Snape in OOTP

[Snapes_Angel2]

Originally Posted By Saracene
And even if he did - we also have the conversation that Harry overheard where Snape was trying to get Draco to spill his plans. Why would he do that if he was already briefed by Voldemort?

I also picked that up. Back in chapter 2 Snape makes it look like he already knows what Draco is supposed to do, and it may be partly true. Voldemort may have told him the jest of the plan, but left out the details. Which would be why he was confronting Draco about it. He was hoping that Draco would trust him enough to tell him exactly what he was planning to do. so he could either help him (which was probably against Voldemort's wishes) or he could run and tell Dumbledore and then try and sabotage his plans.

[staniw]

Originally Posted by Saracene

Besides, I think that Snape could easily have gotten away with not giving any warning to the Order and still stay in Dumbledore's good graces. He could have easily said that why, the last time he's seen Harry, he was still safely at Hogwarts and in the hands of Professor Umbridge. The warning? Well, everyone who understood what Harry's cryptic words actually meant went off to the Ministry - so who was going to tell Dumbledore anything about the warning?

But Snape could not foresee that when Harry gave the warning. He heard Harry giving a warning and it was unknown to him, at that point, if Dumbledore would not receive an account of what happened in that office. For Snape to ignore that warning would be incredible stupid, to many eyewitnesses were there, which made it more then likely that Dumbledore would eventually hear about it. That was amore likely scenario then that all of the students would join Harry in the ministry. So Snape had to act. Which he did: he checked if Sirius was OK. But he didn’t warn the order that there was a trap plan, that it would be a good idea to go to the MoM and get some deatheaters. A fine balancing act, nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort can complain at this point.

In which case, why is there no indication that Snape copped any punishment from Voldemort for messing up his plans? Because he certainly would have.

That’s the question isn’t it? It is speculation, but no more then that, that Snape had his story ready from the start. If Voldemort didn’t gave Snape orders, if he hadn’t ordered Snape to remain at Hogwarts and things like that one would expect some serious punishment for Snape. But Snape didn’t receive that punishment so he got away with it. He was able to give a satisfactory explanation to Voldemort. That makes it more likely that there were orders from Voldemort how Snape should behave. We have two canon things which point this way: Voldemort’s wish that Snape remains a spy (which indicates that Voldemort recognises that Snape needs a good cover story for Dumbledore) and Voldemort’s order for Snape to stay behind, which indicates Snape’s prior knowledge of the plan.
Incidentally this does not prove that Snape is really on Voldemort’s side in OOTP because Dumbledore would have made similar plans. But there is a possibility that he was working for Voldemort. And there has to be this possibility, simply because he got away with it. Both Dumbledore and Voldemort don’t think that Snape was unfaithful to them. I tend to think that Snape has been unfaithful to at least one of them. But there has to be a good reason why the one he actually was unfaithful too still trusts him. And Voldemort given prior orders to Snape is certainly a good reason for Voldemort to trust Snape, regardless whether Voldemort is correct in trusting Snape. But there has to be a reason why Voldemort isn’t suspicious of Snape after OOTP.

Well, I personally think that the question of whether Snape really knew about Draco's task is up for grabs

Canon tells us so. And do you really think it is likely that Snape would lie about that in spinner’s end? If Voldemort did find out Snape is toast. And could Snape foresee that neither Narcissa, nor Bella, nor wormtail would ever tell Voldemort about this statement?

And even if he did - we also have the conversation that Harry overheard where Snape was trying to get Draco to spill his plans. Why would he do that if he was already briefed by Voldemort? And if Voldemort didn't wish Snape to accidentally mess up Draco's plan, what would be the point of telling Snape about the mission in general but not give any details?

Snape was trying to get Draco to tell the specifics of the method. Furthermore he was trying to refrain Draco from making stupid mistakes, certainly a helping hand. But he was not trying to hinder Draco or to stop him, all in accordance with getting knowledge from Voldemort to prevent Snape from incidentally stopping Draco. The details were not given by Voldemort to Snape before spinner’s end because it wasn’t Voldemort who worked out the details but Draco, and he hadn’t done so at the time of spinner’s end.

