ancestor of Slytherin does not stop him from being the next heir of Slytherin as the title wll be his through spirtual legacy.
There's been a TON of discussion on whether "heir" means blood line only, chosen heirs, either, or a combination. BTW, I found it interesting you made the same slip JKR did and referred to a "living" character as the "ancestor" of Slytherin.


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
We also see that Rita has a habit of sucking on the pen before making up her stories. Could this indicate a hallucination and that she actually convinces herself that what she writes is what really happened?
Interesting thought. There are those sugar quills one can buy at Honeydukes (an interesting name in itself). She might just be doing it out of habit or there might be other types of edible quills.


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
That is interesting because there are so many stories about shamans and witches entering into animal bodies and becoming trapped there. And I vaguely remember a story about a bear spirit that became human; different than a bear spirit in a human body, but, the notion is related.
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
That is a part of the appeal of shamanism to me. Few beliefs come close to explaining how and why I am. Shamanism is among the closest. Though, I daresay you lot now understand my fascination with shapeshifter lore, and a bit of my nephillim were shapeshifters theory.
The more I think about it, the more I'm hoping some of you either have read, or would be willing to read, Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. His portrayal of witches is highly sympathetic (as opposed to the bumbling and sometimes swell-headed sorcerers) and includes "borrowing" as he calls it. It's when one of the older, very talented witches "borrows" the body of an animal and goes off to reconnoiter through its eyes and, to some degree, thought processes. The trouble is, if the witch (Pratchett's are always female; sorcerers are male and quite elitist) stays in the animal host's body too long, she will "lose herself" and begin to forget she started out as human, will wish to stay, and will eventually become stuck. It's why Granny Weatherwax, who's fond of borrowing, always leaves a sign on her chest asking someone to wake her up if she isn't back in 'x' number of hours.

Pratchett's witches are not concerned with status and are highly aware of and centered on nature, as opposed to the urbanized, organized sorcerers, who have their own institution, Unseen University. (The author's ability to pun is legendary and his word play in general is hysterical.) Come to think of it, the witches are shamanic while the sorcerers are much more like ceremonial magicians. The witches don't appear in all of the books (about 2 dozen total). The sorcerers don't either, but they do show up more often.

And I'm beginning to think there may be more to some of Pratchett's name choices, the ones that aren't outright silly anyway. I've already mentioned the Hogfather and Hogswatch Night. Additionally, the youngest witch is named Magret, which sounds like maybe a non-English plant or animal name. But the main city featured is.... Ankh-Morpork. Talk about combining the sacred and the mundane! Umm, did I mention his genre is humorous fantasy built on a framework of social satire?

As Pratchett was the widest selling living British author... until JKR... it would be interesting to compare their works to see if Pratchett was getting up to some of this before Jo. (I think I've heard rumblings about him not necessarily being fond of either A) Ms. Rowling's work or B) the splash that accompanies it, but don't quote me on that.)


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
And of these spirits born in a different body, most never come to realise what they are. I chalk it up to the world we live in, which seems averse to things not "normal".
Ahh, yes. The "Vernon Dursley" syndrome. (See also this thread: "Why are the Dursleys so Medieval?")


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
[A mental construct, gestalt, or significant pattern] leads to traps of hunting for reasons to believe it instead of analysing reasons not too, which is more effective in soul searching.
Do I understand you correctly that asking "Why shouldn't I?" is more effective and less limiting than asking "Why should I?" It's interesting that this illustrates the "faith in oneself" viewpoint that is so often shot down by social convention or Western religious ideology, as opposed to the most common answers to "Why should I?" which include "because it's what's expected by others or they'll reject me," "because the law says I have to or I'll go to jail," and "because God/the Church says I have to or I'll go to hell."

It also reminds me of something a British friend explained a while back, the difference between British common law and its heirs and the Napoleonic law code, upon which the new European Union is structured. Under Napoleonic law, one can only do what one is explicitly allowed to do as covered by law. That makes for a TON of laws and ignores the fundementally variable, non-categorizable aspect of real life. But common law evolved to let the individual decide what he/she wants to do, with only mutually agreed upon restricted activities specified.

Very different viewpoints....... I sure know which ones I prefer.


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
I would rather contemplate things which could convince myself out of things.
Well..... that's pretty much inviting change, something most folks are terrified of, especially, but not limited to, change in the greater accepted order of society. Guess you're pretty much an all-around "Oh ye of little faith" type guy, huh Rust? Works for me. Otherwise everything would always stay the same and that would be b-ohhhh-ring. He who questions himself stands to gain the most wisdom, say I.


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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
I can't help it. Everytime we discuss this [mushrooms growing on dung] I think of Karl Rove.
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
We need to get someone to do drumrolls for you.
Drumrolls, Rust, or rim shots? (And no tacky puns, please!)

BTW, Barmy, I seem to have missed exactly why this topic brings Rove to mind for you, other than the general likeness. Something specific there?


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
Most of my anti-Christian statements are in relation to the Christians who really haven't got a clue what they believe, let alone what anyone else does. Sadly to say, that group seems to be steadily growng to a majority as many stop reading for themselves and begin to go on what others say.
Mine are for the same reasons. And it is sad.... what ever happened to the legacy of learning and questioning, seeking to better understand God and themselves, rather than just parrot the preacher? (My apologies to parrots.) At one time Men of the Cloth of some denominations were known for their scholarly pursuits, both about religion and otherwise. Is this just another example of the "lowest common denominator" that our society already has too many of? Not expecting any answers to this, just felt the need to pose the rhetorical questions. And that there are no definable answers, let alone apparent solutions, is one reason some of us feel the need on occasion, Barmy, to express our frustration with the perpetrators of this phenomenon. No matter what you call it, it's willful submission to brainwashing. And that's coming from a big fan of TV!

But I would like to say that I do know a few Christians who still seek knowledge in all forms without feeling threatened in their faith by what they find. They are, to a person, more tolerant and seem, to a nonbeliever anyway, better followers of their espoused faith than those who do not seek. I count Shewoman and justaHPfan among them, although there are others who are not members of CoS. I am proud to know them and value what I learn from them, both in general and about their faith as practiced by those with love in their hearts. They understand that that which is never tested will, at some point, atrophy.


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Originally Posted by rust_loup
It is a tad lonely. Perhaps we should take a leson from the neanderthal, go club some women over the head, and drag them back here to our cave?
Hmmm..... best not be expecting to "get any" any time soon with that attitude, Bucko. And you can forget about a hot meal, too.


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
In most cultures, women always have important things to do. Its the men who sit around all day and take drugs...
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Originally Posted by rust_loup
I am telling you guys, we need clubs.

Hrm, I wonder if that plays into the concept of dance clubs and clubbing?
Effective as clubs may be, hearts work even better. Of course if you still find yourselves "a tad lonely," diamonds can buy you some company. And in the end, if it still doesn't work out, those spades might come in real handy. For either party.



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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
It was late for me, too, but for me every waking moment is an opportunity for fuzzy thinking.
You know, it's a good idea to empty that lint trap now and then. Not only does it reduce the risk of fire, it lets the hot air flow more effectively.

EDIT: To Rust's comment of "Carpe Diem" in regards to fuzzy thinking.... shouldn't that read "Carpet Diem"?


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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
I sound like an ent.
I shall restrain myself and not persue the myriad "wood" jokes I might otherwise attempt, considering my manic mood today. I fear they would be tree-mendously inappropriate on a family site.


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Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
The whole bit about anti-horcrux (for lack of a better term) just means I am still looking for a way for Rowling to resurrect one of the good guys within the limits she has created. I can't believe that Voldemort is the only character in her universe who rates a comeback.
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
....I would not have thought that a 'resurrection' should happen to others because I thought Voldemort was the focus.
It was my take that Rowling's good guys wouldn't want to be resurrected, as it goes against the "natural order of things" and always smacks of the Dark Arts. As only bad guys practice the DA, only bad guys would seek or accept a resurrection. If she does see fit to have that happen to one of the good guys, she's gonna have a lot of es-planin' to do.


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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
It takes some stretching but all this (brain-injured yet now-psychic Peter Hurkos) makes me think of Voldemort and 'in essence divided.' The reason I said it was inconsistent with the previous view is because this comparison would make Voldemort the one who recovers from an injury and becomes a shaman and healer.
Couldn't Harry be the one to take Hurkos's role? He survived an A-K, recovered and now may turn out to be a shaman and healer to Voldemort. At the very least he will heal the wizarding world of the disease that is Voldemort by "shamaning" him out of this world and into the next one. And I've heard the comment that the 'in essence divided' description might apply to Harry alone.



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Originally Posted by rust_loup
Back to "physician heal thyself" could this not apply to Harry making him both the changer and the changed?
Now there's an esoteric thought! Very Zen, too.

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Originally Posted by rust_loup
Quick post for any interested Forth and Hogmanay
Did you notice the guy with the white beard in red, just off to the left? Would that be Santa or..... the Hogfather???



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Originally Posted by doug_rogers
The last few posts were for me like Homer slapping his forehead.
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Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
I suppose you don't mean the poet.
Hey.... you don't suppose that's how he went blind?



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Originally Posted by JohnDL
General wierdness warning...

Went here: http://farshores.org/ct01.htm
(O_o) Just reading your excerpt left me looking like the smilie you used. Don't want to chance further exposure by visiting the whole site. (But I will just to ascertain the referent for "MMM")

'W' a..... witch? Now I'm really insulted. (Umm, not by you John.) Why couldn't those goofballs have picked somebody cool, like George Washington, George Washington Carver, or....... anyone other than 'W'?

BTW, there's a Greenwich Road down in Wichita (pronounced "Green Witch") and let me tell you, there ain't no cool people like green witches, or any other kind of witches, anywhere near it. Although it is close to the "Ar-Kansas" River.

(Mark just keeps repeating balefully, "There's witches in Wichita...." "Yes," I say, "but they don't all congregate [coven-ate?] on Greenwich Road just because it has the word "green" in it." Duh. Nope, they're over on Meridian Street leying low.)


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
"Animals Used As Drugs" http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/var004.htm
Excerpt:
"The seventeenth-century alchemist and physician J.B. van Helmont described alchemical research with animals as a quest for the 'Animal Stone' which is a 'mineral vertue' obtainable from the 'natural superfluities and excrements' of animals. Excrements should here be understood to mean all bodily secretions, not just faeces and urine."
Sooo.... maybe Dung is the shamanic process/philosopher's stone and he'll produce some mind-altering drug that will cure Harry of his the soul infestation and transform Voldemort into a really nice guy.


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Originally Posted by JohnDL
Back to Mundungus for a moment; He's a dirty, low-down criminal, he lies low or goes underground to escape notice; he steals Sirius' (actually Harry's) silver goblets (connected to? Why silver, and why goblets?)
No idea on the alchemical possibilities, but in Pagan circles the goblet (aka chalice; each can=cauldron) represents the feminine because of its likeness to the womb. Because of this it is associated with the ever-renewing life force. It is a standard ritual object. (Male energy is represented by the sword and/or athame, a ritual or "air" knife.) Numerous cauldrons in mythology are associated with immortality, resurrection, or infinite knowledge. One of knowledge belongs to the goddess Cerridwen, who is associated with the moon (and hence silver), death, renewal, and great magical power. (Her Greek counterpart is Hecate.) She also is the main player in one of the greatest animal "borrowing" stories ever. It is the basis for Merlin teaching the young Arthur by having him inhabit borrowed animals.

Silver has almost too many connotations to consider.... purity, the feminine, the moon, nighttime, water (as opposed to the gold of the sun).

Another likely factor is that the Black family silver was goblin-wrought. Dung had noticed and commented on the possibility of it being solid silver in OotP, looking even more hungrily at it when Sirius, I believe, mentioned it being goblin-wrought as well.


Also, I forgot to mention that my friend Maya Heath had a section in her book (from which I quoted about colored stones) about metals. What with metallurgy being so important in alchemy, I imagine several of you may be interested in the whole lot, so I'll include the complete table. BTW, Maya makes her living by designing and making jewelry (and by writing, obviously). Her repertoire is varied and includes representations of dozens of gods and goddesses (as well as animals) from more pantheons than you can shake a stick at. She has the dubious distinction of quite often having her designs copied without permission.
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From ENERGIES: A Book of Basics
Metals have qualities similar to crystals. This is because when metals are worked and drawn, their structure "lines up" in an extremely tight and regular way, allowing it to easily transmit energy of all sorts. This property is called conductivity and works just as well for subtle forms of energy as it does for electricity. When you are choosing or working with a stone, you should take into account the properties of the metal that holds it. This does not mean that you can only have the stone set in its corresponding metal. It means that you should consider the way in which you want a stone's energy to be broadcast or made available for your use. Some metallic energies are very focused and piercing; some are gentle and permeating. Some, such as iron, are generally not suitable to be worked into a setting for a stone or are not available.


CENTER:Crown
COLOR: Clear; Purple
CRYSTAL: Quartz, Diamond, Tourmaline, (Siberite)
METAL: Platinum
CALLING: Angel; Higher Self

CENTER: Brow
COLOR: Violet
CRYSTAL: Amethyst
METAL: Electrum
CALLING: Monarch

CENTER: Throat
COLOR: Blue
CRYSTAL: Sapphire
METAL: Silver
CALLING: Seer/Teacher

CENTER: Heart
COLOR: Green
CRYSTAL: Emerald
METAL: Copper
CALLING: Healer

CENTER: Solar Plexus
COLOR: Yellow
CRYSTAL: Topaz
METAL:Gold
CALLING: Dancer

CENTER: Belly
COLOR: Orange
CRYSTAL: Citrine
METAL: Bronze
CALLING: Warrior

CENTER: Base
COLOR: Red
CRYSTAL: Ruby / Garnet
METAL: Iron
CALLING: Artisan / Smith

[I really do wish there were some way to set up a table or columns here! Could have taken up much less space. ]

[I'll give the longer quotes just for those metals associated with the house colors we discussed earlier.]

