Spinner's End #3 - Horcruxes and the Tarot

[navygreen]

Discussion for Spinner's End #3 - Horcruxes and the Tarot by Lady Lupin.

(Old discussion of this article can be found HERE.)

[NevilleCanDance]

Yay! First post. Anyways, very interesting editorial. Personally, I think that the mysterious horucrux is Godric Gryffindor's sword, the one Harry used in his second year. Wait, whatever happened to that sword. I don't remember. o_o

[Sookie]

Wow! Great thoughts here. I am very intrigued by the wand idea and find it very plausible. Same goes for the reason for Vance's death and Ollivander's disapearance. This spells, if it turns out to be the case, DOOM for our hero though, because it means Voldy's looking in on his horcruxes and it won't be long before he wants to say "Hey" to the locket and the ring. Thanks for the new thoughts!

[Iremione]

As much as I hate the idea of Harry and that Weasel brat remaining together... oh, dear, you might just be right... just; I'll stat something you didn't want to because it was too risky, I'll assume... Card 1- The magician; card 2- The high priestess; card 3- The empress; card 4- The emperor; card 5- The high priest; and card 6... The lovers... Could it be representative of Harry's linelife??

Iremione
Truly a Slyffinclaw, H+H Forever (oh! I'm a PROUD delusional!!), Snape rules!

[Sookie]

Originally Posted by Iremione

As much as I hate the idea of Harry and that Weasel brat remaining together... oh, dear, you might just be right... just; I'll stat something you didn't want to because it was too risky, I'll assume... Card 1- The magician; card 2- The high priestess; card 3- The empress; card 4- The emperor; card 5- The high priest; and card 6... The lovers... Could it be representative of Harry's linelife??

Iremione
Truly a Slyffinclaw, H+H Forever (oh! I'm a PROUD delusional!!), Snape rules!

No need to get all hostile about Ginny. This is not a ship thread.

Would you mind elaborating on your Harry's Lifeline comment. I'm intrigued, but I don't know what each of those cards stands for.

[Noodan]

great editorial.. it was very interesting!! ^_^

Originally Posted by ASM

Would you mind elaborating on your Harry's Lifeline comment. I'm intrigued, but I don't know what each of those cards stands for.

yes, please elaborate. it sounds interesting.. the only thing i could think of is kinda of obvious for the first two.. but are each cards representing each year at hogwarts (i.e: each book), or each stage of his life?...

card 1: the magician - hagrid's arrival? harry finding out he is a wizard.. ? or perhaps it is talking about his childhood.. the magician being Voldy...

card 2: The high priestess.. the only thing i could think of was it is the year ginny goes to hogwarts... and is posed by riddle.. etc..

haha.. these are total guesses... i don't know anything about tarot or what these cards mean.. ^-^

...

Swords

The obvious Sword in the HP series is Gryffindor's sword, which Harry uses to kill the Basilisk in CoS. As Gryffindor's, it would most likely not represent Air, as Swords do in Tarot, but Fire. However, it is significant in that it seems to be the only existing possession of Gryffindor's (except the Sorting Hat) and Voldemort does not seem to have been successful in turning it into a Horcrux. It acts decisively and clearly, appearing to Harry when he has need and accomplishing the action at hand. It arrives as a powerful force in a valiant struggle - a time of great difficulty and strife. It is motivated by valor, to come where great Love and great Hatred are present and offer assured success. In short, it behaves like the Ace of Swords. I think that Voldemort really wanted Gryffindor's sword for a Horcrux. I can imagine how angry and thwarted he felt when he had to leave without it. It was instrumental in helping Harry to destroy the first Horcrux, and I believe that it will come into play again.

ok.. i've been away from mugglenet and cos for a while... so i just want to ask:

is there any cannon proof that the sword was in DD's office when Voldy visited? i always thought that the word had been in the hat for many years/since the time of the founders... that being why it was so remarkable that harry was able to get it..

i was always one to believe that the sorting hat would be the ideal last horcrux.. not only is it an item that once belonged to gryffindor, but it has been enchanted by all four founders... and every single student since the hat was made has worn this hat.. i think, for that reason, it is one of the most significant magical items at the school. my point being.. i believe it was the hat that Voldy was angry and felt thwarted about when he had to leave without it. It was the hat that lead to harry getting the sword, and was therefore instrumental in helping Harry to destroy the first Horcrux, and I believe that it may come into play again.

anyway.. good job! ^-^

[raBBit]

wow very good points....im impressed as a person who involves with tarot...to be honest the first thing i tought when i saw the chapter on the book was that card and its meaning...so i was pretty ready for what i was going to read=))

[Sookie]

Originally Posted by raBBit

wow very good points....im impressed as a person who involves with tarot...to be honest the first thing i tought when i saw the chapter on the book was that card and its meaning...so i was pretty ready for what i was going to read=))

WELCOME raBBit!!! You say you are involved with Tarot? Would you mind elaborating on Iremione's theory?

