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Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry



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  #1  
Old January 26th, 2006, 6:47 pm
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Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Discussion for Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry by Lady Lupin.

(Old discussion of this article can be found HERE.)


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Old January 26th, 2006, 7:12 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Hooray LadyLupin! Well done on recieving your own column! When's the next entry due?


Has anyone found any new clues for Aberforth?


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Old February 2nd, 2006, 3:05 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

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Originally Posted by sholeigh
Has anyone found any new clues for Aberforth?
Not yet! But I haven't given up!


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Old February 2nd, 2006, 8:42 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

that was very interesting...i like reading your editorials

i liked the idea about dumbledore's family being slaughtered by Grindelwald(or he forced Dumbledore to make it)...i started to look for some clues about Aberforth and him being 'a bit odd'....i wonder what he was doing with the goats?!?


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Old February 3rd, 2006, 11:59 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Quote:
Originally Posted by sholeigh
Has anyone found any new clues for Aberforth?
Aberforth remains quite the engima even after going back through all the books. However, in my reread of book 6 I did see something that struck me that I had really not considered before. Toward the end of the book when Harry and Dumbledore go by the Hogs Head en route to the Cave, the sign on the Hogs Head creaks slightly, but there is NO wind. I do not know what to make of this if anything, however it is quite possible that it is a clue. The wording is such as could be found in a mystery novel. I need to go back and look at descriptions of Hogs Head signs and compare all the times we see the Hogs Head. Good grief, now I even think I sound ridiculous with this Harry Potter thing!


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Old February 3rd, 2006, 6:37 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

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Posted by DDFAN:
Aberforth remains quite the engima even after going back through all the books. However, in my reread of book 6 I did see something that struck me that I had really not considered before. Toward the end of the book when Harry and Dumbledore go by the Hogs Head en route to the Cave, the sign on the Hogs Head creaks slightly, but there is NO wind. I do not know what to make of this if anything, however it is quite possible that it is a clue. The wording is such as could be found in a mystery novel. I need to go back and look at descriptions of Hogs Head signs and compare all the times we see the Hogs Head. Good grief, now I even think I sound ridiculous with this Harry Potter thing!
LoL! I'm sure there are many ridiculously obsessive fans who could immediately give you a list of all the times things have creaked in the series, and explain how this shows that the Death Eaters are communicating by squeak.

On the other hand, I must dash and read that passage and compile my own list... Thanks for the new lead.


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Old February 4th, 2006, 2:05 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Quote:
Originally Posted by sholeigh
LoL! I'm sure there are many ridiculously obsessive fans who could immediately give you a list of all the times things have creaked in the series, and explain how this shows that the Death Eaters are communicating by squeak.

On the other hand, I must dash and read that passage and compile my own list... Thanks for the new lead.
Obsessive? Why, whatever do you mean?? Just because my 8yo son felt the need to remind me that the books aren't real.... just in case.

On that note, I scoured through POA and OOTP and found a description of the sign in OOTP, from when they meet to form the DA. The sign is described in some detail. Here it creaks, but wind is present. However, now we can't say if it truly creaked because of the wind or if it was whatever makes it creak in HBP. To be honest, I don't think anything from the Seer Overheard on isn't precisely worded. I think the timing is all going to be so important , and there are so many details that need filling in, that every sentence and every word was more carefully chosen even than usual. We could say it is a red herring, but as there is no explanation for the creaking, and the Hog's Head is connected with our mysterious friend Aberforth, and it is the final bizarre events of HBP, I'm not buying it.

But I still don't know what to make of Aberforth, except that I am sure he is important, perhaps even pivotal, and I don't believe he is what has been described to us so far. One way or the other, he is a front for something.

And as for Albus not knowing whether or not his brother can read... honestly... what a smart alec, having fun at our expense! I love his sense of humor anyway, though!


