Is Dumbledore Dead or Alive? v.10

[RemusLupinFan]

Welcome to version 10.

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Here is the previous version: Is Dumbledore dead or alive? v9


Please continue the discussion of whether the great Albus Dumbledore is dead or alive. Remember to keep the discussion friendly and respectful.

[brildenlanch]

I can't believe this thread is at Version 10!

Anyways, I believe Dumbledore is dead. I think the theories people have come up with to prove hes alive are really great, and they make sense. But to me the thing people are overlooking is the fact that if Dumbledore "returns" from the dead, it would just cheapen the huge impact this had on everyone. As much as we don't like to believe it, I think he's really gone.

I believe that the best theory so far was that the water in the lake was really the draught of living death (I think thats what its called). But still, I think Dumbledore was already slowly dying from the curse that affected his arm, and Snape just finished the job to protect Draco. And I also think that Snape is good.

[Hermy_05]

I honestly think he is gone but hey! J.K. Rowling has surprised us all more than once and I also agree with brildenlanch that Snape is good because I truley believe in Dumbledore and if he trusts him so do I.

[RaspberryJam]

Originally Posted by Latisha

It maybe something that he just carrys around with him.

I shouldn't think so. Besides the fact that Dumbledore doesn't seem the type, I don't think it would be a very "wizardly" thing to do. That's why I thought it was odd he had it, it was almost like he had prior knowledge of what was used to protect the locket horcrux. That's kind of beside the point though.

Ok, when you use the Unforgivanle Curse, you have to really hate the person you are killing, right? There is a possibility, that Dumbledore didn't feel it. But, just fake sleep. I mean, there is no evidence that Snape hated Dumbledore...

Note fake Moody's comment about how if everyone pointed their wand at him and said "Avada Kedavra" he would get nothing but a nosebleed. Perhaps a form of foreshadowing?

The point is, we know (in canon) that if you don't mean an Unforgivable it won't work. Thus, if Snape didn't mean his curse (which is very possible and rather plausible) the only thing his curse did to Dumbledore could have been knocked him backwards, causing his to fall.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by bass man789

Now, Snape might be an intimidating character who frightens the Death Eaters but, it doesn't seem all the Death Eaters are convinced that he is loyal only to the Dark Lord. Snape has no Death Eater friends, except perhaps Lucius. Snape reports to the Dark Lord and only the Dark Lord, he doesn't get sent out on missions, he just stays in Dumbledore's pocket night and day. The Death Eaters know nothing of Snape's orders, I don't think the Death Eaters trust him, they might look to him in times of crisis because to them, he is Voldemorts right hand man. But, they don't know anything about him, they think he's a double agent. The Death Eaters don't trust him. Even Bellatrix feels the Dark Lord is mistaken in trusting him.

bass man - I wasn't originally talking about trust among the Death Eaters.....were you? I don't think you can find one Death Eater who trusts anyone else -- especially in their own group. It's not exactly a social club. They know Voldemort would just as soon kill them as not if they slip up, and are probably all suffering from paranoia. I was talking about the fact that the Death Eaters present in the attack at Hogwarts do not cross Snape, they obey him and defer to him. This is because Voldemort has somehow made it clear that he favors Snape at the moment.

Originally Posted by RaspberryJam

I shouldn't think so. Besides the fact that Dumbledore doesn't seem the type, I don't think it would be a very "wizardly" thing to do. That's why I thought it was odd he had it, it was almost like he had prior knowledge of what was used to protect the locket horcrux. That's kind of beside the point though.

A silver knife seems common enough in potion making, so why did Dumbledore have it? Could silver deflect spells?

[RaspberryJam]

Well, we know gold does.

The bottom line is that it would be odd for Dumbledore to carry a knife of any kind, unless he knew he needed it. How else would he know he needed it if he didn't have prior knowledge of the cave? Whether it was for potion making or giving blood, Dumbledore brought a knife along.