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Iron & Steel
Iron and steel correspond to the color red. Steel is the only metal that when worked will reach a truly crystalline structure and, beause of this, will draw and cycle energy of itw own nature in the same way crystals do. Steel represents the nature of war and command, and can be used to access the primal life energies of the physical plane. Its nature could be described as aboth warlike and passionate. Iron and steel are known as the metal of Mars. It is rare to find a stone set directly into steel becasue of the difficulty inworking with so hard a metal. Even when stones ae set into the hilt and pommels of a blad, the hilt and pommel will be made of a more malleable substance such as wood or bronze. Iron and steel are very demanding energies to work with, and it is not reccommended that your wear them in line with your vertical axis for any length of teim such as general daily wear.

[I am reminded of the Sword of Gryffindor, although it is described as "gleaming silver" with "rubies the size of eggs" set into its handle. The sword is not likely to be made of silver, which is much too soft for such an item. The term "silver" could well refer to the color of steel. And although the rubies are indeed set into the handle, the other associations between steel and red all fit.]


Gold
Gold is sometimes called the metal of dominion because of its ability to drive and focus any charge with great clarity. Gold's nature is active, and it will magnify and enhance the qualitites of any stone set in it. It is also referred to as *** metal of the Sun - both because of its color and because it operates throughout the enrgy system. Especially when worn over the heart, gold will extend the influence of whatever stone is set in it throughout the entire energy system just as the sun's light brings its life giving energy to virtually all aspects of life on Earth. It also acts to bring about a balance between all the energy points because it encourages even and harmonic flow of energy.

[Note that Helga Hufflepuff's cup, a likely horcrux, is of gold and that gold's corresponding color is yellow, the Hufflepuff house color.]


Copper
Copper has the energy of the union of rose and green rays and, as such, contains a balance of the energies of the heart and base chakras. It is an excellent conductor but does not retain a charge for long. If worn for a long time, it will tend to take on the nature of its wearer and become a strongly personal talisman. When it is worn or worked with any other metals, its nature tends to add a mellowing influence and flexibility to otherwise harsh or incompatible or "brittle" vibrations. Astrologically, copper is called the metal of Venus.

[I don't remember any mention of copper in the books, but the idea that the metal that corresponds to Slytherin green also has within itself the rose (red) of Gryffindor, as well as that color's associated chakra influence, once again makes me wonder if there will be a meeting of minds between members of the two houses.]


Silver
Silver is called the metal of the Moon because of its subtle and flowing nature. it has a subtle, peaceful, and passive nature and will not "color" or interfere with the nature of the stones that are set in it. It will help distribute the influence of energies throughout the system and to make those energies easily acceptable to the system as a whole.

[Lots of people have suggested the "tarnished tiara" under which Harry hid the Half-Blood Prince's potions book in the Room of Requirement might have belonged to Rowena Ravenclaw and could be a horcrux. A tiara sits atop the head, where reason and intellect, the ideal Ravenclaw qualities, are seated. The adjective "tarnished" probably means it's made of silver. (Never seen a brass or bronze tiara and gold doesn't tarnish.) There is no further description but I'm not going to be the least surprised if it turns out to be studded with sapphires.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishFaerie
Yes, Barmy, Voldemort is the focus, but I both Ginny and Ron have already had mini resurrections of sorts…maybe paving the way for a major resurrection of a good guy in book 7?
Hmmm...... this might make me rethink my "good guys stay dead because it doesn't go against the natural order of things" theory. Maybe.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishFaerie
your phrase ‘lowest common denominator’ is interesting -- it reminds me of ‘prima materia.’
Made me think of the "lowest common dementornator" or some such. Hmmm.... a combination dementor and terminator. Gee, I knew Schwarzeneger was evil... but this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
...someone physically returning from the dead. That would really annoy some who have firm religious beliefs.
"Annoy"? Cute word usage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
The old science fiction film 'The Day the Earth Stood Still' had the alien visitor revived from the dead but he pointed out it was for an indefinite period, like borrowed time. The extra commentary on the DVD said that was to avoid ruffling feathers, otherwise the character would have been resurrected unconditionally.
Now here's a thought... all the uber-fundies who just hate JKR... would they be less likely to throw a fit about a resurrection if it were of a magical creature rather than a human character? I can already think of one (repeatedly) resurrecting creature, Fawkes. (But, of course, as he does this all on his own, he most certainly must be a demonic critter in their way of thinking.)

I don't know that any other creatures have died, at least not yet, although Buckbeak, er, um 'Witherwings' had a sort of resurrection, too. In Ootp during the fight at the Ministry, the Fountain of Magical Brethren is destroyed and the Centaur actually "buys it" as an individual (as do the witch and wizard). Foreshadowing, perhaps? Are the thestrals a sort of resurrected or un-dead creature? They sure are different from all the other magical creatures.

But the really cool one would be Nagini. Her being de-horcruxed without being killed in the process might count as a resurrection. It would also symbolize the redemption of "the" serpent and would even fit with the crucified snakes JohnDL spoke of so long ago.

Anyone agree there are possibilities here? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
The movie also has Ruby Rhod using the expression 'Green' as good, ok, or understood, and the word is used often at one point. But this is not in the printed script. So we have a character Ruby Rhod(ium) who wears roses for a collar using the term 'green'.
Any mention or visuals of copper?



Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Dispensing with parts of Soul does not diminish magical power.
Soul parts in and of themselves display no magical power.
Magic requires body, will, training, knowledge, a human conciousness to manifest.
There is some mental connection between Harry and Voldemort.

If Soul does not carry magical abilities and Harry has some of Voldemort's magical abilities, then there is some other explanation. (I've been down this road. No canon, all speculation, and it only gets more complicated). If Soul carries magical abilities, and Harry has some of Voldemort's abilities then Harry has some part of Voldemort's soul.
Very interesting. My own thoughts given earlier are no less complicated (at least for me) so I shall have to consider them again in light of what you say here and others' comments on both. Good thoughts, Doug.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
3) Harry in the pumpkin patch feeling the hit and hurt by the stone thrown by Hermione which hits and hurts Harry in Hagrid's shed. I think, in light of a number of ideas, that 3 is it. Also this interesting bit: In the movie, Harry and Hermione return to the hospital ward, Harry, joking, says, "Honestly Ron how can somebody be in two places at once?

'Pumpkin Harry' feels 'Hagrid's hut Harry's' hurt because they SHARE A SOUL.
I've always been under the impression that 'Pumpkin Harry' wasn't actually feeling the stone hit him, that he was simply sharply reminded of what it had felt like when he was still the only Harry, the Harry that is now "Hagrid's hut Harry." As he remembers what it felt like, he rubs his head and comments, "Ouch! That hurt." Not "That hurts" as he would have if he were feeling it at the time, in the pumpkin patch. The reason Harry was "in two places at once" was because of the time turner, not because he's sharing a soul with anyone, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Harry has a soul. It just happens to be Voldemort's. And, it is our choices that show who we are.
Sorry, but if that's the case how in the world has Harry ever managed to make a single selfless choice, let alone lots of them???


Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
No soul is inherently good or evil. These are qualities we ascribe to intent and action.
So you're saying Voldemort's soul is neither good nor evil? Yes, I agree with that. But have we ever seen him choose to act in a selfless manner? No. Regardless of his soul's neutrality, his experience and personality, which were fully formed at the time the A-K backfired, have left him completely out of touch with whatever good may be lurking at the bottom of his soul barrel. Why (and through what effect) would any part of him that is now in Harry act differently??? Because it's affected by Lily's love? The Prophecy specifically states that the one who can vanquish Voldemort has a power the Dark Lord "knows not." I kinda think hanging out in Harry's body, in intimate contact with Lily's love, would mean he would know that power.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
How could Voldemort's soul long for Harry's family in the Mirror of Erised? And how can Harry do anything 'Harry'-like if he has no soul and therefore has no sense of self as 'Harry', as Lupin, in your quote, pointed out would happen to a person without a soul?
Thank you, Barmy. I knew what I was talking about but I appreciate the further examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Do you think Dumbledore in all his conversations with Harry, was aware he was addressing Voldemort's soul? Then why did he avoid Harry all through book 5?
And why didn't he avoid him in all the other books?



Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
The red and white rang a bell with me, something to do with Celtic mythology. Then I remembered it's a characteristic of Celtic creatures from the otherworld.

http://www.-personal.umich.edu/~lars/rel375.html
[A very nice quote in post #59 which I've left out here]

The glittering white animals puts me in mind of a patronus.
On that last part, I had the same thought myself. Wrote a whole editorial on it. If you haven't had a chance to work through all of our v.1, keep plugging away. We all noted the red and white connections, not just in Celtic creatures but also some of JKR's critters, mushrooms, and a number of other things.

And in case you missed it the last time I said it, I LOVE your screen name!!! My husband and I both get quite the laugh whenever I discuss your posts with him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
....from a [u]luthier[/i] I know....
Hmmm.... I think my typ-o kink filter may be out of whack. Could you clarify the underlined term, please?


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Never had lung problems but some woods make my skin feel uncomfortably puffy and clog my sinuses by producing phlegm, so I avoid woodworking even though it was enjoyable and useful to do. Pay heed, rust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Heeded
Considering your.... considerable history of lung problems, and in case you didn't already know, milk products are known for producing extra phlegm. (Hey, the rest of you, this is serious - no lactating Fleur jokes, got it?!) Anyway, avoiding them, at least whenever you have bronchitis or the like, might be a good idea.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
General wierdness warning...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Suddenly I feel that I may not be as weird a person as I imagined.
As I'm sure the article's author could tell you, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Weirdness is in the eye of the Beholder, especially when it's one of those hundred-eyed jobbies from D&D. (Sorry, needed to fill my weirdness quotient for the day. )


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
The Death Eaters seem to like to encourage this fear though as witnessed by the battle at the ministry. They themselves do not speak his name any longer(which seems oddly like a reminder of the Jewish tradition of not speaking god's name).

I like to think this is simply a play of power. In using the name they are exercising control, even if just sybolically, over Voldemort. This can be likened to traditions of how knowing a person's secret name gives you power over them. I think this is why saying his name is often attributed to the more powerful wizards. They have no fear of him, and also they show that lack of fear. This is unnerving and irritating to Voldemort who wants to be without equal. And perhaps he thinks himself above names too and is seeking to be so rare as to be a nameless power.
Was the Jewish tradition to keep from attempting to have control over Him, and thus commit sacrilege? Or was it to keep from empowering Him? I thought that speaking the true name of God was supposed to invoke unimaginable amounts of His power - not command it, though - and thus endanger yourself and all around you. In a much more direct and certain way, speaking that name backwards was supposed to "undo" the world and bring about its utter destruction. But... is that last part from scripture, religious mythology, or non-religious popular folklore? And have I gotten the speaking the true name bit wrong?

And isn't it also interesting that, more than being irked at being called Voldemort by those who do not fear him, he is irked at Dumbledore for calling him Tom?


Rust said to IrishFaerie:
Quote:
Trying to worm your way out and now back-handing barmy. tsk tsk.
But wouldn't worming her way out still be better than a slug-fest? Worming is certainly less violent. Unless either is acceptable, depending on whose medicine one carries? (Uh-huh, uh-huh, thass right...... I's-nailed it. )


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
Soul parts in and of themselves display no magical power.... Magic requires body, will, training, knowledge, a human conciousness to manifest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I am unsure where the soul having no magical abilities comes from. Even when Voldemort was less than the meanest spirit,having no body, he still possessed some magical abilities. He was even capable of powerful magic when all he had was the imperfect little body.
I think the idea is that Rowling is setting it up so that "soul parts," other than the original soul source, have no magical abilities. We've been led to believe that it was the protective spells on the ring that ended up damaging and almost killing Dumbledore. And the likely locket at #12 Grimmald Place was stuck tightly shut, probably through more protective spells. Unless anyone wants to suggest that horcrux soul fragments can act, at least to protect themselves, then it would appear most inanimate horcruxes cannot. The diary, and possibly Nagini, are special cases. Perhaps such protective spells would have kept Diary-Tom Riddle from manifesting and might keep Nagini from moving, or maybe even from breathing. In those cases a protective spell might literally be a "binding" spell.



To doug_rogers:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barmy Codger
Your line of thinking is awe inspiring
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Agreed.
Doug, you do have a very thoroughly thought out, plausible line of reasoning. But alas, just because it works does not mean JKR would go that route. This has been shown by many people's equally plausible theories having been proved wrong as each new book comes out. It's not that I don't think your ideas are good, just that I don't happen to think this is the underlying meaning Jo had in mind. But it's certainly nothing personal and, for all I know, you could turn out to be right on the money.



Last edited by Emerald63; January 18th, 2006 at 12:22 am.
  #112  
Old January 13th, 2006, 1:29 am
doug_rogers  Male.gif doug_rogers is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

On Homunculus, regarding hands as magical necessities:

at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus

and images at Google

http://images.google.com/images?svnu...us&btnG=Search


  #113  
Old January 13th, 2006, 7:05 am
barmy codger's Avatar
barmy codger  Undisclosed.gif barmy codger is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
On Homunculus, regarding hands as magical necessities:
Good sites, Thanks. For anyone interested, there was a discussion of homunculi in the second version of 'The Importance of Alchemy'. That version is archived but inaccessible by the usual means. I may be chastised by fellow initiates there for revealing arcane secrets, but here's a direct link to the portion of the discussion about the homunculus. Just a little ahead of that is also discussion of whether or not Harry is an alchemist.
http://www.cosforums.com/cosarchive/...&page=19&pp=20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
BTW, Barmy, I seem to have missed exactly why this topic brings Rove to mind for you, other than the general likeness. Something specific there?
Interesting that you have to look to an ex-pat non-TV-watcher for inside dope on affairs in your country --Rove is known as turd blossom, for being like a Texas flower that grows from cow-pies, therefore one who comes out of political sh-t looking good. I say the phrase is the sign of esoteric practices in the government.

