Assuming Harry or his scar is a Horcrux.

[Baron_G]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

I'm certain that Dumbledore used other means than a killing curse to deal with the ring.

The diary did not have a mark on it. According to an interview with the book artist, the crack in the ring was drawn before he had even read the book yet. He was told to draw a cracked ring, how it turned out was entirely up to him.

The Avada Kedavra usually leaves no mark whatsoever.

Actually, with an inanimate object, the Avada Kedavra usually reacts by bouncing off(golden statue) or setting it on fire(MoM security desk) or blowing it up(James and Lily's house?). It leaves no mark when it kills a living being.

[george70]

I think the answer to the question of getting rid of the Horcrux in Harry is a Dementor. If the Horcrux is Harry's scar, then the only problem is to control the Dementor to 'kiss' Harry's scar but not Harry. That might be the real funktion of the Dementors in the books. Harry has willingly to allow a Dementor to 'kiss' him.

[ronjalina]

Originally Posted by Baron_G

Or if the soul is integral to the living horcrux, it can be torn apart through murder.

So it could be possible that Harrry, as soon as he realizes that he is a Horcrux, tries to find out how to create a Horcrux.
BTW: I assume not every time you commit a murder- whether using the AK or another curse - you split your soul. There has to be a special additional spell or some other kind of magic.
Then, at the final confrontation with Voldemort, Harry kills him and at the same time he severs a part from his soul, namely the part which is Voldemorts soulpiece and creates a Horcrux with an object which he then destroys. Thus Voldemort is vanquished and Harry survives.
This assumes of course that one can define which part of the soul has to be torn away. I just hope this makes any sense.

Interesting though but it occurs to me that the Quirrel example may apply here. Quirrel shared his soul with Voldemort, in a tenuous connection that had to be sustained through unicorn blood. Was Quirrel a temporary Horcrux for the last bit of soul that is his master?

I always imagined that Quirrel provided Vapormort with a body. No soul connection so to say. In that sense Quirrel wasn´t a Horcrux but a "host" for Voldemort.

Anyway, Voldemort eventually chose to leave him. Or it could be argued that reacting to Harry's protection of love and the pain involved, drove them apart.

I think it was the latter. Voldemorts soulpiece couldn´t stand the protection of love. Since he was in Quirrel´s body his pain caused Quirrel´s death and an again bodyless Vapormort dissappeared.

[Pearl84]

We have no canon that merely using the curse will split the soul.

This is true.

But

We also have no canon about how Dumbledore split the ring.

and

I'm certain that Dumbledore used other means than a killing curse to deal with the ring.

are contradictory.

I have tried to explaine this:

Even if Dumbledore had used an Avada Kedavra on the ring, he wouldn't have split his soul.

by this sentence:

And as a living soul, however mutilated, it must be destroyed through murder.

However, Baron_G gives me a possible argument:

Actually, with an inanimate object, the Avada Kedavra usually reacts by... setting it on fire.

Hence Dumbledore's burned hand.

So my arguments are weak and my theory highly probably debunked, but like I said, it's a crazy theory. I too do not believe that Dumbledore would use an Unforgivable Curse and I believe he knew a way to destroy Riddle without using them.

I would therefore like to continue with the actual subject, because I don't think this theory bears much fruit.

P.s. Ronjalina, in Chapter 23: Horcruxes, HBP, Dumbledore says (translated): "I am convinced he wanted to use your death to create his 6th and last Horcrux."

[SCARLETT1]

Why I think Harry' Scar is 'The Accidental Horcrux':

Third person to first person....Harry and Voldemort's intensified connection:

In GOF Harry is able to "sense" Lord Voldemort in his dreams, but notice how Harry views the death of Frank Bryce...he sees the death in the THIRD PERSON...Harry watches the scene as a bystander, not unlike how he views events in a pensieve. Then notice a change....in OOTP Harry now sees events unfold in the FIRST PERSON, that is HE views events in his dreams as if he is Lord Voldemort...when Arthur is attacked HARRY is the snake, he isn't watching as a bystander anymore. Why the change?

