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  #81  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:35 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

Annachie, Snape was trying to teach Harry Occlumency, not Legilimency. We know Draco is an Occlumens but I can't see him as a Legilimens, not at his young age. You're right about Bella, though. I don't think LV would want a mass of his DEs to have the ability to lie to him, so I think Bella is the only other one Harry will have to worry about reading his non-verbals.


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  #82  
Old April 16th, 2007, 5:07 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

not a lot, i think he'll start practising and using non-verbal spells, occlumency is out of the window, harry is simply to full of emotion to be able to channelise his mind. Jo also said in her interview, that harry has learnt more than he thinks he has learnt, if its not clear to harry, then its pretty unclear to me as well.


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  #83  
Old April 16th, 2007, 12:31 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by magia View Post
not a lot, i think he'll start practising and using non-verbal spells, occlumency is out of the window, harry is simply to full of emotion to be able to channelise his mind. Jo also said in her interview, that harry has learnt more than he thinks he has learnt, if its not clear to harry, then its pretty unclear to me as well.
I agree that Harry will start practising the non-verbal spells.
I think that will be a major factor for him !


  #84  
Old April 16th, 2007, 1:12 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

More than anything else, Harry needs to learn better and darker spells. I mean, there is no point closing your mind to protect your spells, if you don't have spells!!
The only dark spell Harry knows is Sectumsempra. As, we all have seen, Harry can't use the UCs.
So, for me, Curses/Hexes/Jinxes are much more important.


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  #85  
Old April 16th, 2007, 2:30 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by Refinnej7 View Post
I think he does need Occlumency, I think he will want to improve on this skill; at the end of HBP, Snape is able to mentally block his curses before Harry even finishes saying them. As good a wizard as Snape is, Voldemort is ten times better. He as a much better Legilimens, and without better practice, without being able to throw Voldemort out of his mind, how will Harry be able to overtake him?
Harry doesn't need to throw Voldemort out of his mind to overtake him, hence he doesn't need Occlumency which is something that he cannot accomplish even if he tried. There is a way to destroy Voldemort, but attempting to shut him out will be a fruitless effort because for one, Voldemort had taken the initiative to block him out, second, Harry needs to learn the ropes with a much more important power that he has taken for granted thus far (love), third, as beneficial as the skill of Occlumency may be, Harry prefers to have his emotions up his sleeve and he does not like having to clear his mind, much like how he prefers flying than Apparition despite the latter being quicker and more useful.


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  #86  
Old April 16th, 2007, 3:16 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

If there's one thing that Harry needs to know, it's how to cast spells without his wand. That's the only way he can fight Voldemort. If he tries to use his wand, unless he catches Voldemore off guard (which is highly unlikely), the two wands will cancel each other out like they did in the graveyard. We all know that it is possible to cast spells without a wand. Every day wizards like Lupin do it all the time. Non-wand spells, while hard, are not impossible. In the end, knowing how to cast thoughs could be even more important than non verbal spells.

However, non verbal spells will also be important to Harry's quest. Yes, they're not as important and wandless magic, but they are extremely helpful. If Voldemort knows what spell Harry is about to cast, then he could eaisly deflect it.

Which is why Occlumency could be helpful. Yes, if he doesn't learn it, he could still win. But you have to understand, if he could shut out his mind, then Voldemort would have no clue of his next move. There would be no way Voldemort could enter his mind.

...And Yet...

Would it be so bad if Voldemort did infultrate Harry's mind? Think about it. The last time Voldemort infultraited Harry's mind, the love caused him so much pain that he couldn't even stay there. Yes, Voldemort could attack his mind from afar, implanting false memories and dreams. But by now, Harry should be able to tell if Voldemort is attacking his mind or not. Whether or not he does...well....I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


  #87  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:32 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

It would be even better if he could be an animagi. That would be very helpful for him. Something like an owl, eagle, snake etc. And that's where McGonagall comes in. Wow..this'll be interesting!


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  #88  
Old April 16th, 2007, 4:57 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by magia View Post
Jo also said in her interview, that harry has learnt more than he thinks he has learnt, if its not clear to harry, then its pretty unclear to me as well.
If anything, I would guess that what she's referring to is that Harry has learned to trust people, to trust himself, to love, and to choose (as Dumbledore says) right over easy. That will probably stand him in good stead when he needs to make tough choices in the future, and will help him be a powerful/effective wizard as well. And he's probably retained a lot more of his book larnin' than he thinks he has- you know how you are able to pull things you learned in school out of the air when you really need them? That might be part of it as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chokito View Post
I agree that Harry will start practising the non-verbal spells.
I think that will be a major factor for him !
Agreed. The new cover sort of intimates that non verbal spells will come into play.