'Promethean Ambitions', by William R. Newman is about the question science playing God, and considers alchemists -whether they were perfecting nature, or duplicating nature. Were they rivaling God, and were they aided by demons? The book has in mind modern issues such as cloning, and genetic modification, etc. It examines the belief in spontaneous generation of life from animal carcasses (maggots) and manure, and the like. Also is a discussion of the golem tradition and the homunculus, in this respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
No idea on the alchemical possibilities, but in Pagan circles the goblet (aka chalice; each can=cauldron) represents the feminine because of its likeness to the womb.
This is the 'Marian' aspect of Rosicrucian alchemy. I can't remember the title of a book which had a variety of presentations made at a conference, and I can't remember where in the alchemy thread I discussed it. But the various researchers held scholar Frances Yates in high regard and one particular paper spoke of the correspondence of womb and chalice and Mary for having been the means of bringing Christ to earth. In other words for the spiritual to manifest itself in the mundane. It's a chore when you can't just paste in a quote. Anyway there were enough things there to give me a strong impression that Ms Rowling's idea of alchemy was Rosicrucian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Anyone agree there are possibilities here? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree?
Since you refrained from 'wood' jokes, I'll refrain from saying anything about dogs and trees. However, here's a good place to remark about the occasional Swiftie of Ms Rowling's. Swifties are from the 'Tom Swift' stories, Tom Swift, boy inventor. Old, but not that old, I read the 'Tom Swift, Jr' stories rather than those in the original series which were known for adverbs matching subject of dialogue. I can remember only a couple imitations: 'That saw sure is sharp!' Tom said off-handedly. All that to explain why I notice Sirius saying things grimly. Happens more than once.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Any mention or visuals of copper?
There are police in the movie and they are the butt of jokes, but that's an American use of copper. Ruby Rhod's name and costume, etc. seem to be Rosicrucian imagery. No surprise from a French director -except that having these themes in a film is surprising to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Sorry, but if that's the case how in the world has Harry ever managed to make a single selfless choice, let alone lots of them???
Well, you asked for it: Making selfless choices is easy if one has no self!


  #114  
Old January 14th, 2006, 1:37 am
rust_loup  Male.gif rust_loup is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Didn't seem to work with Mr Travolta who produced (I think) and starred in a sci-fi film based on a Hubbard story. By the way, I heard once that the scientologists operate their own very up-to-date motion picture laboratory, so they know the value of brainwashing, er- I mean public relations. Any scientologists who may be reading this, please don't take my comments too seriously. For all I know your beliefs may be correct. I've never asked before, are scientologists vegetarians?

Cannot say I have read anything on them being vegetarians so I would assume so. I'd imagine a nice steak is always welcomed after a long day of zapping yourself witht he electricity from an e-meter trying to drive those alien souls away.

You know, I bet Arthus Weasely would love the e-meter. Then again, I bet he would love a cattle prod.



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
This is from 'Vimana Aircraft of Ancient India & Atlantis' by David Hatcher Childress. So I know it's true. (insert Smiley of Irony) Curiously, the book has illustrations showing some ancient images and compares them to aircraft, and a book I got as a Solstice gift, 'Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy' by Clark Heinrich, shows the same symbols and says they are mushrooms.

Oh dear. Would you say the Magic Mushrooms is a recommended read then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
You're overreacting. First of all, it was popularly thought in the alchemy thread (maybe 'popular' isn't the right term for that discussion) that Harry is doing the Great Work, and when I suggested he wasn't, people disagreed with that idea. So if you disagree you are in good company. Second, I may be wrong. There is a lot in the story to give the impression Harry and Voldemort are 'twins' (particularly where Harry stares in the mirror and sees Voldemort looking back), and there is a lot showing Harry doing shamanic things and being an alchemical 'seeker'. So it is fair to think of him that way. To say he is not doing the Great Work, I have to reconcile these other factors and I can't beyond a certain degree. So some of my statements about Harry can be inconsistent. I take comfort in thnking that's not any worse than Ms Rowling's inconsistencies in the story.

Still, he has attained the Stone, and he did that in the very first story. This agrees with what JohnDL pointed out that the first book informs about the whole series. It also is another reason I felt there was a reverse structure. To account for his getting the Stone without being an alchemist, I have to sidestep and say Harry symbolises the process, and following Harry leads the reader through transformation. That isn't an idea of my own -it was applied to other novels by another commentator.

As an aside, another movie reference: 'La Bete Humaine' by Jean Renoir is about a French train driver (engineer to yanks), who kills. 'The Human Beast', a title to interest readers here. I just learned it is based on a novel of Emile Zola which I haven't read. But I saw the film twice years ago. Apart from the realistic scenes of the trains, which appeal to me who likes riding trains, there is one moment when the great actor Jean Gabin, who plays the engineer, happens to pause when he sees himself in a mirror -just like Harry seeing Voldemort facing him.
Well, I think I may feel a little bit better then, still not too sure. It would be beyond ignorant on my part to deny you know much much more on alchemy than I.

Who is this human beast? Like a serial killer or just a nifty sort of character?



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Weaslee-Deeva (I'm reading book 4 and imitating Mme Maxime), you're such a good sport. You've said you're a seminary graduate and I would guess you're uncomfortable from the many hits Christianity has taken in this discussion.. I truly admire your tolerance and that you still keep up your contributions.
I would like to second that and advise you to look past my grumblings and malcontentments with the religion. My experience with it has been an exceptionally unpleasant one and that colors my remarks and attitudes on it. I do have Christian friends and I do not think it is inherently evil or stupid. Those just happen to be the adjectives that describe the Christians I am unfortunate enough to encounter in my non-computer life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
It's heartening to find interest in this, from you and others. I posted the link before but had little or no response. Another page there might interest you and I recommend it to everyone. http://www.sangraal.com/AMET/worldtree.html It is a discussion of the world tree. It is where I saw a reference to a 'Green Language'. Up to now I had found no other mention of it. But a search has just shown up another essay by the same author, elaborating about the 'Green Language'. It is something I think would appeal particularly to you, WeasleDiva, as it involves lateral thinking with wordplay. http://www.jwmt.org/v1n4/readlight.html
a bit on the Green Language
Quote:
The engraving on the right — from Robert Fludd's Clavis Philosophiae, et Alchymiae, 1633 — shows the symbol of the Rosicrucian rosy-cross with its layers of sevenfold petals, tended by bees, which symbolize human souls. The Latin phrase translates as "The Rose gives honey to the bees". The bees or souls are taking nourishment from the rosy-cross, which symbolizes a renewed Christ impulse: the rose is Christ growing upon the painful, spiny cross. In the Green Language the word 'Apis' refers to a duality of nature — to the creature of flight, and to the heavy creature of earth, the sacrificial bull. This duality made the bee a useful symbol for the initiate, who was the inhabitant of two worlds; he was free to wing through the astral realms, yet remained also a dweller on the lower physical plane, in the familiar human body. The bee symbol was more than merely an image of the soul — it was an image of the initiate soul, of the Bull-Bee or Winged Bull, which had the power to granted the initiate to live in the two worlds.
The bee's knees indeed.

The mention of the Fludd engraving made me want to post another of his engravings. It deals, with some of the concepts we have discussed. I have scanned it from my copy of Carroll and Saxe's "Natural Magic" (well worth a read).

I was reading on those links and the role of geometry. I posted a link to the sephiroth a few pages back as is mentioned in your links. I was doing some research to post some more information on it and came across a few things which I think will be of interest. The majority of this is concerning the occult and magickal nature of Hebrew writing, thus tying in to our discussion of runes and of secret languages.

Zohar: the Mysticism of the Alphabet
Quote:
"When the Divine Being, however, willed to create the world, all the letters appeared before his presence in their reverse order. Th first ascended and. said: 'Lord of the Universe! let it please thee to create the world by me, as I am the final letter of the word Emeth (truth), which is graven on thy signet ring. Thou thyself art called Emeth, and therefore it will become thee, the great King, to begin and create the world by me.' Said the Holy One (blessed be He): 'Thou, oh, Teth, are indeed worthy, but I cannot create the world by thee; for thou art destined to be not only the characteristic emblem borne by faithful students of the law, from beginning to end, but also the associate of Maveth (death), of which thou art the final letter. Therefore the creation of the world cannot, must not, be through thee.'
This first bit is on the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. In the following passages the letters are given a sentience to proclaim the various ways in which they will serve god. We also see meanings attached to them as they are proclaiming what it is that they will do for god. These meanings carry over into qabbalistic magickal practices. It allows us to see a bit of the use behind each glyph and to understand a bit of the import behind them. The vowel sounds are the breath of life that goes into these glyphs which is why they are more holy than the letters themselves and thusly not given a symbol attached to them. So when making a word of magickal intent, every letter, every breath, and every motion go into its meaning and thus its power.

Zohar: the Two Serpents
Quote:
"There is, however, another serpent that comes from the right. These two serpents are they that are closely attached to man during his lifetime (the astral fluid and animal nature), as scripture saith, 'of all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made,' these two are the most cunning, crafty and subtle in tempting and destroying man. Woe unto him who allows himself to be led on and seduced by the serpent, for death irretrievable is his doom, physically, morally and spiritually, both to himself and to those associated with him, as in the case of Adam who wished to know and become expert in nature's secrets and occult science. In revealing them and exciting within him a fictitious joy and happiness, the serpent acquired that influence and control over Adam that contributed to and brought his ruin and downfall and thus caused him to suffer, as also his successors. From the day that Israel came to the foot of Mount Sinai, the impurity and corruption wrought by the serpent has not disappeared from the world.
Quote:
Hear what saith scripture when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree by which death entered into their souls or lower nature, 'And when they heard the voice of the Lord of the Alhim walking in the garden' (Gen. iii-8), or, as it ought to be rendered, had walked (mithhalech). Note further that whilst Adam had not fallen, he was a recipient of divine wisdom (hochma) and heavenly light52a-52b and derived his continuous existence from the Tree of Life to which he had free access, but as soon as he allowed himself to be seduced and deluded with the desire of occult knowledge, he lost everything, heavenly light and life through the disjunction of his higher and lower self, and, the loss of that harmony that should always exist between them, in short, he then first knew what evil was and what it entailed, and, therefore, it is written, 'Thou art not a God that approveth wickedness, neither shall evil dwell with thee' (Is. v-5); or, in other words, he who implicitly and blindly follows the dictates of his lower nature or self shall not come near the Tree of Life.
In the previous two passages we see mention of the two serpents who are always attempting to bring doom to man, his astral fluid and animal nature. If my understanding of the passage in terms of other occult research is correct, it is saying that a serpent lives in our spiritual blood(our higher thinking and dreaming) and our physical blood(instincts and desires). Thus it is saying that Adam's desire of occult knowledge was his downfall opposed to various carnal desires. This is interesting in respect to Harry and Voldemort as Voldemort's evil is through his want of the occult mysteries. And Harry's actions of evil are always emotional and reactionary and tend to revolve around physical situations(the beast in his belly, and his attempted crucios come to mind)

Though we also see that Adam had "Divine Knowledge". This got me curious as to what would constitute divine knowledge as their sin was partaking from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad and thus being forbidden from the Tree of Life.

So I read through the book hoping for a bit more info on his divine knowledge.




Zohar: the Antideluvians and Their Magical Arts
Quote:
Said Rabbi Jose: "Adam through disobedience to the divine commandment, lost the knowledge and understanding of the secret doctrine and occult power and meaning of the letters of the alphabet except the two last, namely, the letters Shin (S) and Tau (Th), because though he had sinned yet was not goodness wholly extinguished within him and therefore to express his feeling of gratitude for this concession, he called his son Seth. After his repentance and reconciliation with his Lord, the letters with the knowledge of their mystical meaning and power became known again to him, but in their reverse order thus, Th, S, R, Q, in which they continued up to the day the children of Israel stood at the foot of Mount Sinai, when they became arranged again in their normal order as on the day that the heavens and the earth were created. This redistribution of the alphabetical letters

p. 237

contributed to the permanent welfare and endurance of the world."
So here we see that the divine knowledge was writing and that the meanings are again given a power to them. A power to pull together, unwrap, and redefine all things.


Quote:
Said Rabbi Abba: "When Adam transgressed, the heavens and the earth trembled and wished to become dissolved into their original elements and disappear altogether because the covenant between God and man on which they were founded had become broken, of which it is written, 'If the covenant of day and night had not existed, I would not have made those laws that govern and control the universe.' (Jer. xxxiii., 25.) We know that this covenant was broken by the transgression of Adam as scripture states, 'but they like Adam have transgressed the covenant' (Hos. vi., 7). If the Holy One had not foreseen that Israel on arriving at Mount Sinai would accept the covenant, the very heavens and the earth would have ceased their existence and reverted back into chaos."


Here we have some further import of the letters. That the power in them is seemingly more than symbolic and is what binds together all things. So whats in a name? For many, your very essence. The power that makes you "you". We see similar features in Chinese beliefs where names are given numerical value in order to "help along" the baby in becoming the desired sort of person. And it is also true in Buddhism, in a way. Since in Buddhism, there is no self, the closest thing to a self we have is in our name. That is all that this "I" is, a name, a description assigned to a collection of mass.


Now a quick bit on the sephiroth.

The Kabbalah: Part II Chapter III
Quote:
2. The ten Sefiroth, by which the Infinite Being first manifested Himself, are nothing but attributes which, by themselves, have no substantial reality. In each of those attributes the divine substance is present in its entirety, and, taken all together, they constitute the first, the most complete and highest of all the divine manifestations. It is called the "archetypal or celestial man" ‏אדם קדמון, אדם עלאה‎ 17 This is the figure which dominates the mysterious chariot of Ezekiel, and of which the terrestrial man, as we shall soon see, is but a faint copy. "The form of man," says Simeon ben Yohai to his disciples, "contains all that is in heaven above and upon earth below, the superior as well as the inferior beings; it is for that reason that the Ancient





p. 153

of the Ancients has chosen it for His own. 18 No form, no world could subsist before the human form, for it contains all things, and all that is, subsists only by virtue of it: without it there would be no world, for thus it is written (Prov. III, 19): 'The Lord has through wisdom founded the earth.'

