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Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note



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  #1  
Old February 24th, 2006, 7:52 pm
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Discussion of the editorial Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note by David Camillus


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  #2  
Old February 24th, 2006, 8:35 pm
square634  Undisclosed.gif square634 is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

GREAT editorial! I had been wondering how Regulus could have stolen the locket from the cave, especially when you need two people, one to drink the potion (I don't quite buy that he brought Kreacher along, although that is possible). After reading the letter, it certainly is ambiguous enough that it could mean that Regulus stole it; "I have discovered your secret" does not mean "I have discovered your secret." Also, it explains how he had time to get the locket to his house (I'm assuming it is the locket found in OoTP). Your scenario makes perfect sense, and also leaves a lot fewer questions than some of the other theories I've read. Well done!


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Old February 24th, 2006, 8:45 pm
HJP_DJR  Undisclosed.gif HJP_DJR is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

This is a really good editorial. Nearly everything made a lot of sense! The more i think about it the more i want to ask questions.


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  #4  
Old February 24th, 2006, 8:51 pm
waggawaggawer  Undisclosed.gif waggawaggawer is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Terrific, thought-provoking editorial. If Voldemort's servant was Bellatrix it does make even more sense that Regulus overheard something, intercepted the locket horcrux and substituted the fake one. Scenario C, for sure.

It also explains that comment Bellatrix makes in the Spinner's End chapter in HBP : he entrusted me with his most precious.....


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Old February 24th, 2006, 8:52 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

So who would Voldemort have trusted to put his Horcrux in the cave? Bella?


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  #6  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:03 pm
Idabomb333  Undisclosed.gif Idabomb333 is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Yeah, if I had to bet, I'd say it was Bella. Because of the comment and because she's the only one we know of with a connection to Regulus. I felt like that was a little too much speculation for the editorial, though. (I'm the author, by the way).


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Old February 24th, 2006, 9:05 pm
NorweganSnape  Female.gif NorweganSnape is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

I think that when the locket was moved by a trusted servant, Regulus followed them to the cave somehow (being curious) and followed the example of the Death Eater before him. He probably slipped away, unnoticed, after the boat was risen and returned at a later date to figure out what was up with the cave.

I wonder how he got past the potion though. He probably collected a sample and tested it later, and then came back. I don't know how he'd carry it out though, maybe he used a vial to picked it up and instead of drinking it, put it into a bag to trick the spell. I don't know, the specifications of the potion were'n't clear because they could obviously scoop it up if they could drink it...

"You will hear many of his Death Eaters claiming that they are in his confidence, that they alone are close to him, even understand him. They are deluded. Lord Voldemort has never had a friend..."
Maybe Voldy doesn't trust anyone because he was betrayed by someone...


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  #8  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:15 pm
darules  Undisclosed.gif darules is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

i think voldy would have had bella hide it . what's more it would come of no surprise to find out she killed regulus.


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  #9  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:19 pm
Huntingdon Huntingdon is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

A logical editorial and plausible theory. It certainly offers possible solutions that I haven't seen before - never occurred to me that it was substituted before the cave.

Well done.


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  #10  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:23 pm
aggiefan1206  Female.gif aggiefan1206 is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

This quote in the edititorial got me thinking.
"That leaves me with Scenario Z, that R.A.B. had someone else to fool. That gives much more credibility to Scenario C above. Voldemort must have sent someone else to put the locket Horcrux in the cave, and R.A.B. somehow intercepted the locket. He replaced it with the fake, but Voldemort's servant did not know it was a fake and placed it in the cave anyway. I find this scenario stunning, but I can see no other explanation."

"If R.A.B. intercepted the Horcrux before it reached the cave, then we get around the question of how he found the cave and how he got past the protections. This is a relief, because it was a stretch for me to believe that a young wizard, even one as talented as Regulus probably was, could figure out how to get past the protections when Dumbledore had to pause quite a while to figure them out. Was 18-year-old Regulus really that much more able than 16-year-old Harry? Could he figure out that the door needed blood, pull up the boat, solve the potion, and defeat the Inferi when Harry was completely reliant on Dumbledore for all of those things? "

About what time could this horcrux been placed in the cave? is the first question that I have here. Because if it was placed between the time of Harrys birth and his parents death it could have been that rat of man. Now who would not realize that something had been switched out right in front of their nose and not realize it. Voldemort would be intelligent enought to know if someone had taken the horcrux had he been with it. Wormtail however can be slightly careless sometimes. Maybe he left it lying around and RAB happened to come across it and pulled a little switch a roo this could be a definate possibility. I really like these theories as to how and why these certain things occur. I really like this editorial.