[hpislove]

Like I said before, I really think he died, but I think* he has a long connection to phoenixes, and they are healers, so maybe if there is enough magic within many of them, he could come back to life? I know this is not possible for a wizard to do, but maybe a magical creature?

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by RaspberryJam

Well, we know gold does.

The bottom line is that it would be odd for Dumbledore to carry a knife of any kind, unless he knew he needed it. How else would he know he needed it if he didn't have prior knowledge of the cave? Whether it was for potion making or giving blood, Dumbledore brought a knife along.

Yep. Have to agree, that is weird. On the other hand, maybe Dumbledore normally brings such things with him when he searches for horcruxes, we've never seen him on a search before this.

[hpislove]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Yep. Have to agree, that is weird. On the other hand, maybe Dumbledore normally brings such things with him when he searches for horcruxes, we've never seen him on a search before this.

Quite True. I wonder what other tools he took in his search for Horcruxes?

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by RaspberryJam

The bottom line is that it would be odd for Dumbledore to carry a knife of any kind, unless he knew he needed it. How else would he know he needed it if he didn't have prior knowledge of the cave? Whether it was for potion making or giving blood, Dumbledore brought a knife along.

We don't know that it WOULD be odd for a wizard to carry a potions-type knife on a regular basis. A Muggle man with a swiss army knife in a jeans pocket would not be suspected of any odd motives if he happened to have one on him...

ALthough, the knife has been used to support the theory that "Dumbledore" was either Snape or Sluggie on Polyjuice. (Since it would seem the both of them are even more likely to carry a common potion-making tool with them.) Then again, how different is alchemy, one of Dumbledore's magical specialities?

[RaspberryJam]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Yep. Have to agree, that is weird. On the other hand, maybe Dumbledore normally brings such things with him when he searches for horcruxes, we've never seen him on a search before this.

True, but I don't think he brought any other special horcrux hunting tools, at least no others were mentioned.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

We don't know that it WOULD be odd for a wizard to carry a potions-type knife on a regular basis. A Muggle man with a swiss army knife in a jeans pocket would not be suspected of any odd motives if he happened to have one on him...

I was just assuming because I've never known a wizard to carry around a (normally) muggle tool. A knife is primarily a muggle tool isn't it?

I wouldn't put any thought into this if Dumbledore brought a knife wherever he went, but as we know it, he doesn't.

[hpislove]

Well Dumbledore uses various Muggle things other times too. In the sorcerers stone, he offers mcgonagall a lemon drop- and she wasn't even sure what it was because it was muggle related. but now we are starting to get off topic a bit-or at least i am

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by Raspberry Jam

I shouldn't think so. Besides the fact that Dumbledore doesn't seem the type, I don't think it would be a very "wizardly" thing to do. That's why I thought it was odd he had it, it was almost like he had prior knowledge of what was used to protect the locket horcrux. That's kind of beside the point though.

It wouldn't be out of character for the potions master to have one though........ (one more little clue for my Slughorn theory!!! woo hoo)

[hpislove]

Originally Posted by coco1965

It wouldn't be out of character for the potions master to have one though........ (one more little clue for my Slughorn theory!!! woo hoo)

Whats your Slughorn theory?

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by coco1965

Like maybe sneaking up to Tralawny's room and grabbing her????

I'll agree with that. It's definately a very possible theory.

Originally Posted by RaspberryJam

I shouldn't think so. Besides the fact that Dumbledore doesn't seem the type, I don't think it would be a very "wizardly" thing to do. That's why I thought it was odd he had it, it was almost like he had prior knowledge of what was used to protect the locket horcrux. That's kind of beside the point though.

I completely agree I didn't really believe that Dumbledore carried around a knife all the time.

I was thinking, maybe it was from what he found out when he retrieved the ring.

Originally Posted by RaspberryJam

The point is, we know (in canon) that if you don't mean an Unforgivable it won't work. Thus, if Snape didn't mean his curse (which is very possible and rather plausible) the only thing his curse did to Dumbledore could have been knocked him backwards, causing his to fall.

