Is Dumbledore Dead or Alive? v.10

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Really? How the Pensieve? Do you expect to spend chapters in the pensieve just looking at different memories like we already did in HBP? I don't. Do you expect everything Dumbledore has to share to come in a letter and be revealed in that method? I don't, that would be too boring, and all of the informatiom would come in one sitting. I really don't know how a lot of the information can be explained.

Wow! Deja vu all over again!

All I was trying to point out is that Dumbledore is no longer needed. Anything that Harry needs to learn, he can learn either from other Order members or something left from Dumbledore. I, on the other hand, would rather have letters or something left from Dumbledore rather than the already used fake (or otherwise misleading) "death". I think that JK is a better writer than to let her characters and readers go through a faked death, just for Dumbledore to reappear in the next book. Harry has to go on and take care of business at some point, why not now? Dumbledore has always been there to rescue Harry at the last moment. In that post I said nothing about using the Pensieve or staying there for chapters. I think that the letters between Dumbledore and Petunia might be important for obvious reasons. Why do you think that if JK took that route it would be boring? So far in the previous 6 books I have not been bored. She surprises me most of the time. How do you know that JK can't go the 'letter route', but put a twist to it? Harry may even learn a lot from Dumbledore's brother...

[Numenorian]

Yes rainie, I can see it in front of me; Trelawney doing the prophecy:
Trelawney: A 17 year old boy will have to face Volde...
Dumbledore: white bunny!
Trelawney: A 17 year old boy will have to face Voldemort in the form of a white bunny...
Dumbledore: I didn't change the age, but at least it became a white bunny!
Thus the title of the seventh book: Harry Potter and the ultimate battle against...*you hear thunder and shiver with fear*...The terrible white voldebunny!

[rainie_hp]

Originally Posted by Numenorian

Yes rainie, I can see it in front of me; Trelawney doing the prophecy:
Trelawney: A 17 year old boy will have to face Volde...
Dumbledore: white bunny!
Trelawney: A 17 year old boy will have to face Voldemort in the form of a white bunny...
Dumbledore: I didn't change the age, but at least it became a white bunny!
Thus the title of the seventh book: Harry Potter and the ultimate battle against...*you hear thunder and shiver with fear*...The terrible white voldebunny!

you are crazy.......

[Numenorian]

you think that's crazy? you should definetly read my fanfiction! The link is in my signature!

[rainie_hp]

Originally Posted by Numenorian

you think that's crazy? you should definetly read my fanfiction! The link is in my signature!

okies, lets not chat here though, meet me in the Pitchside thread in Quidditch pitch if you wanna have a chat.

[Numenorian]

Oh no Rainie, you've just eaten my brains!
lol At least I now know that I had brains! thanks! =D

[cruplover]

It may not necessarily be on topic, but I think we might see the pensieve again. Harry's yet to remove himself from one on his own, so it could be interesting if he tries to dive into the pensieve alone. Then, there's the chance that the writing on the outside of the pensieve is in ancient runes, and Hermione will find something wonderful there. However, I don't look to spend a lot of time with the pensieve, and I won't be upset if we don't see it again.

[YaMo]

Mmmm, brains

But eh, Dumbledore is dead, accept it.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by cm2009

All I was trying to point out is that Dumbledore is no longer needed. Anything that Harry needs to learn, he can learn either from other Order members or something left from Dumbledore. I, on the other hand, would rather have letters or something left from Dumbledore rather than the already used fake (or otherwise misleading) "death".

I wouldn't like letters because like I said it would be boring, I agree she could put a twist on it, but how far can a letter go? It can convey fact, but also be misleading, and can not convey feelings.

I think that JK is a better writer than to let her characters and readers go through a faked death, just for Dumbledore to reappear in the next book.

Well we do know that faked deaths are something Jo would do. I mean Peter did it for 12 years.

Harry has to go on and take care of business at some point, why not now? Dumbledore has always been there to rescue Harry at the last moment.

Dumbledore has always been there to rescue Harry? Let see: In PS/SS Harry went down there alone, and fought Voldemort, Dumbledore never appeared until Harry was safe. CoS, Harry fought the Basalisk and Tom Riddle on his own, Fawkes did come, but only because Harry showed loyalty to Dumbledore, not becasue Dumbledore sent him. GoF, Harry was by himself to fight off Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

So the only incident where I see Dumbledore actually resucing Harry was in OotP, Dumbledore has not always rescued him.

In that post I said nothing about using the Pensieve or staying there for chapters.

No, you didn't however if the information is conveyed without Dumbledore, then it will have to be in a variety of ways, because like I said one way will be just boring. And we see how long memories in the Pensieve take, usually one memory is the bulk of the chapter.

