Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination

[junika3]

Ah well. I guess I'm a lot like katsumi, except for the facts that I LOVE shopping, and I LOVE clothes.

[Lynn Tyger]

Originally Posted by katsumi

I have noticed a lot of discrimniation in these posts against women from women... hmmm...

Why is it that so many of us feel the need to reject, in such strong language, things that are typically considered to be female? And why is it that so many of us have assumed that other females are kind of base when compared withourselves?

I am hearing a lot of, "I don't gossip like other girls!" and "I'm not shallow like other girls!" and "I don't care about stupid things like romance and make-up like other girls!"
Do we really have that low of an opinion of women in general that this is what "other women/girls" are all about?

I'm curious to see what the rest of you think.

Here's how I would classify myself as a woman:

I love make-up (including Halloween). I hate shopping. I love shoes. I hate clothes. I love cats. I love dogs. I love to read and I love to watch movies that make me cry. I hate soaps but I love Buffy. I'm honest and forthright (some might call me pushy). I can tend toward gossip if it's about someone I hate--I never gossip about people I love. I am a romantic with definite limits: I like sincerity, not poetry. I like dependability and stability, not grand gestures of romantic intent.
How would I compare myself with other women? I have no idea.

Well, I also like to cook and I like o read. I like all types of movies from action to "chick flicks". I just get mad when other girls dislike/judge me for being both feminine and tomboyish, but not exactly girly.

[snape1101]

Wow, re-reading this thread it strikes me...

What a weird concept for a thread. I mean, anything that deals with stereotyping, with generalization, is bound to be false, because there are always exceptions to the rule.

But you still must admit that stereotypes aren't just made up out of thin air. There is always SOME basis in fact for a stereotype.

In response to Katsumi's illuminating and amusing post...

I hate make-up. I'm only 22, and I for some reason feel that I'm still young enough that I don't need it. I've always preferred a more natural look, and tend to like men that prefer a more natural look in women if you don't like me without my face all painted, then we probably wouldn't work out anyway.
I hate shopping, except on the internet.
I'm not that into shoes. I have three pairs of shoes-- my work shoes (I work in a restaurant), some sandals, and some "dress" shoes.
I love clothes. I like to find clothes that I like, that look good on me and feel good on me, I'm into different fabrics and styles.
Not that into weepy books and movies. Probably because I'm way too emotional as it is (I'm a scorpio, haha), I don't need anything to make me MORE emotional.
Gossip is fun as long as it's not mean-natured and hurtful. And I would never betray someone by repeating something I learned in confidence, or repeating something I knew that the person in question would not want to be known.
I'm definitely not a romantic. I can appreciate romance, I think it's cute, but it's definitely not required... this is something I've pretty recently realized about myself.
Example: I have a passion for eating out, for good restaurants. On my 21st birthday, I wanted to go out to a really fancy place, have a fancy meal and some good wine. I got all dressed up, let my sister put make-up on me, wore high-heels, etc. My boyfriend and I get in the car to go, run by the ATM, and find out that the check he'd deposited hadn't cleared yet, and we only had 20 dollars. I was devastated. I thought, there goes my perfect 21st birthday evening. I mean, I was ridiculously broken up about this.
We go back to the house, and Jason says, hey, well we can still go out. Let's go the Village (little cheap downtown place we go to sometimes-- kind of a dive, definitely not a five-star establishment). I changed into some jeans, and we went and had a pizza and a pitcher of beer. I had so much more fun than I would have had going to some fancy, more "romantic" place. I guess "romance" comes in all shapes and sizes. I realized that comfort is better.
It seems like, when I was younger, and when I was a teenager, I'd always fantasized about these grand romantic gestures, that the man I would end up falling in love with would be the type that gives huge bouqets of roses on Valentines Day, whisks you off to Paris, etc.
But strangely enough, I've realized that I'm a pretty practical person. I've found more happiness with a man I consider more of as a friend, someone that I feel comfortable with even when I wake up in the morning with bad breath and messed-up hair, that I don't have to be formal around. Now I see the whole grand-romance thing as kind of silly, and wouldn't much suit me anyway.

I don't know, I guess this is really off-topic, but once I get going never know where I'm going to end up, sorry.

[Wandering Bard]

1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?
No I don't think so. Mostly it's all down to social conditioning.

2) Do you believe that gendering is a matter of nature or nurture? A combination of both?
A combination of both.

3) Have you ever felt discriminated against or judged based on your gender?
Definitely.

4) Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?
I think gender is misunderstood by anyone who thinks in an "Us/Them" way. I've met both men and women who do it and it really upsets me.

5) Are there any fundamental questions you would like to ask of members of the opposite sex? (For obvious reasons, questions must be PG-13). Any misconceptions you would like to clear up that you feel are generally accepted about your gender?
The 'opposite sex'? Now that's exactly the kind of language that reinforces the 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' stereotype. It makes me sad. But no, there aren't any questions I'd like to ask.


