The Unforgivable Curses - Are aurors murderers?

[negaprion]

I have read in a number of threads that Aurors use Unforgivable Curses routinely on Death Eaters in the course of their work. I don't remember this from the books.

I know that Crouch, Sr. was a bit overzealous in his hunt for DEs, but I don't recall where it said that Aurors killed DEs with Avada Kedavra or tortured them using Crucio. We have seen two all-out "adult" battles between the good guys and DEs and not once did the good guys Avada Kedavra or CC anyone - not when it looked like they were losing at the Ministry or even to save Bill Weasley from being mauled by a werewolf.

Now, I know that DEs did get killed in fights with Aurors, but there are other ways to die other than Avada Kedavra. For instance, everyone assumed Pettigrew was dead even though he wasn't AKed. That Sectumsutra (or whatever) curse Harry said could have killed Malfoy. Four Stunners to the chest almost killed McGonnagal.

Unforgivable Curses aren't unforgivable just because of the effects. They are unforgivable because of the hatred and desire to inflict harm that it takes to cast them. Would the 'good guys' still be good guys if they used them? I think that we were fooled by imposter Moody into ignoring the effects of these curses on the caster. Most of HBP was concerned with how Avada Kedavra damages the soul of the person who casts it.

Would anyone want to be an auror if it meant their souls would be shredded? Could an auror (who is seemingly a good person) even cast the spells effectively? Could someone who was vicious enough to cast them ever make it through the intense screening process to become an auror?




(I'm sorry if this has been done before - I did do a search)

[mars16]

I do think that Aurors use the unforgivable curses just because if they are Dark Wizard catchers they are in a sense protecting the "good" wizarding community and should be able to do so in any possible way. I don't think that aurors need the "hatred power" to back up their killing curse because they go through years of training that I would think that they would learn how to use the Unforgivable curses by sheer determination. I don't think they use the UFC as their first offence in catching dark wizards, they probably use them as a last resort. You make some really good arguments though but I think that the way aurors preform the killing curse isnt in the same way most dark wizards do...out of hatred and pure evil so I dont' think their souls are being shredded. Aurors probably barely ever use the killing offence.

[BriBriInAction]

It's like a cop carries a gun to protect themself, catch the person, and protect innocents, even though the bad guy does too (not in all cases of course) I also think that under alot of cirucumstances alot of the jinxes and hexes they use would rebound off a death eater who could do a shielding charm so a unforgivable curse would definitely be able to break one of those, and would therefore be a very nifty spell if you were an auror.

[dobby_rocks]

I wouldn’t look at them as murders, it real no different then say a Police officer killing someone in order to protect citizens or even the Armed forces.

I also don’t think their souls are being shredded, I think something else has to be done if you intended to split your soul.

[EverLore]

I think you have a great point, and I believe that it would take an extreme circumstance for an auror to use an unforgivable, because you're right...the hate that it takes to cast the spells is incredible, and rips your soul. Only a person who was really evil would use one. Unless like I said, it was an extrememly extreme circumstance.

[lil_snuffles]

I dont think that Aurors are murderers because if they do use an unforgivable curse against a death eater, then it could be used as self defence. They would probably only use it if they were in deep trouble, like facing a death eater. So no, I dont think they are murderers.

[hermiones_peak]

Originally Posted by lil_snuffles

I dont think that Aurors are murderers because if they do use an unforgivable curse against a death eater, then it could be used as self defence. They would probably only use it if they were in deep trouble, like facing a death eater. So no, I dont think they are murderers.

I agree with you totally, because you can't just say that because they use Unforgivable Curses, that automatically aligns them with being murderors. Their goals are to prevent people who harm other people from harming other people and I think that in certian situations (which I think aurors often find themselves in) yes, the Curses should be applied.

[katheadmistriss]

Well, if the Aurors use Crucio just because they feel like hurting the DE's thats a bit over the top. But using the three Unforgivables in the line of work to capture and detane the DE's thats okay. It's just when they use it under bias, or in malase that it is bad.

[Aramina]

Originally Posted by lil_snuffles

I dont think that Aurors are murderers because if they do use an unforgivable curse against a death eater, then it could be used as self defence. They would probably only use it if they were in deep trouble, like facing a death eater. So no, I dont think they are murderers.