I think that the letters between Dumbledore and Petunia might be important for obvious reasons.

I agree, they will be important, but I think for us to understand Lily, and nothing more.

Why do you think that if JK took that route it would be boring? So far in the previous 6 books I have not been bored.

No you may not have been, but I think Book 7 will have more information than the other books, and conveying it all will be tough.

Harry may even learn a lot from Dumbledore's brother...

Yes, he may learn from Aberforth, however how much?

Originally Posted by cruplover

It may not necessarily be on topic, but I think we might see the pensieve again. Harry's yet to remove himself from one on his own, so it could be interesting if he tries to dive into the pensieve alone. Then, there's the chance that the writing on the outside of the pensieve is in ancient runes, and Hermione will find something wonderful there. However, I don't look to spend a lot of time with the pensieve, and I won't be upset if we don't see it again.

I agree, the pensieve can be very boring if we are in it too much.

But can you imagine Hermione and Ron going in with Harry? For some reason I think that would be a fun experience.

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by cruplover

However, I don't look to spend a lot of time with the pensieve, and I won't be upset if we don't see it again.

I agree. I was just trying to use that as an example of how DD might have left something for Harry. If DD is truly dead, then I don't think that Harry can just jump into finding and destroying Horcruxes. Don't get me wrong, Harry has a lot of info whether he realizes all of it or not, but I think that he will need a little more info to be up to the task before him.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by cm2009

I agree. I was just trying to use that as an example of how Dumbledore might have left something for Harry. If Dumbledore is truly dead, then I don't think that Harry can just jump into finding and destroying Horcruxes. Don't get me wrong, Harry has a lot of info whether he realizes all of it or not, but I think that he will need a little more info to be up to the task before him.

Seeing as though we have been told, Harry holds more information than he realizes, I think the pensieve might be used to review Harry's own memories, more so that any Dumbledore might have left. We have picked out more clues, cause we can just re read the books. Taking Ron and Hermione into his own memories,( ) I think, will shed more light on what Harry has to do.

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I wouldn't like letters because like I said it would be boring, I agree she could put a twist on it, but how far can a letter go? It can convey fact, but also be misleading, and can not convey feelings.

I agree somewhat.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Well we do know that faked deaths are something Jo would do. I mean Peter did it for 12 years.

The difference here would be that we learned about Peter's faked death after it happened. We, as the readers, never experienced Peter's faked death, we only learned about it from a biased source. On top of that the faked death has already been used. Kinda like your argument on the Pensieve: it would be boring to me and too predictable IMO.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Dumbledore has always been there to rescue Harry? Let see: In PS/SS Harry went down there alone, and fought Voldemort, Dumbledore never appeared until Harry was safe. CoS, Harry fought the Basalisk and Tom Riddle on his own, Fawkes did come, but only because Harry showed loyalty to Dumbledore, not becasue Dumbledore sent him. GoF, Harry was by himself to fight off Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

I think that you understand what I was trying to say, but you want to ignore it. I ,however, will break it down further. I think that we might be able to agree that Dumbledore has been Harry's mentor. Harry must go alone (but with friends of course). Dumbledore has (an I am sure you agree) been there to give Harry advice; Harry doesn't need that blanket of protection. BTW Dumbledore was the one that rescued Harry from imposter Moody in GoF. Yes, Snape and McGonagall were there, but who was the one that stunned fake Moody?

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

So the only incident where I see Dumbledore actually resucing Harry was in OotP, Dumbledore has not always rescued him.

Hmm...I beg to differ

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

No, you didn't however if the information is conveyed without Dumbledore, then it will have to be in a variety of ways, because like I said one way will be just boring. And we see how long memories in the Pensieve take, usually one memory is the bulk of the chapter.

I agree that the Pensieve would be over-used, but we may be introduced to something else from Dumbledore to Harry. The possibilities are endless.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I agree, they will be important, but I think for us to understand Lily, and nothing more.

Ok

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

No you may not have been, but I think Book 7 will have more information than the other books, and conveying it all will be tough.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Yes, he may learn from Aberforth, however how much?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I agree, the pensieve can be very boring if we are in it too much.

I won't argue that. We may not even see the Pensieve in this next book.

I can't do this alone...another aliver, help please.

[cruplover]

There are plenty of memories which could prove useful to Harry via the penseive, but I'm sure sure how key that is to Dumbledore's status as dead or alive. Even if Dumbledore is alive, Harry might still need or want to use the penseive.

[Tane]

Well if Snape killed Dumbledore with the Avada Kedavra then he will always be a murderer as Dumbledore offered an alternative to helping Draco and no doubt Snape and Dumbledore had discussed the situation before hand as the plan to fake Draco's death seemed to be well figured out while Albus was up in the tower.