6) Have you ever felt limited by gender roles or ostricized by other members of your own gender for failing to live up to stereotypes and expectations surrounding your gender?
Definitely. Damn it, I want to wear make-up!

[mystic_22]

I agree with wandering bard..
Men and women are not inherently different but it comes down to social conditioning.
A lot of people say the women are more emotional. But thats not true. They are human and all humans are differentlt emotional. A lot of men can be very emotional..
Men and women are physically different. And its sad but the world and society as you call it live by certain standards and rules. And we have moulded ourselves into those standards and rules. But the point is that we are all essentialy the same-we are all human.
Its been a rule since generations that women are supposed to look pretty. Therefore women go out of the way to make themselves look pretty. Thus the shopping addiction. And no one questions these stereo types. It's like an unwritten law of the universe.

Even in the women rights thread I brought up this issue. When girls are tomboys they are encouraged. When guys like to be like girls they are termed as sissies and looked down upon.
Why??
Why are the terms tomboy and sissy used at all.

[junika3]

Originally Posted by mystic_22

I
Why are the terms tomboy and sissy used at all.

The terms 'tomboy' and 'sissy' are the results of gender stereotyping. I mean, a girl could not be told that she has boyish attributes if boys haven't been stereotyped!

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by Wandering Bard

1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?
No I don't think so. Mostly it's all down to social conditioning.

How do you explain people who know that they have been born in the wrong body then? For example, a man might know deep inside that he is really female and opt to have an operation to change his gender. Biologically they are male and as a child they would have been socialised to be a male. Meaning being dressed in blue or whatever and given a football to play with rather than dolls and told to 'stop being a baby' when they cry. Society would have shaped him according to what they think 'male' means yet he knows that he is the opposite gender, he just has the wrong body. How does social conditioning explain this? How does biology explain this? Because I'm not aware that either can though I might be wrong!

[The other Jo]

Originally Posted by mystic_22

I agree with wandering bard..
Men and women are not inherently different but it comes down to social conditioning.
A lot of people say the women are more emotional. But thats not true. They are human and all humans are differentlt emotional. A lot of men can be very emotional..
Men and women are physically different. And its sad but the world and society as you call it live by certain standards and rules. And we have moulded ourselves into those standards and rules. But the point is that we are all essentialy the same-we are all human.
Its been a rule since generations that women are supposed to look pretty. Therefore women go out of the way to make themselves look pretty. Thus the shopping addiction. And no one questions these stereo types. It's like an unwritten law of the universe.

Even in the women rights thread I brought up this issue. When girls are tomboys they are encouraged. When guys like to be like girls they are termed as sissies and looked down upon.
Why??
Why are the terms tomboy and sissy used at all.

I don't think the terms in themselves are bad. It is the feeling behind them. We went around about this in the swearing thread. Words only have the power we give them. Someone can call me a tomboy as a compliment but they can also present it as an insult. The other interesting thing about these terms is that there is sometimes arguments as to who fits into them. For instance someone fits within one stereotype but fails in some way to completely fit. They then say they don't fit into that role. So then where do they fit? I see this as proof that everyone regardless of gender are different. People don't fit into terms that are easily understandable. It would be nice if the terms were not used but when used they should be used as descriptives and not definitions.

Mr. Bard brought up a good point about the question Is there anything you would want to ask the opposite sex. How well do we know our own gender? Maybe we should work on understanding everyone. Oh wait, impossible we are all too different.

Originally Posted by Sharky

How do you explain people who know that they have been born in the wrong body then? For example, a man might know deep inside that he is really female and opt to have an operation to change his gender. Biologically they are male and as a child they would have been socialised to be a male. Meaning being dressed in blue or whatever and given a football to play with rather than dolls and told to 'stop being a baby' when they cry. Society would have shaped him according to what they think 'male' means yet he knows that he is the opposite gender, he just has the wrong body. How does social conditioning explain this? How does biology explain this? Because I'm not aware that either can though I might be wrong!

This I would imagine is on a biological level. Even if something is not proven biological doesn't mean that it is not. There have been too many instances of people being homosexual in a home inviroment that also raises non-homosexual adults to think that it is a product of nurturing. Not sure if I am explaining that well.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by Sharky

How do you explain people who know that they have been born in the wrong body then? For example, a man might know deep inside that he is really female and opt to have an operation to change his gender. Biologically they are male and as a child they would have been socialised to be a male. Meaning being dressed in blue or whatever and given a football to play with rather than dolls and told to 'stop being a baby' when they cry. Society would have shaped him according to what they think 'male' means yet he knows that he is the opposite gender, he just has the wrong body. How does social conditioning explain this? How does biology explain this? Because I'm not aware that either can though I might be wrong!

I think that it's merely that the man doesn't want to have to live up to the expectations of how men should act that society has set. He would rather live up the expectations society has set up for women.... His personality is more "feminine" than it is "masculine".

[junika3]

Originally Posted by Spirit

I think that it's merely that the man doesn't want to have to live up to the expectations of how men should act that society has set. He would rather live up the expectations society has set up for women.... His personality is more "feminine" than it is "masculine".

