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Your Mother Needn't Have Died



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  #1  
Old June 10th, 2006, 3:21 pm
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Discussion of the editorial Your Mother Needn't Have Died by Stephanie Davies, aka Harryzhorcrux.


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  #2  
Old June 10th, 2006, 3:50 pm
Lillibet Lillibet is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Great editorial, you raised a good lot of ideas



(am i seriously the first?? whoa, new for me )


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  #3  
Old June 10th, 2006, 3:54 pm
Gryffinpuff  Female.gif Gryffinpuff is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Wow! Excellent, EXCELLENT editorial!

I've been pondering this question myself, and this idea seems so obvious I'm amazed it hadn't occured to me before. Nonetheless, congrats on putting it down in writing so excellently, and getting the gears in my brain churning! This theory fits nicely with another one I've been considering. I may have to write an editorial about it...

Once again, great job!


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  #4  
Old June 10th, 2006, 4:17 pm
Mpol  Undisclosed.gif Mpol is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Yeah I loved reading it but to me I feel as though her JOB, her being able to live had more to do with it than just being a pawn...


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Old June 10th, 2006, 4:37 pm
enlil65  Female.gif enlil65 is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Very interesting, and definitely got me thinking. The idea that Voldemort intended to blame the Potters' murders on a scapegoat (and it seems so obvious now that you point it out!) prompted me to think of something else along similar lines, in particular:

What if Peter Pettigrew was the intended scapegoat? I have wondered for some time if his betrayal of the Potters could have been partially motivated by romantic feelings for Lily. The reason I have wondered about this is that, IIRC, after Peter became the secret keeper there was a delay before he informed Voldemort. My memory of this is fuzzy, but I think it was "within a week". Why would he wait a week after becoming secret keeper to make his appeal to (what he saw as) the more powerful side? That led me to wonder if something happened to disappoint him, a rejection perhaps, and prompetd him to give them over to Voldemort as payback.

So I would think it would go something like this: Peter took Voldemort to their hiding place--this places Peter at the scene. Voldemort's intention was to kill James and Harry, and make it look like Peter had murdered them in a jealous rage, to be with Lily. It is consistent with this plan that Lily would not be killed, because Peter would have no motivation to kill her. Voldemort would then place a Memory Charm on both Peter and Lily.

Oh, the evilness of making it look like Peter murdered for love...

Placing Peter at the scene means he was there to take Voldemort's wand after he fell; and as a firsthand witness he also was in the perfect position to inform Dumbledore (perhaps via Patronus) before heading out to cover his tracks by framing Sirius and faking his own death. In this scenario, informing Dumbledore is part of saving himself, so that also explains how the news got out so quickly.

I have to say I think this works very nicely.


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  #6  
Old June 10th, 2006, 4:45 pm
NeonDisease  Female.gif NeonDisease is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

I thought I remembered that Lily and James were pretty famous before their deaths. If it's not specifically canon in the first book, then it was at least discussed in a MuggleCast episode and generally agreed upon (I can't remember if someone gave page numbers or not). Thay had thrice defied Voldemort, after all. Everyone knows who the Longbottoms are, too, and what happened to them.

I agree that your editorial is very well-written and makes a great point. Certainly what you say is very likely. I'm such a sap, though, and I really do hope that Lily meant more to the whole episode than just that.


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  #7  
Old June 10th, 2006, 4:54 pm
Idabomb333  Undisclosed.gif Idabomb333 is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Enlil might be onto something, and I think some of the editorial's ideas are good. The big problem I see with the main point is that Voldemort did end up killing Lily. If he was going to put a memory charm on her, why didn't he put a memory charm on her instead of killing her? He could have even stunned her and waited to do the memory work afterwards. The reason has to be perfect to explain why he didn't want to kill her, but then felt like he had to or at least might as well.


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Old June 10th, 2006, 5:10 pm
luvtheheaven  Female.gif luvtheheaven is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Quote:
Originally Posted by enlil65
So I would think it would go something like this: Peter took Voldemort to their hiding place--this places Peter at the scene. Voldemort's intention was to kill James and Harry, and make it look like Peter had murdered them in a jealous rage, to be with Lily. It is consistent with this plan that Lily would not be killed, because Peter would have no motivation to kill her. Voldemort would then place a Memory Charm on both Peter and Lily.

Oh, the evilness of making it look like Peter murdered for love...
That's interesting, but it's too much speculation (in my opinion). I like what the editorial suggested - it makes perfect sense! The Longbottoms aren't that famous - Ron didn't know about Neville's parents....

It's a perfectly simple explanation for why Lily was offered her life - I like it!


