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Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series



 
 
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  #161  
Old April 13th, 2007, 7:53 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proud_Slytherin View Post
Well, I mean, minors can't go to bars. That i know it is still the same way.
Minors cannot buy alcohol either.

But at least, within the family, minors can drink.
Most bars where I am wont let kids(under 18) in after 9pm


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  #162  
Old April 13th, 2007, 8:06 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladylink View Post
what's shandy?
It's either lager or bitter mixed with lemonade in varying quantities. It is sweeter than beer, with a lower alcohol content. Shandy in a pub would normally be half-and-half beer/lemonade. A can of shandy for kids is mostly lemonade with a tiny (0.3%) amount of alcohol.


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  #163  
Old April 13th, 2007, 9:17 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrefectRon View Post
Then there is Dumbledore who was the most highly respected wizard in the entire story. Yet at the beginning of HBP we see him trying to force an underage Dudley to drink Mead. Dumbledore clearly didn't have the consent of the parents but that didn't stop him from magically enchanting the glass to bang against Dudley's head until he took the glass and drank the Mead. I mean c'mon, talk about peer pressure to drink.
Dudley, at the age of 16, wasn't underage since he was offered the drink in his own home by an adult. The legal drinking age in those circumstances would actually be 5.

Quote:
And let's not forget about how the hero of the story Harry Potter uses alcohol to take advantage of people. Harry pulls off some impressive magic to keep refilling the wine until the point where he gets Professor Slughorn so drunk that Harry is able to manipulate Slughorn into sharing memories. Something Slughorn would never do when sober. Yet Harry is given praise for getting his teacher so drunk he won't be able to remember what happened. All that mattered was that Harry got the memory he was after.
I think ridding the world of Voldemort takes precedence over getting two teachers drunk for information that would help to do that. If Harry had done it to get out of a detention or for financial gain, then there might be something to complain about.


  #164  
Old April 13th, 2007, 9:28 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

I am not bothered by the refrences to alcohol in the books at all. Rowling for one is not North American, and the whole underage-drinking thing is a taboo that doesn't really have much sway anywhere else in the world. And even then the Wizarding World isn't going to live by muggle rules... They start teaching these kids to transifgure objects, charm people, duel, and brew potions like Draught of Living Death at age 11, so I can't imagine anyone is too worried about the effects of 2 butter beers a month at age 13 or a little mead at 16....


  #165  
Old April 14th, 2007, 2:22 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

"yeah, exactly. But remember, not everyone does that."

Of course, not everyone does that. But then again, it is not the ones who dont have a "taboo" approach of drinking who will raise a stink about alcohol behing present in the Potter books... ; )
So, of course, I was only talking about the kind of people who have a "taboo/non-healthy" (IMO) relationship with alcoholic based beverages and mentionning that they are more frequently encountered on the new continent then they are on the old one.

"And even then the Wizarding World isn't going to live by muggle rules... They start teaching these kids to transifgure objects, charm people, duel, and brew potions like Draught of Living Death at age 11, so I can't imagine anyone is too worried about the effects of 2 butter beers a month at age 13 or a little mead at 16...."


You made an _ extremely_ pertinent point here, IMO.

CW



Last edited by CatWitch; April 14th, 2007 at 2:26 am.
  #166  
Old May 4th, 2007, 3:25 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Lets face it, alcohol has been a part of human culture since the first time a cave man found out that if you leave a bunch of crushed grapes in a container for a while, you may get a drink that makes your friends act very strange. Every society deals with alcohol in different ways. Even if you try to completely ban it, it still doesn't go away. As long as Harry doesn't go off on a drunken rampage, we just have to accept that alcohol plays a role in wizard society.


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  #167  
Old May 4th, 2007, 3:52 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

In most cases, the idea of censorship in the arts seems ridiculous to me. Children are going to find about alcohol; there's no denying that. The only thing that we accomplish by trying to hide it is adding mystique to it, and therefore adding attraction to it. An open policy is better in 99 cases out of 100.

So, I think it's silly to be up-in-arms about JK mentioning alcohol in Harry Potter.


  #168  
Old May 4th, 2007, 12:04 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Exactly. Plus, butterbeer is non alchoholic.