If you kill someone, you're a murderer, whether or not it's in self-defense. Your soul still gets split in half. Obviously it's different if you kill someone when you're a police officer or a soldier in a war zone, but you're still a murderer, regardless.

Anyway. I do believe that in Goblet of Fire we found out that the Aurors had been authorized, at the height of Voldemort's powers, to use Unforgivable Curses on the Death Eaters. However, this was when Crouch was in power, and he was widely acknowledged to have been exceedingly harsh on those suspected of being Dark wizards (he is, after all, the one who let Sirius go straight to Azkaban without a trial). I really think that the Aurors are no longer allowed to use such harsh methods.

Originally Posted by negaprion

Unforgivable Curses aren't unforgivable just because of the effects. They are unforgivable because of the hatred and desire to inflict harm that it takes to cast them. Would the 'good guys' still be good guys if they used them? I think that we were fooled by imposter Moody into ignoring the effects of these curses on the caster. Most of HBP was concerned with how Avada Kedavra damages the soul of the person who casts it.

Would anyone want to be an auror if it meant their souls would be shredded? Could an auror (who is seemingly a good person) even cast the spells effectively? Could someone who was vicious enough to cast them ever make it through the intense screening process to become an auror?

I think it's perfectly possible to still be a 'good guy' and hate someone enough to kill them, especially when you're in the middle of a battle or a war. The thing is, the good guys will sit down afterwards and have second thoughts, will feel guilty and worry about what they did. The bad guys, on the other hand, just say "ah, that felt good" and go on about their lives.

Aurors obviously could use the spells effectively, or there would have been no point in authorizing the use of them. Keep in mind, though, that authorizing the use of something doesn't mean that you have to use it. I mean, the American government has long since authorized the use of tobacco, but that doesn't mean every American must use it

It's quite likely that only a very few Aurors actually used the spells; I don't recall ever having heard/read about any Death Eaters who had been AK'd or Crucio'd by any Auror.

[lil_snuffles]

Originally Posted by hermiones_peak

I agree with you totally, because you can't just say that because they use Unforgivable Curses, that automatically aligns them with being murderors. Their goals are to prevent people who harm other people from harming other people and I think that in certian situations (which I think aurors often find themselves in) yes, the Curses should be applied.

To me, that makes perfect since. This also applys to real life with other people. But I agree with Aramina; if you kill someone, yes you would be considered a murderer, but arent Aurors kind of like police officers. They risk their lives by fighting the death eaters, just like police fighting a killer, etc.

[nevillesgal]

I agree with what many have said, but not totally. I agree that it is very similar to being a police officer, in fact I think Aurors are to the Wizarding World what police officers are to the Muggle World-the protectors of the law and the innocent. I do however think that killing someone for any reason does make you a murderer. Killing in self defense is something that I approve of, but only if you are defending your own or someone else's life. If your life isn't threatened, but say, your car is, then I don't think you are justified to kill the perpetrator. This is why after a police officer has to use their weapon to kill in the line of duty there is an investigation into the circumstances of the shooting. Not to discredit that officer, but to ensure the shooting was necessary.

I think this is the same for Aurors murdering a DE. If they can gain control of the situation without using an AK then they should. For example, DD didn't have to use any of the unforgiveable curses against the DE's at the ministry, he hooked them all up in one wave of his wand. Obviously, DD is very powerful and not everyone could do this, but I would think Aurors are able to do other things also to capture DEs. Remember: the Order would have to be extremely careful about using unforgiveable curses because they are not authorized by the ministry to do so. Especially in OoTP at the ministry, since at that time the ministry didn't believe in the return of LV.

[hwyla]

I'd just like to add that using Avada Kedavra does NOT require HATE. Bella said you had to really MEAN the curse - not that you needed a certain level of hate to do the curse. Therefore, what is needed for Avada Kedavra is not hate, but a extreme determination for that person to be dead. It is unlikely that Peter actually 'hated' Cedric, but he was determined enough that Cedric should be dead (I'm sure the alternative of disobeying Voldy didn't seem very nice) that the Avada Kedavra worked.