Well, again this could be debatable. Bella in OOTP, was referring to, or her description was that of the cruciatus curse, which I'm pretty sure is her favourite. As for Moody saying that, he said that you need a bit of powerful magic behind it. Not feelings.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by hpislove

Whats your Slughorn theory?

It combines a couple of ideas. For the first part check RAB isn't Regulus thread pg 43 post #847. It was added to on this thread, but I'll have to do a search for that part.

[RaspberryJam]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Well, again this could be debatable. Bella in OOTP, was referring to, or her description was that of the cruciatus curse, which I'm pretty sure is her favourite. As for Moody saying that, he said that you need a bit of powerful magic behind it. Not feelings.

Bellatrix said "you need to mean an Unforgivable!"

And as for Moody, you're right. I was just referring to the nosebleed comment.

[magicalme11]

Although there is alot of evidence pointing to the logic Dumbledore is dead, there is alot of evidence pointing in the directionn of him not being dead. These following points are points i have gatherd from a wonderfull site. In which Dave Harber wrote. I am only posting because i think they are of upmost importantance in determining if Albus Dumbledore is really dead or alive. Props to Dave.

1. Dumbledore's Big Chill

Harry and Dumbledore are up on the top of the tower underneath the Dark Mark. Harry is wearing his invisibility cloak, Dumbledore ordered him to put it on before they mounted their brooms to ride to the top of the tower. Harry hears footsteps and looks around, but Dumbledore orders him with a gesture to retreat. Harry draws his wand and backs away:

The door burst open and somebody erupted through it and shouted, "Expelliarmus!" Harry's body became instantly rigid and immobile, and he felt himself fall back against the tower wall, propped like an unsteady statue, unable to move or speak.(HBP pg 584/545)

It's interesting to note that things are happening so fast, even Harry is momentarily confused:

He could not understand how it happened -- Expelliarmus was not a Freezing Charm -- Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood... Dumbledore had wordlessly immobilzed Harry, and the second he had taken to perform this spell had cost him the chance of defending himself. (HBP pg 584/545)

Why did Dumbledore freeze Harry? Harry was already invisible to their attackers and in no danger.

The only explanation could be that Dumbledore already knew, had already planned, that he would die this night (or appear to die), and not only did he not want Harry to become involved and possibly be injured himself, he needed Harry to be a witness, to be able to tell everyone else what happened.

Dumbledore might have also promised Snape that he would make sure that Harry would not be able to interfere, knowing how Harry feels about Snape and what Snape was about to have to do.

The supposition that it was Dumbledore's plan to do this all along is supported by the fact that he acted so quickly to do it, almost without thinking, when Draco burst in on the scene.

Harry's own assumption that the Freezing Charm was done by Dumbledore is supported by the fact the curse lifted when Dumbledore left the tower minutes later.


2. Fawkes doesn't try to save Dumbledore

We've seen Fawkes come in at the last moment and save Harry's life in Chamber of Secrets:

As Harry trembled, ready to close his eyes if it turned, he saw what had distracted the snake. Fawkes was soaring around its head, and the basilisk was snapping furiously at him with fangs long and thin as sabers -- Fawkes dived. His long golden beak sunk out of sight and a sudden shower of dark blood spattered the floor. (CoS pg 318/234)

And he also saved Dumbledore in Order of the Phoenix:

... one more jet of green light had flown at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck -- Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and swallowed the jet of green light whole. He burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. (OotP pg 814/719)

We know Fawkes was nearby the tower, as he shows up after Dumbledore's "death". So, why didn't Fawkes come to save Dumbledore this time?

I think the fact that he didn't makes it possible to believe that Dumbledore didn't want his life to be saved, and this supports the theory that it was Dumbledore's plan all along to "die" up on that tower that night.



3. Don't Point That At Me Unless You Mean It

Several times in the course of the Harry Potter books, J.K. has told us that the Avada Kedavra is not a curse you can make lightly.

