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All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2



 
 
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  #81  
Old December 14th, 2006, 5:44 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

That is one of the best theories I've read! It makes so much sense. I also wondered about the draught of living death potion that has been brought up a couple of times in the series but never made the connection with the water in the cave scene. Excellent!


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  #82  
Old December 14th, 2006, 7:06 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by Layla View Post
That's an excellent theory... Had I been DD, I would definitely prefer death to becoming an Inferi.
That's what I thought as well, I figured that Snape probably saw him up on the tower suffering from the aftereffects of both the potion and the tainted water and that's what caused the revulsion and rage on his face...


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  #83  
Old December 19th, 2006, 12:23 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

The way it appeared to me was that the potion had to of been completely drunk for the locket to appear. Otherwise why not just conjure up a large enough goblet to hold the entire potion. The reason I say this is because Harry scraped the bottom of the basin with his last gobletful of potion. If the locket were to appear by simply removing the potion with a goblet, then it would only be logical that Harry would've noticed the locket appear. And if that was the case I doubt he would've immediately forced the potion down Dumbledore's throat as he did.

I think if it was me I'd try chucking the potion into the lake before drinking it, in the off chance that Voldemort made a mistake. But Dumbledore bypasses the obvious when he's certain that isn't the case. For example, Dumbledore didn't attempt a summoning charm which is an obvious way of getting the horcrux. We see that it didn't matter when Harry tries it. Dumbledore already knew that Voldemort would be clever enough to safeguard against such an obvious cheat of bypassing his magical protection of the horcrux. So in short, if the only way you can get the potion out of the basin is with a goblet, then you can be sure that you're indeed going to have to drink the potion. Because, Voldemort doesn't allow you to get around his magical enchantments by cheating.


  #84  
Old December 19th, 2006, 12:30 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

The water is not what turns you into an inferi, a wizard has to cast a spell for that, however, by touching the water, you wake the inferi in the lake and they start to attack.


  #85  
Old December 19th, 2006, 12:37 am
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Re: draught of death instead of lake water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoGryffindor View Post
it is possible that when DD was sliding down the wall on top of the tower, he was actually falling into a deep, death-like sleep! i have no idea how this goes on to figure with snape's cursing him (or possibly uttering a verbal curse while at the same time issuing a nonverbal to counteract, etc., etc.); DD's flying off the tower (or possibly being caught and lowered by fawkes) and DD's death (or not, if he's not dead). but it certainly opens interesting possibilities. (i for one think DD is not dead, but that is not for this post.)

thanks for reading and discussing!!
The sleeping part would fit in with a parallel between Merlin and DD suggested in another thread. I believe Merlin is or was said to be sleeping until England needed him or something.


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  #86  
Old December 19th, 2006, 6:13 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I don't know if anyone has suggested this but...

What if the potion was a horcrux? What if it suddenly dawned on Dumbledore that a piece of Voldemort's soul now lived in him and the only thing that could get rid of it is if he died?


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  #87  
Old December 19th, 2006, 8:42 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin Juice View Post
I don't know if anyone has suggested this but...

What if the potion was a horcrux? What if it suddenly dawned on Dumbledore that a piece of Voldemort's soul now lived in him and the only thing that could get rid of it is if he died?
WOW! amazing idea.... but i would assume that a segment of voldemorts soul wouldnt be able to be contained in liquid?... but perhaps it got passed through the ring! thats why his hand was blackend???????......


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  #88  
Old December 20th, 2006, 11:48 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

It's crude, but my theory is that in order to get the horcrux you had to drink the entire potion in the basin. And by drinking the potion, it caused you to relive what Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop went through as children in the cave with Voldemort. Here is the text from the book that causes me to believe that Dumbledore is reliving these awful memories.
HBP, The Cave
Dumbledore did not answer. His face was twitching as though he were deeply asleep, but dreaming a horrible dream.

This was halfway through drinking the fourth goblet of potion. This makes it appear as if Dumbledore is entering into someone else's experience, or something other than what is actually happening in that moment. Further evidence is the way that Dumbledore acts while drinking the potion. The frightened look and what he's saying are out of character for him, which illustrates that he's in someone else's experience. Harry is disturbed because he's never heard Dumbledore so frightened. I'll post the text of everything Dumbledore said in a frightened voice. To me it sounds like a child being bullied.

HBP, The Cave
'I don't want... don't make me...'

snip

'... don't like... want to stop...'

snip

'No...'

snip

'I don't want to... I don't want to... let me go...'

snip

'Make it stop, make it stop,'

snip

'No, no, no... no... I can't... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to...'

snip

'It's all my fault, all my fault,' he sobbed, 'please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh,
please make it stop and I'll never, never again...'

snip

'Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead...'

snip

'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything...'

snip

'No more, please, no more...'

snip

'I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!'

snip

'KILL ME!'


