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Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot



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  #1  
Old April 8th, 2006, 3:49 am
navygreen  Female.gif navygreen is offline
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Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Discussion for The Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot by Daniela Teo.


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  #2  
Old April 8th, 2006, 6:34 am
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Very interesting...I haven't read the editorial about the Mirror, I'll have to go back and read it. The only thing that seems off to me is, I thought Draco said he figured out what the cabinets did because Montegue told him he could hear things from both Hogwarts and Borgin and Burkes while trapped in it. So, if this is the case, then we have no evidence that Voldemort even knew about them. I might have forgotten something, so if I have, please tell me. Here is the quote I'm thinking of:

"In Borgin and Burkes," said Malfoy, "and they make a kind of passage between them. Montague told me that when he was stuck in the Hogwarts one, he was trapped in limbo but sometimes he could hear what was going on at school, sometimes what was going on in the shop, as if the cabinet was traveling between them...Everyone thought it was a really good story, but I was the only one who realized what it meant--even Borgin didn't know--I was the one who realized there could be a way into Hogwarts through the cabinets if I fixed the broken one." (HBP p. 587, American edition)

So, from this, unless I have forgotten something, we don't have any evidence of Voldemort ever even knowing about them, or really even knowing specifically that was Draco's plan.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I did enjoy reading your editorial!


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Old April 8th, 2006, 6:57 am
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

You are right Nevillesgal, I got that part wrong. Draco didn't know from Voldemort about the cabinets. He figured it out alone. Does that mean Voldemort didn't know? In any case, it changes the idea that V. was sacrificing the cabinets. Maybe he didn't want to tell Draco afterall, even if he did know about the cabinets, because he wanted to keep access to the school no matter what? I suppose it's possible he had no idea what that Cabinet did...


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Old April 8th, 2006, 7:07 am
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
You are right Nevillesgal, I got that part wrong. Draco didn't know from Voldemort about the cabinets. He figured it out alone. Does that mean Voldemort didn't know? In any case, it changes the idea that V. was sacrificing the cabinets. Maybe he didn't want to tell Draco afterall, even if he did know about the cabinets, because he wanted to keep access to the school no matter what? I suppose it's possible he had no idea what that Cabinet did...
You very well could be right that LV might have known about the cabinets. It's very interesting that he did work in the shop, so if they were there during that time, then there is a really good chance he does know. I don't think he let Draco in on the secret though. Do we know how long the cabinets have been around?

I also found it interesting about Dumbledore not knowing about them. He certainly didn't seem to in his conversation with Draco at the Tower. You're right, why didn't he search the school more completely? Was he feigning ingnorance with Draco? I also think LV would have tried to get into Hogwarts undetected. If they were able to come into the school this way, without anyone figuring it out, then the protection on the school dosen't extend to the inside of it, I would guess. So, I wonder what other ways one could enter from the inside?


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Old April 8th, 2006, 7:14 am
frizzle  Undisclosed.gif frizzle is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

First, congratulations on completing this stage of your dissertation! It is quite an accomplishment! I'm curious about what is your topic?

About the editorial: I am intrigued by the idea of Voldemort sneaking into Hogwarts repeatedly through the cabinets, though I feel there is little definitive evidence for this idea other than that we know that (like Harry) he felt that was his only real home and that he was seeking valuable artifacts of the founders for horcrux-making.

Ans, sorry, I cannot at all agree with the conjecture about the Mirror of Erised being a horcrux. It just seems that too many "could-have" bridges would have to be crossed at once for this to work. Perhaps re-reading descriptions of some smaller things (which could be carrried back and forth through the cabinets) that were confiscated by Filch over the years, or in trophy displays would be fruitful ground for identifying one or two of the missing horcruxes.


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Old April 8th, 2006, 7:24 am
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevillesgal
So, I wonder what other ways one could enter from the inside?
What's interesting is that over and over we've had hints of unsupervised ways of getting inside Hogwarts. For example, 1) the Floo network. I think Sirius could have actually walked into the Gryffindor common room if he chose (he wanted to come "over there" when he heard Snape was not giving Harry Occlumency lessons any more; Harry was speaking from Umbridge's office). 2) the underground passages; Harry takes one into Hogsmeade, and no protective spells keep him from going back and forth (in fact, nothing keeps Sirius from doing the same in the third book).