In Goblet of Fire, the fake Mad Eye Moody tells his DADA class:

"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it -- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." (GoF pg 217/192)

And in Order of the Phoenix, we learn more about Avada Kedavra when Harry tries to curse Bellatrix:

Hatred rose in Harry such that he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed "Crucio!" Bellatrix screamed. The spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe or shriek with pain as Neville had -- she was already on her feet again ... "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it ..." (OotP pg 810/715)

If Snape was really working on Dumbledore's orders to make it look to the world as if Snape had killed him, even if he had used the real Avada Kedavra, if he had not really meant it, if he really didn't want to kill Dumbledore, then isn't it possible that the curse didn't kill Dumbledore, but only injured him badly?

4. No Body, No Crime

The last time we really saw Dumbledore's body was when Harry is kneeling over it shortly after he has been killed by Snape the previous day.

Now, we see Hagrid carry the body of Dumbledore into his funeral, but it's covered:

Hagrid was walking slowly up the aisle between the chairs. He was crying quite silently, his face gleaming with tears, and in his arms, wrapped in purple velvet spangled with golden stars, was what Harry knew to be Dumbledore's body. (HBP pg 643/599)

We never really see Dumbledore's body at the funeral. How do we know it was there at all?


5. Caution: Dumbledore Is Flammable

As part of the funeral service, a fire ignites around the body of Dumbledore, and when it subsides, his body is encased in a white marble tomb.

Again, we don't see the body, either before or after the fire.

But more importantly, no one lights the fire, it just happens on its own. A body bursting into flame on its own. That sound like anyone we know? We've seen Fawkes do that several times now in the course of the Harry Potter books, and you know what happens to Fawkes after every time it does.

Earlier in the book, we saw several instances where Dumbledore uses fire, an important aspect of the symbol of a phoenix. When he first meets Tom Riddle in the orphanage, to demonstrate he's a wizard, he sets Tom's wardrobe on fire. And he conjures fire to protect Harry and himself from the infiri in the cave.

And after all this, in case we didn't get the allusions to a phoenix, J.K. reminds us just in case:

White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire had vanished. (HBP pg 645/601)

All these clues seem to suggest that if Dumbledore really did die, he has the ability to be reborn out of the ashes of his death, either under his own power, or with the help of the healing powers of Fawkes.

Besides, even if Dumbledore's body was there when it erupted into flame, we know that doesn't mean anything to a wizard!

Non-magic people (more commonly known as muggles) were particularly afraid of magic in medieval times, but not very good at recognizing it. On the rare occasion that they did catch a real witch or wizard, burning had no effect whatsoever. The witch or wizard would perform a basic Flame Freezing Charm and then pretend to shriek with pain while enjoying a gentle, tickling sensation. (PoA pg 2/7)

So, who do they think they were fooling at the funeral?

[coco1965]

Found the upgraded version!
Seeing as though I haven't had one of my theories torn apart for awhile, thought I would subject myself to some abuse!!! For those who have read it before, sorry for the repeat performance, but seeing as though there are new posters, I figured I couldn't not let them have at this theory too. So I'll repost it............
There is a fair bit of speculation to this theory, but it does tie up some unanswered questions. This
started out as a Dumbledore is alive theory, but it contains things that could answer questions in other threads as well.
This is a bit long and drawn out, I kept thinking of things to add!!! so please bear with I admit that there are also
plenty of holes in it, So, here we go.................
It has been surmised that Dumbledore faked his death. It is also speculated that Snape was involved, as he would be
the one to do the deed. It is my belief that Slughorn knew what was supposed to transpire on the tower, and was to be
a part of it as well, .
To start off, Slughorn may have been in Slytherine, but don't forget that when Harry first met him he said
'don't hold that against me" This implies that he doesn't have all of the Slytherine qualities.
He does like self indulgance, but he also has regret , remorse, and guilt, all three of which are not normal Slytherine
traits (at least not that I have seen) A lot of this also depends on how much of a confidant Slughorn is to Dumbledore.
I do think that Slughorn would have gone to talk to Dumbledore directly, at some point after giving Harry the true memory.
I'm sure he would want to explain things somewhat to his 'friend'. I believe that Slughorn has guilt over more that just
that one memory. I think was he at GH, and was he the one who informed Dumbledore about what happened there?(more on
this later)
Would Dumbledore then confide in Slughorn his horcrux hunt plans about the cave?I think he could have. If he knew
about the potion ahead of time, he very easily could have taken a bezoar ahead of time. (more on this later)
I have two senarios in mind for this next part:
1) Slughorn convinces Dumbledore that he should take his place
on the evenings quest, to try and make up for his past mistakes OR
2) Somehow Slughorn slips Dumbledore a mickey. (This would be more
Slytherine like) Then changes himself into Dumbledore.