It should also be said that since JKR based the spell on an old (medieval) arabic 'healing' spell, that the original Avada Kedavra MAY even have been invented for euthanasia. Where one might wish enough for a loved one to die rather than a prolonged, painful death. After all, it does appear to cause instant death without pain.

I'm actually waiting to find out in bk7 that an auror made a mistake with an unforgivable and killed/tortured the wrong person. It's one possibility that JKR hasn't touched on yet and I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen.

Especially when we add in Remus' comments on how one really hardly ever knew who was on what side. I think the opportunity for a wrongful death is just wide open.

[lil_snuffles]

But what if they cant get control of the situation? What do they do then?

[DarthSeverus]

Originally Posted by BriBriInAction

It's like a cop carries a gun to protect themself, catch the person, and protect innocents, even though the bad guy does too (not in all cases of course) I also think that under alot of cirucumstances alot of the jinxes and hexes they use would rebound off a death eater who could do a shielding charm so a unforgivable curse would definitely be able to break one of those, and would therefore be a very nifty spell if you were an auror.

I agree. Whereas there are wizards who work for the MoM who are general 'enforcers' of the magical community who are sort of the equivalent of the police, the Aurors seem to be the 'special agents', like the FBI or S.W.A.T. team. (heavily armed police for dire situations, for those outside the U.S.)

Aurors make up a smaller, well-trained contingent of law enforcement, and are most likely given clearance to use whatever force necessary to bring down offenders, depending on the nature of the violation. Unforgivable Curses would definitely be allowed to them under certain circumstances.

[HP4evr1807]

No--I do not believe that aurors murderers. They are trying to protect the wizarding community from dangerous wizards and witches who will probably kill somebody anyway, or try too. They aren't murdering out of hate, they aren't murdering with the notion of hurting somebody and having pleasure out of that fact, they are just doing their job, protecting the wizarding world from criminals, and they are also in great danger themselves.

[CelestLBeing]

In Goblet of Fire when the Trio had their first DADA class with the imposter Moody They were shown the three 'unforgivable' curses. On page 213 Moody asks the class "Anyone else know one? Another illegal curse?" Then on page 217 Moody says "Now...those three curses__ Avada Kedavra, Imperius, and Cruciatus _ are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of an one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban."

The Aurors are like the wizard equivalent of muggle police. They wouldn't break their own laws. I seriously doubt that any of the aurors have ever used any of the illegal curses.

[lil_snuffles]

I think everyone has good points on this question. To me, its kind of a yes or no question.

[nevillesgal]

Originally Posted by lil_snuffles

But what if they cant get control of the situation? What do they do then?

Personally, I think that would be reason to use an unforgiveable. But, only after they have tried to gain control without using one.

[YellowRose]

They have to deal with very evil wizards who all seem to stop at nothing and don't mind stooping lower than low to help Voldemort get what he wants. I remember a line from the Terminator film (not word for word) when the soilder (Auror) is telling the intended victim ( Order member) about how to deal with the cyborg Terminator (Death Eater)...

"You can't reason with it, you can't bargain with it"

Needless to say the soldier (in the film) shot at the Terminator as much as it shot at him. The soldier had to stop it killing people and the only way to do it was to destroy the cyborg.

OK, so the story is not exactly like Harry Potter but the point is more or less the same. The soldier has to kill to save other people, but this does not make him a murderer. The same with the Aurors, they need to stop the Death Eaters and if it means killing then they have to go down that road.

[WalpurgisKnight]

Aurors are kinda like FBI agents of the wizarding world. The leave all the small harmless attacks to the Ministry, while hunt for more serious threats. Aurors of course use unforgivable curses. Though I highly doubt they use the curciatus or imperial curses, but they most likley use Avada Kedavra. It most likley would be their last resort depending on the death eater. If it was Voldemort, they would use the killing curse because they know what the dark lord is capable of, and how they must seem like just an annoying fly to him. Also they would most likley use heavier curses for Bellatrix, since she is so close with Voldemort. They would use the killing curse most likley in a heart beat on Snape, since he killed Dumbledore.

Though if the aurors were up again weaker members likley Gyole, Crabb, Macnair, Wormtail, or Draco, they would use lighter curses like stunning and such.