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Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Discussion for Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret by Lady Lupin.
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#2
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Wonderfull editorial.
I have one thing to add I dont know if you covered this I skimmed the last part, but when wormtail did the charm he would have also protected harry as well as harrys parents, so isnt it possible that wormtail also told harry the location when he was a baby. He may not have understood it but harry might not need to have in order to find godrics hollow. So harry might already know where godrics hollow is. Thanks, Chris |
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#3
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
I was going to say the same thing as kld113. ^^ I doubt someone can be inside a Hidden house without being told the secret - and Harry has been in the house.
More questions, though, of course: Does one have to remember the location to see the house? Harry had to concentrate on the address to see Grimmauld Place, but he never had to do that again - he just remembered it in the back of his mind. But after all this time, could Harry even do that, with Godric's Hollow? I hope so. Anyway, Lady Lupin, you know I adore all your editorials, and this one is no exception! Great job, and keep 'em coming. ^^
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*waves past generation flag proudly*
James, Lily, Sirius, Remus, Snape, Bellatrix, Wormtail, Narcissa, Lucius, Regulus, Andromeda ![]() *too Potter for the movies* |
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#4
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Could it be possible that Sirius told Hagrid where the location was when he himself was secret keeper? As far as I understood it. Sirius was secret keeper then they switched to Wormtail. Perhaps Hagrid and Dumbledore were told by the secret keeper "of the day". This opens up a lot of new possibilities with switching secret keepers. Hopefully you follow me.
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#5
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Quote:
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*waves past generation flag proudly*
James, Lily, Sirius, Remus, Snape, Bellatrix, Wormtail, Narcissa, Lucius, Regulus, Andromeda ![]() *too Potter for the movies* |
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#6
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Good editorial - I would just like to mention one thing, however - it's the house in Godric's Hollow, not the village of Godric's Hollow itself that was hidden (IIRC).
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Mettle not in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup. Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate. |
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#7
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Another well written editorial, Lady Lupin. As I said in a previous post I think you are the best editorial columnist on any Harry Potter site I have found to date.
The missing day has always been a mystery. Why did it take Dumbledore so long to tell Hagrid where to go? That wormtail had written the location of Godric's Hollow down is probably certain since how else could anyone know where it was? Who were these notes given to and who else was allowed to see them? It has already been speculated that Hagrid did not take Harry straight to the Dursley's but took to a "safe" location for the duration of that day although I cannot even hazard a guess as to where this location might be. I first thought of Sirius' old place since it was his motorbike that Hagrid borrowed but, since everyone thought Sirius was the secret keeper, this would seem very unlikely. We can only hope that JKR answers this question in book seven. It is just one of many loose ends that need to be tidied up during this book. |
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#8
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
I'm sure since the house blew up any muggles nearby would notice unless the muffling spell was puton the house to prevent any noise and an invisibility spell was on the house - you'd have to have both or muggles would see a house blowing up noiselessly or hear an invisible explosion. The mind boggles at the thought of that.
However were James and Lily prisoners in their own house because if they went out they could be seen or if the house didn't have the charm on it but they did then if they went out nobody would know?? very confusing this charm. I don't really undertand it. Seeing the muggles were swarming all over the place the explosion must have been seen and heard (unless they saw the results next day when the charm had lifted?) If they did see and hear the explosion then maybe the fid.. charm didn't apply to them. Maybe you put on the charm so only certain people may never know where the Potters were and others couldn't divulge it? Anyway obviously the charm was lifted at some stage and maybe the ruin of the house is still there or maybe another house or something else is there where the house used to be? Harry should be able to find something there but will also want to go the his parents graves (if they had some) for closure. He needs to grieve. That's only natural and I can't understand why he hasn't asked Dumbledore to take him there before this. |
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#9
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
terrific editorial. might be your best yet. i LOVED it. i wondered about all these things when we got the answer to the FAQ poll and i'm glad you wrote an editorial about it with more oportunities about what could have happened. you summed many interesting theories i read in the comment board at that time and got up with new theories. it was very well writen and gave me a lot of thinking to do. i agree with everything you wrote and i'll kill to know the answers to all those burning questions. i'm not sure i agree on the petunia theory though but you gave good examples and it could very well be true.