But it is necessary to distinguish the higher man (Adam d’leeloh) ‏אדם דלעילא‎ from the lower man: ‏אדם דלתתא‎ (Adam d’letâtoh), for one could not exist without the other. On that form of man rests the perfection of faith in all things, and it is that form that is spoken of when it is said that they saw above the chariot like the form of a man; and it is of that form that Daniel spoke in the following words (Daniel VII, 13): 'I saw in the nightly vision and behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him.'" 19 Thus, what is called the Celestial Man, or the first divine manifestation, is nothing else than the absolute form of all that exists; the source of all the other forms, or rather of all ideas, the supreme thought, otherwise called also the λόγος or the Word. We do not pretend to express here a simple conjecture but an historical fact, the accuracy of which will be the more appreciated the more extensive the knowledge of the system will become. However, before proceeding, we may cite yet these words: "The form of the Ancient (Whose name be sanctified!) is an unique form which embraces all forms. It is the supreme and mysterious wisdom which contains all the rest." 20

Within this book we see the sephiroth is a representation of the qualities of god. Further reading of the book would show various letters and words associated with different aspects of the sephiroth. This is the building of further magical meaning behind the letters and beginnings of magical wording. The sephiroth is more than just a path of spiritual workings, or even as a design to show the qualities of god, it acts as a map to god. Each node can be seen as building oneself up to where you can be in god's presence, also each shows meaningful and occult purposes behind its design, wording, and intent.


And a quick post from a further book which may interest the more alchemically minded among you.

Sepher Yezirah: Chapter III
Quote:
God appointed and established the three mothers, ‏א״מ״ש‎ combined, weighed and changed them, and formed by them three mothers ‏א״מ״ש‎ in the world, in the year and in man, male and female.
Quote:
The three mothers ‏א״מ״ש‎ in the world are: air, water and fire. Heaven was created from fire or ether; the earth (comprising sea and land) from the elementary water; and the atmospheric air from the elementary air, or spirit, which establishes the balance among them.
I do not have a lot to say on it personally, just thought it would interest some of you who are in a position to make far more use of it.


On the note of the sacred geometry. My brain is quickly slumping together things such as the snakes from Dumbledore's thingamawhatchit, the snakes of the caudacus, the double-helix, and Milla Jovovitch(Liloo from the Fith Element).

There is an old Chinese painting depecting an emperor and his consort as half human half dragon. The painting was remarkably similar to the double helix of the genetic make-up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Gypsies are a story element in 'Notre Dame of Paris', 'Jane Eyre' and 'The Moonstone' (Ms Rowling's summer reading recommendation 2004), among others I can't remember right now.
Gypsy Folk Tales




Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
My fave used to be peanut butter and liverwurst pate. I got the same reactions. That was before I became an adult and way before I became vegetarian. Which reminds me:

Cannot say I have tried that one. But peanut butter does make most everything better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Choose the way that allows venison. Most only allow carrots. You're a wolf, not a rabbit.
Most just suggest vegetarianism as opposed to actually demand it. Chinese Mahayana is one of the larger ones in qhich it is required. The Buddha himself ate meat, as well as early monks and nuns and a good deal of the modern ones. That is owing to the fact that the stricter traditions require that monks and nuns beg for their food and eat anything anyone is kind enough to give them. They are not permitted to have met the animal before it is slaughtered however.



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
In the good old days, before my time even, people were closer to animals and danced the turkey trot and the fox trot.

I loathe the Bunny Hop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
What makes you think that a horcrux soul-fragment would be able to communicate with Harry, or that it would necessarily try to take over his body? Presumably Nagini still has some bit of herself left, if indeed she is also a horcrux. I have the sense that the fragments have neither consciousness nor will and most especially not the ability to act. (Fragments were placed there by another, their originator. "Intrusion" sounds to me like the soul piece acted on its own to get there. Am I wrong in that?) The diary was unique in seemingly being able to act.... at least where the other inanimate horcrux objects are concerned. But might a fragment within a living host be able to think and act?
The way I interpret the passage is that its ability to act of its own is what made it suspicious to Dumbledore that it did indeed have some piece of soul in it. If the soul did not carry that ability why was it the conclusion Dumbledore's mind had jumped to? I have yet to decide whether that is the doing of a soul in its own right or the result of a soul having the proper "raw materials" to work with. The question is I guess, what qualifies as the raw materials, being lodged in a soul? Having contact with a memory? Being bound to another living being? It makes me curious, also, to whether he needs to speak parselmouth for Nagini to understand him or anyone else for that matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Horcruxes HBP
"Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the diary,what you described was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book...a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Even if true, couldn't a soul fragment just "lie in wait," quietly observing for any number of reasons, then take over if or when it saw a good opportunity for gain? (This could account for the almost life-long fragment in Harry, yet Harry not being aware of a conscious presence.) For that matter, if it could challenge Harry for power, why not just do an Imperious Curse type set-up and get Harry to kill himself? Would that be impossible because a Voldemort soul fragment would be as helpless against Harry's love as the body-encased Voldemort? And if the fragment found this out first hand, might it not be able to at least make the body-encased Voldemort aware that, for some reason, it/they are unable to damage Harry? After all, Voldemort only heard part of the prophecy. If he were to find out the part about the "power the Dark Lord knows not" he might be able to at least devise a better attack strategy, even if he could not overcome this power.
I am going from a shamanic standpoint where there is no real lie in wait, just slow destruction. Though I do not see why lie in wait is not feasible in terms of the story. And I think it has challenged Harry for power but in subtle ways, his temper for instance. I think it has sought to use Harry's temper as a means of taking him over. Until he has been taken over I cannot see it exerting the power needed to have Harry harm himself. Though if it ever took over, there would be no need for it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
If you doubt a soul fragment would be willing to go down in flames along with Harry in an induced suicide, consider this: if it has cognitive abilities it would know that other fragments would still survive and that its originator would, too. This further begs the question, though, whether conscious, cognizant soul fragments would still consider themselves part of a greater whole and work cooperatively or if they would battle one another, just as their originator would battle any "outside" challenger.
What I gathered from Riddle's Diary is that its first preoccupation is for it to have form itself. It is cut off from the other pieces and is incapable of knowing how many are elft if any, just as the incarnate Voldemort is. Diary Riddle seemed more concerned at that time in becoming its own being than seeking out what may or may not be left of its host.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I think if a soul fragment had the qualities you imply it does, it would long ago have done something to either take over, damage, or destroy Harry, unless of course it holds self-preservation above protecting its originator. If that's the case, conscious soul fragments wouldn't do the "real" Voldemort much good and he would likely never have created them. So I'm sticking with my original sense that horcrux soul fragments are not conscious, cognizant, or have a will and the ability to act.
It depends on the situation of the soul fragment as to what it can or cannot do. That is why I compared it to power intrustion as opposed to possession. With enough time and the correct circumstances a power intrustion can become possession. But while it remains a power intrusion its means and abilities are limited even though its sentience is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I'm confused; if a spirit intrusion can sometimes involve only a portion of the intruder's soul, then how is that different from a horcrux? And, in general, wouldn't it be the intrusion situation that would allow the portion to be conscious, rather than the way you imagined a horcrux soul fragment is? Wouldn't a whole soul trying to reside in another's body be more powerful than merely a fragment? Why would an intact soul simply lodge in and affect one part of its victim's body? Wouldn't an intact soul be more likely to be conscious? And then wouldn't it prefer to push out the original "owner" of the body and take it as its own? If it's vacated its own body, for whatever reason, it's going to need a new one at some point, right? But a fragment MUST preserve its host, at least till it has somewhere else to go or it, too, will perish. (Except in the case of there being multiple fragments, when it might accept self-destruction.) Seems to me that it's the horcrux fragment that would symbiotic (as a partial soul intrusion would be) while the intact intrusion-soul would be parasitic. It would have to be, or it would be self-defeating from the get go.
Not much difference between the intrusion and a horcrux really. Though, my intrusion scenario has become more of another "whoops" type accidental situation for Voldemort. The difference I would say is that the horcrux is magically bound to the object, and so far as we know requires the destruction of or results in the destruction of, the object in question. Removing the intrusion does not.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Now that's a cool question! What are those things made from? Why do they smell like dung? Do they contain it, an essential chemical of it, or merely something that smells like it? Animals in general have a keen interest in the droppings of others, especially olfactory giants like cats. So.... is he fascinated for the usual reasons, or because something's "not quite right" about this "dung," as far as his kneazle-cat nose knows?

Even if it is not made from dung, I dread to know its ingredients.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Perhaps Harry is due to become a new sort of spirit being... the feathered serpent. Where, oh where, did I see that reference to a "snake-bird"??? Was it on our thread? In a book? Argh! As the spiritual heir of two diametrically opposed mentors, Harry has the ability to act as either would.... or in a new, synthesized way. There's that quote from Book 1, Chapter 1 where McG tells D-dore that he would have every power that Voldemort does, if he weren't so noble. We know he wasn't perfect, but we've been given a lot more evidence to show Harry is even less perfect. Will he be as powerful as Voldemort because he is less noble than D-dore when it comes to using whatever is necessary to defeat Voldemort? Or because he will be able to fuse the two spiritual inheritances into something new?
I am not sure if we have discussed it here or not. All this digging and reading is making my brain a bit fuzzy Methinks barmy is contagious.

But here is a link which lightly brushes over the feathered serpent concept and goes on to give some other symbols. I linked it primarily because it has several winged serpent and horned serpent places of origin and gives links to other such symbols.

I think he may fuse the two into something new. It would follow established mythos patterns and make a good deal of sense. I do not think anyone will ever expect Harry to fill the shoes of Dumbledore, they are just too different.

A quick look at the serpent connection. It makes me think of Dumbledore and the potion in the cave.



The Serpent as Divinity
Quote:
When we come to Sumer we meet the most famous of the mythic epic story of o`lden times, the Gilgamesh Epic. Among other pieces to be found in this tale of a search for the meaning of life is the tale of the plant of eternal life. According to the story, Gilgamesh was told that the plant lay at the bottom of a certain lake. With much effort, he dove to the bottom, retrieved the plant and brought it to the surface and the shore. While Gilgamesh was resting, before eating the plant and becoming an immortal, a snake came along and ate the plant. The end result was that the snake became immortal, and Gilgamesh went home to die.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
There's been a TON of discussion on whether "heir" means blood line only, chosen heirs, either, or a combination. BTW, I found it interesting you made the same slip JKR did and referred to a "living" character as the "ancestor" of Slytherin.

My ability to mutilate grammar, spelling, and word usage "nos noe bownds". Thoug I think Sirius gave us a bit of precident on the way of heirs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Interesting thought. There are those sugar quills one can buy at Honeydukes (an interesting name in itself). She might just be doing it out of habit or there might be other types of edible quills.
It reminds me of the press-on tattoo scare of the 80's. I can remember my peers' mothers freaking out, terrified that some acid popping fiend was going to make drug users of their little babies. Knowing how many of them have grown up to be, it would be a bit of a welcomed change.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
The more I think about it, the more I'm hoping some of you either have read, or would be willing to read, Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. His portrayal of witches is highly sympathetic (as opposed to the bumbling and sometimes swell-headed sorcerers) and includes "borrowing" as he calls it. It's when one of the older, very talented witches "borrows" the body of an animal and goes off to reconnoiter through its eyes and, to some degree, thought processes. The trouble is, if the witch (Pratchett's are always female; sorcerers are male and quite elitist) stays in the animal host's body too long, she will "lose herself" and begin to forget she started out as human, will wish to stay, and will eventually become stuck. It's why Granny Weatherwax, who's fond of borrowing, always leaves a sign on her chest asking someone to wake her up if she isn't back in 'x' number of hours.

Pratchett's witches are not concerned with status and are highly aware of and centered on nature, as opposed to the urbanized, organized sorcerers, who have their own institution, Unseen University. (The author's ability to pun is legendary and his word play in general is hysterical.) Come to think of it, the witches are shamanic while the sorcerers are much more like ceremonial magicians. The witches don't appear in all of the books (about 2 dozen total). The sorcerers don't either, but they do show up more often.

And I'm beginning to think there may be more to some of Pratchett's name choices, the ones that aren't outright silly anyway. I've already mentioned the Hogfather and Hogswatch Night. Additionally, the youngest witch is named Magret, which sounds like maybe a non-English plant or animal name. But the main city featured is.... Ankh-Morpork. Talk about combining the sacred and the mundane! Umm, did I mention his genre is humorous fantasy built on a framework of social satire?

As Pratchett was the widest selling living British author... until JKR... it would be interesting to compare their works to see if Pratchett was getting up to some of this before Jo. (I think I've heard rumblings about him not necessarily being fond of either A) Ms. Rowling's work or B) the splash that accompanies it, but don't quote me on that.)

Haven't read discworld but I shall certainly work it in. I am currently reading the Earthsea books. I took mental note and amusement that both of Ged's staves so far have been made of yew. Within the Earthsea books the wizards also run the risk of staying the animal they transform into and official magical learning is primarily the realm of men with women being something of hedge witches. I think it will amuse you that of the many types of shifting within the therianthropic community, there is one called possession shifting, which sounds much like what you described save the therianthrope has no control over it. Of course it coul just as easily be a dream. I have never met many possession shifters who were fortunate enough to have the animal handy to prove it. Wolves, lions, and ravens seem to be a bit difficult to come by in the way of pets.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Ahh, yes. The "Vernon Dursley" syndrome. (See also this thread: "Why are the Dursleys so Medieval?")


