Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

[enlil65]

No timeturners will pass muster in my mind! That makes it much too complicated for my taste -- it's much too easy to solve any problem anyone can think of with the application of Ye Olde Time Turner...

IIRC Sirius didn't give Harry to Hagrid, but rather he met Hagrid at the house where they talked, and Sirius tried to convince Hagrid to give Harry to him because he was Harry's godfather. I don't remember Harry ever leaving Hagrid's arms in this scene.

Regarding the Stone, I thought maybe Harry could see it because he didn't see it at all: he only saw a package wrapped in paper which was taken from the vault. So my thinking was, if Hagrid had opened the paper maybe Harry wouldn't have been able to see it if it were hidden under the Fidelius Charm. But now that I think it over again, I think you're right, Harry wouldn't have been able to see it. But then, he wasn't trying to see the Stone, he thought he was seeing a plain brown package... so who knows...

[GinnysHex]

I don't think that I made my self clear. Yes Dumbledore was able to tell people in the Order and Harry where the location is because of the note and the spell was not broken. The reason the spell was not broken because it was a note that was given. The secret was not spoken aloud and thus the spell is not broken. The reason I believe that the spell was broken when Wormtail told Voldemort was because he spoke the secret aloud. I just find it hard to believe that Wormtail would hand Voldemort a piece of parchment with the location on it. I don't think that Voldemort would allow that and I don't think he cared if the spell was broken or not. As long as the location gave him what he wanted it didn't matter to him. It may have given him what he wanted, the end result was not what he wanted though.

[hulagirl]

I believe Ginnyshex means that the charm can only stay intact if it is NEVER spoken. That once it is, no matter if it is friend or foe, the spell is broken. It's as good a theory as any other and less convoluted than my own theories! I had been under the impression that you could verbally tell someone and only that person would know and that that person would be unable to divulge the secret. Interesting.

[enlil65]

As far as I know, the Secret Keeper can tell the secret any way he wishes: verbally, written, or even in Morse Code. The point of the charm is that only the Secret Keeper can tell the secret; and that being told the secret by the Secret Keeper is the only way to find out about it (even if he tells it in Morse Code!). I would suggest that those who think the secret can only be shared in writing are reading too much into the one instance we've seen firsthand of a secret being shared: you're assuming that the specific example we've seen represents the entire domain of Secret Keeping. I don't think this is correct. I always figured the only reason that Order Headquarters secret was shared with Harry via writing was because Dumbledore wasn't present there, and no one else could tell Harry the secret, therefore it had to be communicated in writing in this specific instance. That doesn't mean that it can only be communicated in writing--just that it was this one time.

It's similar to saying, a blackbird is black, therefore all birds are black: it's bad logic.

I find it a bit frustrating that no one here can even agree on what the Fidelius Charm is! It makes it very difficult to have a logical discussion.

[hulagirl]

enlil, I agree that it does appear that some people are not on the same page as far as exactly what or how a FC works. I agree with your theory, myself, but you yourself are assuming that your (our) theory is correct. The JKR quote in my original editorial mentions what the charm DOES but but not how it is put into effect, how it EXACTLY works, or how it can be nullified. Perhaps a mistake on JKR's part? BTW (I am also with you on the TT theory but I was just illustrating a point. Anything right now is plausible because we don't have a specific timeline to follow. Most of what we know is either second hand i.e. free to Harry's interpretation, or through the eyes of Harry as a one year old.)

[BobSquirrelKing]

Originally Posted by Dawson_Smith

Draco will probably be the only Death Eater who could act as Secret Keeper to Voldemorts wearabouts as Voldemort comes to realize that Harry is systematically destroying the horcruxes.

If Voldemort realized that Harry was dstroying his horcruxes, why wouldn't he make more? He knows that the diary was destroyed, but since he thinks that is the only one anyone knows about he still feels safe. However, if he found out that Harry knew about them all and was trying to destroy all of his horcruxes, he would either make more or increase security around the remaining ones so that Harry could not get to them alive. Either that or he would go after and confront him before Harry could destroy them all, as he would still be unkillable as long as he had at least one left.