I don't know if these examples were meant to foreshadow for us the danger in HBP, or if they also say something about the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frizzle
And, sorry, I cannot at all agree with the conjecture about the Mirror of Erised being a horcrux.
That feels a bit strong, not at all... we'll just agree to disagree. I think it is possible that it is not a Horcrux, of course, but I see as many, or more, good arguments for as against...



Last edited by MagicLantern; April 8th, 2006 at 7:29 am.
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Old April 8th, 2006, 8:36 am
KarenSpeak KarenSpeak is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

I'm glad you're back Daniela! I thought you'd left us for good, it was sad :-)

I don't really think the mirror is a horcrux tho, I don't have any real reason or proof for this assumption tho, just my thoughts. A also think that Dumbledore probably knew more about the Room of Requirement than he implyed while talking Karkarof about it. He was trying to make the point that he didn't assume to know all of the castles secrets and, well, Dumbledore does have a rather unique way of expressing himself sometimes! And he is prone to just hinting to what he actually knows; leaving out important info that he is aware of.


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Old April 8th, 2006, 8:47 am
LaDonna  Female.gif LaDonna is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

I can see why Voldemort would want to make the Mirror a horcrux. It seems to be fairly complicated magic, Dumbledore certainly seems to place value in it, and Harry himself becomes obsessed with it (and Dumbledore tells us it has lead others to insanity). We know that from the time VM came to Hogwarts, he was desperate to be unique, special, gifted, and feared. Imagine his coming across this mirror where he sees himself as exactly those things. Dumbledore tells Harry that hundreds before him have discovered the mirror. Dumbledore also says it has driven men mad who didn't know if what it shows is real or even possible. Harry learns what power the mirror holds from Dumbledore, and so he is able to walk away from it. But would VM? I'm not so sure. Actually, I just thought of something. JK was asked what would have happened if in COS Ginny had died and Tom Riddle was able to come out of the diary, and JK said it would have helped the current VM a lot. So if this is true, than it seems as though VM would have used Quirrell to get the piece of the soul from the mirror and reunite it with Vapour VM. Obviously, VM has studied Horcrux's, and would probably know the benefit of this, if JK is telling us. I think he would have still wanted to get the stone from the mirror, but I'm pretty sure he would have wanted his piece of soul that was in the mirror as well. I won't be shocked if the mirror turns out to be a horcrux, but at this point I'm leaning to it not being a horcrux.



Last edited by LaDonna; April 8th, 2006 at 1:12 pm.
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Old April 8th, 2006, 4:03 pm
Aerie  Female.gif Aerie is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

This article gave me the hope that Hogwarts will still be a place Harry must still be involved with. At the end of HBP I got the feeling that Hogwarts would not even stay open for Harry to return to, even if he wanted to. This revelation made me a bit sad, as well as all the other unfortunate events that happened at the end of that book. It sure seems like he's got to go back to the ROR if anything to retrieve his old Potions book. It took many re-readings to decide if he had placed it in the Vanishing Cabinet, but it seems like he put it in another cabinet, NEAR the black Vanishing cabinet.


