Is Dumbledore Dead or Alive? v.10

[FleurduJardin]

All the pros and cons on this are fascinating. I don't know what to believe any more. Dumbledore gone for good, Dumbledore coming back as a phoenix, Dumbledore not dead at all?

Best thing for me is to fall back on my pet theory: Dumbledore and Sirius are both going to play a role in the seventh book, acting through the Veil.

[gabrielle10]

Originally Posted by Scantra

Well I sure hope you're right because I think I would die if it was something like this
Harry: I love you Voldy
Voldy: NOOOOO!!!!

Awwww...that would be so cute Harry telling voldi he loves him....if that happens, we'll know that JKR has finally lost it! (it would be quite funny though, eh?

I agree, I mean when Voldy killed lily and James, Hagrid said that the house was destroyed but Voldy only used the Avada Kedavra so maybe the more powerful magic you put into it the stronger the curse

Yes, I agree, he probably has the strongest avada kedavra curse like, ever because he has so much hate inside him

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by MRWHITE213

I agree that Dumbledore is dead. At this point in the story, he has served the purpose of showing Harry with what his going to have to do to defeat Voldemort, and that is find and destroy the Horcruxes before finally facing Voldy himself. As we all know, Dumbledore did not give Harry all the answers as to where the rest of the horcruxes are and how to destroy them. His death searves as a final motivating factor to put an end to Voldemort once and for all. Harry needs to do that on his his own way with his friends and not with the guidence of the old, wise, and powerful mentor. At this point, Harry is not strong enough to defeat Voldemort. The trials that he has to face will be like the forging fires for a sword. They will temper his mind and soul giving him the strenght to face his greatest challenge, the confrontation with Voldemort.

Excellent post

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Excellent post

Thank you. As much as I wish Dumbledore was alive and there is compelling cannon to support it, when interpreted for him to be so, I have to look at it from the point of view of Harry is ultimately the hero. We can all agree there is a ton Dumbledore could have taught Harry, but the hero does eventually have to make it on his own without his mentor. Remember that in this story everyone who has been brave enough and taken a stand against Voldemort are heroes. Even in death, Dumbledore's contributions will assist in the downfall of Voldemort.

[bass_man789]

So, does everyone now agree that if you are strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra you will produce one and if you aren't strong enough to produce one you will give someone a nosebleed? Because if not, just go back and read my posts, I really don't feel like typing that much again.

Snape can't lower his magical strength to perform a curse. Sure, you can hoodwink something into believing you are stronger or weaker but I don't think you can hoodwink yourself.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by bass_man789

So, does everyone now agree that if you are strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra you will produce one and if you aren't strong enough to produce one you will give someone a nosebleed? Because if not, just go back and read my posts, I really don't feel like typing that much again.

Snape can't lower his magical strength to perform a curse. Sure, you can hoodwink something into believing you are stronger or weaker but I don't think you can hoodwink yourself.

Us "Deaders" were with you the whole time. You did take a little bit of a beating for a while there, though.

[Tane]

Slughorn knows his students and he never thought Snape would do what he did to Albus up in the tower. So even Slughorn would never think that Snape would kill Albus, why did Slughorn think Snape did not have it in him to kill anyone perhaps?

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by bass_man789

So, does everyone now agree that if you are strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra you will produce one and if you aren't strong enough to produce one you will give someone a nosebleed? Because if not, just go back and read my posts, I really don't feel like typing that much again.

I assume you read my post earlier today (in response to ErodedCarpet's cool idea of using the Patronus Charm as a model), in which I explained why I don't think so. It was not for lack of reading yours.

We do not actually have enough information to know for sure one way or the other. For that reason, we can expect to have disagreements on issues like these.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by Tane

Slughorn knows his students and he never thought Snape would do what he did to Albus up in the tower. So even Slughorn would never think that Snape would kill Albus, why did Slughorn think Snape did not have it in him to kill anyone perhaps?

The same way that most of the teachers didn't think Tom Riddle would become the most evil and powerful wizard the wizarding world had seen. Heck, there are still people that went to school with Tom Riddle that still do not realize Voldemort is the same person.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by bass_man789

So, does everyone now agree that if you are strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra you will produce one and if you aren't strong enough to produce one you will give someone a nosebleed? Because if not, just go back and read my posts, I really don't feel like typing that much again.

Snape can't lower his magical strength to perform a curse. Sure, you can hoodwink something into believing you are stronger or weaker but I don't think you can hoodwink yourself.