[raBBit]

i dont know what she tries to mean with linelife, but lovers is not that an esy card....it has different meanings if it comes up with the empress or cups...but generally speaking, it represents love and choises that we have to make related with love(a romantic relationship with a partner might nott be the best choice)...the general mood in HBP is love as we have seen (lupin-tonks/harry-ginny/hermione-ron/ fleur-bill) but as we can see some of them were making choices like harry or lupin(him being a werewolf)...that card also symbolizes a great wedding(which can be bill and fleur's) and i guess if we stick on the love theory between Snape and Lily, it is also a sign for the future events which might include Harry- Snape realtionship and why(if there is one) did lily and snape brake up?.....

i think Iremione means the choices that harry has to make about his beloved ones and the effects of other love related relationships on harry's life(eg:Snape-lily/ hermione-ron)

and i also wanna add that if this card comes upside down it sybollizes the love triangles(snape-lily-james maybe), secret relationships*ding ding* and betrayal(snape joining Death Eaters or maybe Lily trying to make james jealous by using Snape or the opposite)

i think books are perfectly set on tarot cards and its good catch if you ask me....im pretty impressed. i knew JKR is a genuis but this....woooowww

[AbyBlutjager]

The Chariot is an interesting card. I immediately started to think about Sirius' flying motorbike, which Hagrid said he was returning to Sirius after delivering baby Harry to the Dursleys...and might Hagrid now show Harry where Sirius kept the motorbike, perhaps at the place Sirius bought with Uncle Alphard's money??
The Chariot could also be about Harry teaming up with members of other houses (D's Army people plus perhaps Draco and Snape) to defeat Voldemort. Though Harry must strike the final blow to Voldemort, other people can still help him get to that point.

The "wand"-related horcrux (if this is Jo's plan for them) could be a wand, true. If it's the wand of a Gryffindor, perhaps Ollivander or someone has access to Godric's wand. Or perhaps, Lily or James Potter's wand is in Voldemort's possession (stolen by someone after the attack on the Potters). If it's someone from Ravenclaw, Ollivander is still a contender for having what Voldemort wants. However, this adds to my recently-born theory that Snape's mom, Eileen Prince, might have been a Ravenclaw...I mean, she was known for playing Gobstones, for Merlin's sake! This would also add to Dumbledore's statements about the choices people make and lead to some juicy background for Snape's placement into Slytherin house....
I have also considered the possibility that a "wand" horcrux could be represented by a plaque or other award in the trophy room, especially if it was granted for charms or some other wandwork, and whom do we know who was brilliant at charms? Lily.

Just some of my musings after this very thought-provoking editorial.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, I certainly enjoyed the article. But I think I can provide some insight into the "switched" correspondences.

Rider-Waite Tarot, of course, has Sword/Air, Wand/Fire... however, I think (as do many others) that the correspondence here is an intentional misdirection. You'll note that older versions of the tarot have a quite different symbology than Waite-style tarot decks. This is because Waite (after the manner of Eliphas Levi), incorporated the symbology of the Hermetic Qabalah into his deck. So the key to understanding the correspondences should derive from there.

And looking there, we see that the Swords should actually correspond with Fire (Gryffindor), and Wands with Air (Ravenclaw). Hermetic magicians are notorious (as is evident when you even peek into Hermetic alchemy) for intentionally introducing mistakes or switching things about to confuse the uneducated. Esoteric vs. exoteric and all that. ^_^

And another tidbit that supports this essay: there is an obscure etymology for the word pentacle. According to etymonline.com, an alternate is Fr. pentacol, which means "an amulet worn about the neck" 14th c. from pend "to hang" a "to" col "neck"... interesting then, to correspond Slytherin's locket with the suit of pentacles, is it not?

Furthermore, if we consider the directions of the elements in terms of their qualities --- as defined by Aristotle-- We have:
Water-cold+wet
Air-hot+wet
Fire-hot+dry
Earth-cold+dry

The commonest correspondence you might see with directions (or winds), puts Air in the East, Fire in the South, and then something curious, Water in the West and Earth in the North. This, in essence, takes the opposite qualities and puts them next to each other. However, this modern correspondence has been argued elsewhere as one of those "switches", and that what is commonly attributed to North, Earth, should really be Water, and Earth itself should be in the West. (which makes sense with Ptolemy's "wind" correspondences) Could it be that JKR knows about this discrepancy, and this is why she would put an earth symbol (pentacle) with a character (Slytherin) she attributes as water and the same with Water/Cup with Hufflepuff/Earth? I think it's a possibility. She's given us mixed messages before.

