Spinner's End #11 - Hunting For Horcruxes

[navygreen]

Discussion for Spinner's End #11 - Hunting For Horcruxes by Lady Lupin.

(Old discussion of this article can be found HERE.)

[oiler3535]

very good editorial. The length of the rest of replies and other forums means I haven't read them all(so this could have been said before), but I wanted to propose Griffindor's item as a Horcrux could be the sorting hat. If i'm remembering correctly one of its songs said it once belonged to Griffindor. This means the sword is NOT the only known G relic that could be used. I don't know how voldemort could have gotten to it, but it is a possibility.

[SmilesY2KBug]

I really liked this editorial. I find it really interesting that there wasn't any mention of any surviving Ravenclaw artifacts. Dumbledore never states if there has been any record of this. Ravenclaw is the only founder where we don't know if anything has survived.

I don't believe that we are going to finish Book Seven without loss, I don't think Harry has to die in order for the ending of the story to work. We have come too far with him, and we need the satisfaction of his victory and his reward.

I agree with this. Also, almost all of fantasy follow the classical epic structure. (In fact there is only one fantasy series I can think of that deviates from this which is of course the Chronicles of Narnia but that series is an allegory so that makes sense.) 1. The hero must have a reason to leave home and go on a journey. 2. The journey must provide a series of obstacles that the hero has to overcome. 3. The hero must return home and provide one last service to society before they leave again and/or die.

[jpgygax]

By jove, I think you're right about Harry's blood. I just remembered that strange remark Dumbledore made to Harry in the cave: "But your blood is worth more than mine." (p.523, English Hardcover) I couldn't figure out what it meant - I think you did.

Excellent investigations Lady Lupin , keep it up!

[thurmtim]

A new thought occured to me after reading your escellent series of editorials.. we may have overlooked an important tool in Harry's Horcrux Hunt (hereafter abbreviated as HHH).

Harry's scar provides a connection to Voldemort and the faile Avada Kedavra has left Harry with some of Voldemort's powers. Does this connection to VOldemort extend to his Horcruxes? Would a technique akin to Legilmency, properly focused, allow Harry to detect and identify a Horcrux of Voldemort's, as it contains a shard of his soul? Will his scar, in a fashion akin to his "Spidey Sense" of Voldemort, aid him in HHH.

Also, as the creator of both the Horcruxes and their attendant protections, one can expect Voldemort to be able to access the Horcruxes when necessary WITHOUT the risk another wizard would face. In the Inferi cave, for instance, would Voldemort need to bring a stooge to drink the potion if he wanted the locket, or would he be able to simply retrieve it himself without either having to drink the potion or arousing the Inferi. Remember, Dumbledore suffered great injury destroying the ring , while Harry suffered no injury directly from destroying the diary with the basilisk's tooth. Was the diary otherwisse unprotected, or did Harry acquire an inadvertent immunity from Voldemort due to the failed Avada Kedavra? It may still require a magical prop of some sort to destroy a Horcrux (like the basilisk's tooth, but Harry may be uniquely able to wield such an item without risk of injury from the other attendant protections. Of course, if this were true, then Dumbledore may not need to have suffered from the potion immersing the ring, if they had known Harry would have been immune to it's effects.

I am VERY interested in the thoughts of the Hogwarts Amateur Slething Community (HASC) on these nettling questions! Any comments or thoughts, anyone?

[raBBit]

I have a suspicion that someone is being hidden by the Order. Dumbledore drops this juicy clue on the Tower, shortly before his death, when he promises Draco that he can hide the Malfoys more completely than Draco can possibly imagine - an odd turn of phrase... as if he has done it before. It could be Emmeline or Fortescue, or my old favorite, Caradoc Dearborn, but I do believe someone is being hidden. My bet is Ollivander, and I believe it may have to do with Ravenclaw's Wand.

very good pont...thats what i have been thinking for a long time. i think emmeline was a fake death which helped Snape to look like he is on Voldy's side(since he takes credits for Emmeline's death) and also a protection of a very important member anda great witch...though Ollivander can be a good guess

[rashmee_rathi]

It was mentioned that there was something to do with fire for the Gryffindor Horcrux. Could it be Pheniox Fire? Or related to Fawes?

[Merlin81]

Great Editorial by Lady Lupin. I hope everyone reads this post.