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  #169  
Old May 4th, 2007, 1:58 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Exactly. Plus, butterbeer is non alchoholic.
But then why did Harry say that he'll wait and see what happenson Slughorn's party under the influence of Butterbeer?


  #170  
Old May 4th, 2007, 2:17 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Exactly. Plus, butterbeer is non alchoholic.

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Are you forgetting what happens to house elves? It must have a small amount, like sangria.


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  #171  
Old May 4th, 2007, 2:59 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

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Originally Posted by mcorleone View Post
Are you forgetting what happens to house elves? It must have a small amount, like sangria.
Not necessarily. It may not have any, but just has that certain affect on house elves. They may get "drunk" on something other than alchol. They are made differently from humans (wizard or muggle).


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  #172  
Old May 4th, 2007, 4:16 pm
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

In France wine is drunk by anyone over the age of 4 or 5, as is my understanding, with meals. I think that it is better to have alcohol in view of children, because, as someone said, keeping children and alcohol away from each other adds a sense of mystery to the alcohol, which means that it is more attractive to the child. Some people would argue that the scene in HBP where Slughorn and Hagrid get drunk is a bad influence on children because it is seen as humerous, so children may think "that looks good, I'll try that"...but it won't on most children, and I hate to be judgemental, but I think that the children that alcohol would appeal to in this way (sorry that was really bad grammar there I think) are those who wouldn't be interested in Harry Potter...


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  #173  
Old May 6th, 2007, 2:07 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Thought someone might find this interesting.

Click "Table 10: Heavy episodic drinkers among youths (per country)" at the bottom so the statistics are broken down by country.


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  #174  
Old May 6th, 2007, 2:39 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladylink View Post
what's shandy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sholeigh View Post
It's either lager or bitter mixed with lemonade in varying quantities. It is sweeter than beer, with a lower alcohol content. Shandy in a pub would normally be half-and-half beer/lemonade. A can of shandy for kids is mostly lemonade with a tiny (0.3%) amount of alcohol.
Lemonade is something like 7up, Sprite, Sierra Mist -a carbonated beverage in this instance not a still lemonade made of lemons and sugar water which is traditional in the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandra View Post
In most cases, the idea of censorship in the arts seems ridiculous to me. Children are going to find about alcohol; there's no denying that. The only thing that we accomplish by trying to hide it is adding mystique to it, and therefore adding attraction to it. An open policy is better in 99 cases out of 100.

So, I think it's silly to be up-in-arms about JK mentioning alcohol in Harry Potter.
Totally agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Exactly. Plus, butterbeer is non alchoholic.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
But then why did Harry say that he'll wait and see what happenson Slughorn's party under the influence of Butterbeer?
Because a relaxed atmosphere, a soothing drink with maybe sugar and caffeine can have similar effects on people. Ever rambled on and on when you have been on a caffeine high?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDaysAhead View Post
Thought someone might find this interesting.

Click "Table 10: Heavy episodic drinkers among youths (per country)" at the bottom so the statistics are broken down by country.
Well I find it interesting but also I think it is a lie. Children in the USA are afraid of their parents finding out they have had a drink at party no matter how confidential the poll is supposed to be. My children have spent many years in European culture and partaking of European culture with the odd sip of wine here and there... they recently took part in a poll at a US school asking if they had EVER had a drink - it didn't ask the circumstances so they answered truthfully. So now the school will think there is a problem when they were actually behaving within the law of the land they resided.

Also I went to High School and University in the USA and I knew quite a percentage of drunks (and even more I later learnt) at both places on (thursday at University) Friday and Saturday nights the parties were in full flow. They would then on Sunday morning always be at their ultra conservative non drinking place of worship. I don't think that was anything exceptional truthfully.


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  #175  
Old May 6th, 2007, 2:49 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

The legal age to drink is 18 but anyone 10 years or older can drink alcohol. Butterbeer dosn't have alcohal. It's like Rootbeer


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  #176  
Old May 6th, 2007, 2:58 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverIsis View Post
Well I find it interesting but also I think it is a lie. Children in the USA are afraid of their parents finding out they have had a drink at party no matter how confidential the poll is supposed to be. My children have spent many years in European culture and partaking of European culture with the odd sip of wine here and there... they recently took part in a poll at a US school asking if they had EVER had a drink - it didn't ask the circumstances so they answered truthfully. So now the school will think there is a problem when they were actually behaving within the law of the land they resided.

