Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > MuggleNet Editorials > General Editorial > Spinner's End

Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old July 11th, 2006, 7:12 am
navygreen  Female.gif navygreen is offline
MuggleNet Editorial
 
Joined: 3575 days
Location: Bellevue, Nebraska
Age: 34
Posts: 0
Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Discussion for Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus by Lady Lupin.

This discussion thread is specifically for the following sections of the multi-part editorial:

Act III: Humble School Master
Act IV: The Half-Blood DADA Professor
Act V: Snivellus on the Run
Epilogue: Spinner Spun


__________________

My LiveJournal
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old July 11th, 2006, 2:55 pm
SmR  Undisclosed.gif SmR is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3369 days
Location: Mountains
Age: 26
Posts: 6
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

I think it's likely that we haven't seen the last of the Unbreakable Vow - Jo wouldn't introduce something like that without using it at least once more (as has been the case with numerous other magical means) and I think it would account for Snape's actions during Book 6 (as well as his general attitude over all 6 books) fairly well, unlike some other theories which give Snape a bit too much credit for my taste (I still don't think he's completely trustworthy, myself). It also fits with the speculation that Snape will eventually sacrifice himself for Harry's triumph, as his Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa may come into conflict with protecting Harry (he may have to kill Draco, for example).
Brilliant!


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old July 11th, 2006, 3:11 pm
ibnalsaigh ibnalsaigh is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3085 days
Posts: 0
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Interesting read. But in the last parts about Snape's possible actions after Dumbledore's death there is one presupposition which is probably false. "Act V" and "Epilogue" labour under the assumption that Snape's Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa obliges him to protect Draco even after the murder of Dumbledore. I think this is not the case. Read the first part of the UV:

"Will you, Severus, watch over my son Draco as he attempts to fulfil the Dark Lord's wishes?"

"as he attempts to fulfil the Dark Lord's wishes": Even if it reads "wishes" in the plural, this seems to relate just to the present situation. That is corroborated by the third part of the vow which mentions "the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform". The deed.

For sure, the words of the UV can be taken to mean a lifelong obligation, but the context suggests rather a more limited one. This clearly seems to be Narcissa's intention - and intention matters in magic, more than words.


Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old July 11th, 2006, 3:20 pm
lnzucke  Female.gif lnzucke is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3042 days
Location: Illinois, United States
Age: 27
Posts: 1
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

As we move along more into this "story" I have to say it seems to be off base. It seemed at first plausible that Snape could have been protecting Harry, but if we look at Harry's second year, he wants Harry expelled. (the flying car incident; then Professor McG says, "well there will be no need for that seeing as they're in my house.") It would be hard to keep an eye on someone if you expell them from the place you are.

In the Fourth Book, Snape doesn't try to help Potter through any of the tasks, he even scolds Harry and threatens Him after the GillyWeed. I do know harry was thought to be making Polyjuice Potion also. But Snape seemed just as angry about Harry taking the GillyWeed. If I were Snape, and my life were depending on this boy, I would do as Fake Moody and try to help him as MUCH as I could. Remember, if Harry dies, Snape dies in the sceneario set up.

Also, Potter seemed well on the out in out in book five, we find him in the most trouble here. He is on his way to explusion and no one tries to stop him except the friends of potter and Professor McG. They are the only ones who repeatidly remind himwho Umbridge is and where she's from. They clearly tell him over and over to keep his nose clean. Snape, however, does nothing of the sort. That and he does teach him occulemens but fails to keep is temper for the boy. I think if my life were depending on this boy, much as I "hated" (which is a very strong word I may add) him, I would try and keep him as close as possible. after all, they say keep you friends close and your enemies closer. In which case, snape should have kept potter much closer rather than make Harry despise him so much.

So after reading the finished product, I don't think it's so plausible that Snape made an unbreakable Vow to Lily Potter... Too much doesn't add up...