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#10
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Many unclarities surrounding this issue and I'm not sure I believe JKR will make it coherent. For instance, what happens when the house explodes (or however it was destroyed)? Will it do so in silence? If the explosion is big enough will it affect nearby trees for instance since in a way the tree isn't next to it as it isn't there.
Also, who's to say that there isn't a way Wormtail can just divulge the information generally? I mean, without telling anyone, there could be a way of just making that information public in some way we do not know of? For instance, if that is a possibility, it is not inconceivable that Lily asked Wormtail for that one thing if he was there. And if Wormtail heard that last dying request in the moment were he felt like the biggest heap of **** in the world, if he could, I think he would. Quote:
He is kind of the opposite of Neville. He will do anything for fun, but when it really matters, so far he has done what's most likely to keep him alive, and not the right thing. It just goes to show that there are many types of bravery, and perhaps he lacks the right kind. I reckon people ought to read http://www.redhen-publications.com/Pettigrew.html if they want to gain understanding about this character. Last edited by Perman; March 18th, 2006 at 12:58 pm. |
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#11
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Wonderful editorial, Lady Lupin! As always!
You're right, what we know about what happened the day the Potters were killed raises a lot of questions. But about Hagrid being able to go there in PS/SS, and Harry too, in book 7, I've always thought that the explosion that followed Voldemort's backfiring killing curse made the Fidelius Charm stop working. Either because the explosion was very unusual (Avada Kedavra had never backfired like that before) or because a killing curse had hit (though not killed) all three persons protected by the Charm. It seems logical that the Charm would stop working when the persons protected by it were killed. And even if Harry didn't die, he was hit by the Avada Kedavra, and he should have died. So the Charm probably just "assumed" that since all the persons protected by it were hit by a killing curse, it wasn't necessary anymore. |
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#12
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
You've been wonderful again, Lady Lupin.
It's true, the only way of delivering the location of the Potters without beeing known as Secret Keeper is writing, and I dare say that the notes were made faking Sirius' writing,this probably suggested by Sirius himself to support the belief that he was SK. I'm not a fan of graphology, but I must agree that very often one's personality is somehow reflected in his writing. If it is so, I'm sure that Sirius' and Wormtail's would have been so different that nobody who knew them both could have mistaken them. And Dumbledore knew them quite well (or that he thought). Number of copies of the location: One. I don't think Lupin knew where his friends were. Let's remember that scene in the Shrieking Shack: Quote:
Where was that piece of paper? Hided. Perhaps in a vault in Gringotts, with the PS. Why? Dumbledore would haven't risked this copy been stolen or lost. But if Sirius (supposed SK) was going to hide himself, they'd neeed another way to find the Potters in an emergency. So, during that lost day, Dumbledore would have been to Gringotts, taken the note and showed to Hagrid, or sent Hagrid himself to take the note, read it, and leave for Godric's Hollow. And, later, he sent it to Petunia, or kept it himself, in case it was necessary. Snape. He had told Vold about the prophecy. He had to know that Wormtail was the spy. Perhaps he overheard, or eavesdropped Wormtail telling Vold the Potters whereabouts and followed them. He saw everything (hidden somewhere) and... Lady Lupin wonders if he would have left baby Harry there. 1) He doesn't see Harry is alive. He goes to Dumbledore and says: Vold went there and the house has blown up. Dumbledore sends Hagrid at once, for if someone was still alive. But what reason had he to thik someone could be alive after such an explosion? Er... not. 2) He sees Harry alive. Vold has evaporated. He's a DE. But he's DD's agent, too. Taking the baby to Dumbledore would be as shouting "I'm a traitor", and then all DE would be after him. So he goes to Dumbledore and tells Harry is alive. Dumbledore sends Hagrid, etc. He has secured by this DD's protection towards him, but can be still ambiguous enough to avoid DE's suspictions. I like it. But he let Sirius go to Azkaban! Of course he did. Perhaps he didn't tell Dumbledore about Wormtail foreseeing Sirius would be accused. Sirius was innocent of betraying the Potters, but, for Snape, he was still guilty of attempted murder, for that idiot joke when he almost made him eaten by Lupin. Snape would think that Sirius had what he deserved, some years delayed. DD's and Hagrid's suspictions. Lady Lupin doesn't think Hagrid would have borrowed Sirius' motorcycle if he had suspected him. True. But if Hagrid was shown a piece of paper and he didn't know who wrote it he had no reason to suspect and would have taken it as it was: the best friend of the Potters trying to help. Till a couple of days later he wouldn't "know" about Sirius' guilt. Dumbledore... Again thinking the best of everybody? Or perhaps in that moment he didn't suspect Sirius? He could have thought, in those first confusing moments, that someone had intercepted one of the papers with the information, if he didn't know how many they were. Till that talking with Hagrid he could have tought Sirius dead and then beginning to suspect, but he didn't want to say anything before having proof (fair, gentlemanlike and Griffindorish behaviour), and pretended before hagrid and McG. Or perhaps he had been too busy all day to think of suspects, for, in spite of what he told McG, I'm sure he wasn't feasting or celebrating at all, but working hard: taking little Harry, evoking that magical protection for him, avoiding interferences from the Ministry, keeping Snape hidden, writing Aunt Petunia's letter... Let's don't forget, however, that the last and definitive proof against Sirius was Wormtail shouting 'Lily and James, Sirius! How could you?' before he "died". We have learnt about all this thing many years later and think everything is clear, but, in the moment it was happening, it would be an absolute mess!