Also I went to High School and University in the USA and I knew quite a percentage of drunks (and even more I later learnt) at both places on (thursday at University) Friday and Saturday nights the parties were in full flow. They would then on Sunday morning always be at their ultra conservative non drinking place of worship. I don't think that was anything exceptional truthfully.
The poll didn't show how many children who "had ever had a drink", it showed how many were heavy episodic drinkers. It can't be called a "lie" because it reflects the fact that almost every country contains kids who get drunk underage/at young ages.

Of course, lying makes it imperfect but hardly a lie because it reflects something other than what was expected.

GreenFacts.orgThe GreenFacts Organization

GreenFacts is an "a.s.b.l.", a Belgian non-profit organization, created in December 2001 by individuals from different backgrounds, with the aim to bring complex scientific reports on health and the environment to the reach of non-specialists. More...


GreenFacts was founded in 2001 by individuals from different environment and health backgrounds, which shared two common concerns:
  • They thought that reliable scientific information should be the basis for constructive debates between stakeholder and for informed decisions on health and environment issues.
  • They realized that the scientific information available on these issues is often unreliable, because it is usually provided,
  • either by stakeholder organizations (businesses, NGOs...), which tend to defend their own financial or political interests,
  • or by individual experts, which are often tempted to put forward their own personal views.
The founders agreed that the current state of scientific knowledge on these issues is best provided by scientific consensus reports, produced by large panels of scientific experts under the authority of international organizations, such as WHO, FAO, IARC, UNEP, and the European Commission.

However, these reports are usually difficult to find, and hard to read because they are long, complex, and written in expert jargon. To be understood by non-specialists, they need to be summarized, faithfully and in plain language.

To ensure that these reports would be communicated in an impartial manner, the founders created GreenFacts as a truly independent non-profit organization with a multi-stakeholder governance, whose publications would be controlled by an independent Scientific Board.

Two of the founders were employees of the SOLVAY Group and obtained from their management the initial funding for the creation of GreenFacts. SOLVAY committed to support us for three years, a period after which we would have acquired sufficient recognition to diversify our income sources.



Doesn't quite strike me as a shady organization...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole View Post
Does anyone feel that the alcohol references could have been removed completely, or are you not concerned about it?
I don't think they should be removed.

Slughorn and Hagrid getting drunk is the worst thing she's written thus far and I think that if that's enough to influence a kid into drinking himself/herself drunk, the parents of said kid weren't watching their kid closely enough and/or they hadn't spoken to them about drinking yet. Of course, there will be those kids who drink either way but JK can't help that. Mind you, the HP series is far from being the only medium to feature alcohol consumption.


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-- T.E. Lawrence


eghf

Last edited by DarkDaysAhead; May 6th, 2007 at 3:13 am.
  #177  
Old May 6th, 2007, 3:26 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

To be completely honest, I didn't really think about the alcohol having any influence at all. It doesn't really bother me and out of all the Potter fans I know, it doesn't really seem to be a problem.


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  #178  
Old May 6th, 2007, 4:59 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDaysAhead View Post
The poll didn't show how many children who "had ever had a drink", it showed how many were heavy episodic drinkers. It can't be called a "lie" because it reflects the fact that almost every country contains kids who get drunk underage/at young ages.

Of course, lying makes it imperfect but hardly a lie because it reflects something other than what was expected.

GreenFacts.orgThe GreenFacts Organization

GreenFacts is an "a.s.b.l.", a Belgian non-profit organization, created in December 2001 by individuals from different backgrounds, with the aim to bring complex scientific reports on health and the environment to the reach of non-specialists. More...


GreenFacts was founded in 2001 by individuals from different environment and health backgrounds, which shared two common concerns:
  • They thought that reliable scientific information should be the basis for constructive debates between stakeholder and for informed decisions on health and environment issues.
  • They realized that the scientific information available on these issues is often unreliable, because it is usually provided,
  • either by stakeholder organizations (businesses, NGOs...), which tend to defend their own financial or political interests,
  • or by individual experts, which are often tempted to put forward their own personal views.
The founders agreed that the current state of scientific knowledge on these issues is best provided by scientific consensus reports, produced by large panels of scientific experts under the authority of international organizations, such as WHO, FAO, IARC, UNEP, and the European Commission.