[Shewoman]

Voldemort was displeased with Bella and Lucius; part of Bella's antagonism towards Snape in Spinners End seems to be that she thinks he now holds her place as Voldemort's favorite (although I think she's wrong). Odds are she and Narcissa wouldn't have a chance to tell Voldemort Snape already knew about the plan (and why would they, since they don't question Snape's statement that he's been told?)--but they'd be idiots if they did, since Voldemort had told Narcissa not to tell anyone. That would just get them into deeper doo-doo with him.

We know Snape was trying to get details from Draco, using "helping hand" as a (failed) ploy to get him to spill. We are not told whether his motivation was to help or hinder him; so it's a detail that can be used on either side of the argument.

[staniw]

Originally Posted by Shewoman

but they'd be idiots if they did, since Voldemort had told Narcissa not to tell anyone.

Bella wouldn’t. She even tried to stop her sister and a perfectly good opportunity to get in Voldemort’s graces again. Besides Bella is insanely loyal to Voldemort, she wouldn’t hesitate to tell Voldemort something of great importance even though she knows she could be punished herself. But most importantly: you’re forgetting Wormtail.

We know Snape was trying to get details from Draco, using "helping hand" as a (failed) ploy to get him to spill. We are not told whether his motivation was to help or hinder him; so it's a detail that can be used on either side of the argument.

I would think hinder Draco would lead him in trouble with the vow. But I agree that we don’t know his true loyalties from this scene, I merely used it as an example in a rather long argument why I think Voldemort would tell Snape about plans involving Hogwarts. He would not want Snape (accidentally or on Dumbledore’s orders) interfering and he would not want Snape to lose his position as spy. Telling Snape those plans make sense, then Snape can act according to Voldemort’s wishes. That’s what Voldemort would demand of his spy after all. So that’s the part Snape has to play.

[Shewoman]

I didn't quite forget Wormtail. We don't see or hear from him after p. 24 (US hardback), when Snape casts a spell on the door Wormtail's behind (loud bang, squeal, Wormy running upstairs). It's the second time in a page and a half--maybe 2 minutes of time--that he's used his wand on that door with Wormtail behind it. My take on the bravery of Peter is that he doesn't come down again for awhile and so doesn't overhear the subsequent conversation. The text doesn't say either way--he's not mentioned again--but there is room for my reading. And for yours.

Jo's just too smart.

[justaHPfan]

She's definitely worked overtime to keep us in the dark about Snape! I don't think there's a loophole in anything she wrote that would point definitively towards his loyalty to one or the other. The amazing thing is that, whatever she writes, we'll all buy it because we will then recognize the clues in hindsight. Incredible, isn't it?

I like the point about Snape being told Voldemort's plans in HBP so that Snape wouldn't interfere (he is Draco's head of house), but I could also see this going another way. Voldemort could simply say that Draco has been given a task and Snape needs to make sure Draco has room to complete it (i.e. don't give him detention, allow Dumbledore to get him, etc.) and Snape knows nothing more. Besides, Voldemort believes Snape is loyal to him so, while Snape has to maintain cover with Dumbledore and the Order, he doesn't need to go above and beyond, now does he? Just the minimum - he just needs to not be accessible/available to help Dumbledore when Draco makes his move, whatever the specifics of the plan. I think that Snape played the sisters in HBP and he really didn't know the specifics of Draco's task - just that Draco had been given a task and Snape was to stay out of his way. I think Snape used that to "lie" (with a bit of truth sprinkled in) so that he could get more details - he needed to get more details if he is true to the Order and/or if he just wanted to make sure he wasn't in the dark about something happening in his backyard.