But I was re-reading the fifth book, and I had a question about something:
If you look at Jk's style of writing, she emphasizes some words, italisizes (sp?) them. For example, when Sirius goes with to train station, Malfoy mentions how he'll be "Dogging" Potter. Draco knows about Sirius. When the trio inquire about Hagrid's dissapearence, Malfoy says maybe he's into something "TOO BIG". The Giants... These are all forshadowments of what's to come.
Anyhoo, I noticed that after Harry has the snake vision, Tonks inquires about the vision on the way to St. Mungo's. She asks Harry is he has any Seer Blood. He says no, but Seer is emphsized the same way... Could this foreshadowment of Harry's future? I mean they always say a connection between Hp and Lily's eyes... Or do you think it's its just foreshadowment that what he sees (Sirius at the Ministry) is false?


Sorry, I've written a book myself.

And to ibnalsaigh, I think when she says the dark Lord's wishes, she means whatever Voldemort tells Draco to do. If Draco succeeded where he was bound to fail, Which in a manner of speaking he did (although did not kill dumbledore himself) Voldemort surely has more for Draco to do. And if I were in on this vow, I wouldn't want to test how long I made it for, I would watch my own behind and protect him as long as he's under Voldemorts rule.


__________________
"Do you remember me telling you we are practicing nonverbal spells, Potter?"
"Yes," said Harry stiffly.
"Yes, sir."
"There's no need to call me 'sir,' Professor."

Last edited by lnzucke; July 11th, 2006 at 3:37 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old July 11th, 2006, 3:58 pm
ibnalsaigh ibnalsaigh is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3085 days
Posts: 0
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Another Objection: Well, this is an objection against every scenario that implies Dumbledore preferred to die rather than Snape because of Snape's alleged importance for the Order's cause.

You play up very well both the importance and the difficulty of finding and destroying the Horcruxes. Now, Dumbledore is the only person who can help Harry with that and thus protect him from the potentially lethal effects before he faces Voldemort - you said that too. I can not imagine any possible use of Snape which would equal that.

Let alone the fact that it would be quite cruel and unworthy of Dumbledore to practically force somebody to kill. The means do not justify the ends. That is why Dumbledore made every effort to protect Draco, to protect someone who tried to kill him and did not care for "collateral damage". Just assume that Snape actually is on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore considered him of primal importance. Would it not have been much easier and much better to just let Draco fail? Dumbledore and Snape would still be alive both of them. Dumbledore did not do that.
To kill your comrade in arms (if Snape and Dumbledore ever were that) for the not even certain possibility to contribute in the end to the downfall of your enemy is way too cynical to be an option that Dumbledore would favor. Sometimes you have to accept a possible failure even in your war against evil forces if you do not want to lower yourself to the level of those enemies.


Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old July 11th, 2006, 4:25 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 3553 days
Location: 5 minutes behind everyone else
Age: 56
Posts: 2,720
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Inzucke--Snape heard at least the first part of the Prophecy. He knows that Voldemort believes that Harry is the child referred to there; obviously Dumbledore does as well. He knows he can yell all he wants about expelling Harry from Hogwarts and it'll never happen.

Snape's character is what it is; he's by nature bitter and resentful, one who wallows in his emotions. He has very little control over them. (Neither does Harry, which is why he doesn't practice Occlumency and why the lessons fail.) You're right that it would be easier for Snape to protect Harry if he didn't antagonize him so much. But Snape isn't one to make things easy for anyone--certainly not himself; as a double agent he's always a half-step from doom.

I agree that "the Dark Lord's wishes" isn't necessarily limited as to time. If I'd taken a Vow with such a broad statement in it, for my own safety I'd follow the broadest interpretation. Just to be sure.