It defiantly sounds to me like Dumbldore is being forced to relive an experience and he's articulating his pleading as a child would. It's unknown exactly what happened to young Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop in that cave. But we do know that torturing them that day was significant to Voldemort or he wouldn't have used the cave to hide a horcrux. We also know that Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop weren't quite right after their experience in the cave.


  #89  
Old December 21st, 2006, 9:54 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrefectRon View Post
It's crude, but my theory is that in order to get the horcrux you had to drink the entire potion in the basin. And by drinking the potion, it caused you to relive what Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop went through as children in the cave with Voldemort. Here is the text from the book that causes me to believe that Dumbledore is reliving these awful memories.
HBP, The Cave
Dumbledore did not answer. His face was twitching as though he were deeply asleep, but dreaming a horrible dream.

This was halfway through drinking the fourth goblet of potion. This makes it appear as if Dumbledore is entering into someone else's experience, or something other than what is actually happening in that moment. Further evidence is the way that Dumbledore acts while drinking the potion. The frightened look and what he's saying are out of character for him, which illustrates that he's in someone else's experience. Harry is disturbed because he's never heard Dumbledore so frightened. I'll post the text of everything Dumbledore said in a frightened voice. To me it sounds like a child being bullied.

HBP, The Cave
'I don't want... don't make me...'

snip

'... don't like... want to stop...'

snip

'No...'

snip

'I don't want to... I don't want to... let me go...'

snip

'Make it stop, make it stop,'

snip

'No, no, no... no... I can't... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to...'

snip

'It's all my fault, all my fault,' he sobbed, 'please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh,
please make it stop and I'll never, never again...'

snip

'Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead...'

snip

'Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything...'

snip

'No more, please, no more...'

snip

'I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!'

snip

'KILL ME!'


It defiantly sounds to me like Dumbldore is being forced to relive an experience and he's articulating his pleading as a child would. It's unknown exactly what happened to young Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop in that cave. But we do know that torturing them that day was significant to Voldemort or he wouldn't have used the cave to hide a horcrux. We also know that Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop weren't quite right after their experience in the cave.
Nice theory - It makes sense...


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  #90  
Old December 21st, 2006, 11:33 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by First post previous version
I mean, if he was able to lift the potion out of the basin with the cup, why didn't he just throw it aside instead of drinking it?
Seeing Dumbledore acting unhinged (more than usual) Gave me the heebie-jeebies
that is exactly what I have been thinking from the beginning! How else would RAB have been able to do the task, unless of course he had help.


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  #91  
Old December 22nd, 2006, 8:23 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by crookshanks15 View Post
that is exactly what I have been thinking from the beginning! How else would RAB have been able to do the task, unless of course he had help.
I'm of the thinking that R.A.B. is Regulus Black. So I just figured he summoned Kreacher and had him drink it. After all, isn't that what house elves are for?


  #92  
Old December 22nd, 2006, 11:48 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by PrefectRon View Post
I'm of the thinking that R.A.B. is Regulus Black. So I just figured he summoned Kreacher and had him drink it. After all, isn't that what house elves are for?
That does seem like a possibility, but then what would happen to Kreacher? Dumbledore had MUCH more magic in him than Kreacher, and drinking the potion basically destroyed him. So what would the results on Kreacher be? I would think Kreacher would die.


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  #93  
Old December 23rd, 2006, 12:15 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by padfootandme View Post
That does seem like a possibility, but then what would happen to Kreacher? Dumbledore had MUCH more magic in him than Kreacher, and drinking the potion basically destroyed him. So what would the results on Kreacher be? I would think Kreacher would die.
I'm not sure that he would. In HBP do you remember the part where Slughorn assures Harry and Hagrid that the wine he brought hasn't been poisoned. He says he had a house elf test them first. That either means that house elves have a higher tolerance for poison intake or Slughorn just figured it would be no loss if one died.

I'm sure Kreacher would do anything for his master. This would also be helpful for Harry because Kreacher may know the importance of that locket and made sure it was one of the items that didn't get tossed out while cleaning. That means getting the locket may be a simple as asking Kreacher for it. Of course Kreacher will have to obey his new master, Harry.


  #94  
Old December 27th, 2006, 6:25 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I just had a thought. What if RAB left the potion there for Voldemort to drink to force him to experience what the kids experienced who he brought into that cave so long ago and what Dumbledore experienced were their memories? The potion was meant to force humanity into Voldemort.