Also, murder only tears a soul, and must be further ripped to split it and create a horcrux, so any of his Death Eaters could be the secret keeper for his headquarters, as their souls are only damaged, not ripped in two.

And about some of the various Fidelius Charm theories and the time turner theory. Why do you think that the magic that prevented Quirrel from getting the stone but allowing Harry to was a Fidelius charm. Dumbledore said that that was one of his more brilliant ideas, and since, as far as we know, the Fidelius charm was not created by Dumbledore, the ability to use it in that way would either have not existed or, at the very least, not been a brilliant idea on Dumbledore's part. Not to mention the fact that this goes against everything we actually [i]know[i] about the charm and how it works.
As for the charm used to safegaurd the Potters, I believe that it was broken, either when the house was destroyed, or because of Wormtail. I don't think that his telling the secret might have destroyed the charm, but, since the secret-keeper can choose who to divulge the secret to, then why wouldn't they be able to end the charm as well.
The theory that Dumbledore set up a new charm on Harry after he learned of Voldemort's attack against them that prevented anyone wishing to harm Harry from finding him is utter balderdash, as is the belief that the charm allows someone to find the hidden object in an emergency. Nowhere in any of the books or any communications with Rowling is there any indication that these things are possible. Furthermore, even if these things were possible and Dumbledore had made the charm on Harry, how could anyone else see him, as it would surely not be an emergency that everyone he meets be able to see him.
Now about the theory that Sirius used a time turner to go back in time to save his friends but only arrived in time to save Harry. I have several problems with this.
1) If he would be unable to find the house or Harry until Pettigrew killed the muggles, then he wouldn't be able to find it after traveling back either.
2) If he somehow managed to find it when he traveled back but was to late to save Lily and James, why wouldn't he just travel farther back and save them
3) If he had a time turner and was able to go back in time, he would be able to evade the Ministry and hunt for Peter immeadiatly, rather than languishing in prison for years.

[hulagirl]

Bob, I am not saying that all the theories I put forth are right. But they are plausible. For instance if you assume my theory is correct about Peter soul splitting because he committed the murders then you assume Cassakay's order of events is true then the only way for Sirius to save the Potters would be time travel. Sirius A would still not know the secret but Sirius B going back in time WOULD know because in HIS time the charm was broken after Peter killed the Muggles. You have many points about the time turner I personally agree with but just because your assumptions are not the same as mine (or any other posters) does not make any of the other opinions not true (after all we arre all interpreting the canon differently.) Do I really think there was a time turner? No. Is it possible? Yes. If you follow one set of assumptions. It's pretty confusing! Happily so though. If we knew the answers it wouldn't be that much fun! As for what JKR has and has not said..well I would assume that if she told us too much or gave too many hints then we wouldn't be having this conversation! Is that "balderdash?"

[saddrummer]

Originally Posted by Tauriel

Not a bad editorial, but I don't understand why do you assume that every time a wizard kills someone he automatically splits his soul? There is no evidence in the books for this claim.

To create Horcrux (i.e. split your soul), you have to kill someone. But not vice versa, you can kill people without having to split your soul.

And honestly, I don't think Wormtail is such a powerful wizard to be able to split his soul and create a Horcrux.

Yeh i agree with Tauriel, half your editorial was based on the fact that if you kill someone you split your soul, thats not true, that is never said in the book. You must say a spell to split it. Harry kills tha Basilisk, has he split his soul?

[Kelly413]

Hi, I'm Kelly, first time poster, long time lurker.

I really enjoyed reading your editorial. However, I truly believe that merely killing someone would not split your soul. If that were the case, there would be thousands of people across the ages that have split their souls in this manner. Therefore, Tom Riddle's questions about the process would not have frightened Slughorn as much as it had. That, and I don't believe that Tom would have been so interested if the process was so easily obtained.