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Old February 5th, 2006, 9:22 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

OK, I've been back through the references to the Hog's Head, and it seems that every time we see the pub the sign is always described, and it is always creaking. This even includes the brief glimpse Harry has of the pub from the Knight Bus in OotP. The bus races past and Harry sees the sign for a split second, but it is still described as creaking in the winter wind. Surely there's no way that Harry could have heard the sign from on board the Knight Bus? As I read through the other mentions of the sign, I was quite amazed. I think there's something in this.

So why would the sign creak, even when there's no wind? I would say that even on the hottest, stillest summer evening there would still be thermals rising from the ground that could make the sign shift slightly. But a more magical thought occured to me. What if, as Harry and Dumbledore come round the corner and see the pub, someone has just disapparated from beneath the sign? Disapparating frequently causes a popping sound. It's my opinion that the volume of the sound is connected to the skill of the apparator. Dumbledore apparates silently during his Ministry duel with Voldemort, but when Mundungus disapparates from Privet Drive in OotP the noise is so loud the Muggles think a car has backfired. The odd thing about this is that Harry recognises the sound as being the same as when Dobby disappears, and you'd think Dobby would be an expert apparator. But still, the description served the story at that time.

Anyway, my whole point is that if someone disapparated from under the Hog's Head sign, they did so silently and so should be a skilled wizard. Also they were probably under an Invisibility Cloak. I think there are many people who it could have been: a) someone from the Ministry spying on the Hog's Head and/or Dumbledore; b) someone from the Order posted there on Dumbledore's orders to keep an eye on the Hog's Head or to watch out for Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts; c) one of the Death Eaters or Malfoy's cronies watching out for Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts; d) Aberforth, who was waiting for Dumbledore to arrive at the pub, having been tipped off by Dumbledore in the five minutes that Dumbledore sent Harry off to fetch his Cloak.

EDIT: Sorry, what I meant to add above was that the popping noise suggests that as the person disappears the air rushes in to fill the space they have just vacated, creating the sharp sound. This rush of air is what I think has made the sign move on that still summer night in HBP.

Well, I think that's a good start. Any thoughts?


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Old February 5th, 2006, 1:32 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Okay -- you've done my work for me! I have yet to make it to look up the signs. But it seems to me that something described everytime we see it is significant and it is especially significant that the sign is creaking when there is NO WIND. So, what is going on with the sign? It could be someone invisible as you have noted. It could also involve time travel such as we see in POA. Or perhaps there is some underground secret passage under all that filth in the Bar that looks as though it is centuries old! Perhaps the opening or closing of a passage somewhere is somehow linked to the creaking sign? In terms of WHO the invisible person would be. I tend to think that it is somehow related to what Dumbledore is doing in the sense that I think timing is very important. It could have something to do with someone saying, "OK" they are here at the Hogs Head about to go for the cave, time for part X to be set in motion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sholeigh
The odd thing about this is that Harry recognises the sound as being the same as when Dobby disappears, and you'd think Dobby would be an expert apparator. But still, the description served the story at that time.
Since you cannot apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts grounds, I think that what Dobby is doing is something different from apparation.


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Old February 5th, 2006, 9:09 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Quote:
Originally Posted by sholeigh
OK, I've been back through the references to the Hog's Head, and it seems that every time we see the pub the sign is always described, and it is always creaking. This even includes the brief glimpse Harry has of the pub from the Knight Bus in OotP. The bus races past and Harry sees the sign for a split second, but it is still described as creaking in the winter wind. Surely there's no way that Harry could have heard the sign from on board the Knight Bus? As I read through the other mentions of the sign, I was quite amazed. I think there's something in this.
<gasp> I missed the bit with the Knight bus!! That is bizarre that Harry would hear it in the bus, is it not? Nice find! Yes, there is something going on here. I like the "invisible entity" idea, and I like your explanation as to the sound of apparition (and other forms of coming and going such as with Dobby). I had noticed the difference in sound, and wondered if what we heard on Privet Drive that night was actually Mundungus, or something else, because it was so loud. Your theory would explain that. The idea of a sudden vacuum creating a rush of air movement makes complete sense. I also like the mention DDFAN made of tunnels.