However, these reports are usually difficult to find, and hard to read because they are long, complex, and written in expert jargon. To be understood by non-specialists, they need to be summarized, faithfully and in plain language.

To ensure that these reports would be communicated in an impartial manner, the founders created GreenFacts as a truly independent non-profit organization with a multi-stakeholder governance, whose publications would be controlled by an independent Scientific Board.

Two of the founders were employees of the SOLVAY Group and obtained from their management the initial funding for the creation of GreenFacts. SOLVAY committed to support us for three years, a period after which we would have acquired sufficient recognition to diversify our income sources.



Doesn't quite strike me as a shady organization...



I don't think they should be removed.

Slughorn and Hagrid getting drunk is the worst thing she's written thus far and I think that if that's enough to influence a kid into drinking himself/herself drunk, the parents of said kid weren't watching their kid closely enough and/or they hadn't spoken to them about drinking yet. Of course, there will be those kids who drink either way but JK can't help that. Mind you, the HP series is far from being the only medium to feature alcohol consumption.
I didn't say that the organisation lied - I said American teenagers did -and most likely quite a few of the parents (for fear of prosecution) America is a culture obsessed with being perfect - perfect teeth, perfect hair, perfect body, named clothes, perfect children, in perfect lives living in the "oh I can't drink because it will hurt my chances of getting into a good university, oh I can't drink because it will hurt my chances of getting a job after school." when they are actually socialising with the very people they will more than likely end up needing to employ them at some later date. (BTW I am not bashing the US just saying it is all how you look at things - maybe when you don't live in the US culture for a while it is easier to see.)

I'm just saying that in a society that is obsessed with what others think of them I think it would be very difficult to get a totally accurate reporting of the facts. Whereas in my personal experience in England people might get a bit lairy but in generally they are truthful about their drinking habits as it is not the taboo subject that it is in the US.

Also the outcome of drinking in most of Europe is staggering "home" from the event and getting "home" by public transport, taxi, minicab or Shanks's pony. Which is not normally what happens in the US - you just pray that each car was smart enough to nominate a Designated driver.

Remember this series is written from a British perspective about a school in Britain.


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  #179  
Old May 6th, 2007, 5:54 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverIsis View Post
(BTW I am not bashing the US just saying it is all how you look at things - maybe when you don't live in the US culture for a while it is easier to see.)
No, you're not, but you are allowing your opinion of the US to decide whether or not that poll is credible -- and, because of your opinion and your personal experiences, you've decided it isn't unless the US is at the top. Mind you, the topic of this thread isn't "Which country has more underage drunks?" and it was never my intention to make it the topic so it'd be better if we just dropped it because all that's being argued now is personal beliefs that can't be proven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverIsis View Post
Remember this series is written from a British perspective about a school in Britain.
I'm well aware of who wrote it and where Hogwarts is located. I never mentioned nationality, I posted a link and that's all.


Moving on... As I said in my other post, I don't think it'd be right to remove any references to alcohol from the books as kids are reading/watching/witnessing much worse elsewhere. And, as xhanax315 said, I didn't even really think about it unti this thread.


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  #180  
Old May 6th, 2007, 8:28 am
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Re: Alcohol in the Harry Potter Series

Quote:
The legal age to drink is 18 but anyone 10 years or older can drink alcohol. Butterbeer dosn't have alcohal. It's like Rootbeer
Children can actually drink at home from the age of 5

Would Hogwarts be considered 'home' or not, as it is the place where the children are living for a good proportion of the year, as I didn't go to a boarding school I am not certain about the law regarding boarding schools. (even though I live in Britain I am not certain on the law).

Quote:
I don't think it'd be right to remove any references to alcohol from the books as kids are reading/watching/witnessing much worse elsewhere.
I agree, firstly it would be censorship and secondly it would increase the belief of children that drinking is 'grown up' and therefore if you do drink you would be 'grown-up'

Personally I don't feel there is anythign wrong with JK having some teenagers drinking in moderation, it is often the norm (in Britain at least), however, if she starts having young wizards drinking vodka I'd be more concerned :P. To be honest I don't really think that many children will say 'oh look, Harry Potter drinks butterbeer, I will too' as, after all Butterbeer doesn't exist, and I actually think the reference will not be noticed by many young children.


 
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