Ibnalsaigh, I thought Lady Lupin did a good job of pointing out how Dumbledore's varous agendas came to a head on the Astronomy Tower. She doesn't think that there was a plan between D and S to kill him but that at that point it seemed the only way. I think her point about the necessity of dealing with the Dark Mark and its implications preventing Dumbledore from getting to Snape (who could have cured him of the effects of the Potion he drank in the cave) is a good one. As I read that scene, it seemed clear to me that he was dying on the Tower. We know for sure Snape has a UV with Narcissa, so Dumbledore's death puts both Draco and Snape at risk and, no matter what Snape does, the Headmaster is dying; even if he tried to heal him on the Tower, the DEs there would never allow it. Remember that one of Dumbledore's agenda items has been unifying the Houses and that Draco, for all his bullying meanness, has not yet committed murder (although he has attempted it). Dumbledore was right in his belief that Draco couldn't kill him; he can be "saved." It's possible that he, if he survives, can rally Slytherin to the Order; he obviously has not found service to Voldemort easy and can't help but notice the difference in the way the Dark Lord (who has always had his family's allegiance) and Dumbledore (who knows Draco has tried to kill him) have treated him. It's a long shot . . . but Dumbledore's dying anyway. Taking Snape, the Malfoys, and possibly Harry with him serves no good end.


__________________
WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old July 11th, 2006, 6:00 pm
luvtheheaven  Female.gif luvtheheaven is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3022 days
Location: Fallston, Maryland
Age: 24
Posts: 1
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibnalsaigh
Let alone the fact that it would be quite cruel and unworthy of Dumbledore to practically force somebody to kill. The means do not justify the ends. That is why Dumbledore made every effort to protect Draco, to protect someone who tried to kill him and did not care for "collateral damage". Just assume that Snape actually is on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore considered him of primal importance. Would it not have been much easier and much better to just let Draco fail? Dumbledore and Snape would still be alive both of them. Dumbledore did not do that.
First I'll look at the last thing you said in the section I quoted from you, ibnalsaigh. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that both Dumbledore and Snape could still be alive if Draco didn't kill Dumbledore and Snape didn't do it either. Can anyone explain what ibnalsaigh means?