I kind of like the sound of that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Do I understand you correctly that asking "Why shouldn't I?" is more effective and less limiting than asking "Why should I?" It's interesting that this illustrates the "faith in oneself" viewpoint that is so often shot down by social convention or Western religious ideology, as opposed to the most common answers to "Why should I?" which include "because it's what's expected by others or they'll reject me," "because the law says I have to or I'll go to jail," and "because God/the Church says I have to or I'll go to hell."

It also reminds me of something a British friend explained a while back, the difference between British common law and its heirs and the Napoleonic law code, upon which the new European Union is structured. Under Napoleonic law, one can only do what one is explicitly allowed to do as covered by law. That makes for a TON of laws and ignores the fundementally variable, non-categorizable aspect of real life. But common law evolved to let the individual decide what he/she wants to do, with only mutually agreed upon restricted activities specified.

Very different viewpoints....... I sure know which ones I prefer.
In the words you put it, yes. My motivation is not to be less limiting but more effective. When a person's beliefs are of the nature mine are, it is very easy to convince yourself it is true. This is especially so if you spend your time finding reasons to back up that truthfullness. I find reasons to break apart my truthfullness, to become skeptical, and to a large degree self-monitoring of myself. It allows my beliefs to both fluidly change, and for me to be entirely certain of the beliefs I do settle on. Most people, in most religions,philosophies, or just outlooks on life, i do not believe are entirely capable of saying ti is their belief with absolute 100% certainty and no doubt in their mind. Because of my methods of always being doubtful of myself I alleviate that dillema and at the same time feel more comfortable into holding onto what beliefs I do keep.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Well..... that's pretty much inviting change, something most folks are terrified of, especially, but not limited to, change in the greater accepted order of society. Guess you're pretty much an all-around "Oh ye of little faith" type guy, huh Rust? Works for me. Otherwise everything would always stay the same and that would be b-ohhhh-ring. He who questions himself stands to gain the most wisdom, say I..

Change is the only constant. To fight it is to fight life itself. To fight life itself is to invite discontent and suffering at every turn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Drumrolls, Rust, or rim shots? (And no tacky puns, please!)
Since you said please, this is all the response you get to that one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Hmmm..... best not be expecting to "get any" any time soon with that attitude, Bucko. And you can forget about a hot meal, too.
I prefer my meals lukewarm anyway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Effective as clubs may be, hearts work even better. Of course if you still find yourselves "a tad lonely," diamonds can buy you some company. And in the end, if it still doesn't work out, those spades might come in real handy. For either party.
That was so awful that you now have my complete admiration



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
EDIT: To Rust's comment of "Carpe Diem" in regards to fuzzy thinking.... shouldn't that read "Carpet Diem"?

See above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Now there's an esoteric thought! Very Zen, too.
My zen response to that is that only in becoming change and by changing will he ever be able to remain the same.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Did you notice the guy with the white beard in red, just off to the left? Would that be Santa or..... the Hogfather???
I am going with Hogfather or Mr. Mushroom.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Hmmm.... I think my typ-o kink filter may be out of whack. Could you clarify the underlined term, please?
Lol, that one actually was not a type-o. A luthier makes stringed instruments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Considering your.... considerable history of lung problems, and in case you didn't already know, milk products are known for producing extra phlegm. (Hey, the rest of you, this is serious - no lactating Fleur jokes, got it?!) Anyway, avoiding them, at least whenever you have bronchitis or the like, might be a good idea.

I try to avoid milk if possible as it is. My only dairy temptation is cheese. Well, yogurt too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
As I'm sure the article's author could tell you, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Weirdness is in the eye of the Beholder, especially when it's one of those hundred-eyed jobbies from D&D. (Sorry, needed to fill my weirdness quotient for the day.
Yes, but when I am holding all these eyes I cannot help but feel a little off.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Was the Jewish tradition to keep from attempting to have control over Him, and thus commit sacrilege? Or was it to keep from empowering Him? I thought that speaking the true name of God was supposed to invoke unimaginable amounts of His power - not command it, though - and thus endanger yourself and all around you. In a much more direct and certain way, speaking that name backwards was supposed to "undo" the world and bring about its utter destruction. But... is that last part from scripture, religious mythology, or non-religious popular folklore? And have I gotten the speaking the true name bit wrong?

It is much simpler than that lol. He said not to speak his name in vain. Thus his name was observed for the most auspicious of events. After a time no events were deemed auspicious enough. Though in Qabbalistic and other mystic traditions, there is great power in the name which none are worthy to wield and will thus perish shortly after saying it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
And isn't it also interesting that, more than being irked at being called Voldemort by those who do not fear him, he is irked at Dumbledore for calling him Tom?

To quote James Potter and relate it to Voldemort's opinion of Dumbledore, "it's more like the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
But wouldn't worming her way out still be better than a slug-fest? Worming is certainly less violent. Unless either is acceptable, depending on whose medicine one carries? (Uh-huh, uh-huh, thass right...... I's-nailed it.


You certainly seem to be in a mighty fine mood



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I think the idea is that Rowling is setting it up so that "soul parts," other than the original soul source, have no magical abilities. We've been led to believe that it was the protective spells on the ring that ended up damaging and almost killing Dumbledore. And the likely locket at #12 Grimmald Place was stuck tightly shut, probably through more protective spells. Unless anyone wants to suggest that horcrux soul fragments can act, at least to protect themselves, then it would appear most inanimate horcruxes cannot. The diary, and possibly Nagini, are special cases. Perhaps such protective spells would have kept Diary-Tom Riddle from manifesting and might keep Nagini from moving, or maybe even from breathing. In those cases a protective spell might literally be a "binding" spell.


I am not sure if they are special cases really. It was hinted at the protections are what got Dumbledore with the ring. but what of the cave? Dumbledore assumed that the potion drinker would be immobolised for Voldemort to arrive and see who it is. But we do not see this, does this mean that the "alarm" was disabled by R.A.B. or that perhaps the horcrux itself had some means of sending the beacon. We know that the drinker is immobolised by the potion for want of water. If there is an assistant to give that water, well it becomes inferi chowder. It is still too vague for me to make a set decision though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_rogers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Homunculus, regarding hands as magical necessities:

at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus

and images at Google

http://images.google.com/images?svnu...us&btnG=Search

Danke mein freund!



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Good sites, Thanks. For anyone interested, there was a discussion of homunculi in the second version of 'The Importance of Alchemy'. That version is archived but inaccessible by the usual means. I may be chastised by fellow initiates there for revealing arcane secrets, but here's a direct link to the portion of the discussion about the homunculus. Just a little ahead of that is also discussion of whether or not Harry is an alchemist.
http://www.cosforums.com/cosarchive/...&page=19&pp=20



Thanks to you too!



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Well, you asked for it: Making selfless choices is easy if one has no self!

"The disappearance of the word 'I am' is indeed the highest happiness."





Hope all is well and wishing everyone a good weekend!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fludd2.JPG (151.4 KB, 4 views)


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"What if it's a race with the fate of the world hanging in the balance? Will men turn into animals before animals turn into men?" - the man in black, Cry of the Leopard

Last edited by rust_loup; January 14th, 2006 at 1:48 am.
  #115  
Old January 14th, 2006, 2:01 am
TreacleTartlet's Avatar
TreacleTartlet  Female.gif TreacleTartlet is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 3295 days
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Hi,well I thought it was about time I caught up with everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Anyone know if that expression is used at all by the British?
Yes,it is an expression we Brits are familiar with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
My own studies, which are admittedly very limited, have led me to surmise that the highly esoteric connotations of the Gospels' original Aramaic text indicate that Gnosticism may be the closest thing to a "true" Christianity. It also has much stronger parallels, imo, to multiple belief systems than does the later, orthodox Christianity endorsed by the Roman empire.
My thoughts too, although unlike you I have never studied the subject, my amateur study of history has led me the same conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Two thoughts... first, JohnDL's outline of ideas JKR likely encountered throughout her education was very thorough, so I too find it very possible that she does indeed consciously know and understand concepts from each of the different disciplines. And I agree, Barmy, that if that is the case then she indeed is awesome.
I agree on both thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I find it shamanically significant that Voldemort is currently hairless and that no hair was added to the potion. As I see it, he is an odd sort of meat robot or homonculus. He has all the pieces needed to run but those pieces are still independent things. It is still Harry's blood, it is still Wormtail's flesh, still his dad's blood and the like.
Remembering here that Wormtail is in debt to Harry. Maybe he will be involved in the final vanquishing of Voldemort.I'm also remembering that glint in Dumbledore's eye when Harry told him about Voldemort using his blood,Hmmm...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
The question I would ask is whether the drugs influence the music or the music the drugs. Shamanically the two bring the same effect. And as far as the neural patterns have shown in studies, each affects the brain similarly and changes its consciousness.
Ah, now I wonder if that is why I became a dancer. Well it's cheaper than drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I am not as savvy as I would like on British culture. I still cannot get past the french fries vs. chips thing.
Chips!Got to have chips! NOW !

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
Possibly, Hermione will write an updated version of Hogwarts, a History.
After Rowling finishes HP, she said she would write a book with background information. It would be so fun if she wrote it as "Hermione."
Oooh yes! Hermione ought to write a book, she spends so much time in that library.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Do you know of the reason for Hawthorne being sacrosanct?
I'll look in my tree book. I think it is something about upsetting the faerie folk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
think if a soul fragment had the qualities you imply it does, it would long ago have done something to either take over, damage, or destroy Harry, unless of course it holds self-preservation above protecting its originator. If that's the case, conscious soul fragments wouldn't do the "real" Voldemort much good and he would likely never have created them. So I'm sticking with my original sense that horcrux soul fragments are not conscious, cognizant, or have a will and the ability to act
This makes sense to me. Conscious horcrux soul fragments; sounds a bit like soul cloning. Voldemort wouldn't want that not in a living being as it would create a rival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Perhaps Harry is due to become a new sort of spirit being... the feathered serpent. Where, oh where, did I see that reference to a "snake-bird"??? Was it on our thread?
Yes, it was on our thread.In fact Emerald it was one of your very own posts,#88

Quote:
Originaly Posted by Emerald69And last but not least, in a footnote of sorts Graves mentions "Pans son," the wryneck, or snake-bird, was a spring migrant employed in erotic charms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
And in case you missed it the last time I said it, I LOVE your screen name!!! My husband and I both get quite the laugh whenever I discuss your posts with him.
Thank you, I'm glad you and your husband get a chuckle out of it. Like Harry I used to love treacle tart when I was a child; however I didn't think it would be approriate to call myself a tart, so I plumped for tartlet. Well, I am small, only 5 foot tall with a petite build.
And yes, I am still reading through version 1,(slowly)trying to take it all in. BTW I'd love to read your editorial, where can I find it? I think we have some similar ideas.

Well, I think thats all for now, It's wel past my bedtime. Goodnight!


  #116  
Old January 14th, 2006, 3:04 am
rust_loup  Male.gif rust_loup is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

I was doing a little bit more research on the sephiroth, caduceus and the like and come across some nifty double helix stuff. I warn you this is weirdness and in need of many grains of salt, but I am in just the right mood to be amused by it.
This is mainly in picture form with explination by yours truly. It saves you all from having to cave in your skulls with a lamp.

First we have a nice olf picture of the caduceus.



This vase is from the Mesopotamian city of Lagash and is dated to roughly 2025 B.C. Since the picture leaves something to be desired(and me being unable to find a better shot), I hunted up an artists rendering of what it is we see. The inscription has been translated "To the god Ningizzida, his god Gudea, patesi of Lagash, for the prolongation of his life, has dedicated this"

It is noteworthy that Ninazu(the Lord of Healing) was the father of Ningizzida.



There is your fun fact of the day, now we get to move on to the weird thoughts and ramblings this brings about in rust. I remembered coming across a serpentine picture in one of my nifty books on the occult that was somehow related to the foundation of China. I could remember it dealt with an early emperor being half dragon and couldn't for the life of me remember who. This is where the internet comes in handy. Below you will see several pictures of the emperor Fu Xi and his bride Nu Wa. Both of which are half dragon and both of which form a caduceus-like pattern.










Sorry to break into this mostly useless tangent. I thought that perhaps something here would appeal to a few of you.

Toodles all!
Many have related this pattern to the double helix and the genetic code. This comes from the pattern itself and the fact that Fu Xi is traditionally seen as the father of the i ching. The i ching seems to be hitting a vogue in the weirder communities of late as being tied to the genetic make up(64 combinations and 64 hexagrams) so they see his double helix pattern when combined with the I ching as a sign that this mythological ruler was savvy to the genetic code and the various other bits and pieces which make us up. He is also seen as the inventor of writing and if he just could not be cool enough, fishing.


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  #117  
Old January 14th, 2006, 4:49 am
JohnDL  Undisclosed.gif JohnDL is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Emerald:
Oh Bravo, Rust. The placement of Dumbledore's scar being on the "bee's knee(s)"! Anyone know if that expression is used at all by the British? If so, JKR might once again have been giving us a very offhand, obscure, but meaningful clue.
Actually, yes. There's several pubs with that name. I don't know if this usage has anything to do with US 1920's Lindy Hop slang, or instead comes from the location of the honeybee's pollen baskets which are near the bee's "knees." I suspect the latter. Honey as we all know is an ingredient in Mead, also is used to placate Cerberus.