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Originally Posted by PotionA View Post
Harry doesn't need to throw Voldemort out of his mind to overtake him, hence he doesn't need Occlumency which is something that he cannot accomplish even if he tried. There is a way to destroy Voldemort, but attempting to shut him out will be a fruitless effort because for one, Voldemort had taken the initiative to block him out, second, Harry needs to learn the ropes with a much more important power that he has taken for granted thus far (love), third, as beneficial as the skill of Occlumency may be, Harry prefers to have his emotions up his sleeve and he does not like having to clear his mind, much like how he prefers flying than Apparition despite the latter being quicker and more useful.
Yup, that's true. He can welcome Voldemort into his mind and kill him... with luuuuuve

Rather than describing Harry as having emotions up his sleeve, maybe "on" his sleeve- something which I see as a real weakness, actually. Edit: we're saying the same thing. Harry probably senses this as well and that's one reason he broke up with Ginny. What he needs to do is learn to tame his emotions a bit more so that he can use them to his advantage. Aside from love, which will undoubtedly be a large part of his defense plan, Harry's anger/hatred can be a powerful tool. As it's been stated- and I really like this about JKR, because she's suggesting that you can't take death lightly- you can't do the Avada Kedavra without the full-on, meaningful hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbledore_girl View Post
Would it be so bad if Voldemort did infultrate Harry's mind? Think about it. The last time Voldemort infultraited Harry's mind, the love caused him so much pain that he couldn't even stay there. Yes, Voldemort could attack his mind from afar, implanting false memories and dreams. But by now, Harry should be able to tell if Voldemort is attacking his mind or not. Whether or not he does...well....I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Yes, but isn't Voldemort now innured to that lovely love now that it's running through his veins as well? Remind me, someone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie_weasley View Post
It would be even better if he could be an animagi. That would be very helpful for him. Something like an owl, eagle, snake etc. And that's where McGonagall comes in. Wow..this'll be interesting!
I agree! I think I stated in another thread that McGonagall will be a useful person to have around in Book 7 and you just reminded me of another good reason why. Not only is she practical, powerful, and a good enough witch that Dumbledore trusted her implicitly, but she probably knows a good deal about animagi- being one herself.


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Last edited by Lillbet; April 16th, 2007 at 5:03 pm.
  #89  
Old April 16th, 2007, 6:18 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbledore_girl
Would it be so bad if Voldemort did infultrate Harry's mind? Think about it. The last time Voldemort infultraited Harry's mind, the love caused him so much pain that he couldn't even stay there. Yes, Voldemort could attack his mind from afar, implanting false memories and dreams. But by now, Harry should be able to tell if Voldemort is attacking his mind or not. Whether or not he does...well....I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Voldemort would know better by now. He is well aware of the fact that Harry is capable of distinguishing between reality and false dreams, and knowing Voldemort, he would attempt some other scheme to throw Harry off-track. It is important Harry leans Occlumency for the effective use of non-verbal spells, but chances are he won't because it's just not in him.


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  #90  
Old April 16th, 2007, 8:44 pm
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by PotionA View Post
Voldemort would know better by now. He is well aware of the fact that Harry is capable of distinguishing between reality and false dreams, and knowing Voldemort, he would attempt some other scheme to throw Harry off-track. It is important Harry leans Occlumency for the effective use of non-verbal spells, but chances are he won't because it's just not in him.
i'm with you on this one. in my opinion, voldemort really has nothing to gain through infiltrating harry's mind in dh. he may be somewhat reckless, but he is well aware of the fact that harry has educated himself on whether or not what he is seeing is real or a figment of voldemort's imposed imaginings [is that a word? ]. therefore, entering harry's mind would only serve to hurt him; i can't see him making that decision.

i also agree that harry simply doesn't have it in him to properly master occlumency. as discussed a little bit earlier on in the thread, rowling herself discusses the major issues with harry learning this magical art. as helpful as occluemency would undountedly be, i just don't see is [as far as harry insg it goes] as playing a major role in dh, as there is so much more for harry to do and so much more plot to cover.