In any case, there's some deeply entrenched non-Potterverse precedence for switching the correspondences of Air and Fire, and Earth and Water.

My information comes from personal correspondence (the writing/speaking kind) and also various websites including http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/EYSL-no-tables.html I find interesting then, this particular quote

Greek seasons: The Greeks originally had three seasons, then four, and later seven. Based on dates and agricultural activities, I have decided that the Greek Ear (Spring) corresponds to the first two Roman seasons and to the first two lifestages, though this is not certain. By looking at their etymology we can understand the meaning of the Greek seasons (LSJ s.vv. hora and the names of the seasons):

hora being where we get our word hour (horcrux anyone???). Seven seasons, seven horcruxes. I know the season thing has been brought up elsewhere, but I don't think it's been associated with the elements... interesting, anyway.

Anyway, great article.

[Chillin]

I am new and just getting through the editorials. I just wanted to mention that in SS/PS when Harry first visits Ollivanders, he observes a wand in the front window covered in dust on a faded purple pillow. Is it possible that this wand is either Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's? I just know that there is not much mentioned in the books that does not have significance elsewhere and I simply do not believe that this wand is put in the book for "eye candy". Also, some may think that a wand of such significance would be kept more securely, however, maybe it is the idea that something out in the open is more secure than something locked in a vault - meaning someone may not expect it to be out in the open, so put it there. May also explain Ollivander's disappearance in HBP.

[AbyBlutjager]

Chillin, that's a great point!! It does give a perfect reason for either Ollivander to hide or be taken hostage. I had originally thought his disappearance had something to do with Harry's and Voldemort's brother wands, but this is much better.

[AirLion]

Okay.... Now, after reading this editorial, I immediately believed the Ravenclaw's wand theory. I don't believe Voldemort managed to get his hands on the sword, as it was in the Sorting Hat and only a true Gryffindor could get it out, which Voldemort certainly isn't. Although, I was thinking about who Ravenclaw's heirs would be, but I couldn't find any obvious candidates. Does anyone else have a suggestion?

[AbyBlutjager]

With that amazing memory of his, Ollivander might be Ravenclaw's heir...a direct descendent.

[Rictasempra]

From Lady Lupin's Spinners End #3

Final Tarot Musings

The Seventh Card - The Chariot

Since there are seven books in the series, and seven is the number of completion, perhaps the seventh card in the Major Arcana might give us some clues as to what to expect in the next book. I am not suggesting that the entire series is based on the Tarot deck or that each book has a specific, numeric corollary, but I do find the definition for The Chariot card interesting and hopeful.

The Chariot represents the understanding and harmonizing of opposing forces to bring about an end to strife and difficulty. (Four Hogwarts Houses? Harry and Voldemort?) Personal effort and perseverance are keys to creating triumphant resolution to problems. (Quest? Horcruxes? The final battle?) Interestingly, it also can represent the integration of body and soul. (Voldemort and his Horcruxes? Scary thought...)

Though I don't see Harry and Voldemort becoming mates (horror!), I do think that much of what Harry saw in Dumbledore's pensieve in HBP created a spark of understanding in him about who Tom Riddle was, what he held dear, and how Lord Voldemort came to be. His ability to connect with Tom's feelings and experiences in himself, as uncomfortable as it was for him, may go a long ways towards vanquishing the Dark Lord. I hope that the positive and triumphant implications of The Chariot card bode well for Harry's success, survival and well-earned happiness.

Notice the Snitch in the Middle... Need I say more? Actually... I will say more. There is no way JK Rowling could have just thought of the Snitch by herself, so I am sure she got the idea from this chariot, which in turn got the "Winged Sphere" from alchemy- something I am sure most of you know JK relies heavily on to write her books. I take this as a good sign meaning that we could make excellent inferences on the HP7 by looking at tarots.

[Krinkelmort]

Originally Posted by AbyBlutjager

With that amazing memory of his, Ollivander might be Ravenclaw's heir...a direct descendent.

Well when I look book at book 1, it says that Ollivander's is 'maker of fine wands since 382 before Christ'. So Ollivander's shop existed even before Rowena Ravenclaw was born. I don't think the Ollivander we met is the same Ollivander that started it, but I think it was given from father to son or something like that.

If that's true then there was no Rowena Ravenclaw in his family.

Anyway; great editorial! I immediatley believed that the remaining horcrux is Rowena Ravenclaw's wand and that it had something to do with Ollivander's disappearance.
Maybe Ollivander managed to get his hands on the horcrux after the fall of Lord Voldemort (without knowing that it is a horcrux) and kept it in his shop. And Voldemort simply took it back from Ollivander, and of course immediatly took Ollivander with him to erase the evidence.