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Madrid, March 11th, 2004. WHO DID IT? WE WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ![]() Last edited by MmeBergerac; March 18th, 2006 at 1:43 pm. |
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#13
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
I had a couple of thoughts after reading the editorial, but both fail the follow thru test. I also thought that maybe the secret was "The Potters are in hiding at Godrics Hollow"...which would mean that the secret wasn't where Godrics Hollow is, but that that's where the Potters were hiding. I first thought that once the Potters were killed, they technically were no longer hiding and the secret "died". However, Harry is a Potter, too. So, as long as Harry was still alive, the secret should have stayed "hidden". If that was the case, then no one would be able to retrieve Harry unless the secret of where he was hiding was revealed to them. I don't buy the theory that Peter wrote notes to be distributed to the Potters friends. If that was the case, why have a secret keeper at all? Defeats the purpose.
My next theory was that Snape was present at Godrics Hollow the night the Potters were killed. Peter reveals the hiding place to Voldemort. Snape is the one to hear the prophesy after all, so maybe Voldemort has Peter tell Snape as well so he can "tag along". I thought, could this be the time that Snape is having second thoughts? He does owe James a life debt after all. If Peter used a note to tell Snape the Potters hiding place, it would be possible that the note was not destroyed and he took it to Dumbledore. While I lilke the idea that Snape may have tried to save James's life, it wouldn't explain how Sirius and Hagrid knew to go to Godrics Hollow. Also doesn't explain why Dumbledore didn't immediately suspect Sirius of betrayal if he thought Sirius was the secret keeper. Every time I think I found an explanation, I circle back around... I fear that this is going to be one of those things that Jo comes out and says, "Oops, you readers are too smart for me. Didn't think of that" or something to that effect. There is probably nothing to it. Drats. |
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#14
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
3
Disclamer: I mean all of the following to be complementary. Sorry this is not edited. Here, again, is a original idea that I had not though of. So many times when I read the HP books I can also hear hannibal lecter's voice in my ear "you looked but did not see, all you need to figure it out is in those pages." I get a great feeling of tingling like I am getting very close to The Answer, and then nothing--it goes away. And then there is JKR saying Quote:
Nicole, a original idea, some flaws, but better than anyithing I would be able to come up with and certanly promotes discussion. The most simple (occam's razor = one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything), plausable explination to how Dumbledore and Hagrid reacted so quickly after the Potters were killed is that Peter was the first and only Secret-Keeper for the Potters Secret info (which is not relivant to this specific topic) and told only Sirius, Peter then wrote on paper the info, which Sirius took to show to Dumbledore and Hagrid (and possiably others) then burned the paper. Peter told Voldemort, but Voldemort waited untill he was sure that they would not be inturrupted by Dumbledore or Sirius since he would get one shot at it (if he failed his great useful spy Peter would be discovered and it would be much harder to find the Potters again.). Information from Snape on where Dumbledore was at a certain day and time was easy. But he would have to wait on whereabouts of Sirius (Because Sirius was in hiding because since Sirius was blufing Secret-Keeper). When Sirius arranged a meeting to check on Peter's safty and saw he was gone, and got a bad feeling, it must have been because Peter was told of the meeting by Sirius and told his master of the meeting before hand, did not show up for the meeting but instead showed up at the Potter's which would have made it easy for Voldemort to get by the magical protections of the house, if any, to take them by suprise so that any calls for help, if any, could be only to the ones who knows where they are at and that it would take some time for them to arrive to help. Voldemort