[Volodymyr]

Yeh i agree with Tauriel, half your editorial was based on the fact that if you kill someone you split your soul, thats not true, that is never said in the book. You must say a spell to split it. Harry kills tha Basilisk, has he split his soul?

Actually, it IS specifically stated that murder is so unnatural that it always splits the soul. The horcrox spell only takes advantage of the splitting of the soul; it does not cause it.

But no, Harry's soul wasn't split when he killed the Basilisk, because that was not murder.

So you're right. Killing doesn't always split the soul. Unless it's murder.

[vivekgk]

A Beautiful editorial, well researched, and substantial. This latest twist on the Fidelius charm might explain how everyone now knows that the Potters lived in Godric's Hollow, even when the secret Keeper is still alive.

I read a comment about the secret keeper needing to be a 'superman'. Well, would you trust a murderer with your life? Of course the secret keeper needs to be pure of heart, and as Sirius said, he should be willing to die rather than betray his friends. A person who would kill another without a second thought can't be expected to place your life over his.

I also wondered how Harry would be able to visit his parents house, when Pettigrew is still alive. This would be a perfect explanation. It would also explain why Hagrid 'got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around'.

However, there is still another question. When Hagrid went to get Harry, Sirius hadn't gone after Pettigrew yet. His first concern was Harry. It was only after Hagrid refused to hand him over that Sirius decided to go after Pettigrew. So, how did the charm collapse before Pettigrew had murdered the twelve muggles?

A good reason would be, the charm collapsed when the wording of the secret was somehow violated. Until we know the eact wording of the charm, we cannot know for sure. But it is sure that it was not simply the splitting of the soul that nullified the charm. Perhaps it had to do with the house itself being destroyed.

Flitwick says that Voldemort could have been looking into the Potters' sitting room window and still not have found them. This suggests that it was the people themselves, rather than the house, who were hidden by the charm. If the house were hidden, Voldemort would not have been able to see it, let alone look through the window.

Once again, it all comes down to the wording of the charm. The charm must have been worded in such a way that it was nullified by either Pettigrew telling Voldemort about it, or by the deaths of the ones the charm was intended to protect. However, there is no doubt that the charm has been broken.

[smithke]

I'm must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the fidelus charm. I did not read every post before so I appologize if this has already been stated.
I will assume that murdering does split the soul. However, it does not creat another soul. So you still only have one soul and thus the secret is still in a single-living soul.

[Airmaster5]

I am rather half-minded. If we travel all the way back to the first chapters of PS/SS, we find that Hagrid mentions that he borrowed the motorcycle from Sirius Black. Black wanted to take Harry from the wreckage. I think it is safe to assume that he wanted to take Harry in and raise him. At some points we have seen that Sirius has acted rashly; however, he wouldn't have gone out and killed the streetfull of muggles and then gone to collect Harry. Therefore, the murders of Lily and James happened BEFORE Peter's attack- If the previous is true, Peter still had, we assume, that he had a complete soul-making him a canidate to be secret-keeper.
However, one large question remains: "Can you split your your soul if you, like Wormtail, were directly involved with a murder, but the actual killer." If the answer is yes, then Snape could have made a Horcrux for himself by tipping Voldemort about the prophecy. I wouldn't be overly surprised if Snape also has a horcrux.
I do wholly agree about your suspicions about what Hagrid showed the goblin.

[TheMarauder]

About your comment on Dumbledore defeating/killing Grindelwald, and if he did kill him that that would split his soul...I offer this as a possibility: maybe only what you would call "murder" counts for splitting a person's soul. If Dumbledore did kill Grindelwald, he did not murder him...he killed him possibly out of self-defense or out of "well, this guy needs to be killed because he is a very powerful dark wizard". Thats if he did kill him...not saying he did for sure.

I thought that it was a very good editorial, and something different from the normal Horcrux or RAB editorials.