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  #9  
Old June 10th, 2006, 5:22 pm
squibpott  Female.gif squibpott is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

wow wow and wow. This editorial is so amazing. I never really considered what you had brought up. But now that i have read the editorial it just seems all so obvious. Thank you.Voldemort using a Memory Charm on Lily would have been so very very cruel and so very very Voldemort. Can you imagine how horrible it would have been if Lily had been persuaded to believe that she had confessed to the murder of her own child and husband whom she had loved so very much. The horror of it! Mind you they probably would have been able to break through the Charm and with that spell to find the last spell a wand does it would have been possible to prove her innocence.
Mind you the Dark Lord was doomed all along because like Macbeth he stored too much on the prophecy.. Macbeth(the evil Thane (scottish lord) and usurper King) hears the weird sisters prophecy and goes to kill Macduff's wife and kids, without thinking of the consequences. He thinks he's invinsible but decides to do it just in case. I wounder if there are any more Macbeth connections. Macduff's wife died in a very similar way to Lily, I think.


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  #10  
Old June 10th, 2006, 5:25 pm
MacGyverMagic  Undisclosed.gif MacGyverMagic is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Maybe Voldemort was present at the killing of the Longbottoms?
According to this pattern, Neville's forgetfulness could be because of a charm Voldy inflicted on him...


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  #11  
Old June 10th, 2006, 5:25 pm
AccioHorcrux  Male.gif AccioHorcrux is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Very well-written.... Like many others said, the editorial really got me thinking. The only thing I wonder is, if your theory is true, what will be the "big revelation" about Lilly in the final book. If she was simply going to be used as a scapegoat I don't think that really qualifies, but who knows? Either way, I think you did a great job of researching and using evidence to support. Even if I don't necessarily agree, I think that you did a great job.


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  #12  
Old June 10th, 2006, 5:44 pm
Wafaa  Female.gif Wafaa is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Great editorial, and well-written.
I don't really agree though. In the first 2 murders voldemort makes, he wasn't making hocruxes yet. He asks slughorn about the hocrux after killing Tom Riddle Sr, as for hepzibah smith he might've. But still, at the time, he still wasn't powerful enough to commit murder and have a whole bunch of aurors on to him and trying to catch him, which is why he would've needed to cover up the murders. However when he killed Lily potter, he didn't really need to cover it up. Who would suspect anything if he just murdered the whole family? It's not like voldemort wasn't known to kill people, and the potters were quite powerful to have eluded him 3 times already. So keeping lily alive to blame the murders on her would not make much sense, as there's no motive for voldemort to cover up these murders.


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Old June 10th, 2006, 5:55 pm
miss_magical  Female.gif miss_magical is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

great editorial. I must say its one of the best i'v read, and i totally agree!!
Great work


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  #14  
Old June 10th, 2006, 6:04 pm
fuzzypatronus  Female.gif fuzzypatronus is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Hi,
This was a very interesting editorial, which I enjoyed reading. At first it seemed very convincing but then I thought some more, and I think I see one flaw in your theory. When Voldemort committed the Smith and Riddle murders, he wasn't the great "you know who" yet. He was hardly in a position in life when he could risk being exposed - remember, he was still not of age when his father was murdered. So he really needed to hide his blame. The same goes for when he was a young assisstant at Borgin and Burke's - he didn't have an army of deatheaters behind him yet. Consider Frank Bryce's murder - he never made any particular effort trying to cover it up, and certainly didn't try to blame someone for it, yet this murder is considered (though not definitely) as the one used for the creation of Nagini as a horcrux. Perhaps Voldemort didn't bother covering up for it because Frank was a muggle and he didn't imagine anyone in the wizarding world would investigate the death of a muggle. but it is still very different than the other two killings stated.
However, by the time Voldemort went after Harry, he was at the top of his strength, and the use of the dark mark only comes to show that neither he not those who acted on his own behalf ever bothered to cover their tracks at that time. On the contrary - their purpose was to make the murders as public as possible, to inspire more terror. I can see just as much sense in Voldemort making Harry's murder well known - there came the great dark lord, who defeated his last possible enemy, and thus established his reign... Indeed, he wanted to keep his horcrux making a secret, but there is no evidence in what we currently know about horcruxes that the horcrux has to be made at exactly the same time or place as the murder. He could have made the murder famous while keeping the horcrux a secret.
Another point to consider is that you only have those two horcrux murders to base the theory upon. There are also the locket and the diary, which we know very little about, in terms of how they were made. Were they created when voldemort was in or out of power? Everyone in the wizarding world knows that Voldemort was responsible for numerous deaths. But there is no absolute victims list, so it could have been any of them. In Order of the phoenix, p. 158 Moody mentions Dorcas Meadows who was mudered by Voldemort himself. could she have been used for a horcrux? It was obviously not covered up.
Anyway, my point is that its a bit too far to assume that hiding the killer's identity has to be a recurring factor in a horcrux murder. But never the less, a very well written editorial. I have to admit I can't offer any wholesome theory as to why Lily was offered her life so many times.