The only thing I can figure is that at the end of GOF Voldemort uses Harry's blood to regenerate himself. Did Voldemort enhance the connection by taking Harry's blood? It has been argued by other posters in this thread that Harry is not a traditional horcrux, but he does share a 'soul-mind' connection with Voldemort that is very unusual in the wizarding world. I think that the change in Harry from GOF to OOTP enhances this theory. But does this mean Harry is an accidental horcrux or simply deeply connected to LV?

The GLEAM:

In GOF (696 paperback)There is an unexplained "gleam" in Dumbledore eyes, is this because when Voldemort shared Harry's blood he only deepened his connection with Harry? I think we all agree on this point.

Dumbledore realizes the extent of the deepened connection in OOTP when Harry views Arthur's attack through possessed Nagini (essentially LV's) eyes...
Did the tinkering with the instrument in OOTP signify that Nagini is a horcrux... OR DID Dumbledore NOTICE THAT CHANGE IN HARRY'S DREAMS-that is that Harry was now viewing events in the first person (notice how Dumbledore appears very concerned that Harry views the events in the first person, he notices the change since GOF) Did Dumbledore tinker with the instrument in order to validate the "gleam"?
That is was his suspicion that Voldemort had made another grave error by taking Harry's blood reinforced? Now Voldemort and Harry were connected, but in essence divided?
Did Dumbledore know that Voldemort has sealed his fate by taking Harry's blood...now the Prophecy was completely fulfilled...only Harry could destroy Voldemort because only Harry was uniquely qualified to do so as Harry and Voldemort share the same blood and their connection is enhanced?

I believe the answer is yes, but does this mean Harry is a horcrux?

I can only make this assumption: If Harry is a horcrux, that portion of Voldemorts soul lies dormant inside him unless it is triggered. Only when Lord Voldemorts presence is near or his emotions are aroused does the scar burn-the scar is an "alarm bell" it burns and causes pain to Harry signaling the presence of Voldemort or Voldemort emotions when they are particularly acute.
It is true Harry felt as if his scar was going to "burst open" when he was possessed by Voldemort because the alarm bell was raging full force. When Voldemort possesses Harry "Harry did not know where his body ended and the creatures began. They were fused together.."
But they could not remain fused because when Harry thought of Sirius his heart filled with Joy, Hope and love. SO it appears that Voldemort CANNOT survive in his last "horcrux" as long as Harry’s soul and being is side by side with Voldemorts, so I guess you could say "one cannot live while the other lives.." sound familiar?

However, I would venture to say that there are very few who Voldemort could possess for any length of time…that is why he created horcruxes in objects. Could Voldemort possess Hermoine or Ron, no, for the same reasons he cannot fully possess Harry, the difference is that they do not have a scar that burns intensely, and that is the key.

As a devil's advocate I must say “aha” exactly, Voldemort cannot possess a human very long so why make a human a horcrux! I would agree, Voldemort probably did not desire to make a human horcrux because 1) it looks like it has never been done, so 2) who knows what the consequences would be, Voldemorts greatest fear would likely be transferring his powers to someone else and therefore GIVING SOMEONE ELSE THE TOOLS TO DEFEAT HIM. Also a human is weak, a human dies, then what would happen to the horcrux?

This question leads me to another….if the horcrux were attempted on a human, would it attach to the body or the soul….no one knew but I think we now know, the horcrux would attach to the essence of the person, essentially splitting the soul, sharing it with another…Voldemort would not want this, wouldn’t doing this give that person the power to defeat him, give him the abilities that only the great lord voldemort, the heir of slytherin, possesses? I digress...

Therefore it would have to be an accident, an unintended consequence of the rebounded curse..we know almost nothing about the horcrux curse other than a murder is necessary and there were two murders that night...the soul is split and the horcrux curse directs that portion of the soul into an object or if this is true a person--encasing the split soul.

lets revisit the one Horcrux we DO know about that Harry destroyed...