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Old April 8th, 2006, 4:51 pm
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenSpeak
[. . .] Dumbledore does have a rather unique way of expressing himself sometimes! And he is prone to just hinting to what he actually knows; leaving out important info that he is aware of.
I wondered about that, if he was hiding what he knew. It is possible that he was also being humble because of his memory of the year before, when he didn't know what way Sirius was using into the castle... which means he didn't know about all the underground tunnels. (But then, maybe only the Fred and George types -- or else Voldemort -- discover these kinds of things?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerie
This article gave me the hope that Hogwarts will still be a place Harry must still be involved with.
You know how Harry said to Hagrid in the movie "There's no Hogwarts without you Hagrid?" I can't imagine Harry Potter without Hogwarts! There has got to be at least a trip to it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaDonna
Actually, I just thought of something. JK was asked what would have happened if in COS Ginny had died and Tom Riddle was able to come out of the diary, and JK said it would have helped the current VM a lot. So if this is true, than it seems as though VM would have used Quirrell to get the piece of the soul from the mirror and reunite it with Vapour VM.
I wonder how TR would have helped V. I think maybe V would not have had to make a body, but could have used Riddle's body. Would that body have been stronger? Since Riddle got a body by feeding on Ginny, maybe V's soul would somehow be stronger. I just realized something: we witnessed one possible way of making a body back from a Horcrux. I wonder if Voldemort knew it would do that and what the plan was. Maybe that diary was not meant to be just a Horcrux, but was really meant to create a second Voldy in the flesh for some reason? It fits with all this mirroring going on all over the place.



Last edited by MagicLantern; April 8th, 2006 at 4:59 pm.
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Old April 8th, 2006, 7:21 pm
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
What's interesting is that over and over we've had hints of unsupervised ways of getting inside Hogwarts. For example, 1) the Floo network. I think Sirius could have actually walked into the Gryffindor common room if he chose (he wanted to come "over there" when he heard Snape was not giving Harry Occlumency lessons any more; Harry was speaking from Umbridge's office). 2) the underground passages; Harry takes one into Hogsmeade, and no protective spells keep him from going back and forth (in fact, nothing keeps Sirius from doing the same in the third book).

Another one that enters my mind is Harry and Ron just being able to fly the car onto Hogwarts grounds. It seems with all the protections they shouldn't have been able to.


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Old April 8th, 2006, 9:56 pm
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevillesgal
Another one that enters my mind is Harry and Ron just being able to fly the car onto Hogwarts grounds. It seems with all the protections they shouldn't have been able to.
I think they must have increased security after Voldemort came back. When DD tries to convince Slughorn to come to Hogwarts, he mentions something about the increased security. I wonder if that invisible barrier that DD had to undo when he and Harry flew to the tower in HBP was not there before LV returned. The only thing Hermione mentions all the time is that you can't apparate onto Hogwarts grounds.


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Old April 9th, 2006, 2:19 am
WeasleDiva  Female.gif WeasleDiva is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

I agree with the notion that Voldemort knew all about the vanishing cabinets. That is probably why he assigned Draco to use these devices to infiltrate Hogwarts. Draco, thinking up this grand cabinet idea, must have pleased Voldy.

Voldy chose Borgin and Burkes for employment because he would have access to Hogwarts, which is probably the only place he ever felt "home."

I disagree with the mirror as the horcrux though. I think the horcrux hidden at Hogwarts is the reward for special services to the school that Tom Riddle received "for killing Moaning Myrtle."

Riddle, known for his trophy-magpie ways, would want to make his Hogwarts trophy have significane.


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Old April 9th, 2006, 3:28 am
bribe
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

I agree with you in saying that the Mirror of Erised is a Horcrux. I am certain there is a horcrux at Hogwarts and this mirror is clearly a powerful magical artifact. I had not thought of the possibility that Voldemort had used the vanishing cabinets as a gateway into Hogwarts but, now that you have mentioned it, it does seem an easy and logical method for him to have used to achieve a secret penetration of the castle's defenses.


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Old April 9th, 2006, 4:17 am
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasleDiva
Riddle, known for his trophy-magpie ways, would want to make his Hogwarts trophy have significane.
The reason the trophy doesn't work for me (although I realize it's one of Riddle's "achievements") is that it is not a magical object (unless Riddle added some magic to it that it didn't have to begin with); like bribe says above, the mirror has powers (besides magical history & personal significance for Voldy).