Sorry but I believe zgirnius's idea more than what you say. It makes sense, and I think that magic is magic, so why would the two different spells make a difference?

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I actually think emotion may play a bigger role than that. Using your Patronus analogy (good one! ): we know Harrry is a very powerful wizard, because a Patronus he summoned at the end of PoA was able to chase off a horde of Dementors. (Hermione states this could only be done by a very powerful wizard; I do think this is one of the instances where Rowling is using our favorite know-it-all to provide us with a fact she wants us to know). Yet, there were times Harry failed to produce a corporeal Patronus. Lupin suggested he use a more powerful memory, in one such instance during Harry's lessons. So power is not quite enough, some sort of emotional focus of sufficient strength is also required.

Why do I bring this up? I think it is clear that Snape is a powerful wizard, and Snape has the requisite capacity for hatred. Some might argue that any Killing Curse cast by him would therefore have to be deadly. But I disagree. I think that if he was sufficiently conflicted emotionally at the time he cast such a curse, it could still fail. If he did not want to kill Dumbledore, but felt compelled, for whatever reason, to try, I this this is precisely a circumstance in which even a powerful wizard capable of real hatred might fail. (By analogy to Harry, who has the power and goodness to cast a powerful Patronus, but not it he fails to achieve the proper emotional focus when doing it.)

You make a great point that both power and emotion seem to have an effect on the spell cast. I also do agree with you that if Snape was sufficiently conflicted emotionally when casting the AK it could have failed. I do, however (as I'm sure you already know by my other posts) disagree that Snapes AK did fail . If anything, due to both his power and his conflicted emotions I believe is the reason that the AK threw Dumbledore off the tower. I think because he was not in complete control of his emotions (weather because he did or did not want to kill DD is a debate in another thread) the resulting spell was that much more "dramatic" and just as effective as the just-drop-to-the-ground-dead AK.

[bass_man789]

I've compared the Avada Kedavra to the Patronus Charm before too, I just don't know before or after Eroded Carpet, I guess before, this post was on page six:

Originally Posted by bass_man789

In short:
If you're strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra, then you're going to kill the person you're pointing your wand at (I mean, Harry is strong enough to produce a Patronus Charm and he can pretty much do it with little effort at the end of Book Five, i.e. Defence Against the Dark Arts O.W.L.). If you aren't strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra but hate the person you're attempting to use it on then, NOSEBLEED NOUGAT! (You'll get a nosebleed.)

Everyone possesses hate. Even lovable, pure, good Harry Potter possesses hate. You have to hate, or have some dislike for who you're casting the curse upon. For the Patronus Charm to properly work you need a happy memory to concentrate on and you have to be magically powerful. The happy thought could be flying a broom or killing the Headmaster of Hogwarts, whatever makes you happy will work. For the Avada Kedavra to work you have to have some negative (or even positive if you're a maniac) emotion towards someone; jealousy, hate, or greed. You have to dislike the person you're casting it upon.

Spells that require something more than words. The Summoning Charm, Harry had trouble with it but, after using it and practicing he got to the point where he can do it easily. The same most likely holds true for the Patronus, and all Unforgivables. They require thought, concentration, or other intentions. But, after using them for a while, you become accustomed to doing them and can easily pull them off. Now, we don't have any evidence Snape has murdered before but, I guess we can assume he did since he was a Death Eater. He must likely is comfortable using Unforgivables just how Harry is comfortable performing the Patronus Charm, unless of course, he gets attacked in an alley way in a Muggle neighborhood and gets punched in the side of the head, falls to the ground, and looses his wand.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

Sorry but I believe zgirnius's idea more than what you say. It makes sense, and I think that magic is magic, so why would the two different spells make a difference?

Are you asking why the Cruciatus and Imperius are different than the Avada Kedavra (I don't think this is it becuase that's three spells)? If so, just read what Moody says on the Avada Kedavra:

The Goblet of Fire, The Unforgivable Curses, page 217 U.S. Hardback Edition "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it...."

He never says you need to be powerful to produce the Imperius or Cruciatus curses.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by MRWHITE213

As much as I wish Dumbledore was alive and there is compelling cannon to support it, when interpreted for him to be so, I have to look at it from the point of view of Harry is ultimately the hero. We can all agree there is a ton Dumbledore could have taught Harry, but the hero does eventually have to make it on his own without his mentor. Remember that in this story everyone who has been brave enough and taken a stand against Voldemort are heroes. Even in death, Dumbledore's contributions will assist in the downfall of Voldemort.