You see in COS a portion of the soul resided in the object of a diary, however it was simply a vessel waiting to be filled, a trigger waiting to be pulled, The Horcrux when in an object does not have a mind of its own, it needs an accomplice, the diary needed Ginny's soul, maybe a "soul exchange." Tom riddle materialized more and more the closer to death she became, eventually her death would have made the process complete.

So again, in order for the Horcrux to be activated and used to house Voldemorts soul, it appears a soul must be sacrificed.

If Harry were a horcrux would not Voldemort have only to destroy Harry's soul to reclaim Harry as a horcrux ? Then it wouldn’t matter if Harry was filled with love….But how can he destroy Harry’s soul and still retain the portion necessary for him?

But hey, all we know for sure and we can all agree on is that "Voldemort put a bit of himself" in Harry and no one, not even Dumbledore knows how it happened. I think the connection can be explained via a horcrux. It can also be as simple as Dumbledore has told Harry, but I lean towards Harry as the 'accidental horcrux'.


I can't help but wonder how Harry knew what to do in COS. How did he, a 2nd year at hogwarts, know how Tom Riddle?
"while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he had had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten"...(COS)

How did he SOMEHOW know how to destroy the horcrux??
"then without thinking, without considering, as if he meant to do it all along, Harry seized the basilisk fang on the floor..." (COS)
How did Harry know parceltongue?
Why did the sorting hat see the mind and talents of a slytherin inside of Harry? Here is my farfetched idea:
Lily's protection covered Harry and he was not touched by the Avada Kedavra curse it bounced off Baby Harry...but when it hit Voldemort who morphed into 'vapormort' LV's soul was spilt and Harry became the conduit for this piece of LV's soul, the mark on Harry's forehead does not represent the bachfired Avada Kedavra curse per se but of the piece of soul left dormant inside him--leaving Harry a unintended horcrux.

I think it is back in the vestiges of his mind is Voldemort, lying dormant with just a small piece of a soul that can only become whole when the horcrux is properly activated.

Voldemort cannot fully possess Harry, but a horcrux isn't a simple possession, I think it is a small deposit, Voldemorts actual soul or original soul can only possess the weak, like Quirrell, or simple animals and rodents..

Activating a horcrux I think we will find is more complex than mere possession.


I would like to end this long posting with this passage:
"a tiny puff of pale green smoke issued from the minuscule silver tube at the top...after a few seconds the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke....a serpents head grew out of the end (voldemort) opening its mouth wide...the smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes...(Voldemort splits its soul with Harry)..with a look of grim satisfaction Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap...."

That night Voldemort split a piece of his soul with harry, why did Dumbledore say "in essence divided" does that mean that they are connected but in essence divided, that neither can live with the other (neither can possess the other), why the look of grim satisfaction? I can only guess...

If Harry is a horcrux......
On Voldemort’s side it is clear that he must personally destroy Harry Potter but retain the soul he has transferred inside if he is ever to be able to function again as a “complete” entity.

So long as Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle are a hybrid entity, one but as Dumbledore said “in essence divided” they can never truly be free.
The question whose answer is now far more difficult to anticipate is whether Harry Potter himself is to survive the final confrontation....but that is for another forum....

Scarlett

[FBAWTFT]

Ok, i'm new to this disscusion thing but i can't believe every one is missing a vital point which shows harry is not an intentional horcrux (if one at all)...... just hear me out...
in HBP pg473 Dumbledore says that voldemort was intending to make the final horcrux with harrys death but failed... Nagini was the last horcrux made

Quote "i am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death...he failed...he used Nagini to kill an old muggle man, and it might then have occured to him to turn her into his last horcrux."

assuming dumbledore is correct then that means the unknown horcrux was made before voldemort went to kill harry in godrics hollow showing that harry can't be the unknown horcrux... it just wouldn't make sence!

oh, and this kind of links....everyone knows harrys eyes are significant... i was thinking that maybe his eyes "absorbed" the green avada kedara curse... which is why his eyes are green????? i'm probably wrong....just a thought!!