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  #15  
Old June 10th, 2006, 6:31 pm
lmk  Female.gif lmk is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Congratulations! This editorial is well thought out and makes a great deal of sense. Sometimes the easiest things to miss are the ones that are the most obvious. It will be a great deal of fun when the seventh book is published and we have all of our questions answered and our speculations confirmed or shot down.

I rarely post replies to the (mostly) wonderful Mugglenet editorials, but I enjoy reading what others have to say. I have a question for MacGyverMagic, the person who is responsible for Post #10 on this thread. I agree that it's very possible, even likely, that Neville is under the influence/protection of a Memory Charm, but why are you speculating whether or not "Voldemort was present at the killing of the Longbottoms"? If you're making reference to Neville's parents, Frank and Alice Longbottom, they are most certainly NOT dead. They are permanent(?) residents at St. Mungo's Hospital.


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  #16  
Old June 10th, 2006, 6:33 pm
LoonyDuckling  Female.gif LoonyDuckling is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

It seems so simple, I'm surprised there hasn't been more speculation on this idea! Great editorial, it really opens a lot of doors and possbilities.


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  #17  
Old June 10th, 2006, 6:39 pm
sriharish  Male.gif sriharish is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Now this is what I call a brilliant editorial, really well done. Also I would like to point out something here
  1. Lily potter was an exceptional potioneer. It is repeatedly emphasized in HBP by Slughorn. This might be the other reason why Voldemort wanted Lily potter alive.
  2. The HBP is not a complete book- we all know that, there are unsolved mysteries sprinkled all over the book. One thing we noticed that it looks like a girl's handwriting inside Harry's copy of Advanced Potion making. We still have no proof whose handwriting it is..the book might have belonged to Snape but the point is that it is still worth discussing about these tiny things. I have a feeling that the APM book story isn't over yet.
  3. Snape or Regulus Black might be present on the night potter's were killed.
Looks like these are all inter-linked, don't you think?

Really great job


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  #18  
Old June 10th, 2006, 7:28 pm
Sunesy  Female.gif Sunesy is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

I don't know who posted this, but someone said that it was weird voldemort wanted lily allive for the memory charm and then killed her anyway... well he could just as easily have blamed the murder on pettigrew allone instead of involving lilly... He could make Pettigrew believe lilly rejected him, so pettigrew decided to kill her...


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  #19  
Old June 10th, 2006, 7:51 pm
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limi  Female.gif limi is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wafaa
Great editorial, and well-written.
I don't really agree though. In the first 2 murders voldemort makes, he wasn't making hocruxes yet. He asks slughorn about the hocrux after killing Tom Riddle Sr, as for hepzibah smith he might've. But still, at the time, he still wasn't powerful enough to commit murder and have a whole bunch of aurors on to him and trying to catch him, which is why he would've needed to cover up the murders. However when he killed Lily potter, he didn't really need to cover it up. Who would suspect anything if he just murdered the whole family? It's not like voldemort wasn't known to kill people, and the potters were quite powerful to have eluded him 3 times already. So keeping lily alive to blame the murders on her would not make much sense, as there's no motive for voldemort to cover up these murders.
This was exactly what I thought when reading the editorial. When Voldemort killed Heptziba Smith and the Riddles he was a respectable member of the wizarding community, and he wasn't quite as skilled or had as many followers yet so he couldn't afford being chased after by the entire ministry. At the time Voldemort murdered the Potters he was already known as a powerful dark wizard who killed many people. What difference would it was known he killed 3 more people? No one would be surprised...
I'd also like to point out that Dumbledore didn't break the memory charms Voldemort put on Morphin and Hokey, he merely found other memories that existed in their minds. The one he found in Morphin's contradicted the planted memory, but the one found in Hokey's didn't prove anything.


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  #20  
Old June 10th, 2006, 7:58 pm
ptrut12345  Undisclosed.gif ptrut12345 is offline
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Re: Your Mother Needn't Have Died

I just don't think it's practical. Everyone who knew the Potters would not have thought Lily would do such a thing. Dumbledore would be more suspicious and probably look more deeply into it than if it looked the work of a Death Eater. If anything, framing Wormtail would make the most sense. It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't really answer all the questions that arise. I'm sure JKR will blow our minds, when we learn...


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