Originally Posted by DDFAN

With regard to RAB being Regulus Black, there is no evidence anywhere to indicate that Regulus Black is an extremely powerful wizard -- powerful enough to get through Voldemort's protection. The only current wizard so far who can do this is Albus Dumbledore and I believe that Dumbledore in some way shape or form is part of RAB. Remember, that for even so powerful a wizard as Dumbledore, one alone could not have done it. I would certainly buy into the suggestion that Voldemort is meant to believe that RAB is Regulus Black, that the initials are meant to stand for Regulus Black, but I think the reality of who RAB truly is will be different. In other words, RAB is a fake. Harry is the only other who has destroyed a horcrux, and with help from Dumbledore and Fawkes.

I believe that the real locket horcrux has already been destroyed. Of course, for Harry, this is not relevant because even if I am correct Harry does not KNOW that to be the case and will have to find out whether it has or has not been destroyed.

I disagree here, I believe the Locket to be exactly the locket found in Grimmauld place, I believe I have discovered more evidence of this during my re-read of OotP post HBP but first I'll re-cap on what we already know.

OotP UK Edition Page 108. - a heavy locket that none of them could open

HBP UK Edition Page 569 - To the Dark Lord........R.A.B.

I believe it is Regulas Black is R.A.B., on OotP UK page 104 we are told his Uncle's name is Alphard, coincidence? We are also given information regarding Sirius Grandfather who received an Order of Merlin, First Class. Which to me suggests that there has been good wizards willing to do what is right in the House of Black in the past, although Sirius puts it down to money. As to whether Regulas was a great wizard, Dumbledore tells us that Slughorn handpicks favourites and had an uncanny knack of always choosing those who would go on to become outstanding in there various fields. Slughorn earlier says;

The whole Black family had been in my house, but Sirius ended up in Gryffindor! Shame - he was a talented boy. I got his brother but I'd of liked the set.

I am assuming Regulas was one of these hand-picked favourites, just a thought!


Now I skip to something I discovered last night and I have not noticed this in any post or editorial as yet, at the end of the chapter, The Secret Riddle, Dumbledore states;

- the young Tom Riddle liked to collect trophies. You saw the box of stolen articles he had hidden in his room. These were souvenirs of particularly unpleasent bits of magic. Bear in mind this magpie-like tendency, for this, particularly, will be important later.

Now skip back to OotP UK Page 445, when Hermione is giving Kreacher a present the go to his room under the boiler. When Harry looked inside he saw

Here and there among the material were stale bread crusts and mouldy old bits of cheese. In a far corner glinted small objects and coins that Harry guessed Kreacher had saved, magpie-like, from Sirius's purge of the house,

The word magpie-like immediately stuck out in my re-read. I think this is an intentional clue and I believe that the Locket is in Kreachers Den.

Has anyone any more thoughts on this?

[lafemmenissa]

Well, the locket that the trio found IS Slytherin's locket, it just has to be, otherwise a very complicated storyline would ensue and Jo's spent too much time building up this locket stuff.
As far as R.A.B. I concur with the masses that it is Regulus. The way I see it, he had a change of heart after hanging with Voldy for a while and decided that the dark way just wasn't for him. Perhaps he found out about the Horcrux situation and was too freaked out about it... only Jo knows. He knew that he wasn't going to get out of it alive and decided to try to do what he could to bring snake-face down in order to somewhat redeem himself. I don't see Dumbledore being connected to this in any way. Why would he have taken Harry on such a perilous journey if he had already removed the original Horcrux?
It could very well be that the locket is in Kreacher's den, I wouldn't put it past him. However, I'm more concerned that Mundungus stole it along with the other items that Harry caught him selling to Aberforth. Hopefully, if this is the case, Aberforth bought the locket (already knowing what it was) and will turn it over to Harry. Worst case scenario; Mundungus stole the locket and sold it to someone less trustworthy. We know he's quite the scamp and his morals aren't the highest as long as he can make a few galleons... Then again, he's fiercely loyal to Dumbledore. Why can't the book be coming out tonight?

All the best,
la femme

Originally Posted by rashmee_rathi

It was mentioned that there was something to do with fire for the Gryffindor Horcrux. Could it be Pheniox Fire? Or related to Fawes?

Ooooh, I'm having a light bulb moment!!!