Similarly then, in OotP, I think it's possible that Snape was told only to stay out of the way and make sure Harry doesn't successfully learn occlumency. If Snape had suddenly gotten all kind and nice towards Harry in occlumency lessons, it would have blown his cover with Voldemort. Though, if he didn't try, Dumbledore would have questioned him. Snape's hatred of Harry's father gave him the perfect cover for Dumbledore as to why they weren't successful, and Harry did learn the basics of occlumency from Snape, though it was taught in a very destructive manner, not very conducive for learning - yet, the information was conveyed so Harry could certainly have run with it. But, on the surface, it appeared that Snape was not really trying to teach Harry, which would keep Snape ok with Voldemort. This is where the timing (of when the Order arrived to help) came up - after we discussed occlumency lessons - because we were trying to see if we could use that to determine Snape's true loyalty; but Jo has thwarted us again!

Re: whether or not Snape told the Order members that V had set a trap for Harry: the Order members came in wands blazing and started fighting right away. Now, whether they figured out after they got there that DE's were there and it was a trap, or whether they knew it before, we don't know. That's an interesting question. Dumbledore believes that Snape did warn them it was a trap, but Dumbledore got the info from Kreacher before he got Snape's story so... the potential is there for Snape to have lied to Dumbledore about revealing the incident to be a trap. Of course, the Order members knew V was after the prophecy so knowing Harry went there, they could figure it out, which, again, works well for Snape! HE didn't tell the Order members, Dumbledore told them that V was after the prophecy. And Snape gives a huge sigh of relief... until a few weeks later when some unexpected visitors arrive.

[Blood_River]

Well a fake vision would sort of scream: "TRAP!!!" to anyone with common sense, so I don't think Snape needed to tell them that, once the whole "Harry was lured from the castle" part came out.

[LilyHope98]

Originally Posted by Blood_River

Well a fake vision would sort of scream: "TRAP!!!" to anyone with common sense, so I don't think Snape needed to tell them that, once the whole "Harry was lured from the castle" part came out.

Apart from that, didn't they already know before? I think I remember Dumbledore telling Harry that they were expecting something like this all year and that was why Harry should learn Occlumency.

Sorry if I missed something, I didn't read the whole thread.

[justaHPfan]

Originally Posted by Blood_River

Well a fake vision would sort of scream: "TRAP!!!" to anyone with common sense, so I don't think Snape needed to tell them that, once the whole "Harry was lured from the castle" part came out.

Except we don't know that Snape knew they had actually left. He may have told them about Harry's "vision" and said that, if Harry could leave, that's where he'd be headed, but I'm not sure Snape knew they had actually left the grounds. He told Dumbledore that he, Snape, intended to search the forest so it seems that he at least thought it a possibility they were still in the forest.

Originally Posted by LilyHope98

Apart from that, didn't they already know before? I think I remember Dumbledore telling Harry that they were expecting something like this all year and that was why Harry should learn Occlumency.

Sorry if I missed something, I didn't read the whole thread.

Yes, they knew Voldemort was after the prophecy and they might have known that he would try to use Harry in some way - which is why I did say that the Order would have put 2 and 2 together - I was just speculating on what info Snape volunteered: again to try to determine Snape's loyalties if possible, which I'm starting to see is not!

[staniw]

Originally Posted by Blood_River

Well a fake vision would sort of scream: "TRAP!!!" to anyone with common sense, so I don't think Snape needed to tell them that, once the whole "Harry was lured from the castle" part came out.

Only to those who were aware of the fact that Voldemort could use the connection to sent false visions. The only ones we know of who have that knowledge are Snape and Dumbledore.

Did the order know? Apparently not since they didn’t scream trap when Snape checked the first time around. Otherwise they would have left for the MoM immediately to check out some deatheaters. The question is why Snape, to whom this vision did scream trap, never warned the order the first time around but waited with this warning till Harry didn’t return from the forest.

[Snapes_Angel2]

Originally Posted By staniw
The question is why Snape, to whom this vision did scream trap, never warned the order the first time around but waited with this warning till Harry didn’t return from the forest.