Secondly I'll look at the first thing I quoted. I like the idea that Dumbledore wouldn't force anyone to kill. But by not forcing Snape to kill him, Dumbledore would have himself been killing Snape! I think that there is a big difference between killing someone who is begging you to kill them (especially when you know they're not suicidal), and truly murdering someone. Not that Dumbledore was necessarily "begging", just that Dumbledore wanted that more than any other outcome at that moment, and in some way or another, Snape knew that.
~~~

Also - I really loved this editorial because it suggests that Snape is out for himself the entire time, but for all intents and purposes, he's more good than evil, and not only must he protect Harry, but if he was able to choose, he'd probably choose to protect The Chosen One over Lord Voldemort! Because it combines the two ideas I've been stuggling to decide on - is Snape just somehow selfish, or is he really a good guy? I never thought he was evil, not when he killed Dumbledore, not ever.


__________________
"'I don't mean to be rude -' he began, in a tone that threatened rudeness in every syllable.
'- yet, sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often,' Dumbledore finished the sentence gravely."
(HBP, "Will and Won't", pg. 46 American Harcover Edition)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old July 11th, 2006, 6:03 pm
misskneazle  Female.gif misskneazle is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3565 days
Location: Chicago
Posts: 91
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibnalsaigh
Another Objection: Well, this is an objection against every scenario that implies Dumbledore preferred to die rather than Snape because of Snape's alleged importance for the Order's cause.

You play up very well both the importance and the difficulty of finding and destroying the Horcruxes. Now, Dumbledore is the only person who can help Harry with that and thus protect him from the potentially lethal effects before he faces Voldemort - you said that too. I can not imagine any possible use of Snape which would equal that.

Let alone the fact that it would be quite cruel and unworthy of Dumbledore to practically force somebody to kill. The means do not justify the ends. That is why Dumbledore made every effort to protect Draco, to protect someone who tried to kill him and did not care for "collateral damage". Just assume that Snape actually is on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore considered him of primal importance. Would it not have been much easier and much better to just let Draco fail? Dumbledore and Snape would still be alive both of them. Dumbledore did not do that.
To kill your comrade in arms (if Snape and Dumbledore ever were that) for the not even certain possibility to contribute in the end to the downfall of your enemy is way too cynical to be an option that Dumbledore would favor. Sometimes you have to accept a possible failure even in your war against evil forces if you do not want to lower yourself to the level of those enemies.
I agree with you. How in the world could anything have been made better by a spoken or unspoken plan between Dumbledore and Snape. If anything Dumbledore's death makes things much more complicated for everybody who might have been protected by an unbreakable vow. If Voldemort expected Draco to be killed in his attempt to kill Dumbledore, he will be angry that he is still alive, and possibly angrier that Snape killed Dumbledore when he couldn't accomplish it. So it spares Snape and Draco for a bit of time, but if Voldemort is angry at them both, what is to stop him from killing them now? Even if he doesn't decide to kill them, will he trust Snape anymore? Doubtful. He would more likely regard Snape as a threat which again defeats the purpose of Dumbledore's death being for the greater good. I cant see Dumbledore not forseeing any of this, he knows Voldemort well. As paranoid as Voldemort is, I cant see him still trusting Snape, after all he tried to kill a baby he thought to be a threat to him. So in what way is Snape's life now more valuable then Dumbledore's? In what way is Harry's path to the Horcruxes going to be less difficult? I fail to see it.


Not to mention I have issue with the unbreakable vow to protect Harry. I agree with the poster that thinks Snape gets too much credit. It's interesting(and I have mentioned it before), that Snape leaves before the rest of the Death Eaters on the tower, if he knew Harry was there-which I tend to agree with-then why did he leave someone he was supposedly protecting, in such a vulnerable situation? How could he assume that Harry would be safe, knowing that a battle was going on downstairs? Yes, he stopped the Cruciatus curse from being performed on Harry, but where was he when that werewolf came flying at Harry, or how about that Avada that just missed Harry? Seems to me his primary concern was to protect Draco and Draco only, and only when Snape saw Harry being attacked did he act, but not out of protecting Harry, out of reminding the others that their orders were to leave Harry and to get out of Hogwarts before the ministry made it there.


__________________
Sneaky Nasty And Pure Evil

I TRUST HARRY POTTER
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old July 11th, 2006, 8:28 pm
ibnalsaigh ibnalsaigh is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3085 days
Posts: 0
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Explanation for luvtheheaven:

Quote:
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that both Dumbledore and Snape could still be alive if Draco didn't kill Dumbledore and Snape didn't do it either.