So if it wasn't for gender stereotyping, there wouldn't be those sort of people on earth?

[mystic_22]

Originally Posted by junika3

So if it wasn't for gender stereotyping, there wouldn't be those sort of people on earth?

I agree with Junika3.
The concepts and situations that Sharky has given are purely biological.
When we say socal conditioning its about the way people live and behave.
A lot of women because of social conditioning are more the ranch hand type rather than the sweet house wives.
That does not make them more masculine. Its just the way they are.
But what you are talking about is phsycological and biological problem.

[junika3]

Originally Posted by mystic_22

I
But what you are talking about is phsycological and biological problem.

Exactly. I mean, it is not just a psychological thing, it is biological, too. Before the 'roles' of men and women were...'defined' there HAD to be people like this. So how can it only be the result of sterotyping?

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by mystic_22

I agree with Junika3.
The concepts and situations that Sharky has given are purely biological.

Is there any evidence to back that up or is it just an assumption?

[mystic_22]

Originally Posted by Sharky

Is there any evidence to back that up or is it just an assumption?

Well I am not sure if its a scientifically proven fact.
Will check up on it though..
But I also said that it was biological and PHSYCOLIGICAL PROBLEM..
And I gave you an example a woman more interested in the ranch and horses,whose always doing the hard labour in shorts rather than sitting in the house with her knitting. will not be considered more masculine and will not feel masculine herself.Its just because she has lived her life taht way. Its social conditioning.
But people who do feel that they are in the wrong body have a problem.
Phsycoligical and as far as I know bioligically too.

[Sharky]

Originally Posted by mystic_22

Well I am not sure if its a scientifically proven fact.
Will check up on it though..
But I also said that it was biological and PHSYCOLIGICAL PROBLEM..
And I gave you an example a woman more interested in the ranch and horses,whose always doing the hard labour in shorts rather than sitting in the house with her knitting. will not be considered more masculine and will not feel masculine herself.Its just because she has lived her life taht way. Its social conditioning.
But people who do feel that they are in the wrong body have a problem.
Phsycoligical and as far as I know bioligically too.

Hmmm, ok! I'm not really talking about stereotypical behaviour but more like a feeling. I can't describe what I mean very well because I don't understand it myself. It's like Charl said, maybe we have male and female souls. It's almost as if our gender is an emotion, we just have it, it isn't formed biologically (that I know of) and it isn't shaped by society (though that can have an impact). I don't really know how else to explain what I mean.

[The other Jo]

Originally Posted by mystic_22

I agree with Junika3.
The concepts and situations that Sharky has given are purely biological.
When we say socal conditioning its about the way people live and behave.
A lot of women because of social conditioning are more the ranch hand type rather than the sweet house wives.
That does not make them more masculine. Its just the way they are.
But what you are talking about is phsycological and biological problem.

I disagree. I was raised to be very girly, proper if you will. I was schooled and taught to be a certain way. I was always a tomboy much to my parent’s dismay. I was a free thinker when they wanted me to be compliant. I was also adopted. I do think a lot of this goes to biology as well.

[Dayam]

Stereotypes can be true in some ways and it does force people to become something. Is this bad? I guess it's all in how you see it.

[junika3]

Originally Posted by The other Jo

I disagree. I was raised to be very girly, proper if you will. I was schooled and taught to be a certain way. I was always a tomboy much to my parent’s dismay. I was a free thinker when they wanted me to be compliant. I was also adopted. I do think a lot of this goes to biology as well.

By saying you think has a lot to do with biology you are agreeing with mystic_22...

Here's a question: If there is/had been no gender stereotying EVER, do you think there would be fewer of those type of people? Why? Why not?

[The other Jo]

Originally Posted by junika3

By saying you think has a lot to do with biology you are agreeing with mystic_22...

Here's a question: If there is/had been no gender stereotying EVER, do you think there would be fewer of those type of people? Why? Why not?

A lot of women because of social conditioning are more the ranch hand type rather than the sweet house wives.

It was this bit that I was responding to.

No, you are who you are, then people label you it is not the other way around. If you were to meet me, you would most likely label me a girly woman. That would be you labeling the person not me becoming girly becuase you have said that. If you got to know me you would realize I am a tomboy. Also a label earned. My point is these labels only describe the person that I am, they don't make me who I am.

[mystic_22]

Originally Posted by The other Jo

I disagree. I was raised to be very girly, proper if you will. I was schooled and taught to be a certain way. I was always a tomboy much to my parent’s dismay. I was a free thinker when they wanted me to be compliant. I was also adopted. I do think a lot of this goes to biology as well.

As Junika3 pointed out. You are in a way agreeing with me. I said that when you do not turn out to be the way you are brought it ususally has something to do with genes.
On the other hand I do not like and understand the use of the word tomboy..
Explain yourself a little more clearly please..
Besides you may have been the way you were because of other social surroundings.
Like school,friends,movies,peer pressure.
Social conditioning does not always mean the way your parents teach you to be.