Snape checked #12 to see if Sirius was still there. He must have told them why he was checking up on Sirius, because everyone there knows Snape hates him, and vice versa, so they had to be curious as to why he was checking to see if he was still at headquarters. Snape probably told them that he was going to go look for Harry, because he figured he was still on the grounds. He didn't think they would be able to leave without him knowing it.

So he goes and looks for them, but once he realizes they have left the grounds he runs back and alerts the Order to the fact that they somehow got past him. They agree to go after the kids, and Snape asks Sirius to stay behind to inform Dumbledore of what has happened. Snape may have chosen Sirius for another reason as well. He could have thought it was better that Sirius stay behind so that Ministry officals wouldn't see him and then try and take him back to Azkaban, or try and get the dementors to steal his soul.

[staniw]

Originally Posted by Snapes_Angel2

Snape checked #12 to see if Sirius was still there. He must have told them why he was checking up on Sirius, because everyone there knows Snape hates him, and vice versa, so they had to be curious as to why he was checking to see if he was still at headquarters. Snape probably told them that he was going to go look for Harry, because he figured he was still on the grounds. He didn't think they would be able to leave without him knowing it.

Yes, that is what I think happens as well. But my question is why didn't he told them that Voldemort was setting a trap for Harry at the MoM. After all, if the vision screams trap that would have been valuable knowledge for the order to have at that time. And the fact that the order didn't leave for the MoM after the first message suggests to me that they didn't realise this was a trap.

[justaHPfan]

Well, he might have told them of the trap - but when he left Umbridge's office, Harry and crew were still in there - so Snape goes to a safe place to send a patronus, checks on Sirius, finds out he's ok and then thinks all is well - until his students come find him to get him to get the bat bogey hex off Malfoy and Snape learns Harry is off in the forest. Presumably, this is when he alerts the Order the 2nd time.

[Snapes_Angel2]

Originally Posted By justaHPfan
Well, he might have told them of the trap - but when he left Umbridge's office, Harry and crew were still in there - so Snape goes to a safe place to send a patronus, checks on Sirius, finds out he's ok and then thinks all is well - until his students come find him to get him to get the bat bogey hex off Malfoy and Snape learns Harry is off in the forest. Presumably, this is when he alerts the Order the 2nd time.

Exactly. Snape could have told them it was a trap that Voldemort had set for Harry, but since Snape believed that the kids were still at school they didn't really worry about it. They all thought that Snape would find them and then explain to them that he had checked to see if Sirius was at #12, thus keeping Harry from going to the MOM and being lured into the trap. That explains why they didn't hurry to the MOM after Snape contacted them first.

[Saracene]

Originally Posted by staniw

But Snape could not foresee that when Harry gave the warning. He heard Harry giving a warning and it was unknown to him, at that point, if Dumbledore would not receive an account of what happened in that office. For Snape to ignore that warning would be incredible stupid, to many eyewitnesses were there, which made it more then likely that Dumbledore would eventually hear about it.

But the same eyewitnesses also heard Snape say to Umbridge that he had no idea what Harry was talking about. And no one - Harry, Ron, Hermione etc. - gave any indication that they thought that of course Snape was only pretending not to understand the warning.

Originally Posted by staniw

That was amore likely scenario then that all of the students would join Harry in the ministry. So Snape had to act. Which he did: he checked if Sirius was OK. But he didn’t warn the order that there was a trap plan, that it would be a good idea to go to the MoM and get some deatheaters. A fine balancing act, nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort can complain at this point.

But that's what doesn't make sense to me: if Snape was thinking ahead of how his actions might be perceived by Dumbledore and the Order, wouldn't he anticipate the question "so why didn't you tell anyone about the trap that's been laid out for Harry when you first contacted Sirius?" I mean, what does his "action" consist of, really? He simply went and checked on Sirius - seemingly without doing anything to actually prevent the situation happening.

In fact, to me this looks increasingly like a hole in JKR's storytelling. It looks like a perfectly logical question to ask, and yet not one single character questions it or finds it suspicious in retrospective.