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  #95  
Old December 27th, 2006, 7:39 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

There are too many things to consider about the potion that DD drank that it's impossible to deduce correctly because JKR didnt leave enough clues (or is it because we just can't see them?)
1. Can the basic refill itself?
2. Can houseelves be summoned to the cave? Or does the cave has a particular magic to block the houseelves from apparating inside? ( I think JKR dropped a clue here, there's been lots of times in HBP where Ron and Harry keep suggesting that the people apparate to Hogwarts but Hermoine said nobody can apparate or disapparate so Voldermort maybe using the same old spell that whoever used to make it impossible for people to apparate inside hogwarts but still it's only an assumption.)
3. The boat, does the boat go back into hiding after the person has finished riding or does the person need to conjure a spell? The boat was hiding when DD and harry reached the cave, so did R.A.B hid the boat? (yet another impossible thing again because DD said something along these lines "I taught Tom and I know his style" so it must be Tom doing the spell to make the boat hide but the thing is that after Harry and DD get out of the boat, she didnt mention anything about the boat going back into hiding)
3. R.A.B, who is R.A.B? Regulus Black? but how powerful is he to get past all the obstacles set by Voldermort?)
4. The trophy in the basin, did R.A.B really leave it there? (seems impossible too...R.A.B going to hunt Voldy's horcrux carrying a fake trophy and a note when he didn't even know what he is facing (or did he know what he is going to face?))

So all in all, it really didnt leave enough clues for us to guess. THe Draught of Living Death seems highly possible since it's been mentioned a few times but can Voldermort ACTUALLY have enough of that potion to filled finish that entire big lake? Where can he get neough ingredients? So I don't think that theory is true. and DD seems pretty foolish not to try and get a houseelve in here to drink that potion


  #96  
Old December 27th, 2006, 12:26 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
There are too many things to consider about the potion that DD drank that it's impossible to deduce correctly because JKR didnt leave enough clues (or is it because we just can't see them?)
1. Can the basic refill itself?
2. Can houseelves be summoned to the cave? Or does the cave has a particular magic to block the houseelves from apparating inside? ( I think JKR dropped a clue here, there's been lots of times in HBP where Ron and Harry keep suggesting that the people apparate to Hogwarts but Hermoine said nobody can apparate or disapparate so Voldermort maybe using the same old spell that whoever used to make it impossible for people to apparate inside hogwarts but still it's only an assumption.)
3. The boat, does the boat go back into hiding after the person has finished riding or does the person need to conjure a spell? The boat was hiding when DD and harry reached the cave, so did R.A.B hid the boat? (yet another impossible thing again because DD said something along these lines "I taught Tom and I know his style" so it must be Tom doing the spell to make the boat hide but the thing is that after Harry and DD get out of the boat, she didnt mention anything about the boat going back into hiding)
3. R.A.B, who is R.A.B? Regulus Black? but how powerful is he to get past all the obstacles set by Voldermort?)
4. The trophy in the basin, did R.A.B really leave it there? (seems impossible too...R.A.B going to hunt Voldy's horcrux carrying a fake trophy and a note when he didn't even know what he is facing (or did he know what he is going to face?))

So all in all, it really didnt leave enough clues for us to guess. THe Draught of Living Death seems highly possible since it's been mentioned a few times but can Voldermort ACTUALLY have enough of that potion to filled finish that entire big lake? Where can he get neough ingredients? So I don't think that theory is true. and DD seems pretty foolish not to try and get a houseelve in here to drink that potion
We'd have to assume the basin does refill everytime it's empties since this is exactly what happened after RAB took the authentic locket... with all due respects to RAB, I doubt very much he is smarter than Dumbledore and if DD couldn't figure out a way of emptying the basin except by drinking it, then RAB must have drunk (or had someone else drink) the potion.


  #97  
Old December 28th, 2006, 2:10 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by PrefectRon View Post
I'm of the thinking that R.A.B. is Regulus Black. So I just figured he summoned Kreacher and had him drink it. After all, isn't that what house elves are for?
maybe thats an explanation or why Kreacher is a tad crazy... it isnt because he has been locked up all those years its because that was the result of the liquid!


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  #98  
Old December 28th, 2006, 3:45 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I have always thought that the potion Dumbledore drank caused him to experience of the suffering the two orphans Voldy tortured endured. I don't think that R.A.B necessarily put those memories in the potion because Voldemort may have had another way of getting to the horcrux or he may have had immunity to the potion. I doubt that R.A.B would have been able to put those memories in the potion as he wasn't present when the orphans were tortured. It's a good thing to note that Voldy couldn't be killed by the potion due to his horcruxes, but if that were the limit of his immunity he would still have to suffer by drinking it, unless one would have to have a full soul to feel that kind of suffering. If that were the case, then we know that Dumbledore really hasn't commited murder, and that theory about him having powerful magic that can defeat a wizard and not kill him may have something to it.