They could still be alive on the assumption that Snape did not have an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. I know that this is not the case, but I was trying to look at the question from Dumbledore's point of view, because I was questioning the probability of Dumbledore acting like Lady Lupin believes him to have done. I do not think that Dumbledore knew about the vow, so it should not have influenced him in determining what course of action to take.

Even if Dumbledore knew of the vow or had a strong suspicion, I think he would not have assented to Snape killing him, if he had had a choice up there on the Astronomy Tower. It would have been much more humane to let Snape die from a breach of the vow (he had committed himself to without necessity) or at the hand of Voldemort (whose follower he became by his own faulty choice) than to make him kill an innocent. Snape's death would have been the result of his own past actions, whereas the murder of Dumbledore is a further evil that Snape has inflicted not only on Dumbledore but on his own soul. To induce somebody to do such evil, to make somebody do something from which his conscience will ache for evermore is certainly worse than to kill him in defending one's own life.


Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old July 11th, 2006, 8:40 pm
hulagirl hulagirl is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2992 days
Posts: 0
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

inzuke, very interesting about the italics. You may be onto something. Although I am not one hundred percent certain that Malfoy was talking about Sirius. I believe it more likely that dogging was a reference to Fenrir Greyback or werewolves in general as "too big" was a refernce to the giants. After all Sirius is only of minor concern to Voldemort at this junction, a tool if you will. The werewolves, as the giants, are a weapon of consequence and Malfoy would just love to rub Harry's nose in the fact that he thinks he is in Voldemort's close confidence. As for seer, there was an editorial that claimed that Petunia was a seer. JKR has always been adamant that Petuniawas not a squib, well of course not, she was born of muggle parents. A squib is a non-magical person born of magical parents. Jkr was also adamant that Petunia couldn't do magic. What if there was seer blood somewhere in the Evans family? The full brunt of the magic landed with Lily but what if Petunia was a sensitive, or medium. Not magical enough to make prophecy's and the like but enough to get occasional bursts of otherworldness?

To move onward I do not believe that Dumbledore would ever put someone under a UV. Nor do I believe Lily would either. Nor would anyone in the order that we have met. Maybe Umbridge would but she is not in the order but she is not out for the death eaters either. My position is that Dumbledore was taking advantage of the UV that Voldemort would/may have put on Snape. (For the life of me I don't know why he didn't UV every DE the moment they entered his service but that is another debate) I believe it likely that Snape does know about the Horcruxes (although maybe not the exact numbers) and perhaps helped Voldemort place protections on them (see the editorial about the drink being the draught of living death) Being under a UV Snape cannot tell Dumbledore where or how to destroy the Horcruxes but he is certainly in a position (in fact the only one) that can cure Dumbledore since he will know exactly what the protections are. Hence why Dumbledore insists on Snape after drinking the lake water. A UV is way over the top for Dumbledore but he has shown no aversion to veritaserum. It would be a simple matter to question Snape under a veritaserum to see if his pledge to the order is sincere. He would not be able to tell the order about this for many of the order might take it into there heads to dope Snape, make him spill the truth about the Horcruxes, and, not so incidently kill off a former death eater to boot.


__________________
"All those who would hold Magic's Power must then pay Magic's Price" Mercedes Lackey
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old July 11th, 2006, 9:20 pm
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 3554 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

I really liked these last two acts better than the earlier ones. I also believe that Dumbledore did not know about the unbreakable vow between Snape and Narcissa. I also do not believe that Dumbledore wanted or asked Snape to kill him. I agree with what you have written for when Snape gets to the Tower. I think he had to size up the situation really fast, realized he was backed into a corner, did not want to kill Dumbledore, but realized he had to. He is a Syltherin after all, and did not want to die. And I think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to protect Harry and maybe continue to be a spy. I don't believe that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him.

The idea of Snape taking an unbreakable vow to protect Harry is not a popular one. But I think it explains a lot about Snape and why he continues to protect Harry, even though he hates him. He may not have taken it with Dumbledore, but it seems he did take it with someone.



Last edited by SusanBones; July 11th, 2006 at 9:22 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old July 11th, 2006, 9:44 pm
hcnbedbugs's Avatar
hcnbedbugs  Female.gif hcnbedbugs is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3103 days
Location: In a land far far away...
Posts: 330
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

I thought that this was very well written and nicely thought out. I always enjoy your editorials L.L.

Some one posted earlier that Dumbledore would not force someone to kill, well I would think of it more as Dumbledore forcing someone to live.