Currently in "The Eighth Horcrux" there is contemplation about Lord Meany turning his wand into a Horcrux... His wand has Fawkes' tail feather as its core... interesting, no?

All the best,
la femme

[Merlin81]

Originally Posted by lafemmenissa

Well, the locket that the trio found IS Slytherin's locket, it just has to be, otherwise a very complicated storyline would ensue and Jo's spent too much time building up this locket stuff.
As far as R.A.B. I concur with the masses that it is Regulus. The way I see it, he had a change of heart after hanging with Voldy for a while and decided that the dark way just wasn't for him. Perhaps he found out about the Horcrux situation and was too freaked out about it... only Jo knows. He knew that he wasn't going to get out of it alive and decided to try to do what he could to bring snake-face down in order to somewhat redeem himself. I don't see Dumbledore being connected to this in any way. Why would he have taken Harry on such a perilous journey if he had already removed the original Horcrux?
It could very well be that the locket is in Kreacher's den, I wouldn't put it past him. However, I'm more concerned that Mundungus stole it along with the other items that Harry caught him selling to Aberforth. Hopefully, if this is the case, Aberforth bought the locket (already knowing what it was) and will turn it over to Harry. Worst case scenario; Mundungus stole the locket and sold it to someone less trustworthy. We know he's quite the scamp and his morals aren't the highest as long as he can make a few galleons... Then again, he's fiercely loyal to Dumbledore. Why can't the book be coming out tonight?

Yes, I believe he had a change of heart aswell, I was thinking, would it have anything to do with the blurred out family names on the Black family tree, perhaps there were some Black Family relatives killed which was part of the reason Regulas changed his allegiance.

Valid point, I agree too that Dumbledore has nothing to do with R.A.B..

And lastly you may be right regarding Mundungus or Aberforth having the locket but I think it's too obvious, I think JKR has tried to deliberately throw us off track with this information. The whole Mundungus stealing incident was so heated. Whereas you really had to look for the Magpie-like clue.

[T_Brightwater]

A very thoughtful and well-written series of editorials, Lady Lupin!

Is it possible that Ravenclaw Horcrux is the tiara which Harry perched on the head of a stone bust in the Room of Requirement to mark the cabinet where he hid his Potions book? I think Mrs. Weasley's offer of a family tiara to Fleur for her wedding might be JKR's sneaky way of drawing our attention back to this item.

Originally Posted by oiler3535

but I wanted to propose Griffindor's item as a Horcrux could be the sorting hat.

JKR said in the "Rumors" section of her website that the Sorting Hat was not a Horcrux.

[shambo]

I was going thru the Eighth Horcrux article(quite interesting ,though).I am not sure whether the following has been discussed earlier...

Well, in HBP we find Fudge telling the Muggle Minister that Voldemort had personally killed AMelia Bones... Amelia BOnes' neice Susan belongs to Ravenclaw.In magical families related people usually belong to the same house.
Perhaps AMelia Bones too belonged to Ravenclaw.Moreover, in OOTP Tonks tells Harry that Madam Bones is "fair" (this happened on the day of Harry's hearing)...well Ravenclaws are "fair". Can it be (also)possible that the Ravenclaw Horcrux was in Mrs. BOnes possession? (She was visibly disturbed at the hearing at DUmbledore's insistence about VOldemort's return...her brother also worked for the order.) Can it also be that R.A.B is someone from the BOnes' family?( of course the "To The Dark Lord" salutation goes against that.)
Maybe Voldemort killed MAdam Bones to get the Ravenclaw horcrux.( I have left Gryffindor's relic out of this ,believing Dumbledore.)

COuld fawkes be DUmbledore's Horcrux? Well, for a start such an "ingenious" idea (indestructible horcrux) can come to Dumbledore quite easily (keeping in mind his genius about the Mirror of Erised.) Fawkes is specially loyal to Dumbledore (like the way DumbleDore tells Nagini is to Voldemort), which we've seen in CoS,GoF,OOTP,HBP.

Again keeping in mind Dumbledore's loathing towards Dark Magic, maybe Dumbledore got against it after experiencing bad stuffs rather than being prejudiced against it. After all. its the way Magic is used that makes it good or bad.

We must also remember that to create a Horcrux , a kill has to be made. Dumbledore did "destroy" the dark wizard Grindelwald(or whatever his name was opposite the chocolate card.