The Inn was the HQ of the Goblin Rebellion of 1600-something or other (probably 1642-ish to coincide with the English Civil War, Cromwell and all that?), and given the Goblins' ability for digging tunnels and hiding things underground a la Gringotts and the need for secrecy required in such a rebellion, I am betting that there are some pretty interesting tunnels underneath the Hog's Head. So, I wonder who owned the Inn back then? Interesting that it is associated with a group of beings wanting equitable and fair treatment, and now seemingly run by a Dumbledore....but I digress.

My point is if there is a tunnel underneath that sign, any movement or pressure changes within could cause the movement above. If that is the case, there has been a great deal of unseen movement going on there for quite some time.

What gives with the sign? The Aberforth situation is weird and puzzling enough; now we have the sign business. My suspicion meter is well into the red zone but my answer meter reading is wildly tossing to and fro as though it were crossing the Bermuda Triangle. I am missing something...


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Old February 6th, 2006, 12:27 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

In regard to the name Grindlewald and its meaning, the Grendle was a flesh-eating monster in the Beowulf epic. (Was a science major but needed a survey lit course and chose the European Epic.) So in seeing Grindlewald I mistook it for Grendlewald. I wonder if JKR intended us to make the association. Grendlewald is a creepy name!

LOve to read these editorials. Lady Lupin's are fine. I could come up with intelligent ideas in class discussion but never could develope a smooth essay.


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Old February 6th, 2006, 7:33 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Quote:
Posted by DDFAN:
Okay -- you've done my work for me! I have yet to make it to look up the signs. But it seems to me that something described everytime we see it is significant and it is especially significant that the sign is creaking when there is NO WIND. So, what is going on with the sign? It could be someone invisible as you have noted. It could also involve time travel such as we see in POA. Or perhaps there is some underground secret passage under all that filth in the Bar that looks as though it is centuries old! Perhaps the opening or closing of a passage somewhere is somehow linked to the creaking sign? In terms of WHO the invisible person would be. I tend to think that it is somehow related to what Dumbledore is doing in the sense that I think timing is very important. It could have something to do with someone saying, "OK" they are here at the Hogs Head about to go for the cave, time for part X to be set in motion.
Sorry if I interrupted your train of thought I like the idea of a secret passage to the Hog's Head, presumably from one of the passages in Hogwarts that the trio have never explored. I would very much like to know more about the other rooms that lead off the Headmaster's office. I read that for the GoF movie they built in a suite of rooms behind the Headmaster's desk, even though they are never seen in the film. This immediately got me thinking about possible private passageways that the Headmaster may have access to. It is usual in fantasy tales for old castles to be riddled with passages inside the walls.

I'm afraid I don't see the connection of time travel to the Hog's Head. Please could you tell me more?

Quote:
Posted by DDFAN:
Since you cannot apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts grounds, I think that what Dobby is doing is something different from apparation.
That is possible. But also, we are told that most wizard dwellings have anti-apparition jinxes placed on them, but all House Elves would be expected to jump around the house silently without their masters noticing. I suspect that House Elves may be exempt from the usual rules of magic.

Quote:
Posted by hpmom:
<gasp> I missed the bit with the Knight bus!! That is bizarre that Harry would hear it in the bus, is it not? Nice find! Yes, there is something going on here. I like the "invisible entity" idea, and I like your explanation as to the sound of apparition (and other forms of coming and going such as with Dobby). I had noticed the difference in sound, and wondered if what we heard on Privet Drive that night was actually Mundungus, or something else, because it was so loud. Your theory would explain that. The idea of a sudden vacuum creating a rush of air movement makes complete sense. I also like the mention DDFAN made of tunnels.