Looking up "bee" in mythology: This site tells us:
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Like some other archaic names of Greek cities, such as Athenai or Mycenae, Hyrai is a plural form: its name once had evoked the place of "the sisters of the beehive". According to Hesychios, the Cretan word hyron {the discussion here is about Orion} meant 'swarm of bees' or 'beehive' (Kerenyi 1976 pp42-3). Through his "beehive" birthplace Orion is linked to Potnia, the Minoan-Mycenaean "Mistress" older than Demeter—who was herself sometimes called "the pure Mother Bee". Winged, armed with toxin, creators of the fermentable honey (see mead), seemingly parthenogenetic in their immortal hive, bees functioned as emblems of other embodiments of the Great Mother: Cybele, Rhea the Earth Mother, and the archaic Artemis as honored at Ephesus. Pindar remembered that the Pythian pre-Olympic priestess of Delphi remained "the Delphic bee" long after Apollo had usurped the ancient oracle and shrine. The Homeric Hymn to Apollo acknowledges that Apollo's gift of prophecy first came to him from three bee-maidens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_(mythology)
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In the ancient Near East and throughout the Aegean world, bees were seen as a bridge between the natural world and the underworld. Bees were carved on tombs. The Mycenaean tholos tombs even took the form of beehives.
http://www.main.org/cahbs/writhist.htm
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The mention of bees or honey in Greek and Roman mythology is common. The Roman Goddess Mellona was the protector of bees and the home of the gods on the summit of Mt. Olympus was where the nectar was served as the favored drink. Apollo's second temple was built by bees and the ancient celtic goddess Brigid had an orchard in the Otherworld that was visited by bees... Plato's doctrine of the transmigration of souls states that the souls of quiet people come to life as bees!
http://www.mjt.org/exhibits/bees/beesadd.htm
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This belief that the bee is a soul of one departed is undoubtedly the origin of the belief of "Telling the bees," for souls of the departed, are they not in communion with God?
This site would not load correctly, I had to read it in the source HTML: http://www.blessedbee.ca/encyclopedi..._mythology.php
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Both Priapus and Pan are described as protectors of bees. It is not surprising that both are fertility gods - the annual growth, near death, and renewal of bees is a powerful metaphor for the annual cycle of all of nature, and for the circle of life itself.
http://www.kendall-bioresearch.co.uk...insect.htm#bee
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Throughout ancient egyptian history the bee has been strongly associated with royal titles. In Predynastic and early Dynastic times, before the union of Upper and Lower Egypt, the rulers of Lower Egypt used the title bit - meaning 'he of the bee', usually translated as 'King of Lower Egypt' or 'King of North', whereas the rulers of Upper Egypt were called nesw - meaning 'he of the sedge', translated as 'King of Upper Egypt' or 'King of the South'. In later times, after the union of Upper and Lower Egypt, the pharaoh rulers used the title nesw-bit - meaning 'he of the sedge and the bee', which is conventionally translated as 'King of Upper and Lower Egypt' or 'King of the South and North'.
From "Celtic Animal Allies," site is worth a read but I think we have referenced it before: http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Ce...malallies.html
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Bee (Beach): The bee is usually mentioned in connection with honey and mead, which was made from honey. The bee is industrious, single-minded when performing a task, and fearless when defending its home.
http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=beowulf
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{Beowulf} Possibly means "bee wolf" (in effect equal to "bear") from Old English beo "bee" and wulf "wolf". This is the name of the main character in the anonymous 8th-century epic poem 'Beowulf'. The poem tells how Beowulf slays the monster Grendel and its mother, but goes on to tell how he is killed in his old age fighting a dragon.
Grindelwald and Draco, by any chance? Dare we read Beowulf? I suspect its been looked into already, though not by me.

This site has a useful compendium of mythological comparisons, but like most Tripod sites it does not get along well with browsers: http://greek-gods.tripod.com/

This site tells us the Blue Honeywort is useful for magick: http://www.alchemy-works.com/cerinthe_major.html


OK, 'nuff of that beesnees... Back to the first site above, Lets follow through and look at Orion, who represents a transition from the shamanic "Lord of the Animals" into a version of Cernunnos:

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Orion, one of the Titans of Greek mythology, provided the archetype of the primordial hunter in Greek culture. In modern interpretations Orion ("mountain man" if the name is truly Greek) exists on three mythic planes. On the Neolithic level he is a shaman, the "master of the animals," an Aegean counterpart to Enkidu, the wild companion of Sumerian/Babylonian Gilgamesh...
...
What was the Titan Orion, then, before the pomegranate transmuted him? Orion, literally "mountain-man," (compare orogeny) embodies some primeval aspects of untouched nature.
...
Orion and Merope

When he came ashore, Orion found that he was once again in a place called Hyrai, another bee-swarm, but in the island of Chios. The two Hyrai may have functioned as two entrances to the netherworld, which would have enabled Orion to pass between Boeotia and Chios in a chthonic journey. In later Classical times, the "tomb" of Orion that was shown to visitors in Boeotia may have been the cave-entrance.
...
Logically, the episode that resulted in Orion's blinding would have to be the next episode, though no connected string of episodes for Orion survives in Greek literature. This transpired in the island of Chios, where Orion sought Merope, whose Greek name seems to mean "honey-faced" in Greek, thus "eloquent," but surely at an earlier level her "face" was a bee-mask. The variety of "Meropes" in isolated mythic fragments suggests that a "merope" denotes a position, a priestess rather than an individual...

Under the old regime that Orion embodies, Oinopion would have been the annual consort of the Merope, but at the time level of the Orion myths, he had become a guardian-sponsor represented as her "father" instead, though Oinopion betrayed a most unfatherlike jealousy and determination to preserve his position. When the Titan offered himself as a candidate for the role of consort to Merope, Oinopion set Orion a challenging contest to justify his right. Since he was so famed as a hunter, Orion had to rid the island of all its dangerous wild beasts. There was a shift in roles here, for the animal-master of the Neolithic had originally been the spirit-protector of the animals, similar to the untamed Enkidu, who released them from the hunters' traps and springes. At the Neolithic level, the Master of the Animals was their protector; the hunter had to propitiate him, so that he would release the animals from his care; only then could the hunt be successful. Orion, like primal Enkidu also the "offspring of the mountains," had been at one with the wild creatures until he achieved self-consciousness. Now the "awakened" Animal Master hunted them himself. There was further irony in Oinopion's demand, if the "bee-eater" were herself a bear. And in his heart the usurping Oinopion was unwilling to be bested, to resign, though no longer to be sacrificed in the archaic way, even though Orion might successfully master the ritual contests.
Quote:
Emerald:
As knowledgable as you are, you've likely considered this before, but what about the differences in levels of ions in the atmostphere is these different areas?
Heard about this, but I've never looked into it. Years ago, friends had an ionic generator in their house, swore by it, but I couldn't feel any difference in the short exposures I got.

Quote:
Emerald:
I really don't know anything about all this, but it seems logical that there is some connection to the trance abilities of Yogis, who can lower their heartbeats to a mere 3-4 beats per minute, can endure what others would consider unbearable pain, and may even be able to levitate. Perhaps they have found their way back to 7.83 HZ or an even lower, subatomic resonance frequency. It would also seem logical that shamans are doing the same thing while journeying and healing.
Yes, there is a connection, though it isn't as simple as lowering the HZ into that range or lower. I can do that consciously, and we all do it in our sleep. There have been brain scans done on meditating monks and praying nuns, and there have been a couple times where a "Genu-wine Indian Guru" was wired up. What these studies show is a whole-spectrum pattern rather than a settling into one range.

Quote:
Emerald:
Say.... do you suppose it's possible to apparate into the Otherworld???
I suspect not, but it does seem to be consistent with the "three D's" Wilkie Twycross taught us. Mainly, you'd have to have a very good picture of your destination in mind, and that might be a bit of a do if you hadn't been there before.

Quote:
Emerald:
But my point here is that I've always had the strange feeling that maybe, just maybe, JKR is able to seemingly incorporate knowledge from sooo many different disciplines because similar concepts are, to a degree, universal.
I think so, and that's why she can jump from something that clearly derives from Greek mythology to something Celtic, and get away with it without the continuity suffering. We look at it and see (or sense if we are not consciously familiar with the stories; they are embedded in our language from infancy) the Celtic parallel to the Greek, then in the second we see the Greek parallel to the Celtic. We get both, and the richness of the content of both, even though she only used one of each. But she'd really have to know her way around the onion patch to make it work.

When the Spanish missionaries made it to the New World, they found Aztec and Mayan legends so similar to elements of the Christian story that they wondered if Jesus had been known there before the Conquistadores arrived. There's a lot that's universal in Christianity too, and my own thinking on the subject is that if those elements had not been there, nobody would have paid any attention at all.

Quote:
Emerald:
My own studies, which are admittedly very limited, have led me to surmise that the highly esoteric connotations of the Gospels' original Aramaic text indicate that Gnosticism may be the closest thing to a "true" Christianity. It also has much stronger parallels, imo, to multiple belief systems than does the later, orthodox Christianity endorsed by the Roman empire.

These are some of the more noteworthy ideas that do seem to keep cropping up in the HP books. If my grand supposition that the Divine is working through Ms. Rowling has any validity, which of course we cannot prove, then that Divine would seem to be endorsing the older model of Gnostic Christianity as well.
I'm hoping WeaselDiva will pop up and tell us what the "true" Christianity is. But here's a short gloss on the early stuff. Some years after Jesus' death or, acording to the Moslems, faked death, there was a schism between Paul and James, brother of Jesus. Paul was a Roman citizen whose vision sent him to convert the gentiles. This was anathemic to James, who felt the Law was the important thing and wanted to keep the revelation of Jesus for Jews. So, the early Christian church split. Through a well known historical process, the Pauline Church, which some scholars think is more closely related to the "Cult of Sol Invictus" than to Jesus, became the official Church of Rome. Through a much less well-known process, the Christianity of James led to Islam some 5 1/2 centuries later. At some point the Sufis, who pre-existed Islam, became Moslems.

In 73 AD, the Maccabean revolt was crushed and the the Jewish population was dispersed throughout the Roman Empire (Jerusalem was unoccupied for a couple centuries as I recall). That empire contained, as one of its top prizes, Egypt, and of course at the time Alexandria was the intellectual center of Egypt and of the southern Roman Empire generally. Many educated Jews found refuge in the Jewish community in Alexandria, including quite a few Christians.

So in second and third century Alexandria you had a boiling pot of Egyptian magic and funerary chemistry, a couple hundred religions, the world's greatest library, astrologers and astronomers (not much difference in those days), numerous people who could read, and most probably a few harmine farmers and psychedelic chemists as well... End result was a crossbreeding of Christianity (and Judaism for that matter) with everything, in some form.

Two things that came up together and are linked in a number of ways were Hermeticism and Gnosticism. Hermetecism had elements of Egyptian funerary chemistry that made it unique in a lot of respects, but the basic idea of the Gnostics- illumination by personal revelation- is firmly in place from the start. Valentinus, a well known Gnostic, was active in Alexandria, before travelling to Rome and almost becoming Pope (later, according to Tertullian getting expelled from the Church for original thinking, though perhaps posthumously).

http://www.gnosis.org/valentinus.htm
Excerpt:
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The often-debated cosmogony of Valentinus might be most profitably understood as being based on a single existential recognition, which might be summarized thus: Something is wrong. Somewhere, somehow, the fabric of being at the existential level of human functioning has lost its integrity. We live in a system which is lacking in essential integrity, and thus is defective. So-called orthodox Christians as well as Jews recognize that there is a certain "wrongness" in human existence, but they account for it chiefly in terms of the effects of human sin, original or other. Jews and Christians hold that whatever is wrong with the world and human existence is the result of human disobedience to the creator. This means, that all evil, discomfort, and terror in our lives and in history are somehow our fault. A great cosmic statement of "Mea Culpa" runs through this world view, which permanently affixes to the human psyche an element of titanic guilt. Valentinus, in opposition to this guilt-ridden view of life, held that the above-noted defect is not the result of our wrongdoing, but is inherent in the system of existence wherein we live and move and have our being. Moreover, by postulating that creation itself is lacking in integrity, Valentinus not only removes the weight of personal and collective guilt from our shoulders but also points to the redemptive potential resident in the soul of every human being.

Humans live in an absurd world that can be rendered meaningful only by Gnosis, or self-knowledge. When referring to the myth of the creation of the world by a god, Valentinus shifts the blame for the condition of cosmic defect from humanity to creative divinity. That God the creator could be at fault in anything is of course tantamount to blasphemy in the eyes of the orthodox. What we need to recognize, however, is that Valentinus does not view the creator with the worshipful eyes of the Judeo-Christian believer, but rather sees the creator - along with other divinities - as a mythologem. Much evidence could be adduced to demonstrate this, but one must suffice here, taken from the Gospel of Philip:

God created man and man created God. So is it in the world. Men make gods and they worship their creations. If would be fitting for the gods to worship men. (Logion 85: 1-4)
Quote:
Barmy:
JohnDL's summary has two virtues: being the first I've seen -and I've posted musings on the question before, and being very plausible. I should have thanked him for that and do so now.
Thank YOU, and you're quite welcome!

Quote:
Rust:
Especially if our posts have lingered in some form then. They will think us secret magicians in laboratories making spiritual and pharmaceutical advancements of the mind and soul.
Sobering thought.

--- Strong winds blowing, I think I'd better sign off before the power goes out. Good night!