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  #91  
Old April 17th, 2007, 1:35 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by Dumbledore_girl View Post
Would it be so bad if Voldemort did infiltrate Harry's mind? Think about it. The last time Voldemort infiltrated Harry's mind, the love caused him so much pain that he couldn't even stay there. Yes, Voldemort could attack his mind from afar, implanting false memories and dreams. But by now, Harry should be able to tell if Voldemort is attacking his mind or not. Whether or not he does...well....I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
The pain Voldemort felt was not from infiltrating Harry's Mind, as he did this to great extent in OotP to lure Harry to the Ministry. The Pain was felt when he tried to possess Harry's soul... quite a difference. The reason Voldemort is no longer going to infiltrate Harry's mind is because Harry could then see what Voldemort was also up to, as his mind would be open to Harry


  #92  
Old April 17th, 2007, 1:52 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

I imagine that if Harry wants to win against an enemy like Voldemort hes going to need to learn alot more and maybe even some dark arts. I think that in book seven harry will have to eventually know and use a unforgivable curse.


  #93  
Old April 17th, 2007, 2:14 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by xFluerDelacourx View Post
I imagine that if Harry wants to win against an enemy like Voldemort hes going to need to learn alot more and maybe even some dark arts. I think that in book seven harry will have to eventually know and use a unforgivable curse.
I agree he will have to sharpen his skills, however I don't believe he will be able to truly use the UC's as this goes against his very nature. When he tried Crucio against Bella all he could manage was a slight grunt of pain from her, then she laughed at him. She stated that he truly had to mean to cause pain which stems from extreme hatred. This is very telling as to how evil you have to be to use these curses as Harry was enraged at her at that time. Obviously anger does not have the same potency as pure Evil, and Harry's natural power of Love makes no room for that.


  #94  
Old April 17th, 2007, 2:22 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by xFluerDelacourx View Post
I imagine that if Harry wants to win against an enemy like Voldemort hes going to need to learn alot more and maybe even some dark arts. I think that in book seven harry will have to eventually know and use a unforgivable curse.
ooooh, that gave me a shiver. what an awful thought, harry using an unforgiveable curse.

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Originally Posted by RustyGoBlue View Post
I agree he will have to sharpen his skills, however I don't believe he will be able to truly use the UC's as this goes against his very nature. When he tried Crucio against Bella all he could manage was a slight grunt of pain from her, then she laughed at him. She stated that he truly had to mean to cause pain which stems from extreme hatred. This is very telling as to how evil you have to be to use these curses as Harry was enraged at her at that time. Obviously anger does not have the same potency as pure Evil, and Harry's natural power of Love makes no room for that.
i have to say i'm with you on this one. harry has proven that he is simply not capable of the pure hatred that drives the most effective uc's. he sure has a whole lot to be mad about [his parents, sirius, and now dumbledore to name only the most obvious], but as you said, i think anger is a poor substitute for pure evil that, say, lord voldemort possesses.

i also think that we have to examine the standard reprecussions of harry performing an unforgiveable curse. as is made clear throughout the series, the use of any of these curses is a one-way ticket to azkaban. now, i do have a strong suspicion that the powers-that-be would be willing to allow for some leeway if harry used these to defeat one of the darkest wizards of all time. however, there would be a lot of issues in between that i don't think have any real place in the plot, and thus i assume may be avoided altogether by keeping harry away from the uc's.

in my opinion, this means that harry will be forced to come up with other methods of defeating voldemort and his followers, other than unforgiveable curses. as to what those are, anyone's guess is as good as mine.


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Last edited by iheartmywheezy; April 17th, 2007 at 2:41 am.
  #95  
Old April 17th, 2007, 2:35 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by iheartmywheezy View Post
ooooh, that gave me a shiver. what an awful thought, harry using an unforgiveable curse.



i have to say i'm with you on this one. harry has proven that he is simply not capable of the pure hatred that drives the most effective uc's. he sure has a whole lot ot be mad about [his parents, sirius, and now dumbledore to name only the most obvious], but as you said, i think anger is a poor substitute for pure evil that, say, lord voldemort possesses.

i also think that we have to examine the standard reprecussions of harry performing an unforgiveable curse. as is made clear throughout the series, the use of any of these curses is a one-way ticket to azkaban. now, i do have a strong suspicion that the powers-that-be would be willing to allow for some leeway if harry used these to defeat one of the darkest wizards of all time. however, there would be a lot of issues in between that i don't think have any real place in the plot, and thus i assume may be avoided altogether by keeping harry away from the uc's.

in my opinion, this means that harry will be forced to come up with other methods of defeating voldemort and his followers, other than unforgiveable curses. as to what those are, anyone's guess is as good as mine.