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  #11  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:31 pm
Beatriceblake  Female.gif Beatriceblake is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

I like this editorial. I always found it odd that if Dumbledore had so much difficulty with the defences that another wizard managed to pull off stealing the locket from the cave. Plus I can buy Bella being entrusted with a horcrux. She is clearly fanatically devoted to Voldie and is unlikely to betray him. Plus "I learned the dark arts from the Dark Lord himself" implies a special relationship.


Incidentally does anyone think the potion was some variant on the Draught of Living Death? I assume it was meant to result in slow death because it was green and because Dumbledore was obviously greatly weakened by it.


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  #12  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:36 pm
waggawaggawer  Undisclosed.gif waggawaggawer is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

I like the idea of Wormtail having been involved rather than Bellatrix, though. It would explain why a woman would not notice the switch of lockets. It is supposed to be a more likely feminine characteristic to notice jewellery design.

However, Bellatrix is not the most observant DE in LV's circle. She was far too vengeful to listen to Lucius Malfoy at the DOM fight, and at Spinner's End she passed up an important clue as to the whereabouts of the Order of the Phoenix headquarters.


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  #13  
Old February 24th, 2006, 9:39 pm
ktsmyles  Female.gif ktsmyles is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Very well though-out and original, which is a nice change from the hordes of "R.A.B. is ____" editorials!


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  #14  
Old February 24th, 2006, 10:22 pm
Silverwing  Female.gif Silverwing is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Great editorial! It answers a ton of questions and doesn't raise up as many as others I've read. It's more likely that Voldemort had Bella hide the locket; she is more competent that Wormtail and it would explain the H.B.P. statement (although she could be showing off). I like the Draught of Living Death idea, nice one!


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Old February 24th, 2006, 10:28 pm
Hermione57  Undisclosed.gif Hermione57 is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

I really like how this editorial considered how R.A.B. hid the locket rather than who R.A.B. is.

However, I find it difficult to believe that Voldemort would entrust a portion of his soul to the care of another person, not even Bellatrix.


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  #16  
Old February 24th, 2006, 10:39 pm
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

The editorial is pretty good, but there are alternative scenarios that allow for equally acceptable but very different conclusions that are much more consistent with everything that Dumbledore teaches Harry about Voldemort. Also, these ideas would do more to further the overall plot, whereas this simply provides backstory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by editorial
If R.A.B. wasn't trying to fool someone, why not just leave a note without putting it in a locket? Why not just put the note in a box?
I can only think of a few explanations, none of which I think is very likely.

Scenario X: JKR didn't think it through very hard, and just needed the plot device of letting Dumbledore think he and Harry had found a real Horcrux.
Scenario Y: Some magical alarm goes off if there is no locket there (think Indiana Jones replacing the statue with a bag of sand)

Scenario Z: Someone other than Voldemort, someone who didn't know what Slytherin's locket looks like, would believe the locket Horcrux was there.
Add to this,

Scenario W: Poetic irony: an item of value is left there as a little "ha ha" to Voldemort. It is in itself completely insignificant.


The critical flaw that I see here is that it requires that Voldemort allowed anyone near any of his Horcruxes. However, one of the chief lessons that Dumbledore gives about Voldemort is that he is entirely self-reliant. Voldemort would never let any of his minions near one of his Horcruxe localities because:
  1. Voldemort is extremely paranoid, and counts nobody as a friend;
  2. there is nothing that any of his servants can do that he cannot do better;
  3. Voldemort is not so busy that he cannot do this: indeed, everything else is a smokescreen for his Horcruxes

So, unless Dumbledore is very wrong, then any scenario that required Voldemort to trust one of his minions should be discounted. "But wait," you say, "what about the diary?" Here Voldemort did NOT allow any of his Death Eaters near a Horcrux cache; he was using one of them with important connections to plant a specialized Horcrux on an unsuspecting student: there is no reason to think that Malfoy would have woried about the ultimate fate of the Horcrux (i.e., being locked forever in the Chamber of Secrets). That is very different from sending one of them to a Cave and giving them the secrets for getting around its defenses!