Last edited by JohnDL; January 14th, 2006 at 5:51 am.
  #118  
Old January 14th, 2006, 7:04 am
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barmy codger  Undisclosed.gif barmy codger is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Though we also see that Adam had "Divine Knowledge".
This theme is considered in the beginning of 'Shamans, Healers, and Medicine Men' which I guess you will get to read soon:
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The Indonesian Miau were in direct communication with the supreme spirit in the primordial time; they traveled back and forth freely between heaven and earth. We encounter related traditions among the Tibeto-Chinese peoples. In the primordial time, spirits and humans lived in harmony together; but through a trespass on the part of humanity, this connection was lost. Today, few have access to the spheres of the spirit world.
I guesss this corresponds to the 'green language'.
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So I read through the book hoping for a bit more info on his divine knowledge.
Related to this is:
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THE SACRED WORD YOD-HE-VAU-HE.
The Kabbalah and the Sacred Word--The Yod--The He--The Vau--The second He--Synthesis of the Sacred Word.
ACCORDING to the ancient oral tradition of the Hebrews, or Kabbalah, 1 a sacred word exists, which gives to the mortal who can discover the correct way of pronouncing it, the key to all the sciences, divine and human. This word, which the Israelites never uttered, and which the High Priest pronounced once a year, amidst the shouts of the laity, is found at the head of every initiative ritual, it radiates from the centre of the flaming triangle at the
p. 18
[paragraph continues] 33rd degree of the Freemasonry of Scotland, it is displayed above the gateways of our old cathedrals, is formed of four Hebrew letters, and reads thus, Yod-he-vau-he, יהוה.
It is used in the Sepher Bereschit, or Genesis of Moses, to designate the divinity, and its grammatical construction recalls even by its formation 1 the attributes which men have always delighted to ascribe to God. Now we shall see that the powers attributed to this word are real up to a certain point, for with its aid the symbolical gate of the arch, which contains the explanation of the whole doctrine of ancient science, is easily opened. It is therefore necessary to enter into some detail respecting it.
This is from 'The Tarot of the Bohemians' by Papus. Online text here:http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/ The quote is from the first chapter which I recommend to anyone who hasn't enough to read already. I'm no scholar and have limited experience with the subject, and limited aptitude for numerology and such correspondences, but this chapter stood out for its clear and sympathetic explanation of the matter.

An important aspect of the subject is the correspondence between the sacred word and numbers. From another book 'The Greek Qabalah' (1999), by Kieren Barry:
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The older and simpler Milesian, or alphabetic, system used every letter in the alphabet to represent a number. It came into general use during the Alexandrian age and continued beyond the Roman period into the Byzantine era. Three archaic letters (digamma as 6, qappa as 90, and sanpi as 900) continued to be used with the twenty-four of the classical Greek alphabet. This gave twenty-seven letters, enough symbols to represent the nine integers, nine bultiples of ten, and nine multiples of a hundred.

The innovative idea of using sound symbols to denote numbers was later carried across the Mediterranean, during the period that followed the massive conquests of Alexander, know as the Helenistic Age (338 to 30 B.C.E).
And from a chapter 'The Gnostics':
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All surviving evidence shows that Greek Qabalah played a prominent role in the development of Gnostic doctrine through the teachings of Gnostic figures such as Marcus, Marsanes, and Monoimus. In turn, the extremely close relationship between Gnosticism and early Christianity indicates Gnostic influence in the introduction of Greek Qabalah into Christian thought. We have already seen, for example, how in the important second century C.E. Gnostic text known as the Pistis Sophia, authorship of which is usually attributed to Valentinus himself, Jesus uses Qabalistic exegesis to explain the symbolism of the name IAO to his disciples.
And a final quote, from the chapter 'The Jews':
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Under the Macedonian rule, the Jews also adopted the Greek alphabetic system of numeration, which soon became well established in Judea. Jewish use of the alphabet for numbers is first found on coins of the Maccabean period (second century B.C.E.), and the system was apparently introduced even in the Temple itself, where Greek letters were also used to indicate numbers. It is therefore surprising to note that many writers persist in the misconception that alphabetic numerals were first invented by the Jews, when, in fact, they were half a millennium behind the Greeks in using such a system.
It has been a while since I looked at this book. Looks like I should go through it again -it will mean more this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
But peanut butter does make most everything better.
It can put some people I know into a hospital.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
I loathe the Bunny Hop.
Maybe so, but it's what a bunny does in life.
Quote:
Orion, one of the Titans of Greek mythology, provided the archetype of the primordial hunter in Greek culture. In modern interpretations Orion ("mountain man" if the name is truly Greek) exists on three mythic planes. On the Neolithic level he is a shaman, the "master of the animals," an Aegean counterpart to Enkidu, the wild companion of Sumerian/Babylonian Gilgamesh...
About Orion, I've posted this information before: From 'Hamlet's Mill' (http://phoenixandturtle.net/excerptmill/santillana.htm), chapter XI, Samson Under Many Skies:
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19. But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof En-hak'ko-re, which is in Le'hi unto this day.
20. And he judged Israel in the days of the Philistines twenty years.

166

The passage has been bowdlerized in the Revised Version to make it more plausible, but verse 18 is an unshakable reminder that this was not an ordinary bone, or even "the place" of it as suggested recently. For that jaw is in heaven. It was the name given by the Babylonians to the Hyades, which were placed in Taurus as the "Jaw of the Bull." If we remember the classic tag "the rainy Hyades" it is because Hyades meant "watery." In the Babylonian creation epic, which antedates Samson, Marduk uses the Hyades as a boomerang-like weapon to destroy the brood of heavenly monsters. The whole story takes place among the gods. It is known, too, that Indra's powerful weapon, Vajra, the Thunderbolt made of the bones of horse-headed Dadhyank, was not of this earth .

The story is so universal that it must be seen as spanning the globe. In South America, where bulls were still unknown, the Arawaks, the Tupi, the Quechua of Ecuador spoke of the "jaw of the tapir," which was connected with the great god, Hunrakan, the hurricane, who certainly knows how to slay his thousands. In our sky, the name of the celestial Samson is Orion, the mighty hunter, alias Nimrod. He remains such even in China as "War Lord Tsan," the huntmaster of the autumn hunt, but the Hyades are changed there into a net for catching birds. In Cambodia, Orion himself became a trap for tigers; in Borneo, tigers not being available, pigs have to substitute; and in Polynesia, deprived of every kind of big game, Orion is found in the shape of a huge snare for birds. It is this snare that Maui, creator-hero and trickster, used to catch the Sunbird; but having captured it, he proceeded to beat it up and with what?the jawbone of Muri Ranga Whenua, his own respected grandmother.

If one brings Samson the biblical Shimshon back to earth, he becomes a preposterous character, or rather, no character at all, except for his manic violence and his sudden passions. It comes as a shock, after reading that chaotic and whimsical life, to find: "And he judged Israel twenty years." For if anyone was bereft of judgment, it was this berserker. As Frazer remarks, one doubts whether he particularly adorned the bench.

167

Yet there is a mysterious importance to his person. On him was piled a hoard of classic fairy tales, like "the man whose soul was placed elsewhere" (the external soul), and the insistent motif of fatal betrayal by women, the motif of Herakles and Llew Llaw Gyffes. More than that, he is an incongruous montage of nonhuman functions which could no longer be put together intelligibly, and were crowded together with cinematographic haste. Even his feats as a young Herakles, tearing a lion apart, change over in a flash to the generation of bees from a carcass, recalling the time-honored bougonia of the fourth book of Virgil's Georgics.
About homunculi, my alternative readings and Dumbledore's position as maybe the alchemist in the story made me think of Harry as a homunculus, created either by Dumbledore or by his 'parents'. This hint of an idea is what I started with in the alchemy thread. Whizbang immediately thought instead of house-elves. What I had not considered at all at the time was Voldemort as homunculus. I still don't consider that angle much. Progressing from the idea of homunculus, the discussion considered the golem and the interesting thing about it being marked on the forehead to bring it to life. With doug_rogers' ideas behind this, I wonder whether Harry was set up to receive Voldemort's soul. Arguments against his being a homunculus would include the Prophecy saying the One would be 'born', and the fact that he was a year old when attacked. A final argument against it is that the whole concept would shock most readers and I think Ms Rowling would not subject anyone to that. I don't know how she could disguise the phenomenon, either, to slip it past the unsuspecting. doug_roger's more plausible scenario, that Harry's soul was forced out of him, raised so many objections that I don't see how a more extreme view will fly at all.

But there is something going on. Last night I was listening to 'Seven Souls', a CD by a group called 'Material' (headed by Bill Laswell). I was trying to read at the same time but I should have paid attention because one selection called 'Soul Killer' is music with a discourse by William Burroughs about the Egyptian idea of the soul. I caught the part where he says something about the soul being an electromagnetic phenomenon and that the radiation of the atomic bomb is able to destroy the soul -the 'soul killer'. He also bemoaned the fact the device was in the hands of the government -CIA, and the like. I plan to listen again closely.

One question from dwelling on the twin serpents is whether or not Harry and Voldemort are the twins. I think not. It is possible that Harry is in charge of one aspect of Voldemort, accounting for the parallels made between the two characters. Possibly Harry is in charge of both serpents of Voldemort, as both serpents -the ascending and descending energies between the cosmos and earth, are shown on the staff in the hand of Mercury..


  #119  
Old January 14th, 2006, 3:41 pm
rust_loup  Male.gif rust_loup is offline
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Actually, yes. There's several pubs with that name. I don't know if this usage has anything to do with US 1920's Lindy Hop slang, or instead comes from the location of the honeybee's pollen baskets which are near the bee's "knees." I suspect the latter. Honey as we all know is an ingredient in Mead, also is used to placate Cerberus.
Raspberry Jam or Royal Jelly?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Like some other archaic names of Greek cities, such as Athenai or Mycenae, Hyrai is a plural form: its name once had evoked the place of "the sisters of the beehive". According to Hesychios, the Cretan word hyron {the discussion here is about Orion} meant 'swarm of bees' or 'beehive' (Kerenyi 1976 pp42-3). Through his "beehive" birthplace Orion is linked to Potnia, the Minoan-Mycenaean "Mistress" older than Demeter—who was herself sometimes called "the pure Mother Bee". Winged, armed with toxin, creators of the fermentable honey (see mead), seemingly parthenogenetic in their immortal hive, bees functioned as emblems of other embodiments of the Great Mother: Cybele, Rhea the Earth Mother, and the archaic Artemis as honored at Ephesus. Pindar remembered that the Pythian pre-Olympic priestess of Delphi remained "the Delphic bee" long after Apollo had usurped the ancient oracle and shrine. The Homeric Hymn to Apollo acknowledges that Apollo's gift of prophecy first came to him from three bee-maidens.

Upon reading that, the first thing which jumped to my mind was the mention of Apollo. The first thing that jumps to my mind whenever I see a mention of Apollo is the story of Phaeton. Here

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Thus the day beckoned the horses of the Sun who were pawing the ground and letting out blasts of the fiery flames with each snort. wit a bolt, they charged forth. But their load was much lighter than what they were used to, so these steeds ran faster and wilder than usual.

poor Phaeton was terror-stricken and could barely hold the reins much less restrain the powerful horses. Higher and higher the stallions went and thus the rays of the Sun chariot grew distant from the Earth. The sky turned black as night, with the Sun only as a speck of light far above. The horses of the sun ran towards the pole star and in doing so came near the giant serpent. This serpent for ages had been sluggish and harmless since it was in the icy-cold regions of the pole star. But now the great heat from the sun chariot awoke the horrible snake and it hissed, exhaling poisonous breath.

And through my Harry Potter blinkers, it also leads me to the story of Apollo and the Sybil. I have had a hard time finding exactly which Sybil this is, as there were many and were never named simply identified by location. If Bulfinch told us, I am unable to find it in my copy of Age of Fable.(not saying much as the copy is roughly 80 years old and is very worn)



Here

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AS Ćneas and the Sibyl pursued their way back to earth, he said to her, “Whether thou be a goddess or a mortal beloved of the gods, by me thou shalt always be held in reverence. When I reach the upper air I will cause a temple to be built to thy honor, and will myself bring offerings.” “I am no goddess,” said the Sibyl; “I have no claim to sacrifice or offering. I am mortal; yet if I could have accepted the love of Apollo I might have been immortal. He promised me the fulfilment of my wish, if I would consent to be his. I took a handful of sand, and holding it forth, said, ‘Grant me to see as many birthdays as there are sand grains in my hand.’ Unluckily I forgot to ask for enduring youth. This also he would have granted, could I have accepted his love, but offended at my refusal, he allowed me to grow old. My youth and youthful strength fled long ago. I have lived seven hundred years, and to equal the number of the sand grains I have still to see three hundred springs and three hundred harvests. My body shrinks up as years increase, and in time, I shall be lost to sight, but my voice will remain, and future ages will respect my sayings.” 1
These concluding words of the Sibyl alluded to her prophetic power. In her cave she was accustomed to inscribe on leaves gathered from the trees the names and fates of individuals. The leaves thus inscribed were arranged in order within the cave, and might be consulted by her votaries. But if perchance at the opening of the door the wind rushed in and dispersed the leaves the Sibyl gave no aid to restoring them again, and the oracle was irreparably lost.


and this may be of interest, also.


Here



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
In the ancient Near East and throughout the Aegean world, bees were seen as a bridge between the natural world and the underworld. Bees were carved on tombs. The Mycenaean tholos tombs even took the form of beehives.

Have you found any explanation as to why they are considered a bridge?


I notice mention is made of Merope a little down, but I had to mention something now in relation to bees.
Here
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The bee-eaters are a group of near passerine birds in the family Meropidae. They are characterised by richly coloured plumage, slender bodies and usually elongated central tail feathers.
Thats right, Meropes eat bees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Grindelwald and Draco, by any chance? Dare we read Beowulf? I suspect its been looked into already, though not by me.
Life is amusing at times. Tuesday night, I was helping a friend of Robyn's write a highschool essay on Beowolf. Her teacher wanted the "moral' behind the story, which told me that everyone in the class was going to write a Christianity inspired paper on good verses evil. Dee and I took her essay a seperate direction and instead wrote on man's own struggle against his own bestial nature. Beowulf and Grendel were taken as the opposing aspects of the same person. We have Grendel as the descendent of Cain, and Beowolf as the descendent of Seth. Both of which are sons of Adam and therefore heirs of his nature. This struggle against one's nature is echoed in the wording of the tale where man and beast are juxtaposed in various situations to illustrate human the man vs human the animal, our fight against our own bestial selves. My favorite examples are of Beowolf's father's need of weregild (man gold or man price) for the killing of a Wulfing(wolf clan). Were(man) and Wulf(wolf) are of course the early origin words of the word werewolf. But in this case I think the two are used as a means of showing one's struggle against one's own nature and Beowulf's inheritance of both aspects, through his father and through the slain Wulfing( Heatholaf), and symbolically all the way to Adam. We also questioned Grendel's mother in relation to Cain. Would it be symbolic of Cain's blood mother Eve? Or could it perhaps be symbolic of the first banished person and the mother of all hob-goblins and the like, Lillith.

