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A Fate Worse than Death



 
 
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  #41  
Old July 7th, 2006, 2:37 am
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim_Reapster
Maybe Voldemort will develop a conscience, and be overcome with guilt and remorse for all his horrorific crimes. In the graveyard scene in GOF, he did seem pretty unnerved when confronted by the ghosts (or whatever) of his victims. If his guilt were stronger than his fear of death, he may even kill himself.
I doubt it. Voldemort wasn't moved by the pleas of a mother. I think he was just scared to see his victims because he thought they could hurt him.


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  #42  
Old July 7th, 2006, 2:58 am
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Re: Worse than death?

No, no you're missing the point! Voldemort is completely and utterly terrified of death. He's so scared he's willing to rip up his soul to survive. If you were that scared of death, how would you react to a group of dead people assembling around you? Particularly if they were your victems and they were back to threaten and insult you. It wasn't that he thought they were a threat, it's because they were dead.


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  #43  
Old July 7th, 2006, 4:52 am
Grim_Reapster  Male.gif Grim_Reapster is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia
I doubt it. Voldemort wasn't moved by the pleas of a mother. I think he was just scared to see his victims because he thought they could hurt him.

Actually, I wasn't being serious, it was just hypothetical. Voldemort's way too far gone to feel remorse, or guilt. He couldn't feel those things even when his soul was complete.


  #44  
Old July 7th, 2006, 6:49 am
NekiaShawdee  Female.gif NekiaShawdee is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

I like the whole dementors idea, but you can't really tame dementors, and Voldemort could possibly gain their loyalties in the seventh book.

Just wondering, but has anyone ever wondered if Voldemort was afraid of bunnies? Their so innocent and he's so evil, hehehehehe.


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  #45  
Old July 7th, 2006, 7:36 am
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Re: Worse than death?

I like the idea of permanently stripping Voldemort of his ability to do magic. Without his power, Lord Voldemort would no longer exist. Perhaps one could call him a powerless Tom Riddle. This would make him a muggle, which is a type of person he finds worthless. Voldemort loves power and fears death. Becoming a muggle would strip him of his power and make him face death. For many of his type, the loss of power and embaressment would lead them to kill themselves; but I believe Voldemort would fear death to much to do that.

Whether this actually could happen or not, I have no idea. But I don't like the idea of Harry casting any killing curses; it seems out of character; in fact, I can't think of any scene in the books where a 'good' guy kills a 'bad' guy. It's damaging to the sould. In addition, it's hard to imagine how Harry could possibly be powerful enough to kill Voldemort by any conventional means. Voldemort is far to powerful. I think Harry has to deceive Voldemort, destroying his power in some fashion that Voldemort can't imagine, or wouldn't believe is possible, or perhaps wouldn't believe that Harry wasn't trying to kill him.


  #46  
Old July 7th, 2006, 8:27 am
TunnelEffect  Undisclosed.gif TunnelEffect is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfJS
I like the idea of permanently stripping Voldemort of his ability to do magic. Without his power, Lord Voldemort would no longer exist. Perhaps one could call him a powerless Tom Riddle. This would make him a muggle, which is a type of person he finds worthless. Voldemort loves power and fears death. Becoming a muggle would strip him of his power and make him face death. For many of his type, the loss of power and embaressment would lead them to kill themselves; but I believe Voldemort would fear death to much to do that.
Indeed, since according to LV neither good nor evil exist, only power and the ones too weak to seek it (roughly since I don't have PS/SS with me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfJS
Whether this actually could happen or not, I have no idea. But I don't like the idea of Harry casting any killing curses; it seems out of character; in fact, I can't think of any scene in the books where a 'good' guy kills a 'bad' guy. It's damaging to the sould. In addition, it's hard to imagine how Harry could possibly be powerful enough to kill Voldemort by any conventional means. Voldemort is far to powerful. I think Harry has to deceive Voldemort, destroying his power in some fashion that Voldemort can't imagine, or wouldn't believe is possible, or perhaps wouldn't believe that Harry wasn't trying to kill him.
Isn't it in HBP, when DD and Harry talk about Merope's life and the fact that she seemed to have lost her powers at some point, that DD says that it can happen in the case of a big disappointment or something like this?