This would be when he tells Harry to go get his cloak. (this is big clue # 1) Why would 'Dumbldore tell Harry to get
his cloak, when he already told him to keep it with him at all times?
I really don't think that the real Dumbledore would take Harry to the cave if he hadn't first checked it out ahead of time.
He wouldn't put Harry into an extremely dangerous senario, without first having some kind of idea they would be up
against.This would explain why there was surprise in regards to the traps laid out to get to the locket.
During the swim to the caves entrance,'Dumbledore'shows "agility of a much younger man" (clue #2)
While he is 'carressing the wall, looking for the entrance, his injured hand doesn't appear to bother him (clue #3)
He cuts himself with a little silver knife to gain entrance to the cavern. The knife appears to look like the one Harry
borrowed from Hermione in potions class. Why would Dumbledore be carrying around a knife used in potion making?(clue #4)
There are also the comments 'Dumbledore' makes while in the cave. The "OHO" when he finds the chain. The remark,
"I taught him, I know his style" both used by Slughorn more than once in HBP.(clue #5 &6))
Slughorn was a potions master, he moreso than Dumbledore would be able to descern the properties of the potion.
He would know if it was 'safe' to drink. I think that the initail effects of the potion would still be in affect, especially with
the amount ingested. It could take a while for the bezoar to 'kick in' If you analyze the words said upon drinking the
potion, they sound to me like someone being cruccio'd to give information they don't want to give. It almost sounds
like this person was at HG, and was being forced to reveal information about the Potters, and is trying to get the
torturer to hurt him instead. (clue #7)
(Dumbledore may have done some things in his life that he regrets, and may feel some guilt for, but in all honesty
I cannot imagine anything that would cause him this much anguish)
When they are leaving and 'Dumbledore' say's " I'm not worried I'm with you" Is something the real dumbledore might say,
but in all honesty, this sounds more like something Slughorn would say. Another example of him putting Harry on a
pedistal (clue # 7 1/2)
Now we get to the tower
This is where it gets a little more imaginative
Was there someone else up there?Invisible and waiting ?? (the real Dumbledore maybe?)It would appear that there was. Who
stupified the DE?? (Harry used petrificus totalus on him) Was it the invisible person, who put the body bind on Harry?
and then released it when 'Dumbledore' went overthe edge? Then gently lowered him to the ground??
All though it was edited out of most versions, the line about " They can't kill you if you are already dead" is out there, and
I think it parallels Draco and Regulus. Slughorn was head of S house whild Regulus was at Hogwarts. If there was
anyone that a Slytherine student would trust, due to the dark side connection, it wouldn't have been Dumbledore, it
would have been Slughorn. Slughorn hid him (clue # 7 3/4)
There has been a lot of heated discussion about the Avada Kedavra, and how it behaved differently. This would answer all of the
inconsistancies. The Avada Kedavra hit the locket! (if Snape could zap flies, I'm sure he could zoom in on the locket) It was the
distruction of the horcrux, and the protections on it that caused 'Dumbledore' to get blasted up in the air and over the
edge.
There is three options for where this could go from here.
(1)Slughorn actually dies at the bottom of the tower,and Dumbledore now becomes Slughorn via polyjuice
(2) Dumbledore drinks the DoLD, and takes his place on the ground.
(3) They are both OK, they made the switch and Dumbledore is in hiding