Originally Posted by staniw

That’s the question isn’t it? It is speculation, but no more then that, that Snape had his story ready from the start. If Voldemort didn’t gave Snape orders, if he hadn’t ordered Snape to remain at Hogwarts and things like that one would expect some serious punishment for Snape. But Snape didn’t receive that punishment so he got away with it. He was able to give a satisfactory explanation to Voldemort. That makes it more likely that there were orders from Voldemort how Snape should behave.

But what possible satisfactory explanation could Snape have given that would have saved him from Voldemort's wrath? The plain fact remains that Snape's warning led to Voldemort's plans being catastrophically derailed - he didn't get the Prophecy, he lost a few of his Death Eaters and the Wizarding World knew from then on that he was truly back. I seriously don't think that Voldemort would care one bit about Snape's explanations - he'd never go, oh I suppose it wasn't your fault Severus and you've done your best possible in the situation you were in. No, I think that Voldemort would have been at Snape like a ton of bricks.

So to me the fact that Snape didn't cop punishment points more to the idea that Voldemort was never aware that it was Snape who warned the Order - so he'd never demand explanations from Snape in the first place. In the same way that Bella never asks Snape to explain that point in HBP - because she clearly doesn't know WHY the Order showed up; though she clearly suspects Snape's loyalties she doesn't seem to suspect that the tip-off came from him. When Snape tells her that he'd been given orders to stay behind, he's answering Bella's question of why he wasn't with them at the Ministry - not why he tipped off the Order.

And if Voldemort gave Snape some sort of orders on what he should do if he got involved in the Prophecy scheme, I don't believe that he'd just basically leave it up to Snape to decide when it was safe to warn the Order, or leave the Death Eaters in the Ministry in the total dark about the possibility that Snape might be forced to warn the Order.

Originally Posted by staniw

Canon tells us so. And do you really think it is likely that Snape would lie about that in spinner’s end? If Voldemort did find out Snape is toast.

Snape certainly tells us so - but is there any conclusive evidence outside of Snape's statement that he was briefed about the plan?

Originally Posted by staniw

The details were not given by Voldemort to Snape before spinner’s end because it wasn’t Voldemort who worked out the details but Draco, and he hadn’t done so at the time of spinner’s end.

But I'm referrring to the conversation that happened -after- Spinner's End. So why wouldn't Voldemort let Snape know about the specifics of the plan?

And how can you state with certainty that Draco didn't work out details at the time of Spinner's End? Draco indicated clearly later on that he didn't want his mother to know what he was doing. So the fact that Narcissa didn't know the details indicates nothing IMO.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Saracene

But that's what doesn't make sense to me: if Snape was thinking ahead of how his actions might be perceived by Dumbledore and the Order, wouldn't he anticipate the question "so why didn't you tell anyone about the trap that's been laid out for Harry when you first contacted Sirius?" I mean, what does his "action" consist of, really? He simply went and checked on Sirius - seemingly without doing anything to actually prevent the situation happening.

Alternatively, Snape did explain the trap in rough outline, and also provided the information that Harry wasn't going anywhere in the immediate future because he was safe in the clutches of Dreadful Dolores.

[Maiab]

Originally Posted by staniw

And the fact that the order didn't leave for the MoM after the first message suggests to me that they didn't realise this was a trap.

But the Order, unlike Harry, understood that the DEs couldn't have done anything in the Ministry at 6 o'clock in the evening! Department of Mysteries is well-guarded , the door is protected by powerful spells, people can't just walk in and set traps. It took Voldy almost a year to figure out how to overcome protections and the DEs only got in in the dead of night. Nor did the Order have the authority to enter the MoM and search for DEs there. What do you think would have happened if they were aprehended by Ministry employees while trying to break into the Department of Mysteries? The same thing that happened to Sturgis Podmore, perhaps? Basically, the Order showing up at the Ministry in force was a risk that should have been taken only for a very good reason and only when they could be sure that the DEs were actually there. I don't understand why there wasn't an Order guard at the Ministry (but have shrewd notion that either it was Emmeline Vance and that's when she was "captured" or it was a yet unknown traitor in t he ranks) and/or why Tonks and Kingsley didn't pop in there to monitor the situation from time to time, but this has more to do with Order dispositions than with Snape's actions or inactions.