battles with and kills James. Then he kills Lily and then attempts to kill harry. Dumbledore who knows the location of the Potters but cannot tell anyone but Hagrid and by using the same type of magic that the ministry uses to monitor underage magic and/or by something like Weasly's clock (his strange watch) knows that the Potters are dead, and DD knows that Voldemort has fallen by info from Snape's scar. So DD orders Hagrid to take Harry to the Dursleys to meet him there in 24 hours (why so long? mabye the journey requires 24 hours to take), then DD goes with Snape to notify the Ministry of Magic and hunt down the death eaters. By this time Snape is in Azcaban without trial. Harry does not need to be told the secret info of his parents because he was present when Peter told Sirius and James and Lily (as a baby) all he has to do is rembember it. Yes I know there are flaws in my theory. Mabye it can be inproved. Any alternate theories should somehow go allong with some of the following information: Quote:
Quote:
The phrase "concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul" implies that there can be only one Secret-Keeper for a certain secret at a time and that the Secret-Keeper can only be human. The phrase "impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." implies that only the Secret-Keeper can tell others about the secret and if it is possiable to change Secret-Keepers than the first Secret-Keeper must approve the change and the former Secret-Keeper will have no more power to tell anyone of the secret. The last sentence, in the quote above, implies that Godric's Hollow is a village and even if Voldemort knew that Potters were in GH it would not help him much at all. McGonogal knew that the Potters were hiding in GH after all. Quote:
Quote:
Sirius knows the precise location of the Potters, so Quote:
The Secret-Keeper thing is simular and diffrent from the Unbreakable Vow but it seems that the latter is not recomended by Ron's dad. |
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#15
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
OMG! That was the best editorial ever written. When J.K answered the F.A.Q poll 'What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?' I didn't think much of the Potters etc. I was more wrapped up in the implication of Dumbledore's death and the location of #12 Grimmauld Place. You've really opened up a can or worms.
I never realised before how many evil things Wormtail has done and I honestly think the Sorting Hat made a mistake with sorting him into Gryffindor. I also never realised the implications of Snape being at Godric's Hollow on the night of the Potters' death. On one hand, he might have told Dumbledore what had happend, enabling Dumbledore to rescure baby Harry- giving Dumbledore a fantastic reason to trust him. Or on the other hand he may have witnessed the whole thing, knewn Wormtail was the secret keeprer and done nothing- if thats the case I hold about as much hope for redemption for Snape as I think there is for Wormtail. ZERO! You've really given us a lot to think about and J.K will have a lot to answer in the last book. I can see why two chapters have turned into 4. I just have one question. If for arguments sake, no body knows the location of Godric's Hollow apart from Wormtail. How will Harry find Wormtail to get this information. The last place we saw Wormtail was at Snape's- I dare to think of the implications of Harry going to Snape's house! ![]()
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Please check out my new fanfic - Regrets and feedback. Come Join Obliviate Forums ~* Proud Slytherin *~ ![]() |
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#16
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Quote:
Good theory, friend. I take off my hat.
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Madrid, March 11th, 2004. WHO DID IT? WE WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ![]() |
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#17
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
If Godric's Hollow is a village as JK said then anybody should be able to go there - after all Hagrid said he got Harry out before any muggles swarmed arounf the blown up house. However I somehow think that a someone musgt have known about Sirius swapping with Wormtail in the Secret Keeper thingy. Some magic should be able to detect this surely?