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by FBA***T

Ok, i'm new to this disscusion thing but i can't believe every one is missing a vital point which shows harry is not an intentional horcrux (if one at all)......

to the forum!

We are not debating the viability of Harrycrux, that discussion is closed. This thread is set up assuming Harry/scar is a horcrux and the thread rules clearly state:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

1. Discuss the how and why of Harry being a Horcrux in some way.
2. This is NOT a debate thread arguing against the idea. "Assuming" is the operative word.

[Pearl84]

Scarlett1, won't you like to join as a proponent of the H.T.A.H.T.?

I agree with your thoughts to a great extent, but I think that with Riddle's split soul, it might be impossible for him to become whole again, like Harry. I believe he would have to destroy his own horcruxes, thereby setting these soulpieces free and make a lot of good karma to attrack these soulpieces to his core soulpiece. Because Riddle's hatred and anti Love, it would take him more then a lifetime to heal himself even if he destroyed all of his Hrocruxes.

[crazy_ned]

Hmmm... now I'm wondering if it's possible that Voldy could actually turn back to the good side, if he really wanted to. Surprise ending, perhaps? Could the Prophesy be referring to Harry's and Voldy's souls, and not their physical bodies? By somehow causing Voldy to become good (and become Tom Riddle once more), would that be the equivalent of Harry destroying Voldy? Perhaps Voldy's body will die, and the only way he can survive is to remove his last soul bit from Harry's scar and become good.

I know, corny ending, but you never know... Also a lot of shades of Star Wars, probably too many.

[MeMyselfAndI]

I don't know about him turning to the good side. That would be entirely unsatisfactory to so many people and JKR has made so many statements about Voldemort being evil. The idea that Voldemort will die and Tom will live makes more sense, but I don't ever think he'll become good.

[doug_rogers]

And all precedent suggests that Voldemort is a wizard that one can only be rid of, not "absorbed".

This is wandering into speculation without canon. This is opinion.

As a character, we want to be, and could be, rid of Voldemort. As a theme, that of Evil, we will never be rid of Voldemort.

Rowling has said that her Christian beliefs would give away the ending. Evil will never be gone until we all each of us find it in ourselves and forgive it. Isn't this a Christian message?

If the spell between Harry and Voldemort is somehow incomplete, still active, explaining the connection, all that needs be done is to complete the spell or use the connection to advantage. We don't need any new magic, only an explanation of the one extant.

[Kaiden]

I have to say that I am a firm believer in the 'accidental horocrux' theory. I was in fact talking with a bunch of my HPRP online group of friends about this exact topic, and 80% of us, believe this theory. It would make sense as to how and why Harry is so in tune with Voldy's thoughts, and actions...

[crazy_ned]

Originally Posted by doug_rogers

Rowling has said that her Christian beliefs would give away the ending. Evil will never be gone until we all each of us find it in ourselves and forgive it.

As in Harry discovers Voldy's soul within himself, and forgives?

[SCARLETT1]

Pearl 84:

As I am a firm believer I should be a member of the HTAHT.

I don't want to go too far into this as it is for another forum, but I believe the power Harry has that the Dark Lord knows not is LOVE, love will be the destruction of Voldemort, Harry as a horcrux really works well with this theme because Harry will likely have to make a supreme sacrafice to destroy the piece of TR/LV's soul which is inside him, again as I wrote above Harry is uniquely qualified to do so as he has within him the spirit and skill of Lily and James AND the skill and knowledge of LV/TR.

At a recent dinner party several HP fans and I debated how can Harry destroy Voldemort as Harry is not nearly as clever, HTAHT I think explains how Harry can destroy Voldemort...again that topic is for another forum.

Scarlett

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by Baron_G

It leaves no mark when it kills a living being.