What would happen to LV if he learnt that basically the only things he cares about (his horcruxes), I would dare to say the only things he actually loves, have been destroyed?

That's very likely too simple, and I hope Jo has a more surprising end to the story, but the facts is that loss of power in a wizard has been hinted as a possibility in HBP. Imagine LV as a mortal muggle with a fraction of a soul...


  #47  
Old July 7th, 2006, 4:50 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

I couldn't read all posts, so sorry if I repeat something someone already said.

I think owing his life would be worse than death for Vold. If he has something bigger than his fear of death, it's his pride. If Harry destroyed all his horcruxes and had the chance of killing him, and in the last moment had mercy, it would be too much. Imagine: the-darkest-and-most-powerful-wizard-of-all-ages (that's the way he sees himself) helpless, defeated, at the point of dying at the hands of a 17 years-old boy. And the boy lets him live. At that moment, Vold would prefer death, I assure you.

In fact, I hope it happens this way and Vold suicides. Poetic Justice.


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  #48  
Old July 7th, 2006, 7:43 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MmeBergerac
I couldn't read all posts, so sorry if I repeat something someone already said.

I think owing his life would be worse than death for Vold. If he has something bigger than his fear of death, it's his pride. If Harry destroyed all his horcruxes and had the chance of killing him, and in the last moment had mercy, it would be too much. Imagine: the-darkest-and-most-powerful-wizard-of-all-ages (that's the way he sees himself) helpless, defeated, at the point of dying at the hands of a 17 years-old boy. And the boy lets him live. At that moment, Vold would prefer death, I assure you.

In fact, I hope it happens this way and Vold suicides. Poetic Justice.
I so very much love this idea, Mme - Voldemort owing Harry Potter a life-debt, I can see that as a fate worse than death for Voldemort after years of trying to destroy the Potter boy, all of a sudden he (Voldemort) would now be committing suicide if he succeeded in killing Harry. Poetic justice indeed.

Along that line, I wanted to address Sergey's statement about Voldemort using some other "ancient magic" and therefore bringing about his own destruction. I think he has already begun the steps toward that destruction when he used the "old magic" of the potion and spell to restore himself to a body in the graveyard scene. He used his muggle father's bone, the life-debt owing servant's flesh, and the blood of the boy protected also by ancient magic. I'm wondering how the combination of these three things, with heavy emphasis on Wormtail's life-debt and Harry's magical protection, which by the way will disappear on Harry's 17th birthday, will come into play in Voldemort's defeat.

I wonder whether the brother wands are no longer important, since now the Voldemort body may very well owe Harry a life-debt because of Wormtail's flesh being a part of Voldemort's restored body.

Wouldn't this possibly be a fate worse than death for Voldemort to find out that he in effect committed suicide when he tried this final time to kill Harry, after having been informed by Harry that all his Horcruxes have been destroyed? Now Voldy takes his only remaining soul part into the next great adventure with the knowledge that he has lost the battle for immortality after all.


  #49  
Old July 15th, 2006, 4:27 pm
snuka  Female.gif snuka is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

I don't know...DD keeps emphasizing this "worse than death" thing. So far in the books, I think dementors kiss and what happened to Longbottoms applies to being worse than dying.

I have also considered a non-verbal spell that turns Voldemort into a muggle. Ironic that the greatest dark wizard turns into what he hated the most.

That, or Harry somehow possesses LV's body (like in OOTP only vice versa) and destroys his soul.

But, these don't fit into the "kill or be killed" tone of the prophecy.



Last edited by snuka; July 15th, 2006 at 4:31 pm.
  #50  
Old July 15th, 2006, 7:53 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

Being kissed by a Dementor is worse than death.

I know that Dementors are now on Voldemort's side but who knows what can happen. They seem very wild creatures, they're hard to control. Besides there are always exceptions among magical creatures, Dobby is the best example.