I am still finding hard to believe that Siruis didn't loudly protest his innocence well before he supposedly saw Pettigrew as Scabbers in the Daily Phophet. Can you imagine a daily newspaper b eing delivered to prisoners each day in a place like Azkaban? I think not as Dementors don't want to give the prisoners |
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#18
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Good morning,
Great editorial, Lady Lupin, you raise so many questions! There has been some good discussion on this same topic in the Burrow as well. I personally think that the Fidelius Charm protected the Potters themselves - not their house or their village. I think this because Flitwick says something about Voldemort going right up to their window but not being able to see them unless he was told the secret by the Secret-Keeper. It does not seem inconcievable to me that Peter told Sirius the Secret. If they switched at the last minute then Sirius was probably there when the charm was cast (probably by Lily, I agree) and could have been told then. Sirius could not have told Voldemort anyway because he was not the Secret-Keeper, so it was safe to tell him. But Hagrid and Dumbledore are another story. It certainly seems possible they knew the Potters were in Godric's Hollow. They may have even known their address! But once the charm was cast, I think they couldn't actually *see* the Potters unless Wormtail told them. Which doesn't make much sense to me, because I see a big flaw here: if someone knew they had a house in Godric's Hollow before the charm was cast, even if this person couldn't see them in it because they didn't know the secret from Wormtail, they could just go destroy the house and hope the Potters were in it and therefore destroyed. (I see similar issues with 12 Grimmauld Place). So I could be way off ![]() Either way, someone around here has theorized that the Fidelius Charm is so named because the secret is protected by the fidelity of the Secret-Keeper. I will not take credit for this - I hope this person raises their hand and offers some thoughts! I for one thought it was a very interesting thought. Perhaps the charm broke when Wormtail betrayed the Potters by revealing the secret to Voldemort, and this is why Dumbledore, Hagrid and Sirius could all find them in Godric's Hollow. Or perhaps the charm broke with the death of James and Lily. However, I do wonder why the charm didn't continue to protect Harry. Perhaps the AK curse destroyed the charm, I could believe that. And so with the charm broken, the three Potters were visible. I think it very possible Dumbledore knew the Potters were in Godric's Hollow, he just wasn't privy to the secret as protected by the charm. So he could have told Hagrid. But there are still two more questions: how did Dumbledore know so quickly what had happened? Hagrid got to the house before the Muggles started swarming around; a house exploding has got to attract some attention, and quickly (although its possible the house was somewhat isolated). And if Dumbledore thought Sirius was the Secret-Keeper, then I think Lady Lupin asks one of the best questions, one I had never thought of: why didn't Dumbledore bat an eye when Hagrid mentioned seeing Sirius at the house and borrowing his motorbike? Perhaps he was thinking that Sirius had betrayed the Potters but didn't share it on Privet Drive. But I do wonder. The editorial lays out so many thoughts that this is sure to be a wonderful discussion. Thanks for your great work, Lady Lupin! ~Gina ![]() |
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#19
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
My last post somehow was cut off mid transmission - it seems to happen occasionally - anyhow I can't imagine prisoners in Azkaban gettiing the daily newspapers so how did Sirius really find out about Peter Pettigrew being Scabbers? Methinks "something stinks in Denmark and it ain't the fish!" Please don't ask me where this saying originated as I don't really know but I love saying it!
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#20
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Re: Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret
Lady Lupin, thanks for such a great, thought-provoking editorial...your column is always a joy to read!
One idea you mentioned in this editorial is the possibility that the Fidelius Charm was nullified when Harry was rescued because there was no one left at Godric's Hollow to protect. But at the end of OotP and the beginning of HBP, Dumbledore is concerned about the status of 12 Grimmauld Place's secret now that Sirius is dead. If Dumbledore isn't certain that the house is still safe, it's unlikely that Phoenix members would be staying there in the meantime (not to mention the night at the DoM when the Order showed up to save Harry, which meant they were not at the house). So, even though the house is (presumably) empty, that's not why Dumbledore is concerned about the Charm still being in place. This might indicate that it's the location, not the individuals, that the Charm ultimately protects. I'm sorry for the extra post, but I was cut off before! ![]() An additional question I've always had (and maybe there's been an editorial and I missed it), but why/how, out of the all the wizards in wizardkind, would Wormtail find Percy Weasley?? This may be just one of those necessary plot devices, but what are the chances of him finding a home with Ron Weasley's brother? Since Wormtail's ineptitude is emphasized in the books, we can't assume that he could somehow forsee an opportunity to spy on the good guys. Knowing his cowardly and fearful nature, it seems more likely that he would seek shelter with a Death Eater or other fellow Voldemort supporter, or just go into hiding altogether in some foreign country. Is there some Weasley-Potter connection that existed long before Ron and Harry that would give Wormtail the incentive to seek out Percy? Any ideas? I've always been curious about this. |
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