[VeritaAll]

I like the idea of being able to get around the Fidelius Charm. The only problem with the Wormtail idea is that his soul wasn't split until after Lily and James were killed. When Wormtail showed up on the street with Sirius he was sobbing "Lily and James! How could you?" so it was obvious they were already dead. He then proceeded to kill the Muggles, splitting his soul.

[hulagirl]

Where do we see Wormtail sobbing? I don't remember that at all. Thanks.

[Bradly_Chaos]

i don't really know if this has been brought up for , first post and all, but Dumbdore did say durring his fight with Voldemort something like "we both know there are other ways to destroy a man" (Im paraphrasing I think) But that would be a way for Dumbledore to avoid murder which he obliously likes to avoid whenever possible. We already know when way to do that too the Demetor's kiss, not that dumbledore would do that not likeing dementors but its Dumbledore so anything is possible.

[Tripp21]

There is so much that we don't understand, that we can only be left with the most rudimentary of guesswork as to how FD charms work. There are so many questions that need to be answered, but as far as some questions that have been brought up I would still like to address... I know some have been addressed, but none the less... everyone else gets their two cents! lol

Killing does not split a soul, but murder does... and of course, the definition of murder would be...

Main Entry: mur-der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Old English morthor; partly from Old French murdre, of Germanic origin
: the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing another under circumstances defined by statute (as with premeditation); especially : such a crime committed purposely, knowingly, and recklessly with extreme indifference to human life

I don't think that murder would nullify a FD Charm as just because a soul is split... even if part of the soul is left in a horcrux then it is still part of a whole soul. If I have a sheet of paper, and I tear it in half... granted I now have 2 pieces of paper, but they are two pieces of the same one sheet of paper. So, I believe that Wormtails soul was split, but that it had no effect on the charm itself.

Next... and the biggest question I now have at this point...

Is there another way of nullifying a FD Charm? lol I mean, if not it seems to me that it could be more detrimental in the long run than helpful... for example... If Dumbledore was the secret keeper for 12 Grimmauld Place then it would no longer be effective for the HQ of the OotP, as any new members couldn't get in!

On that strain of thought (and if you can cast it on a person which I assume you can) if there is no other way to nullify the charm, if someone were to cast it on let's say HP... and they died before telling anyone... he would have to walk through life with nobody ever seeing him again! This makes the FD charm both very powerful and, frankly, inconvenient...

There has to be another way to break the charm... I just don't know what.

[Cassakay]

Though, like mentioned before, Sirius was there when the charm was performed on the Potters, so he already knew the secret.

I just went back to look at this. It just doesn't make sense to me that anyone BUT the secret keeper would know the secret.

If Sirius knew the secret of where the Potters lived, there was no point in him not being the secret keeper to being with. The logic to choosing Peter, by my understanding, is that Sirius could be caught and tortured, but even if he wanted to, could not give up what he didn't know. Sirius was afraid that he might break or slip and *he* convinced James and Lily to choose Peter.

Likewise, if Dumbledore knew the secret, why not just let him be the keeper? It defies reason that there's one secret keeper, yet three people besides those in hiding who could know the location.

So if there's a secret keeper, the only thing that makes sense, unless I'm completely missing something, is that that keeper is the only one with the knowledge in the world. If Sirius and Dumbledore were able to find the house where Lily and James died, it stands to reason that the secret was already out, because they could remember where the house was now.

[swottygirl15]

On the subject of the Fidelius charm I have a odd theory to add to it all. This week I was reading a book that was fool of off -the -wall ideas regarding the first 4 Potter books. But Ifound this one and it got me thinking.It said that Remus J. Lupin could be James Potter if Remus and James performed a Switching spell before the Fidelius charm.That way it could keep James safe inside Remus's body taking on all of his characteristics.Also keeping the important Potter bloodline alive and giving Harry more protection.There is week proof of this theory and here are the basics: Lupin always seems to know what James would think, he seems to be carefull not to show too much emotion when with Harry-so nobody will suspect their conection- and thirdly maybe a reason for his resistance towards Tonks....his heart belongs to Lily. Well lrt me know what you think