The 'body' was laying under the tower for a while, before anybody found it. Plenty of time to transform/conjure the fake
locket and the note. The 'mortal once more' implies that the note was written after his re birth. "when you meet your match"
implies knowledge of the prophecy. ( clues #8 & 9) Although some parts of the note don't appear to fit (yet) I think that
Slughorn could be RAB (and yes I know the initails don't fit) But the note also says " I will be dead long before you
read this" This would fit if Slughorn realized he was dieing from the fall off the tower/ potion combo

Now we're in the hospital wing.....Fawkes starts singing, Madam Pomphrey bursts into tears (happy or sad?) because
Fawkes has started singing. Was he reversing the effects of the DoLD? How much time passes I'm not sure before
Hagrid ( I would entrust him with my life) enters, and says he's moved HIM. Where did he move HIM to? ( his hut is
unplotable) He has also met up with Slughorn at some point, who said the ministry has been informed. Where and
when did he run into Slughorn? In his unplotable hut?(clue #10) Now for the third option: was this where the
Dumbledore /Slughorn switch was made?

Now we're in Dumbledores office. McGonegal glances once at the portrait, "makes an odd movement as though
steeling herself" She then imediately wants to know what they were up to.This gives me the impression that there
is something not quite right, about the portrait. (clue #11)
Now Slughorn enters, looking the most shaken , pale and sweating (what was he doing to cause these symptoms,
as he wasn't part of the battle) (clue # 12)His first words "Snape! I taught him I thought I knew him" (me thinks thou dost protest
too much) Also almost verbatum to what was said in the cave.(clue # 13 ) When It comes to the discussion about the funeral,
Slughorns reaction is odd. In a rather agitated voice, he say's "I suppose......yes....." My first thought upon reading
this was him thinking, 'oh great now we have to come up with a body!!! (clue #14)( option one from above)

We now move to the day before the funeral. Harry is thinking about Dumbledore and the funeral. He is finding it "hard to
believe that Dumbledore had really gone.Admittedly he had not, as he had with Sirius, looked desperately for some kind of
loophole, some way that Dumbledore would come back" This made me think there was a loophole out there. Also the
use of the words would come back instead of could could come back. Two completely different meanings
(clues #15 & 16)
Now to the funeral itself. I found it odd that his body was brought forth wrapped in purple velvet. He wasn't mangled up
or disfigured, so why wasn't his body laid in state for everyone to pay their last respects???( clue #17) We were told
about the hero Odo's funeral from Slughorn, wouldn't Dumbledore fit into the hero category? (What did happen to his
wand??)
From this point forward, I haven't completely filled in all the blanks, so I'll just put forward the inconsistancies that could
lead to possible answers.
We have been told directly from JK that that Dumbledore's patronus is a pheonix. I believe there was another
quote, but I can't find it in regards to both.To paraphrase, there is a deeper connection between Dumbledore and
pheonixes (it was discussed to great length in another thread, but I can find them either!) Anyways, I think it was more
than coincidence that the white tomb burst into flame. Was it also coincidence that an apparent patronus in the form
of a pheonix is released at precisely the same time? (was dumbldore ablr to break through the DoLD and send word
he was alive)If Dumbledore did send it, who did he send it to. Fawkes? Snape??
Now for the last point, What was the purpose of Dumbledore telling Harry about Raspberry jam??? Was he being cheeky
because of the pointless ministry flier, or would there be a time in the future where Harry would need to know that it was
really Dumbledore and not an imposter.....( this fits with both option 1 and 3 above)
So there you have it!! My take on some of the the events. Please feel free to agree with any or all of it OR tear it to pieces
as you so desire and see fit.
Coco.

[LdyDumbledore]

Magicalme11 ~ are you really Dave Haber?