Snape would have chosen the easy way out by saving his own neck. Time to choose between what is right and what is easy, Dumbledore said and Snape choose to kill someone which can not under any circumstance be right especially when there where an alternative way of protecting Draco from harm. Snape did not take responcibility for his own actions. For me this makes Snape evil, a coward and fearful of death in the same way as Voldemort is.

The hardest choice would be to accept the consequences of his action but Snape to the easy way out and Sirius if still alive would have not stopped at the gate of Hogwarts going after Severus because Sirius believes that an order member should face death rather than betray another order member.

Originally Posted by i__heart__draco

I think Dumbledore is dead, but there's ONE quote that always lingers in my mind. (Sorry if it's not word for word but it's something like):
"I will have only truly left this school when no one is loyal to me. Help will always come to those who ask for it"
-COS

Hmm? Maybe this is hinting that Harry will in fact return to Hogwarts, to get help from Dumbledore.

I thought about that to and it does hold a lot of weight. It suggests a few possibilities:

1. That he can leave his portrait in Hogwarts if dead because he has another one some where else.
2. He has not abandoned everyone and will come to Harry only if he asks for help, like Fawkes came to Harry at the end of CoS (could this mean Albus is a phoenix now?) and that CoS and HBP are brother books and hence this statement could be foreshadowing his return.
3. If he gets fed up because no one is loyal to him any more he can walk from his grave and leave the school grounds like a good little ghost. Though back story kind of makes this third option less likely.
4. Or he will always be there as long as those who remember him keep his ideals going at Hogwarts.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by cm2009

The difference here would be that we learned about Peter's faked death after it happened. We, as the readers, never experienced Peter's faked death, we only learned about it from a biased source.

Yes, I am not arguing that, because that is canon, what I am arguing is that it is something that Jo does do, we have seen it.

I think that you understand what I was trying to say, but you want to ignore it. I ,however, will break it down further. I think that we might be able to agree that Dumbledore has been Harry's mentor. Harry must go alone (but with friends of course). DD has (an I am sure you agree) been there to give Harry advice; Harry doesn't need that blanket of protection.

I agree, but if Dumbledore is not there, then Harry will be alone. If Dumbledore is dead, Harry will be alone, and if Dumbledore is alive and hiding, Harry will be alone, he will think that he has to do it on his own. Yes Dumbledore has been there to help Harry, but Dead or Alive in Book 7, Harry will be "alone" in the final battle.

Now for the part that I highlighted, you are contradicting yourself. I think that Dumbledore will reveal information to Harry along the way, and allow Harry to fight Voldemort alone, because he must, that is what the prophecy states.

BTW Dumbledore was the one that rescued Harry from imposter Moody in GoF. Yes, Snape and McGonagall were there, but who was the one that stunned fake Moody?

Technically yes, but Fake!Moody would not have been able to kill Harry anyway, because of the prophecy.

Hmm...I beg to differ

Please do!

I agree that the Pensieve would be over-used, but we may be introduced to something else from Dumbledore to Harry. The possibilities are endless.

So are you saying Dumbledore is alive? And he can show stuff to Harry? I am confused. Please clarify.

I can't do this alone...another aliver, help please.

Are you an Aliver? Or are you saying that about me? For the record I am on the fence!

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by Tane

Well if Snape killed Dumbledore with the Avada Kedavra then he will always be a murderer as Dumbledore offered an alternative to helping Draco and no doubt Snape and Dumbledore had discussed the situation before hand as the plan to fake Draco's death seemed to be well figured out while Albus was up in the tower.

Snape would have chosen the easy way out by saving his own neck. Time to choose between what is right and what is easy, Dumbledore said and Snape choose to kill someone which can not under any circumstance be right especially when there where an alternative way of protecting Draco from harm. Snape did not take responcibility for his own actions. For me this makes Snape evil, a coward and fearful of death in the same way as Voldemort is.

If Snape really is good (which I believe) then I think that killing Dumbledore to retain his role as a spy would have been very difficult for him to do. Snape and Dumbledore could have come up with a way of letting Harry and the Order know that Snape is good. Remember JK said that Snape seems to have a 'redemptive pattern' about him. Snape could be extremely useful in the fight against Voldemort if he is good. Think about if, If Dumbledore needed Snape to save his life after the ring Horcrux, then don't you think that Harry will?

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Yes, I am not arguing that, because that is canon, what I am arguing is that it is something that Jo does do, we have seen it.