The crack in the ring was being compared to the mark on Harry's head. There is no specific mark that can be attributed to the curse. If an Avada Kedavra had been aimed at the ring it would have been pulverized. That's why I felt sure that hadn't been the way Dumbledore removed the horcrux from the ring.

Originally Posted by ronjalina

I assume not every time you commit a murder- whether using the Avada Kedavra or another curse - you split your soul. There has to be a special additional spell or some other kind of magic.

Canon tells us otherwise. Murder tears the soul. The horcrux spell takes advantage of that tear to extract the soul.

Originally Posted by FBA***T

oh, and this kind of links....everyone knows harrys eyes are significant... i was thinking that maybe his eyes "absorbed" the green avada kedara curse... which is why his eyes are green????? i'm probably wrong....just a thought!!

His mothers eyes were green.

[Idabomb333]

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

Canon tells us otherwise. Murder tears the soul. The horcrux spell takes advantage of that tear to extract the soul.

Careful. I think you're correct and well-grounded in thinking that murder always tears the soul, but there is some debate over the interpretation of Slughorn's statements on the matter. Instead of asserting what canon tells us, I think it would be better policy to post the quote and say how you interpret it.

HBP Horcruxes, American hardback p. 498 "Splitting [the soul] is an act of violation, it is against nature." "But how do you do it?" "By an act of evil -- the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion --"

Some people claim they think the wording means that the murder sort of perforates the soul, and the Horcrux spell, the encasement spell, actually separates piece from piece. I think that the wording definitely means the murder separates piece from piece, especially considering the section about the Horcrux maker using the damage to his advantage. I think if the encasement spell did more damage to the soul, he would have said something more like, "... would take the damage a step further."

[ComicBookWorm]

I don't see the difference between what I said and what you posted. Since canon doesn't say the soul is merely perfed, I would have to assume that it is torn. I said the soul is torn and the horcrux spell removes it. I think the encasement spell is yet another step. You have to first remove the torn piece and then encase it. The horcrux spell would have to be some ugly dark magic since it extracts a piece of soul. The encasement spell could be a benign sealed spell.

[doug_rogers]

Posted by: crazy_ned

As in Harry discovers Voldy's soul within himself, and forgives?

Being overly Literal about it, no, Thematically, Yes.

[Baron_G]

Originally Posted by doug_rogers

This is wandering into speculation without canon. This is opinion.

As a character, we want to be, and could be, rid of Voldemort. As a theme, that of Evil, we will never be rid of Voldemort.

I see what you're getting at but I do have canon backing me up. Any possession attempt by Voldemort/Tom Riddle was only thwarted by getting rid of him. Harry destroyed the diary to save Ginny and his power drove Voldemort from him at the MoM. Occlumency or the calming of the mind is meant to prevent Voldemort's influence, which seems to be based on the largely eastern theme of meditation.

I think JKR's point is that love can get rid of evil and protect you from it. Dumbledore doesn't intend for Harry's love to forgive/accept Voldemort. In fact, from what he said, he counted on Harry's love for his parents to drive him to finish Voldemort irrespective of the prophecy.

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm

The crack in the ring was being compared to the mark on Harry's head. There is no specific mark that can be attributed to the curse. If an Avada Kedavra had been aimed at the ring it would have been pulverized. That's why I felt sure that hadn't been the way Dumbledore removed the horcrux from the ring.

The golden headless statue wasn't pulverised. The golden centaur was. So we can't really say what would happen when it hits things it's not meant to. And does a horcrux have living characteristics because of the soul within? Meaning an Avada Kedavra could partly rid it of the soul and partly damage it as it would a normal object it cannot "kill", being something of a failed curse. The diary had some living characteristics. The soul fragment's memories manifested themselves as ink that bled out in spurts when Harry destroyed the diary.

I don't believe Dumbledore used the curse either but I don't think the comparison can be dismissed just like that.

[ComicBookWorm]

I was making an assumption based on how powerful the curse is. I think something as a small as a ring would not fare well. Surely some other spell would be used to break into the ring. Harry only needed a Basilisk fang for the diary.