Part of the UV with Narcissa says that is Draco fails at his mission Snape is to complete it for him. If he did not Kill Dumbledore he would have died then right? I do not think that Dumbledore would let this happen. I know that he knew he was important to the downfall of the DL but he would never let someone he cared about die.


__________________


These violent delights have violent ends
And in their triumph die
Like fire and powder
As they kiss
Consume
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old July 11th, 2006, 9:46 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 3553 days
Location: 5 minutes behind everyone else
Age: 56
Posts: 2,720
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

ibnalsaigh, Susan Bones, why don't you believe Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow between Snape and Narcissa? When Harry tries to tell him about it he cuts him off.


__________________
WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old July 11th, 2006, 10:09 pm
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 3554 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
ibnalsaigh, Susan Bones, why don't you believe Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow between Snape and Narcissa? When Harry tries to tell him about it he cuts him off.
The biggest evidence to me is the conversation between Draco and Dumbledore on the Tower. Draco tells Dumbledore that Snape took an unbreakable vow with his mother, and Dumbledore says something like, "well, that is what he wanted you to believe". Then Draco says something about Snape being a spy and fooling Dumbledore.

And I just can't believe that it would sit well with Dumbledore to know that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him.


Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old July 11th, 2006, 11:05 pm
SmR  Undisclosed.gif SmR is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3369 days
Location: Mountains
Age: 26
Posts: 6
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

RE: Hulagirl - I'm not sure what Aunt Petunia being a Seer would add to the overall plot of the books...though there is supposedly "more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye [heh, "eye", interesting]" I highly doubt it's anything like that - little or no canon evidence to support it, for one thing.
Also, JKR said (when asked why Veritaserum isn't asked to question criminals on trial) that it's possible to develop defenses against Veritaserum, especially (I would imagine) in the case of such a gifted Occlumens as Snape. Plus, there are apparently antidotes to Veritaserum as well - in HBP Harry suggests using it on Slughorn to get the memory and I'm pretty sure Dumbledore mentions something about Slughorn carrying around an antidote. Anyway, I'm sure Snape, as the Potions Master and no doubt slightly-unhinged-by-now double agent has probably carried an antidote around with him in case of any Umbridge-esque, less-than-subtle attempts to find where his loyalties lie.
Anyway, I've drifted a bit, sorry... I think Dumbledore did know about Snape's Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa - could Harry really let Dumbledore cut him off before he'd told him that? He'd've probably vented a paragraph or two at how nobody listens to his Snape/Malfoy suspicions...And even if Snape's Unbreakable Vow didn't sit well with Dumbledore - as he says to Draco on the Astronomy Tower, he couldn't do anything to show he knew about it since Draco would then be killed by Voldemort. (My rule of thumb with Dumbledore, and Snape too - never assume that they've shown all their cards. Dumbledore was just trying to placate Draco on the Tower, not really bothered with trying to convince him of Snape's loyalty, hence the somewhat weak defense.) So anyway, Dumbledore had to make do with what he had - and since there was no way out for him on top of the Tower anyway...well, y'all know the rest.



Last edited by SmR; July 11th, 2006 at 11:20 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old July 11th, 2006, 11:52 pm
focusf1 focusf1 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3151 days
Posts: 0
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Thank you so much for a filled in blanks account of events from the POV of Snape. Only since I have started reading fanfics about the most important character in the books behind Harry, have I come to understand that this character has a psyche (as you put it) and that we need to stop looking at what Harry's POV says and read for ourselves.


I read this and was nearly brought to tears :

"Snape fires off the Avada Kedavra. The force of it, filled with years of anger, resentment and strain, lifts the fragile Headmaster right off his feet."


You write so well and it reminded me of thoughts and emotions evoked when I was actually reading the books. Great stuff - your way is how I have interpreted the texts thusfar and while many think that rose-tinted glasses are involved - I don't care.


Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old July 12th, 2006, 1:05 am
hendu hendu is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2981 days
Posts: 4
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

I don't think the reason that snape protects Harry is because he performed an unbreakable vow with Lily. He protects Harry because he owes James a lifedebt that he did not repay. In fact he is the reason that the Potters are dead. Now he owes Harry. It will be very interesting how book 7 plays out. I would like to see Snape help Harry with the Horcuxes.


Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old July 12th, 2006, 2:03 am
ColdIron  Male.gif ColdIron is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 2968 days
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 32
Posts: 71
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