Re: Sirius, his coming along was counter-productive because it meant that Tonks and Kingsley couldn't call on MoM employees for help even when they had proof of a DE break-in. But I never understood why they didn't leave somebody else to wait for DD in Sirius's stead and to summon some more Order members.

[Saracene]

Originally Posted by Maiab

But I never understood why they didn't leave somebody else to wait for Dumbledore in Sirius's stead and to summon some more Order members.

I never understood why is it that just about anyone - Death Eaters, Harry and his friends, Order members - could apparently just waltz into the Ministry at whim and go pretty much wherever they pleased. I mean sheesh, a school has more defences and checks than what is probably the most important building in the wizarding Britain? Plot convenience or what??

[staniw]

Originally Posted by Saracene

So to me the fact that Snape didn't cop punishment points more to the idea that Voldemort was never aware that it was Snape who warned the Order - so he'd never demand explanations from Snape in the first place.

But this creates the plothole that Voldemort never wondered why the order showed up at the MoM.

Snape certainly tells us so - but is there any conclusive evidence outside of Snape's statement that he was briefed about the plan?

Of course there isn’t. But on the other hand: if Snape didn’t know the plan before he took the vow he also wasn’t told after he took the vow. And in the rest of the book we never have Snape learning about the plan, so how can Dumbledore know about the plan if Snape didn’t?
In the end we have Snape telling us that he knows the plan and we have Dumbledore knowing of the plan. We even have Snape acting on the plan on the tower. We are given a reason why it is so; we are not given anything at all that it happened different from what we are told. It seems reasonable that, in the lack of contradictory evidence, it happened like we were told.

Besides: if Snape didn’t know he would be in big trouble with Voldemort if Voldemort found out. And Snape cannot foresee if this knowledge wouldn’t reach Voldemort via Narcissa, Bella or Wormtail.

And how can you state with certainty that Draco didn't work out details at the time of Spinner's End? Draco indicated clearly later on that he didn't want his mother to know what he was doing. So the fact that Narcissa didn't know the details indicates nothing IMO.

Because he works out the details in chapter 8 Draco’s detour. Before that Draco himself didn’t know if it was even possible.

[Saracene]

Originally Posted by staniw

But this creates the plothole that Voldemort never wondered why the order showed up at the MoM.

Well, I'm sure that he did. I also think that Voldemort assigning Pettigrew to Snape had something to do with him wondering why the Order showed up at the MoM. But I think also that Voldemort couldn't be sure that it was Snape who had warned the Order - especially if he never intended Snape to know the plan's finer details. After all, Snape got involved into the whole thing pretty much by accident. And while we know about the cryptic warning Harry made, I think it's unlikely that Voldemort ever found out about that scene in Umbridge's office.

Originally Posted by staniw

Of course there isn’t. But on the other hand: if Snape didn’t know the plan before he took the vow he also wasn’t told after he took the vow. And in the rest of the book we never have Snape learning about the plan, so how can Dumbledore know about the plan if Snape didn’t?

I'm not actually 100% sure myself whether Snape knew about the plan before the Spinner's End visit. But I think it's entirely possible that Snape could have had a fair idea of what Draco's mission was from his conversation with the sisters.

Originally Posted by staniw

Besides: if Snape didn’t know he would be in big trouble with Voldemort if Voldemort found out. And Snape cannot foresee if this knowledge wouldn’t reach Voldemort via Narcissa, Bella or Wormtail.?

But look at it this way: can Snape, in his role as a spy, -ever- be sure that what he does for either side wouldn't reach the ears of the other side? Dumbledore's words in GoF weren't empty statements: Snape's position always keeps him at great personal risk.