(This also is important for the HBP story, which is about who one trusts, loves, etc.; for Harry, the answer is the people who deserve it; for Voldemort, the answer is "nobody but me;" so, this scenario would contradict not just Dumbledore's ideas, but the very thematic contrast between the protagonist and antagonist!)



Lest it appear that I am completely dismissing this, it does bring up one incredibly important point that people oddly overlook: Regulus somehow learned about the Cave. Now, that will be critical, because the knowledge that led Regulus to consider this possibility can further the plot. The editorial nails two very important things:
  1. Regulus had no reason to suspect that there was more than one Horcrux;
  2. Regulus could not have known about the Cave without learning a good deal about Voldemort's past

The question now is, what other places besides the Cave did Regulus consider? Remember, JKR needs a plot device to get Harry to Horcrux locales #4 & #5. JKR needs a simple way to get Harry more information. Whatever "list" Regulus constructed is one of them: because Regulus would have quit searching after he found "the" Horcrux, any other place on that list still is fair game for a Horcrux. That "list" probably resides in Harry's possession, in Kreacher's head.

That is the other important thing: if this editorial is correct, then it provides only backstory for the history of the Locket Horcrux. It would do nothing to advance the plot, and there would be almost no way for JKR to tell us this. What JKR needs to do is:
  1. Get Harry to figure out who RAB was;
  2. Get Harry to make sure that the locket is a defunct Horcrux;
  3. Find the Cup;
  4. Find the unknown Gryffindor/Ravenclaw Horcrux

This is the kick: JKR wants VII to be shorter than OotP (as do the world's forests and book reviewers), so it would really help if 1 led to 2 and 2 led to 3 and/or 4. (Dumbledore's memories will contribute to or be solely responsible for finding the other, one would guess.) Otherwise, some this would just be backstory and not further the overall plot. At this point, JKR does not have room for that, especially if she wants to be remembered as one of the great authors of history!


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  #17  
Old February 24th, 2006, 10:48 pm
Rengidar  Male.gif Rengidar is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Well, I dunno if it's important but anyway.
If we read the last word of each line in note we get sentence 'Lord-this-secret-can-match-more' If we change it a little bit it states 'Lord (although I think that there's no need for this word, on my opinion the note wasn't for Lord), This secret can match many.' We change more to many, that's all.
Well, O.K., maybe that's only a coincidence... But still - the line's aren't written 'normally', they aren't justified, so maybe it means something.
In the editorial, there wasn't much about the note, more about R.A.B., so I thought I could write this. Editorial was written relying on fact that R.A.B. was Regulus, but if it wasn't Regulus, then there's only little sense in it. But editorial is really good, still.


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Last edited by Rengidar; February 24th, 2006 at 10:51 pm.
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  #18  
Old February 24th, 2006, 11:01 pm
Nalin  Undisclosed.gif Nalin is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Neat theory! :thumbsup:

However, I think there is one possibility you may have overlooked. What if it was Regulus and Voldemort together who put the locket in the cave? Black could've doublecrossed Voldemort. There would have been enchantments and security measures only Voldemort could set, like the Inferi. Voldemort could have set Regulus Black to the task of enchanting the potion while Voldemort was busy with something else. While Voldemort's back was turned, Reg Black could have easily slipped the locket out of the potion he was supposed to be enchanting, since Voldemort is hardly omniscient.


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Old February 24th, 2006, 11:02 pm
gryfndorgrl  Female.gif gryfndorgrl is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

I don't think that Voldemort would have one person hide all of his horcruxes. I think that he wouldn't trust someone that much. I think that Voldemort entrusted individuals with 1 horcrux and would tell them how special they were because of it. This would ensure their loyalty beause they would think that they were more superior than the other death eaters, but they don't know about the others. Thats why Voldemort is so upset with Lucius. Because he allowed the horcux in his possesion to be destroyed.


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Old February 24th, 2006, 11:13 pm
Lady Alchymia  Female.gif Lady Alchymia is offline
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Re: Regulus and the Cave, the Locket and the Note

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idabomb333
Yeah, if I had to bet, I'd say it was Bella. Because of the comment and because she's the only one we know of with a connection to Regulus. I felt like that was a little too much speculation for the editorial, though. (I'm the author, by the way).
I really liked this editorial, thank you for writing it. I find your speculation to be quite logical and well-reasoned, and you point out several clever things I either hadn't noticed or thought too much about. Well done!