Again , in OOTP at the fight sequence in the Ministry of Magic Dumbledore tells VOldemort..."We both know TOm that there are other ways of destroying a man.)

(last but not the least maybe I don't want Dumbledore dead.)

[inkling7]

I think you'll find that Susan bones was in Hufflepuff not Ravenclaw so there goes that theory. Hufflepuff's are deemed more fair as Helga Hufflepuff said she'd teach any witch or wizard whether they were pureblood or not and they didn't have to be brainy, brave or ambitious etc. she wouldn't discriminate - how fair is that - no prejudice from Helga.

[shambo]

You're right !! (I had known earlier Susan Bones was from Hufflepuff , but got confused later.) Well, in that case how about the Hufflepuff cup, being grabbed by Voldemort from Amelia Bones(who probably belongs to Hufflepuff being "fair" enough for that house. )? "eighth horcrux" is nonetheless an important observation. This is bcoz Voldemort duzn't kill randomly.He only kills very important people , or people important to him.

In that case, how does Amelia Bones turn out to be so important to him?

Even to make a horcrux, Voldemort is said to have killed people important to him. So there goes the question again.

[inkling7]

Maybe Voldie killed her because she may have become the next Minister of Magic and he didn't want that. She was well-liked and therefore would have had lots of support from the wizarding community. She was also said to be a very powerful witch and he wouldn't want too much other competition now that Dumbledore has gone.

[plainlypotter]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Maybe Voldie killed her because she may have become the next Minister of Magic and he didn't want that. She was well-liked and therefore would have had lots of support from the wizarding community. She was also said to be a very powerful witch and he wouldn't want too much other competition now that Dumbledore has gone.

I should be remembered that Madam Bones was the one who sided with DD and Harry at Harry's trial - all the order members when talking at the kitchen table before harry went to the trial said she was faiar and that harry shouldn't worry. Basically she was willing to accept that it was at least possible that V was back as early as the beginning of OotP whereas the rest of the ministry was denying the possibliity. If she had become minister of magic, and I am unsure of exactly when Fudge was removed before or after her death, rather than scrimger, perhaps there would have been more done to find the horcruxes, but I am not sure what else the Ministry could have done especially if DD did not reveal the horcrux problem. I think the only difference would have been the placing in prison of stan shunpike ( excuse the spelling I don't have the book with me), and the fact that they wouldn't have tried to get harry to appear to agree with the ministry's policies or soothing the masses. Really what could the ministry do that they were not doing. They were "protecting" the school and they were apparently actively seeking out deatheaters and LV. Of course if scrimger is actually a deatheater in disguise then all bets are off and thatwould pose a whole set of other problems. But I think Jo is using scrimger to point a finger at governments/ officials and how they sometimes act in a way that is in their own interests rather than the interests of the people they govern.

[Gawp]

This was a brilliant essay! I find the idea about Ravenclaws wand flying around in air somewhere quite intriguing and quite fun. One of the points made in the essay, and one I agree with, is that finding a Horcrux is different than destroying one--this is, of course, what makes the plot all the more interesting. The unknown Horcrux, however, adds an element to the story I like, for it allows us to play detective. R. Ravenclaw's wand? Maybe. My money is on something in the room of requirement. I say this for two reasons. First, in HBP we see Voldy actually coming to Hogwarts in search of a job from Dumbledore--why? Dumbledore suspects that Voldy's presence is not what it seems. "Let us speak openly. Why have you come here tonight, surrounded by henchmen, to request a job we both know you do not want?," said Dumbledore. I believe that Voldy used this visit to Hogwarts to slip into the room of requirement and hide the unknown Horcrux. Second, we see the room of requirement described in some detail when Harry enters it to hide the HBP's potions book--why? There is something in there that was mentioned in the description JK gave us that is particularly interesting--the bloodstained axe. Could this be the axe used on Nearly Headless Nick? Just an idea, but it may qualify as something of Gryffindores. Afterall, Nearly Headless Nick is the Gryffindore ghost. Anyway, thats my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[Anime_HP_Fan]

This was a rather interesting article, but out of all of the possibilities you gave as to why Harry didn't get hurt by the Diary while Dumbledore was wounded by the ring, you left one possibly important viewpoint out. What if Voldemort wasn't the one who put the spell on the ring horcrux that caused Dumbledore's injury? In HBP, Dumbledore says something rather important about Voldemort's Horcruxes:

"And they could be anything?" said Harry. "They could be old tin cans or, I dunno, empty potion bottles..."