The Inn was the HQ of the Goblin Rebellion of 1600-something or other (probably 1642-ish to coincide with the English Civil War, Cromwell and all that?), and given the Goblins' ability for digging tunnels and hiding things underground a la Gringotts and the need for secrecy required in such a rebellion, I am betting that there are some pretty interesting tunnels underneath the Hog's Head. So, I wonder who owned the Inn back then? Interesting that it is associated with a group of beings wanting equitable and fair treatment, and now seemingly run by a Dumbledore....but I digress.

My point is if there is a tunnel underneath that sign, any movement or pressure changes within could cause the movement above. If that is the case, there has been a great deal of unseen movement going on there for quite some time.

What gives with the sign? The Aberforth situation is weird and puzzling enough; now we have the sign business. My suspicion meter is well into the red zone but my answer meter reading is wildly tossing to and fro as though it were crossing the Bermuda Triangle. I am missing something...
The tunnels are definately a good point, and I love the idea of goblin involvement. Wasn't Dumbledore concerned that the goblins would turn to Voldemort's side during the war, or have I got that wrong? But we don't hear anything about this in OotP or HBP. Perhaps underground dealings with the goblins have been going on for a while.

I think I need to go away and think


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Old February 7th, 2006, 3:32 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Sholeigh

wasn't it arthur weasley who asked bill about whether goblins would side with the order, in OotP (?) and he said they were keeping pretty quiet about whose side they would take because of the wizard cover up of ludo's cheating them? interesting thought about underground passages, another thing I had not considered at all.


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Old February 7th, 2006, 11:33 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

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Posted by plainlypotter:
wasn't it arthur weasley who asked bill about whether goblins would side with the order, in OotP (?) and he said they were keeping pretty quiet about whose side they would take because of the wizard cover up of ludo's cheating them? interesting thought about underground passages, another thing I had not considered at all.
Thanks for the reference. I'll go check it out


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Old February 8th, 2006, 3:56 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

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Originally Posted by plainlypotter
wasn't it arthur weasley who asked bill about whether goblins would side with the order, in OotP (?) and he said they were keeping pretty quiet about whose side they would take because of the wizard cover up of ludo's cheating them?
Ah yes! This is important. I think Bill has been busy working on getting Goblin cooperation, but for what, exactly?

Sholeigh:


If I may try my hand at answering the time travel question, if someone time travels it would be another way for them to disappear suddenly, without disapparating. In general, I think some time travel could be involved in the final events of HBP. It might not be, but it would be one way to explain the oddity of some of the things that happen.

OK- I just thought of a Very Weird time travel idea. I am not saying this happened, but I was just thinking and the logistics of this popped into my head. How to make Dumbledore's Army, or rather an army of Dumbledores.

You go back in time a hour, and there are two of you present in that tme, the future you and the present you. What if you repeatedly go back to that same time from various points in the future? Could you theoretically have a whole bunch of "you" at one point in time, from all over time? Could Dumbledore do this to create an army of Dumbledores? I have enough trouble keeping track of present me on a straight timeline!


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Old February 8th, 2006, 4:17 am
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

re: Time Travel

All the Time Turners were destroyed during that fight in the Ministry, weren't they? So isn't time travel impossible now?

As for the creaking sign... PLEASE pardon me for being so pedestrian, but isn't it possible that it has simply been enchanted to always creak a little bit, just because wizards and witches tend to find that sort of spooky stuff kinda cool (especially after they've had a few drinks)?


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Old February 8th, 2006, 4:52 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Do you really think that Dumbledore needs or uses Ministry Time Turners to travel in time?

I don't see any indication that the sign has simply been enchanted for no reason. The description and wording of the text may be important as a clue to what is occurring. Or the sign may simply be unimportant. I tend to think it is important given the mystery surrounding Aberforth and the Hogs Head. Many things are possible, what is likely or probable is a different matter.