I rather like the idea of Bellatrix being the one who actually set up the cave and placed a locket in the potion. For what it's worth, here's my two pence worth of random ideas ...
  • Dumbledore describes the gift of blood (to get through the initial rock wall) to be 'crude'. Lord Voldemort prides himself on being anything but - he consistently affects the airs of a gentleman ... 'the niceties must be observed'. Whilst I could see him designing an entryway that requires a blood sacrifice, for Dumbledore to pause with surprise and note that it doesn't seem like him - 'how crude', could easily be an instruction from Rowling to the reader to be dubious that Voldemort himself created the wall barrier. Then we have an Indiana Jones like setup with evil zombies and the boat and the island with the potion. It's all just very melodramatic. Very much designed to impress with its dark savagery ... The whole choreography of the cave is very much screaming 'IT'S IN THE BOWL!!!! MWAH HA HA HA!!!'
  • By comparison, the only Horcrux we have seen depicted in full, the Riddle Diary, was described as 'brilliant' by Dumbledore. It was a masterpiece of charm and seduction, and yet Riddle was a mere teenager at the time (and one must concede, with apologies to all teenage boys, that this is not when a man is typically at his most subtle and debonair self). Could Voldemort really, some 40 odd years later, have grown so much less subtle?
As I said, I like the idea that Bellatrix designed and executed the delivery of the locket, so ... moving on to how Regulus might fit into the scheme of things.

How did Regulus even become a Death Eater? No doubt his Auntie Bella and Auntie Cissa's influence. Did Bella boast of her assignment to Cissa? Did Regulus overhear? Exactly how old was Regulus? We've all been assuming he is in the 18-20 age group at time of death, but could he have actually been underage like Draco? Bellatrix chides Narcissa in HBP that Draco should 'do his duty' when Cissa tries to say that the boy is too young ...
"Draco should be proud," said Bellatrix indifferently. "The Dark Lord is granting him a great honour. And I will say this for Draco: He isn’t shrinking away from his duty, he seems glad of a chance to prove himself, excited at the prospect –"

... then later ...

"My only son … my only son ..."

"You should be proud!" said Bellatrix ruthlessly. "If I had sons, I would be glad to give them up to the service of the Dark Lord!"
Could Bellatrix have even used Regulus as her sidekick, actually taken him to the cave with her? Had him travel across the lake with her in the '1 Adult Only' boat? Had him pour the green potion into the bowl for her? Did he help her when she tested it on herself (or him) to make sure the evil charms were working exactly the way they should (gotta love a beta test). Did he help Belatrix round up the inferi? There must have been many trips involved to set everything up. Did Regulus recognise people he knew amongst the inferi? Perhaps nice old Uncle Alphard?

Hmmm ... so, Regulus might have been used in some way on the inside, which means he only had to be an ordinary impressionable 16 year old kid - not some genius wonderboy. He didn't even need to know that the locket was a Horcrux (or even that there was such a spell). He only needed to know that unless the locket was destroyed, Voldemort would be immortal (which is a huge secret in its own right). And it is this secret that Regulus feels he had discovered. Perhaps Bellatrix couldn't help but boast about it at some point. Technically, she, herself, need not have known it was a Horcrux either - just that it was tied to immortality - his 'most precious' of Slytherin artefacts.

So ... what does an unremarkable 16 year old with Dark rellies know? Loads of good hexes, maybe an Unforgivable or two (Draco cast a successful Imperius on Madame Rosmerta), but Regulus would surely be at a disadvantage in a straight out battle with his Aunt Bella ... but, remember, that wasn't his intent. He desired to surreptitiously switch the lockets while she wasn't looking. He wanted to be able to gloat 'DEAR DARK LORD, IT IS I WHO FOILED YOUR EVIL PLAN!!'

So, how did he do it? My guess ...
  1. A switching spell at the last minute (seriously, why were we taught a switching spell way back in the early books, and then never saw it get used on anything interesting); and/or
  2. A Confundus Charm (like Hermione cast on Cormac McLaggen) to make Bellatrix see a big fat S on the fake locket.
Again, nice editorial

Lady A


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