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  #51  
Old July 15th, 2006, 8:23 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

To Voldemort, there is nothing worse than death. To all other people, a life without love is worse. I think that the most efficient way to destroy Voldemort would be to show him real compassion. Sometimes simply loving someone is the way to change them. This being said, I think that Voldemort must die in the end.


  #52  
Old July 15th, 2006, 9:04 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

Hum... good question. He likes both (life and power) so much... But I think his worst fear is death, that was shown by the number of Horcruxes he has made, his wish was to become immortal... And Dumbledore said in HBP in the cave that Voldemort secretly fears darkness and corpse... And darkness and corpse represents death... So, I must admit that his worst fear his death.
However, I don't see what could be worse than death for him... His loss of power AND his loss of soul wouldn't be too bad either... I have to think about that...


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  #53  
Old July 15th, 2006, 9:31 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

Here's an out there possibility for worse than death:

Suppose that Harry is about to kill Voldemort, but then Voldemort possesses Harry to avoid death and his body is destroyed while he's out of it? Possessing Harry causes Voldemort horrible agony, but if his body is destroyed he can't leave it without dieing. He would be stuck, and would eventually be in so much pain he'd acknowledge that this was worse than death and leave, dieing permanently.


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  #54  
Old July 15th, 2006, 9:41 pm
LadyFal  Female.gif LadyFal is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFal
Along that line, I wanted to address Sergey's statement about Voldemort using some other "ancient magic" and therefore bringing about his own destruction. I think he has already begun the steps toward that destruction when he used the "old magic" of the potion and spell to restore himself to a body in the graveyard scene. He used his muggle father's bone, the life-debt owing servant's flesh, and the blood of the boy protected also by ancient magic. I'm wondering how the combination of these three things, with heavy emphasis on Wormtail's life-debt and Harry's magical protection, which by the way will disappear on Harry's 17th birthday, will come into play in Voldemort's defeat.

I wonder whether the brother wands are no longer important, since now the Voldemort body may very well owe Harry a life-debt because of Wormtail's flesh being a part of Voldemort's restored body.

Wouldn't this possibly be a fate worse than death for Voldemort to find out that he in effect committed suicide when he tried this final time to kill Harry, after having been informed by Harry that all his Horcruxes have been destroyed? Now Voldy takes his only remaining soul part into the next great adventure with the knowledge that he has lost the battle for immortality after all.
I found an old JKR interview which shot down my Wormtail/life debt theory with regard to the regeneration potion. Dang and double dang.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlPatronus Here's an out there possibility for worse than death:

Suppose that Harry is about to kill Voldemort, but then Voldemort possesses Harry to avoid death and his body is destroyed while he's out of it? Possessing Harry causes Voldemort horrible agony, but if his body is destroyed he can't leave it without dieing. He would be stuck, and would eventually be in so much pain he'd acknowledge that this was worse than death and leave, dieing permanently.
EDIT: OwlPatronus you are my new hero, I love that idea.



Last edited by LadyFal; July 15th, 2006 at 9:45 pm.
  #55  
Old July 15th, 2006, 10:14 pm
muggl3tt3  Female.gif muggl3tt3 is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Even with his power's gone, Voldemort will still find a way to cause destruction. Like Lupin said, the Dementors kiss is worse than death, but I think that Voldemort has to die. Like the prophecy says, "Neither can live while the other survives."
I was wondering though; would it be best for Harry to try and Kill Voldemort without destroying the horcruxes first? Then like last time, Voldemort can be almost dead, and then harry can destroy the horcruxes, therfore Voldemort will die after the final horcrux is destroyed. I guess, It would be easier to destroy the horcruzes first, and then kill Voldemort.