We know that the locket and the cup had many untapped magical powers (from what Hepzibah Smith said), and can assume the same about the ring, since it made a pair with the locket. Dumbledore says "he preferred objects with a powerful magical history"; not just history, but powerful history. Nagini has power also, as Voldemort can use her (he fed on her milk, used her as a look-out in Riddle's mansion -- he can talk to her, and control her --, inspected the MoM, and attacked Weasley with her; who knows what else she can do). Being a big snake, she commemorates the basilisk and is a symbol of Slytherin. I tend to think both ingredients need to be present for an object/being to be appealing to Voldemort: some kind of power and history/mystique/symbolism.

The diary is rather new to the scene, but not so new: it commemorates Voldy's opening of the Chamber, and thus is also a reminder of ancient history i.e. of Slytherin's desire to purge the school; in addition, the diary has powers: the soul piece can speak parsel tongue and open the Chamber again, possess people and even acquire a body. The diary seems to me the real trophy Riddle awarded himself for those "special services to the school," and it stands in ironic opposition to the magicless, harmless piece of metal the school gave him for supposingly "saving" the children. We have one deed, and two trophies. The diary is the Horcrux because it commemorates the authentic deed, not its false appearance. Does Voldemort think much of the metal trophy that commemorates a Mudblood lover image of him? Voldemort likes trophies, but I am not sure he likes trophies that "he is given" for deeds he doesn't like to do (stopping the attacks). I think he likes trophies that "he takes" whenever it pleases him and for whatever reason he chooses (like the trophy toys in Dumbledore's memory).



Last edited by MagicLantern; April 9th, 2006 at 4:45 am.
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Old April 11th, 2006, 7:50 pm
mollysClock  Undisclosed.gif mollysClock is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
This article gave me the hope that Hogwarts will still be a place Harry must still be involved with.
I fee the same way. Book 7 must have Harry at Hogwarts!

I believe the MoE will be of vital importance in the 7th book, either as a Horcrux or a way for Harry to achieve information to defeat Voldy (his heart's desire). But my son has said that Harry won't be able to get into Hogwarts without being a student because of all the secruity. Well, this article and these threads have given me proof that Harry will be able to enter Hogwarts and that Hogwarts will be very important in the last book.

Hurry JK! I can't wait!


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Old April 12th, 2006, 8:22 pm
mo1  Female.gif mo1 is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Hi Daniela ! Glad to see you back.

Your editorial was interesting even if I don't think there is a need for making a horcrux immediately after a murder. If there were, there would be a very big time problem with the first one.

You make a very good point with Dumbledore's overconfidence meaning danger. You have convinced me there must be something with the Mirror of Erised (a horcrux or something else). It might be very significant that Dumbledore's sentence about "one of his more brillant ideas" was kept in the movie.

However I disagree with you about the possibility that Voldemort was in the urge to kill Dumbledore because of Slughorn : Voldemort gave Draco his mission before Dumbledore and Harry convinced Slughorn to come back to Hogwarts. (even if I can't help thinking about the 6 months that are needed to prepare Felix Felicis...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
The reason the trophy doesn't work for me (although I realize it's one of Riddle's "achievements") is that it is not a magical object (unless Riddle added some magic to it that it didn't have to begin with); like bribe says above, the mirror has powers (besides magical history & personal significance for Voldy).
As a matter of fact, there are 3 things in the trophy room which have Tom Riddle's name on it, when there should be only two :
the "list of old Head Boys" (no problem),
"Riddle's burnished gold shield" and "an old Medal for Magical Merit" (CoS, The very secret diary).
Two rewards. Dumbledore and the Riddle in the diary both talk about only one.
That's why I think one of those rewards may be a horcrux.
A shield is a nice counterpart for a sword. What if that gold shield is Gryffindor's ? Voldemort would be able to transfigure it so that it look like a reward of his. It would be very ironic (and very symbolical) to put is name on Godric Gryffindor's shield and to leave it hidden in the light right under Dumbledore's nose.
And if it were Gryffindor's, it would be a magicaly powerful heirloom.