"You are thinking of Portkeys, Harry, Which must be ordinary objects, easy to overlook. But would Lord Voldemort use tin cans or old potion bottles to guard his own precious soul? You are forgetting what I have showed you. Lord Voldemort liked to collect trophies, and he preferred objects with a powerful magical history. His pride, his belief in his own superiority, his determination to carve for himself a startling place in magical history; these things suggest to me that voldemort would have chosen his Horcruxes with some care, favoring objects worthy of the honor." (pg. 504)

"I can only guess," said Dumbledore. "For the reasons I have already given, I believe that Lord Voldemort would prefer objects that, in themselves, have a certain grandeur. I have therefore trawled back through Voldemort's past to see if I can find evidence that such artifacts have disappeared around him." (pg. 505)

Since Voldemort would want Horcruxes with a powerful magical history, it would make sense to interpret that as items that are magical; objects that have been enchanted by the founders of Hogwarts would have been a great appeal to him. This being said, what if Slytherin was the person who enchanted that ring long ago? Slytherin was a twisted wizard and it would make sense that he would want to punish anyone who destroyed one of his most prized possessions. If so, then Slytherin would have put a terrible curse on his ring and also his locket. Hufflepuff doesn't strike me as a person who would place a curse on her own goblet, so even though the goblet is enchanted, I think that harry wouldn't have to deal with any curse from it. Also, the other founders wouldn't have put a curse like that on their possessions either. Plus, I may be reading into Voldemort's character too much, but I don't think he would put a curse on Nagini. He seems to be more fond of Nagini than any of his servants. She is like his best friend or child, and he keeps her by his side most of the time.

I don't think Voldemort would put curses on his Horcruxes because he is too arrogant. He sets up protection around his Horcruxes that he believes only he has the power to get through. Being overconfident in the external protection his Horcruxes have, I doubt that he would also give his Horcruxes internal protection. He didn't give his diary internal protection. He only protection his diary had was Lucius Malfoy, although Lucius proved not to be a very good protector.

[DanDumbledore]

Very interesting editorial. I think that you're onto something in that Harry is, in some way, "immune" to the defenses that the Horcruxes possess. That brings me to say that I think that the locket Horcrux has either: 1. Had its protection taken off, 2. That the locket isn't the Horcrux that we're all thinking it is (very highly on the unlikely scale), or 3. The protection and soul fragment have been taken off of the Horcrux.

We know that all of the Horcruxes that have been destroyed have had protection around them. The diary had the soul possessing Ginny, the ring was protected by a powerful curse, and the fake locket was protected by the terrible potion. In OotP, many people handle the locket, yet none of them suffer any damage. Is it because the locket was already stripped of its protection? What about the soul fragment? Sirius says that Regulus was killed on Voldemort's orders, and RAB says that they will soon be dead. I think that if the locket is the Slytherin locket and RAB is Regulus, that the locket's protection is what killed him, rather than one of Voldemort's other Death Eaters. RAB said that they will be dead long before Voldemort read his or her note, which suggests to me that RAB (or Regulus if that's who it is) wasn't killed by someone but something.


"Perhaps the power in the scar also explains Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue and some of the qualities in him that made the Sorting Hat consider him for Slytherin."

I have something I'd like to ask everyone. It is tied in with the question, "Is Harry (or his scar) a Horcrux?", but I'm not going to really go into it all that much. My question is if Harry was a Horcrux (meaning that he had part of Voldemort's soul in him), would the Sorting Hat have been able to detect it? If so, would it have tipped the scales further in favor of Harry being placed in Slytherin? My answer to both of those questions is "yes", but I'd like to see what everyone else has to say.

[MerlinsBeardd]

I like the theory of Harry having to work with his instincts. (the whole basalik, fang scenario). Throughout the series he has accomplished so much out of pure instinct, i would not be surprised if this was the case in destroying a horcrux. He discusses using instincts when he is giving his first DA lesson, and the importance of this is repeated many times throughout the series.

I have all these new thoughts floating around in my head now....