I must congratulate LadyLupin for her analysis of the events at the Astronomy Tower. The explanation fits very well and explains most things without having to place unrealistic feelings or actions on any character.

However, I disagree that Snape had an Unbreakable Vow previously with Dumbledore or Lily. It seems to be too Dark a piece of magic for them. I think the Blood Debt combined with remorse over Lily's death are the real reasons Snape followed Dumbledore. (I think Snape's Worst Memory is just that because that is when he lost everything with Lily, and James won in the end.) I think Dumbledore was able to recognize true remorse and trusted Snape as such. This plays into the 'redemptive pattern to Snape' quote that shocked JKR so much.

This implies that Snape's big moment in Book 7 will be showing Harry his remorse over his parent's death, and convincing Harry to trust him again because of that.


__________________

HP Personality Type: ENTJ - Minerva McGonagall
Yeah, it fits. Just ask MY former students.
http://piratemonkeysinc.com/quiz.htm
Godric's Hollow and Godric Gryffindor: If it looks like a Chekovian Gun, and smells like a Chekovian Gun....
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old July 12th, 2006, 2:05 am
bribe
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

There are a number of flaws and inconsistancies in the arguments presented in this editorial. The most obvious is that Snape probably knew all along that Wormtail was a death eater. It does seem likely that Snape and Wormtail were the only two deatheaters taken to Godric's Hollow. Even if Snape didn't know Wormtail was there he should have realised it whe he saw the outline of the figure accompanying them. Following on from this Snape should have known Sirius was innocent. If he did then he (Snape) is guilty of complicity in Sirius' murder at the ministry.

Clearly, your editorial is aimed at Snape being on Dumbledore's side at least in part but the evidence still indicates that this is merely a front. I doubt very strongly that Snape made an umbreakable vow with Lily or Dumbledore but, if he did, then it could not have involved Harry in any way. Any vow involving Harry would surely have been broken the minute Voldemort entered the Potter's house since he went there specifically to kill Harry.

After carefully considering the arguments presented in this editorial I am forced to conclude that they are probably wrong and amount to only speculation with little basis in fact. Snape is certainly a mysterious character but it appears to me that his sole concern is for himself and how he is going to keep himself safe - the classic Slytherin trait of self-preservation above all else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lnzucke
Anyhoo, I noticed that after Harry has the snake vision, Tonks inquires about the vision on the way to St. Mungo's. She asks Harry is he has any Seer Blood. He says no, but Seer is emphsized the same way... Could this foreshadowment of Harry's future? I mean they always say a connection between Hp and Lily's eyes... Or do you think it's its just foreshadowment that what he sees (Sirius at the Ministry) is false? [/color]
For quite some time now I have held the opinion that Harry is a Natural Seer who has correctly seen many events which there was no normal way for him to be aware of. Even though many of these are related to his connection to Voldemort I beleive that some could not have been through this connection.



Last edited by bribe; July 12th, 2006 at 2:13 am.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old July 12th, 2006, 2:14 am
hulagirl hulagirl is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2992 days
Posts: 0
Re: Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

As far as the Veritaserum goes: I'll admit to the fact that there is an antidote and that Snape could certainly brew it up. But then you would think Barty Crouch Jr would know the same? So let's negate the serum (which I admit is conjecture) and work with a UV from Voldy. Although Snape is prevented from telling where, how to access, and how to destroy a Horcrux the facts that he is saving Dumbledore from the aftereffects (namely death) of destroying one and not letting Voldemort know that Dumbledore is on to the little secret is a big booster in the trust department in my book. Before Dumbledore death the horcruxes existence were not known to anyone except Dumbledore (and Snape) and eventually Harry. To let knowledge of the existence out to more than a few people would be treacherous and jeopardize Snapes double agency and possibly his life. Canon states that Dumbledore said the Snape regretted his decision to tell Voldy the prophecy and Dumbledore believed him. Some people are pointing to Lily being the only reason but it could be any number of other reasons. Perhaps that was the first time that his actions as a Death Eater had direct consequence in the loss of life and he, like Regulus, wanted out. I mean after all there were/are CHILDREN (namely Neville and Harry) involved. Perhaps he regretted having betrayed Dumbledore the only man who ever gave a darn? Or perhaps he did weave a tale of love for Lily as surmised. And Dumbledore believed him because Dumbledore believes in love. Could that have been Dumbledore rather large mistake being as he is rather more cleverer than most wizards? Anyway I am hijacking LL editorial. It did make me think and she did a great job putting it together.


__________________
"All those who would hold Magic's Power must then pay Magic's Price" Mercedes Lackey
Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > MuggleNet Editorials > General Editorial > Spinner's End

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 8:39 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright its respective owners.