  #56  
Old July 15th, 2006, 10:32 pm
LadyFal  Female.gif LadyFal is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muggl3tt3
Even with his power's gone, Voldemort will still find a way to cause destruction. Like Lupin said, the Dementors kiss is worse than death, but I think that Voldemort has to die. Like the prophecy says, "Neither can live while the other survives."
I was wondering though; would it be best for Harry to try and Kill Voldemort without destroying the horcruxes first? Then like last time, Voldemort can be almost dead, and then harry can destroy the horcruxes, therfore Voldemort will die after the final horcrux is destroyed. I guess, It would be easier to destroy the horcruzes first, and then kill Voldemort.
If you are referring to the possession scenario as meaning only that his powers are gone, that is a misreading. If he possesses Harry to avoid being in the "killed body," then can't maintain possession of this "love filled body," then he would have to decide - is this level of pain really better than death? If he then makes the decision to leave Harry's body, then the final piece of his soul, the only piece he has ever kept in his own body, can live on as Vapormort again only if there is a remaining Horcrux. If Harry had been successful in destroying all of the Horcruxes before this battle, then finally the Voldemort/Riddle soul will go where souls are supposed to go. Although it would be a nice touch if a dementor strolled by just at the moment the soul left Harry and decided on a quick snack before dinner.


  #57  
Old July 15th, 2006, 10:32 pm
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MmeBergerac

I think owing his life would be worse than death for Vold. If he has something bigger than his fear of death, it's his pride. If Harry destroyed all his horcruxes and had the chance of killing him, and in the last moment had mercy, it would be too much. Imagine: the-darkest-and-most-powerful-wizard-of-all-ages (that's the way he sees himself) helpless, defeated, at the point of dying at the hands of a 17 years-old boy. And the boy lets him live. At that moment, Vold would prefer death, I assure you.

In fact, I hope it happens this way and Vold suicides. Poetic Justice.

Yeah I like that, "Poetic Justice". Besides, if HArry did kill ol' Voldy it would undermine the character, it would be sinking to LV's level. I'm expecting a happy ending to the series.


  #58  
Old July 16th, 2006, 2:26 am
LadyFal  Female.gif LadyFal is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryzen
Yeah I like that, "Poetic Justice". Besides, if HArry did kill ol' Voldy it would undermine the character, it would be sinking to LV's level. I'm expecting a happy ending to the series.
I agree with regard to Harry's character and killing - I can't see how he can murder someone and not be soul damaged. But I can see other situations/magic that would cause Voldemort's death without damaging Harry's soul. I'm hoping for the happy ending. I'm pleading for the happy ending. But I'm not expecting it.


  #59  
Old July 16th, 2006, 2:33 am
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Re: Worse than death?

Loss of power - worse than death? I don't quite agree on this one, and i'm sure neither Voldie nor Dumbledore would.

Dumbledore wouldn't have minded losing all his power, as long as he could still eat sherbet lemons. He's the one who said it, right?

As for Voldemort, he was sulking around powerless for 13 years. He condemned himself to it, by creating Horcruxes to stay alive by all means. I'm sure he could have killed himself during those 13 years, but he didn't.

He chose loss of power.

I think the meaning of worse than death is far more complicated, an emotional feeling, like the power of love, rather than something so simple and obvious as loss of power.

Maybe there's some kind of ancient magic that would cause him anguish and regret, maybe he lost all hopes of an afterlife and is condemned to the world, while knowing that there is something much greater out there which he could have had if his soul was whole...


  #60  
Old July 16th, 2006, 2:45 am
LadyFal  Female.gif LadyFal is offline
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Re: Worse than death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonruby
Loss of power - worse than death? I don't quite agree on this one, and i'm sure neither Voldie nor Dumbledore would.

As for Voldemort, he was sulking around powerless for 13 years. He condemned himself to it, by creating Horcruxes to stay alive by all means. I'm sure he could have killed himself during those 13 years, but he didn't.

He chose loss of power.
Actually, he didn't lose power then either, he just lost the capability of a wand, didn't he make the complaint to his returning DE's that they should have helped him? I can't be positive about the wand, because I'd need better research skills than I have to find the proper quote, but he retained the ability to possess animals and snakes, but that none of these could hold a wand. That tells me that the lack of a body to hold and use a wand prevented him from using his powers. He didn't chose loss of power per se.

He also could not have killed himself during those 13 years because there were Horcruxes around preventing his death...that's the very reason why he was Vapormort for 13 years.

Personally, I think his fear of death is worse than death.


 
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