Yes that chariot card with that snitch-like object in the middle can't be coincidence! I think the houses will unite in the final battle and will eventually be a big role in Lord Voldemort's defeat.

Couldn't that snitch point out to your editorial called: 'seeking the golden snitch'? Couldn't it be another clue to the meaning that lies beyond the surface?

[Dawa Lhamo]

Originally Posted by Krinkelmort

Well when I look book at book 1, it says that Ollivander's is 'maker of fine wands since 382 before Christ'. So Ollivander's shop existed even before Rowena Ravenclaw was born. I don't think the Ollivander we met is the same Ollivander that started it, but I think it was given from father to son or something like that.

If that's true then there was no Rowena Ravenclaw in his family.

Not exactly. What if Rowena's hypothetical daughter (or granddaughter or any direct female descendant) married into the Ollivanders? Then it would be fine either way. Ollivander could be a direct descendant of Ravenclaw AND the original Ollivander. Heck, his own mother might have been the Ravenclaw descendant, and by marrying his father, an Ollivander, he got the lineage. It can be inferred that the Ollivander family has been around that whole time (since 832 BC), therefore it existed at the time of Ravenclaw. It's certainly possible. ^_^

[AbyBlutjager]

Originally Posted by Rictasempra

Notice the Snitch in the Middle... Need I say more? Actually... I will say more. There is no way JK Rowling could have just thought of the Snitch by herself, so I am sure she got the idea from this chariot, which in turn got the "Winged Sphere" from alchemy- something I am sure most of you know JK relies heavily on to write her books. I take this as a good sign meaning that we could make excellent inferences on the HP7 by looking at tarots.

The "snitch" here in the chariot card is actually an ancient Egyptian symbol.

Winged Solar Disk

This is a form that the god Horus Behudety (Horus of Edfu) takes in his battles with Seth. The god Thoth used his magic to turn Horus into a sun-disk with splendid outstretched wings. The goddesses Nekhbet and Uazet in the form of uraeus snakes joined him at his side.

Comparing Egyptian myth with the Potterverse, Horus Behudety (actually, any version of Horus) is Harry, Thoth is Albus Dumbledore, and Seth (or Set) is Voldemort... There is another Horus, the brother of Osiris, and he goes blind with the cycles of the moon. The various Horuses in Egyptian myth are often confused or combined. Horus fights Seth because Seth killed Osiris. Isis survived. Compare this to the Potterverse, in which Voldemort killed James Potter, Lily was offered life but chose death, and Harry avenges their deaths.

Regardless of whether Horus is referred to as the brother of Osiris or as his son, he's always fighting Seth, who is also a brother to Osiris.... Check out http://hometown.aol.com/egyptart/hormyth.html for the story of Horus vs. Seth. Notice that some versions of the story say that Seth hadn't been killed, but that he turned into a giant snake. All of his followers take the shape of water-dwelling creatures, like hippos and crocodiles....This is the idea that the battle between light and dark, or good and evil, is neverending. However, it's generally thought that good would eventually overcome evil, and that the innocent would once again walk the earth....

Also check out http://hometown.aol.com/egyptart/osi.html for the common version where Horus is Osiris's son and battles Seth to avenge his father's death.

Note, if you check out the page about Seth/Set, notice his eyes are red.

[Enrique]

Excellent editorials!!!! Keep on writing.

Now, let my say something more about the golden snitch. If someone has written it before, I apologize, but I'm a newby in the "Horcruxes' theories field".
When I read, in Horcruxes and the tarot, that Ravenclaw's horcrux could be something flying in the air, I immediately thought about one of the most famous flying device in Wizarding World: the golden snitch. Not a generic one, but the 'first one', the one invented by Bowman Wright. According to QA-4, he was a "skilled metal-charmer". Maybe he was so skilled to be Rowena Ravenclaw's decendant. And now, some flights of imagination: Wright was from Godric's Hollow --> James and Lily hid themselves in Godric's Hollow ---> James used to play with a golden snitch in his Hogwarts years. (We know this from Snape's worst memory and from Lupin question in OotP-29: 'Was he playng with the snitch?'). But was that snitch just a common one? How did it came in James' possession? Could it be a family inheritance, coming from ages ago, from Bowman Wrigth himself? If so, could Tom Riddle consider it an object worthy of hosting a piece of his own soul? And if so, did he manage to perform the horcrux curse on James' snitch? I know, I know, to many 'if' and 'maybe'.

But if that snitch is a horcrux, then Harry has to "seek the Golden Snitch" almost literally.
And who could do it better than Griffindor's seeker?