Now that I think on it, R.A.B would HAVE to have someone else there. If Dumbledore couldn't drink all the potion on his own, I don't think any other wizard could. The person with R.A.B would HAVE to have drank it because R.A.B wouldn't have been in the condition to write that message if he had. UNLESS R.A.B was the one who put that potion in there... So many questions....

Another thing to consider is RAB's letter. He assumes that he's going to die. Either this is because he betrayed Voldy and the Death eaters and assumes they will kill him or because he had to drink the potion when he obtained the horcrux. The second possibility makes no sense, as when Dumbledore drank the potion he was DEFINITELY in no condition to write a letter or think sanely. This presents a third possibility: the potion that was in the basin originally caused a slow death, but it didn't cause the drinker to relive the suffering of Voldy's victims and therefore didn't render the drinker in quite the same condition as Dumbledore. Maybe RAB added this feature to the potion, as someone stated earlier, to cause Voldy suffering. Voldy, being immortal, would be immune to a potion that just caused death if he needed to get to the locket, but he wouldn't be immune to that kind of suffering, as far as we know.



Last edited by sorting_socks; December 28th, 2006 at 3:57 am. Reason: More food for thought
  #99  
Old December 30th, 2006, 12:59 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Since my last post I'm come to some revelations surrounding the potion in the basin.

I am convinced that R.A.B was the one who put the potion there.

There are many reasons that I believe this to be true. The other night my cousin and I re-read the scene that Dumbledore and Harry went to the cave to obtain the horcrux and we analyzed what happened thoroughly. At first I was slow to accept the theory that R.A.B was responsible for the potion, but now I have a lot of reasons why I do.

1) R.A.B wouldn't have been in the condition to drink the whole potion on his own, let alone get out of that cave alive if the potion was there when he obtained the horcrux.
2) Voldemort needed to make it so that he could get to the horcrux himself. If he really needed to get to his horcrux, having a death-causing potion as a barrier would make sense as Voldemort is immortal. However, he wouldn't be immune to the suffering that the potion causes. Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that the potion causes the drinker to relive the suffering of the kids Voldemort tortured as an orphan. Someone had a good theory that RAB put the potion there to teach Voldy a lesson and feel the suffering he has caused.
3) When Harry attempts to summon the horcrux by saying "Accio Horcrux," an inferi pops up out of the water, but then, it simply goes back into the water. When Harry and Dumbledore find the boat to get across, Harry asks Dumbledore if the inferi will let them across. Dumbledore says that they haven't realized that they aren't Voldemort yet. How can this be if Harry just tried to summon the horcrux? Voldemort wouldn't try that. Why didn't the creature attack Harry when he did that? I theorize that R.A.B used magic so that the Inferi wouldn't harm him. One detail Jo includes after the inferi rises out of the water, but creates a splash upon going back in is that the ripples stopped abnormally quickly. I wonder if this has anything to do with subduing magic R.A.B might have used.
4) I think that R.A.B subdued the Inferi, and planned that Voldemort would get to the potion, drink it, only to feel the torment of his victims, then be desperate for water and trigger the very monsters he used as a guard for his horcrux. It would be quite the nasty surprise to spring on Voldy after he was confident he could get out easily with the locket.

We know that the boat Dumbledore finds was made by Voldy, Dumbledore comments that he can find the boat because he knows Voldy's style of magic, as he was the one who taught him. I tend to think Dumbledore's usually right, so I'm pretty sure that boat was made and hidden by Voldy. What doesn't make much sense is that the worst of the defense mechanisms of the cave aren't sprung untill AFTER you get the horcrux. Shouldn't it be the other way around? It's almost as if the traps at the end are for Voldemort, not by him.

Finally, we all know one of Voldemorts greatest fears (besides death). In GoF Voldemort is described as having a look of horror on his face when the spirits of his deceased victims are coming from the tip of his wand. Voldemort, like all tyrants whom abuse the people they wish to control, fears the very people he oppresses. What would be more nightmarish for him than to be forced to feel the suffering that he has caused?

These details might not seem relevant at first, but it proves that R.A.B had a lot of knowledge about Voldemort. He not only knew of at least one of the horcruxes and its location, but he also knew how to hit Voldy where it mattered. Another thing it shows us is that R.A.B didn't just want Voldy to die, but he also wanted him to pay for the suffering he caused. Whoever R.A.B was, he wanted Voldy to feel some of the agony he was responsible for. This gives us some clues about the identity of R.A.B, and the nature of his opposition to Voldy.


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  #100  
Old December 30th, 2006, 6:18 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I haven't read all the pages yet but however plausible this theory is JK definately confirmed that DD is dead. Unless 'living dead' is in another catergory then this theory can't be true.


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