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Old April 13th, 2006, 5:44 am
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo1
However I disagree with you about the possibility that Voldemort was in the urge to kill Dumbledore because of Slughorn : Voldemort gave Draco his mission before Dumbledore and Harry convinced Slughorn to come back to Hogwarts. (even if I can't help thinking about the 6 months that are needed to prepare Felix Felicis...)
I overlooked that. Although, I wonder when Dumbledore decided to hire Slughorn. Did he let Snape know? The way the story is narrated, it does seem that the episode at Snape's house takes place before Dumbledore asks Slughorn to come back. Maybe there is no meaning to Voldemort's timing; or it's something else; or he knew from Snape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo1
As a matter of fact, there are 3 things in the trophy room which have Tom Riddle's name on it, when there should be only two :
the "list of old Head Boys" (no problem),
"Riddle's burnished gold shield" and "an old Medal for Magical Merit" (CoS, The very secret diary).
Two rewards. Dumbledore and the Riddle in the diary both talk about only one.
That's why I think one of those rewards may be a horcrux.
A shield is a nice counterpart for a sword. What if that gold shield is Gryffindor's ? Voldemort would be able to transfigure it so that it look like a reward of his. It would be very ironic (and very symbolical) to put is name on Godric Gryffindor's shield and to leave it hidden in the light right under Dumbledore's nose.
And if it were Gryffindor's, it would be a magicaly powerful heirloom.
Oooh... I missed that. I like that idea. It's the best competitor I've seen so far for the mirror. I'll have to go back and read that passage. It goes so well with Gryffindor's sword that you really got me thinking. I like the shield being Riddle's as it seems to be, since I think of Slytherins as wanting to defend their skins (hence the shield) while Gryffindors go into battle to fight (hence the sword).



Last edited by MagicLantern; April 13th, 2006 at 5:48 am.
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Old April 13th, 2006, 5:11 pm
mo1  Female.gif mo1 is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
Although, I wonder when Dumbledore decided to hire Slughorn. Did he let Snape know? The way the story is narrated, it does seem that the episode at Snape's house takes place before Dumbledore asks Slughorn to come back. Maybe there is no meaning to Voldemort's timing; or it's something else; or he knew from Snape?
Why would he be so bitter in Spinner's End about the fact Dumbledore didn't have given him the DADA job, then ? He would have no need to lie to Bellatrix and Narcissa about that if he had told Voldemort about it, would he?


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Old April 13th, 2006, 5:19 pm
chainsword  Undisclosed.gif chainsword is offline
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Re: Two-Way Mirror #29 - The Vanishing Cabinet: An Old Plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
The diary is rather new to the scene, but not so new: it commemorates Voldy's opening of the Chamber, and thus is also a reminder of ancient history i.e. of Slytherin's desire to purge the school; in addition, the diary has powers: the soul piece can speak parsel tongue and open the Chamber again, possess people and even acquire a body. The diary seems to me the real trophy Riddle awarded himself for those "special services to the school," and it stands in ironic opposition to the magicless, harmless piece of metal the school gave him for supposingly "saving" the children.
Actually, of all the horocruxes Voldemort made, the diary is the only one that didn't have to be magical or have a magical history (powerful or not). This is supposed to be his first horocrux, so this was a test. It was a way of him to see if he could do a horocrux or not. I think that the magical powers of the diary come after it was made into a horucrux, not because of it. The next horocruxes were made of objects with powerful magical history but not the first. Was Voldemort really take the chance of runing a magical object with a significant history in his first horocrux? what if the spell didn't work? Could the object be used to make another?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
I like the shield being Riddle's as it seems to be, since I think of Slytherins as wanting to defend their skins (hence the shield) while Gryffindors go into battle to fight (hence the sword).
The shield is part of a knight's vest, as is the sword. Slytherins don't seam very knighty. They seam more oportinists kind of people. They use what they have into their own advantage (Malfoy using the diary to implicate the Weasel (sp?) into the CoS thing than to help Voldemort). I don't see a Slytherin using a shield to protect himself in a battle but rather using the battle to gain power and/or influence. If we're using the D&D characters I would say that Slytherin are more of the Rogue type and Gryphindor of Warrior or Paladin type, and Rogues don't really use shields.


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