In regard to my time travel comment, if there is time travel going on, somebody could be near the sign, moving the sign, around, the sign, etc., and causing the effect. The closest thing I can think of to describe what I mean is from the movie POA when the 1st iteration Hermione looks back into the trees toward the "time travel" Harry and Hermione as though she senses something is there.


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Old February 8th, 2006, 6:07 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

I see your point about Dumbledore probably being wise and magical enough to not need a Time Turner... nonetheless, as of yet we haven't been introduced to any other method of time-travel. Also, if he COULD travel in time, why did he need the Pensieve [and Harry's intervention] to find out what Slughorn told Tom Riddle about Horcruxes? He could simply have gone back there, LITERALLY as a "fly on the wall" [eat your heart out, Rita Skeeter!] and heard/seen for himself.


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Old February 8th, 2006, 8:06 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Quote:
Posted by hpmom:
If I may try my hand at answering the time travel question, if someone time travels it would be another way for them to disappear suddenly, without disapparating. In general, I think some time travel could be involved in the final events of HBP. It might not be, but it would be one way to explain the oddity of some of the things that happen.

OK- I just thought of a Very Weird time travel idea. I am not saying this happened, but I was just thinking and the logistics of this popped into my head. How to make Dumbledore's Army, or rather an army of Dumbledores.

You go back in time a hour, and there are two of you present in that tme, the future you and the present you. What if you repeatedly go back to that same time from various points in the future? Could you theoretically have a whole bunch of "you" at one point in time, from all over time? Could Dumbledore do this to create an army of Dumbledores? I have enough trouble keeping track of present me on a straight timeline!
Great idea. I see how the time travel thing could make someone seem to disappear, like disapparating. The thing about time travel though is that the person would move in time, but not in space, so time travel wouldn't have made any difference to Dumbledore when he fell off the Tower. Not unless there was once an occasion when a giant crash mat was positioned under the Tower . I don't know if that was your thought or not, I just wanted to point it out.

I love the idea of an Army of Dumbledores! It would take a great deal of planning and will power to pull off mutiple time leaps like that. Like Hermione says, if someone met their past or future self, they could end up killing their other self, thinking they are going mad. There is also the thing about two identical souls existing in the same time frame, but JKR didn't include the effects of this in PoA, so perhaps she has decided that in her world, there would be no side effects to time travel. If anyone could do it, Dumbledore could.

Quote:
Posted by ParselFace:
All the Time Turners were destroyed during that fight in the Ministry, weren't they? So isn't time travel impossible now?
True, all the Ministry time turners were destroyed, but who is to say that Dumbledore doesn't have his own time machine, built into his special watch maybe?

Quote:
Posted by DDFAN:
In regard to my time travel comment, if there is time travel going on, somebody could be near the sign, moving the sign, around, the sign, etc., and causing the effect. The closest thing I can think of to describe what I mean is from the movie POA when the 1st iteration Hermione looks back into the trees toward the "time travel" Harry and Hermione as though she senses something is there.
Like you say, the event with Hermione sensing her other self only occurred in the film version, and it's the same with the scene where Hermione throws a fossil at Harry to make them leave Hagrid's hut. As far as I remember, there was almost no interaction between the different versions of Harry and Hermione in the PoA book, and also Ron did not see them disappear from the hospital wing, as he does in the film. Thinking about that has made me realise how much of my knowledge of Wizarding time travel is based on the movie version. I think it's time I re-read the early books again


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Old February 10th, 2006, 2:00 pm
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Re: Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

One of the interesting things to take note of when you reread POA is Dumbledore's relationship to events in time. When the second iteration Harry and Hermione go back to save the "two innocent lives," the first iteration Dumbledore who they observe going to Hagrid's cabin is very much aware that there is a future Harry and Hermione out there. He buys them the needed time to retrieve Buckbeak and sends Fudge and company off to search the skies. He is amused, not surprised by events. This is blatantly apparent in the movie. Although more subtle in the book, it is still nevertheless present. This suggests to me that Dumbledore has quite a "unique" time perspective.



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