Exactly, I don't see JK turning Harry into what he is fighting. He spared Wormtail because of his Love for Sirius, when he could very easily have let his Godfather kill him.


  #96  
Old April 17th, 2007, 2:46 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Exactly, I don't see JK turning Harry into what he is fighting. He spared Wormtail because of his Love for Sirius, when he could very easily have let his Godfather kill him.
great example. kudos.

harry was not even able to make himself allow someone else to kill pettigrew, knowing the reprecussions for them, and knowing how his long-gone father would have felt about it.

and, of course, this throws back to the whole idea that creating a life debt with pettigrew will pay off in the end [dumbles did say that he may one day be very grateful he made the decision he made...and i, like many other hp fans, no longer take those words in passing]. this may be one great tool he'll both need and make use of.


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  #97  
Old April 17th, 2007, 2:55 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by xFluerDelacourx View Post
I imagine that if Harry wants to win against an enemy like Voldemort hes going to need to learn alot more and maybe even some dark arts. I think that in book seven harry will have to eventually know and use a unforgivable curse.
While it would be in Harry's best intrest to dabble in the dark arts and learn a few dark spells. But it's totally out of Harry's nature. After all Harry's been through, he would never stoop so low as to gain power using dark arts like Voldemort had. Think about it:

In order for Voldemort to obtain the staus of power that he has, he had to split his sould six times (possibly seven times. That is, if Harry's an accidental horcrux. But that's another story). While there is great power obtainable from knowing dark arts, Harry is Dumbledore's man through and through. And Dumbledore would never use dark arts. Which automatically implies that Harry wouldn't either.

As for an unforgivable curse, the same concept applies. However, there may be a few exceptions. For example, in the Ministry, Harry attempted to use crucio on Bellatrix Lastrange when Sirius died. But, that was out of sheer anger and frustration. There is only one person who Harry could build up enough hatred to preform a proper unforgivable curse on...

...The same person who killed his parents...

...The same person who gave him his scar...

...The same person who made him The Boy Who Lived and had seven books written about him...

...Need I say it? Harry Potter cannot and will not preform any dark magic what so ever on any person excet Thomas Marvalo Riddle. A.K.A:

Lord Voldemort.


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  #98  
Old April 17th, 2007, 3:07 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

I don't think Harry will use the UC's. I think the prophecy says something like "he will possess a power the dark lords knows not", and certainly Voldemort is well versed in the UC's.
I think wandless magic will be the most important thing Harry will learn in DH. Occlumency would be a good idea, but I think Harry's given it up for good. And since we know he can do nvbls, I think he'll get much better at them during DH.


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  #99  
Old April 17th, 2007, 3:26 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by gradstudent08 View Post
I don't think Harry will use the UC's. I think the prophecy says something like "he will possess a power the dark lords knows not", and certainly Voldemort is well versed in the UC's.
I think wandless magic will be the most important thing Harry will learn in DH. Occlumency would be a good idea, but I think Harry's given it up for good. And since we know he can do nvbls, I think he'll get much better at them during DH.
I don't know about the wandless magic... It seems as if a lot of writing has gone into the Wand connection that Harry and Voldemort have. That being said, I do think your on the right track as far as Harry using his wand specifically against Voldemort. We have seen the effects of that at the end of GoF, not to mention the Cover art for the US version of DH shows both Harry and Voldemort wandless. I just can't reconcile that Harry will become proficient enough to defeat Voldemort in the Wandless/Non-Verbal spell department.


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Old April 17th, 2007, 3:30 am
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Re: How much does Harry need to learn?

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Originally Posted by Dumbledore_girl View Post
While it would be in Harry's best intrest to dabble in the dark arts and learn a few dark spells. But it's totally out of Harry's nature. After all Harry's been through, he would never stoop so low as to gain power using dark arts like Voldemort had...
well said. yet one more reason. of course, like you said, there are exceptions [his attempts at bellatrix being the one you mentioned, but also the point in time when he attempted to curse snape after snape had killed dumbles, as well]. these exceptions, though, are just that. i don't see harry actually being capable of mustering up enough evil 'oomph' to make this happen, and i don't know that he would really want to, as you point out here.

Quote:
While there is great power obtainable from knowing dark arts, Harry is Dumbledore's man through and through. And Dumbledore would never use dark arts. Which automatically implies that Harry wouldn't either.


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