She aced the paper by the way, a thing which I feel like beaming with pride over. If I had turned in such a paper I would have failed on mere principal lol.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
The variety of "Meropes" in isolated mythic fragments suggests that a "merope" denotes a position, a priestess rather than an individual...
Many Meropes just as there are many Sybils. I wonder if Rowling naming her characters after titles that were assigned to multiple people means we may see the "New Merope" or the "New Sybil". And Merope being a priestess title plays in nicely to the past mentions of the Chamber of Secrets seeming to be a bit like a temple.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
The often-debated cosmogony of Valentinus might be most profitably understood as being based on a single existential recognition, which might be summarized thus: Something is wrong. Somewhere, somehow, the fabric of being at the existential level of human functioning has lost its integrity. We live in a system which is lacking in essential integrity, and thus is defective. So-called orthodox Christians as well as Jews recognize that there is a certain "wrongness" in human existence, but they account for it chiefly in terms of the effects of human sin, original or other. Jews and Christians hold that whatever is wrong with the world and human existence is the result of human disobedience to the creator. This means, that all evil, discomfort, and terror in our lives and in history are somehow our fault. A great cosmic statement of "Mea Culpa" runs through this world view, which permanently affixes to the human psyche an element of titanic guilt. Valentinus, in opposition to this guilt-ridden view of life, held that the above-noted defect is not the result of our wrongdoing, but is inherent in the system of existence wherein we live and move and have our being. Moreover, by postulating that creation itself is lacking in integrity, Valentinus not only removes the weight of personal and collective guilt from our shoulders but also points to the redemptive potential resident in the soul of every human being.

Humans live in an absurd world that can be rendered meaningful only by Gnosis, or self-knowledge. When referring to the myth of the creation of the world by a god, Valentinus shifts the blame for the condition of cosmic defect from humanity to creative divinity. That God the creator could be at fault in anything is of course tantamount to blasphemy in the eyes of the orthodox. What we need to recognize, however, is that Valentinus does not view the creator with the worshipful eyes of the Judeo-Christian believer, but rather sees the creator - along with other divinities - as a mythologem. Much evidence could be adduced to demonstrate this, but one must suffice here, taken from the Gospel of Philip:

God created man and man created God. So is it in the world. Men make gods and they worship their creations. If would be fitting for the gods to worship men. (Logion 85: 1-4)
That mirrors a bit of how I see a creator-type deity. If a piece of software is malfunctioning that is a result of the flaws of the programmer, not the result of the program. If we are faulty software, then it is because our programmer is flawed. If I were to believe in a creator deity, I do not thing that flaw would ruin any fondness I would hold for it. It would actually draw me closer to it knowing it did the best job it could and that it, just like all of us, is fallibale and thus prone to our flaws, our hurts, and our joys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDL
Strong winds blowing, I think I'd better sign off before the power goes out. Good night!
Hope all goes well. We got snow


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
This theme is considered in the beginning of 'Shamans, Healers, and Medicine Men' which I guess you will get to read soon:

So very soon *greedy book junky face*



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
The Indonesian Miau were in direct communication with the supreme spirit in the primordial time; they traveled back and forth freely between heaven and earth. We encounter related traditions among the Tibeto-Chinese peoples. In the primordial time, spirits and humans lived in harmony together; but through a trespass on the part of humanity, this connection was lost. Today, few have access to the spheres of the spirit world.

This puts me in mind of my belief and many mentionings of man, at one time, seeing little or no distinction between the physical and the spiritual. And also as I have said before, that there are still some like that. Shamans mostly but not all.




Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
THE SACRED WORD YOD-HE-VAU-HE.
The Kabbalah and the Sacred Word--The Yod--The He--The Vau--The second He--Synthesis of the Sacred Word.
ACCORDING to the ancient oral tradition of the Hebrews, or Kabbalah, 1 a sacred word exists, which gives to the mortal who can discover the correct way of pronouncing it, the key to all the sciences, divine and human. This word, which the Israelites never uttered, and which the High Priest pronounced once a year, amidst the shouts of the laity, is found at the head of every initiative ritual, it radiates from the centre of the flaming triangle at the
p. 18
[paragraph continues] 33rd degree of the Freemasonry of Scotland, it is displayed above the gateways of our old cathedrals, is formed of four Hebrew letters, and reads thus, Yod-he-vau-he, יהוה.
It is used in the Sepher Bereschit, or Genesis of Moses, to designate the divinity, and its grammatical construction recalls even by its formation 1 the attributes which men have always delighted to ascribe to God. Now we shall see that the powers attributed to this word are real up to a certain point, for with its aid the symbolical gate of the arch, which contains the explanation of the whole doctrine of ancient science, is easily opened. It is therefore necessary to enter into some detail respecting it.
Ah, the tetragrammaton. God's true name, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc. Often invoked by magician's seeking power.

The Eliphas Levi, Solomon seal contains the Tetragrammaton in it, as well as Adonai which is the word used in lieu of god's name to avoid saying it. It means roughly, "Lord" I believe. Also pictured in it is one of the four-headed seraphim Emerald63 made mention of.





I also have some other similar seals from Levi at home in my copy of "Natural Magic" I shall scan it when I get home from work. It appears that I am now on the way to making much use of the woodcuts and prints in that book lol.




Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Under the Macedonian rule, the Jews also adopted the Greek alphabetic system of numeration, which soon became well established in Judea. Jewish use of the alphabet for numbers is first found on coins of the Maccabean period (second century B.C.E.), and the system was apparently introduced even in the Temple itself, where Greek letters were also used to indicate numbers. It is therefore surprising to note that many writers persist in the misconception that alphabetic numerals were first invented by the Jews, when, in fact, they were half a millennium behind the Greeks in using such a system.

Ooo registered happily into the noggin. Books on numerology tend to focus on Hebrew and its numerical values as opposed to the Greek which they either ignore our down-play quite a bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
It can put some people I know into a hospital.

Ar, what would George Washington Carver say?



Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
Maybe so, but it's what a bunny does in life.
That and breed. There is a dance for ya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
In our sky, the name of the celestial Samson is Orion, the mighty hunter, alias Nimrod.

Would this be the biblical Nimrod? The hunter aspect sure fits as Nimrod was known for hunting animals and men (General Zaroff anyone?). He also set himself up as a deity and began construction of the Tower of Babel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barmy codger
One question from dwelling on the twin serpents is whether or not Harry and Voldemort are the twins. I think not. It is possible that Harry is in charge of one aspect of Voldemort, accounting for the parallels made between the two characters. Possibly Harry is in charge of both serpents of Voldemort, as both serpents -the ascending and descending energies between the cosmos and earth, are shown on the staff in the hand of Mercury..
Perhaps the serpents are the aspects at work upon the two and not the two themselves?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
Remembering here that Wormtail is in debt to Harry. Maybe he will be involved in the final vanquishing of Voldemort.I'm also remembering that glint in Dumbledore's eye when Harry told him about Voldemort using his blood,Hmmm...
Are you thinking that it may be more than just the blood itself? If two out of three of his parts rallied against him, I wonder what that could mean. I also wonder at the fact that of the parts that make him up, one comes from a dead person, and two come from living beings. It also makes me ponder whether the bone of the father was to set the genetic aspect of his body, but if so, why nothing of the mother?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
Ah, now I wonder if that is why I became a dancer. Well it's cheaper than drugs.
Lol, I am sorry but I just got the mental image of someone dancing like mad with a glassy eyed vacant expression. The Baked Waltz?



Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
Chips!Got to have chips! NOW !
Nah, potato chips are too salty, I prefer french fries sans the salt. (I refuse to give into your intimidation, they are french fries durn it )



Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
I'll look in my tree book. I think it is something about upsetting the faerie folk.
The reason I asked is that I had heard past mentions of a belief that the thorn crown of Christ was made from Hawthorne, but I would assume the tradition is as older than the introduction of Christianity into the area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet
Well, I think thats all for now, It's wel past my bedtime. Goodnight!
I would normally say sleep is for the weak but we all seem to have a weakspot for it of late. Oh well, at least we can all be weak together lol.

This Post from the Dragon's Blood: 12 Uses for Green or Red? thread makes mention of dragon's blood and the language of birds. The starter of the thread gives us two quotes. In one it says "the language of birds" but in the other it says "the language of the birds" I was curious as to whether anyone thinks this may be a reference to the green language?






Quote:
Quote:
{snip}...Western Medicine, perhaps, rooted its beliefs in mythology. The Norse story of Sigurd and the dragon showed that dragon's blood could allow a special kind of knowledge, such as the understanding of the language of the birds. Other uses included increased bravery. However, dragon blood was also believed to help remove kidney stones as well as the curing of blindness...{snip} (Emphasis added.)

Which leads to this:
Quote:
{snip}...In the Norse legend of Sigurd (Siegfried), the hero accidentally ingests dragon blood and is instantly gifted with knowledge of the language of birds. (A condition which proves to be most valuable, as the birds tip him off to situations which would otherwise have endangered his life.) In the Danish saga of Hrolf, ingestion of dragon blood also has a radical transformative effect: the cowardly friend of a dragon slayer drinks the dragon's blood and eats its heart and becomes brave and strong as a result. Other uses for dragon's blood included the expulsion of kidney and bladder stones and the curing of blindness...{snip} (Emphasis added.)

Does this information point to a different sort of dragon's blood than we have assumed?
Edited to add: Language of the Birds - does this point to Fawkes?


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Last edited by rust_loup; January 14th, 2006 at 3:44 pm.
  #120  
Old January 14th, 2006, 6:11 pm
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Re: Shamanism and the HBP Connection v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
Whether she knew this much about its associated rune or not, it seems JKR truly did pick the appropriate wood for Voldy's wand. Also, Barmy, take a look at Dagaz and see if it doesn't resemble one of the two Roman numeral tens from the Hendaye monument you referenced here:

On to Sirius's runes. The second rune-stave pictured in the mug shot ID card, Perthro, actually comes first in the Elder Futhark and thus has to be discussed first, as progression within the Futhark matters.
Like the inscription from Basil Valentine found running around Snape's office, the runes I bet are the inspired invention of very keen set designers. However, this doesn't detract from your ideas. I am working on book 5 and have just come to Luna reading the Quibbler which has 1) the story about Sirius being Stubby Boardman and 2) upside-down runes yielding a spell, so there may be some connection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I think you can see that the fetch concept can be associated with Sirius's animagus ability, hence its presence in his mug shot.
Sorry, can't help picturing 'grim-faced' (sic) Sirius with a newspaper in his mouth (book 4) -dog fetching paper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I also noted, Barmy, yet another item reminiscent of the Hendaye monument... "the serpentine mysteries of the north." And the whole process/progression from Voldemort on up through Harry also fits right in, again, with your scenario of Voldemort as shamanic/alchemical initiate and Harry as the process through which he will reach resolution/enlightenment.
I really appreciate the attention you have given to the page about the Hendaye cross and the ideas you have about it. A few years ago, before I knew anything about Harry Potter, before I had learned anything from the discussions on this forum, I had come to the conclusion from what little I had found to read that there was a shamanic basis to religion and a cosmological basis for myth. Only later through discussions about Harry Potter and the digging that went along with the talk did I learn how the astronomical and the spiritual were linked. That's why I keep nagging people here to look at the sky as well as the mushrooms on the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63
I'm seeing one of two things here...... either JKR is unbelievably, incredibly knowledgable about all things esoteric, or she is one hell of a conduit for the Powers That Be to funnel together all these different but oh-so-similar philosophies and cosmologies!!!
Thinking again of JohnDL's review of her probable credentials, it is still another matter to synthesize all that material into a meaningful work. As Whizbang put it, 'a precession myth for our age.' I should have commented earlier on your remarks but I have gotten pretty disorganised and distracted. In my clear moments I am proofreading some text, and at other times... well, sometimes I have been up 24 hours and sometimes I have slept 13 hours, and generally I seem to be on Indonesian time. I'm having some difficulty keeping things together. This steady rain and darkness hasn't helped. Here in Vancouver it has been raining mostly since at least a week before Christmas. Sometimes there's a clear break for a few hours, like right now. But more rain is on the way and a nearby community is prepared for mudslides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Tuesday night, I was helping a friend of Robyn's write a highschool essay on Beowolf.
The lab I worked at handled the film for 'The 13th Warrior' which was originally titled 'Eaters of the Dead'. (yes, think of Death Eaters), based on Michael Crichton's book. So some of us at the lab read it. (This is one movie I didn't watch because what little I saw of it looked not worthwhile.) The story was a retelling of Beowulf. His thesis was that it was a culture clash between the Neanderthal and the Cro-Magnon. Your interpretation is essentially the same but in different terms -all to your credit, I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Ooo registered happily into the noggin. Books on numerology tend to focus on Hebrew and its numerical values as opposed to the Greek which they either ignore our down-play quite a bit.
I just checked -the book is available from A--zon (don't want to spam) and not expensive. Couple reviews at the site, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rust_loup
Lol, I am sorry but I just got the mental image of someone dancing like mad with a glassy eyed vacant expression. The Baked Waltz?.
Lots of people doing that dance in my neighbourhood. Heroin, or something like it.
Quote:
The starter of the thread gives us two quotes. In one it says "the language of birds" but in the other it says "the language of the birds" I was curious as to whether anyone thinks this may be a reference to the green language?
Yes, I'm sure it is.
Quote:
Edited to add: Language of the Birds - does this point to Fawkes?
Oh, very good! Food for thought to get me through the day. And it starts by considering the 'tradition' of the green language and the 'tradition' represented by Fawkes -somehow that tradition involving the phoenix, Dumbledore, and the artifacts of Gryffindor. Hmmm.


 
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