In this case this 'something' Jo seems to do wasn't a huge plot point. It was a large one, but it doesn't compare to the Dumbledore "faked" death.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I agree, but if Dumbledore is not there, then Harry will be alone. If Dumbledore is dead, Harry will be alone, and if Dumbledore is alive and hiding, Harry will be alone, he will think that he has to do it on his own. Yes Dumbledore has been there to help Harry, but Dead or Alive in Book 7, Harry will be "alone" in the final battle.

So what is the point of faking DD's death then? I think that Harry's friends will be there in the final battle, but Harry must be the one to fight Voldemort.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Now for the part that I highlighted, you are contradicting yourself. I think that Dumbledore will reveal information to Harry along the way, and allow Harry to fight Voldemort alone, because he must, that is what the prophecy states.

No I am not contradicting myself. Ron and Hermione have already stated that they will help find and destroy Horcruxes. They will help: in that case Harry will be in the lead and they will assist him. To me that is quite different from Dumbledore doing the work and Harry assisting him. In other words Harry has to be the one that leads the fight, not Dumbledore. **What I meant is that Harry has to go alone without being under the wings of a more accomplished wizard. I consider Ron and Hermione as his equals. I doubt that Ron will take over the fight against Voldemort while Harry is pushed to the side.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Technically yes, but Fake!Moody would not have been able to kill Harry anyway, because of the prophecy.

In that case Quirrelmort and Tom Riddle wouldn't have been able to kill Harry.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Please do!

I kinda already did with the Dumbledore rescued Harry from imposter Moody.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

So are you saying Dumbledore is alive? And he can show stuff to Harry? I am confused. Please clarify.

No, I have clearly stated that I think Dumbledore is dead and that Snape is good. What I meant was that Dumbledore can provide Harry with info even if Dumbledore is dead. Who says that DD's portrait is like the other portraits? Dumbledore may have juiced it up if you catch my drift.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Are you an Aliver? Or are you saying that about me? For the record I am on the fence!

No. I am a deader. My hands are getting tired and I need help!

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by cm2009

If it were only that easy! The alivers are speculating that Fawkes may have caught Dumbledore and placed him (DD) on the ground. The only response I have is: what is to be gained from DD faking his death? There are ways that he could leave instructions or advice to Harry without physically being around.

If there is a reasonable way to avoid death which does no lasting harm to anyone, in my opinion any sane and reasonable person (both words I would use to describe Dumbledore) would take it. Why choose death, if life is possible? This point of view is not cowardly, it is life-affirming and just plain common sense.

If it were the only way to save Draco, Snape, Snape's cover, and Harry, I would totally agree that Dumbledore would choose to die. (In fact, I believe he DID choose to die, in the precise manner in which he appears to have died, for precisely this reason).

However, if we learn that he did in fact have the foresight or cleverness to figure a way out of the mess of the Unbreakable Vow and the Death Eaters on the Tower, I will be grinning from ear to ear when I read about it in Book 7, not laughing derisively or shooting off a stiff note of complaint to Rowling for besmirching the memory of Dumbledore.

[catbird]

He's dead ******. >.<

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by cm2009

No. I am a deader. My hands are getting tired and I need help!

Be of good cheer, there are lots here (I mean ones who, unlike me, actually argue FOR the deader position...). They'll turn up- eventually!

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

If there is a reasonable way to avoid death which does no lasting harm to anyone, in my opinion any sane and reasonable person (both words I would use to describe Dumbledore) would take it. Why choose death, if life is possible? This point of view is not cowardly, it is life-affirming and just plain common sense.

If it were the only way to save Draco, Snape, Snape's cover, and Harry, I would totally agree that Dumbledore would choose to die. (In fact, I believe he DID choose to die, in the precise manner in which he appears to have died, for precisely this reason).

However, if we learn that he did in fact have the foresight or cleverness to figure a way out of the mess of the Unbreakable Vow and the Death Eaters on the Tower, I will be grinning from ear to ear when I read about it in Book 7, not laughing derisively or shooting off a stiff note of complaint to Rowling for besmirching the memory of Dumbledore.

I also agree that if there was a way to avoid the whole mess, that Dumbledore would be the first to find it and take it. IMO I think that DD realized that it was truly his time to go. By DD dying, Snape has retained his cover and saved Draco. I think that the next book will have Snape revealing himself to Harry. No matter how much Harry hates Snape, Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than anyone in the Order. I think Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts could very much rival Voldemorts. Like I said, if a wizard as accomplished as Dumbledore needed Snape's help, then don't you think that Harry will?

I can't complain about what JK decides to do (not that I am or would) because it is her story.

Originally Posted by catbird

He's dead ******. >.<

Oh goody, someone to agree with! Can you explain your views though?