I totally agree

Dumbledore has given Harry the essential information that he needs in order to bring Voldemort down. JK has also confirmed that.

Originally Posted by bass man789

So, does everyone now agree that if you are strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra you will produce one and if you aren't strong enough to produce one you will give someone a nosebleed? Because if not, just go back and read my posts, I really don't feel like typing that much again.

Snape can't lower his magical strength to perform a curse. Sure, you can hoodwink something into believing you are stronger or weaker but I don't think you can hoodwink yourself.

Definately agree

Originally Posted by Tane

Slughorn knows his students and he never thought Snape would do what he did to Albus up in the tower. So even Slughorn would never think that Snape would kill Albus, why did Slughorn think Snape did not have it in him to kill anyone perhaps?

The same can be also said for Harry. McGonagall and Hagrid, I'm pretty positive would agree that the last thing that they would expect Harry to do, was force feed Dumbledore an enemies, unknown, harmful potion, but that is what he did.

Originally Posted by zgirnuis

We do not actually have enough information to know for sure one way or the other. For that reason, we can expect to have disagreements on issues like these.

I'm pretty sure that we can agree that a powerful bit of magic is needed if you are going to even think about performing a successful Avada Kedavra curse. It is canon afterall.

Originally Posted by MRWHITE213

The same way that most of the teachers didn't think Tom Riddle would become the most evil and powerful wizard the wizarding world had seen. Heck, there are still people that went to school with Tom Riddle that still do not realize Voldemort is the same person.

Aw snap .... I thought that I was really clever using Harry force feeding Dumbledore, but your tops mine any day

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by Latisha

I'm pretty sure that we can agree that a powerful bit of magic is needed if you are going to even think about performing a successful Avada Kedavra curse. It is canon afterall.

No question there. I think one of the points regarding Snape using one, is ....Can you control the amount of power behind it??? With Snape being the master of self control, if anybody could do it I think he could.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by coco1965

No question there. I think one of the points regarding Snape using one, is ....Can you control the amount of power behind it??? With Snape being the master of self control, if anybody could do it I think he could.

100% behind you on that under normal circumstances. But, the situation on the tower really is anything but normal. Snape has shown in the past that the mastery he does have over his emotions does have some cracks in it. No matter if you believe Snape is a "good guy" or "bad guy" it is very easy to see how the unexpected attack on the tower that night would give anyone a challenge to keep thier self control.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I think one of the points regarding Snape using one, is ....Can you control the amount of power behind it??? With Snape being the master of self control, if anybody could do it I think he could.

I agree that it's a question of can and did Snape control the magic behind the casting of the Avada Kedavra.

Basically, from what I have seen of LV's AKs after his rebrith in GoF and also at the MoM and compare them to Snape's. They are exactly the same.

So I have no doubt in my mind that the Avada Kedavra was indeed powerful enough to kill and if anything, equal to LV's powerful Avada Kedavra curse when he regained a body that enabled him to have his full strength capacity.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Aw snap .... I thought that I was really clever using Harry force feeding Dumbledore, but your tops mine any day

Thanks And who would have thought that Snape was and would have declaired himself proudly a Halfblood? Another little piece of information that has been constant in the series, is the major unexpected event happening: Quirrell working for Voldy; The diary of a young Voldemort using Ginny to open the chamber of secrets; Sirius Black being innocent and Wormtail being alive; Mad-Eye not being Mad-Eye; Voldy after a prophecy, not a wepon; & the Death of Dumbledore. I would say it fits the pattern because I know I didn't see the death coming, at least in book 6 with so much to do.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Latisha

:I'm pretty sure that we can agree that a powerful bit of magic is needed if you are going to even think about performing a successful Avada Kedavra curse. It is canon afterall.

Yes, but it is a logical fallacy to assume that therefore if there is a powerful bit of magic, there is a successful Avada Kedavra. More may be required. According to canon it is a necessary condition, but we do not know that it is also sufficient.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I agree, but if Dumbledore is not there, then Harry will be alone. If Dumbledore is dead, Harry will be alone, and if Dumbledore is alive and hiding, Harry will be alone, he will think that he has to do it on his own. Yes Dumbledore has been there to help Harry, but Dead or Alive in Book 7, Harry will be "alone" in the final battle.

Now for the part that I highlighted, you are contradicting yourself. I think that Dumbledore will reveal information to Harry along the way, and allow Harry to fight Voldemort alone, because he must, that is what the prophecy states.

Agree with you 95% here. Harry would indeed go it alone whether Dumbledore is alive or not, the effect for Harry will be the same. And although he has faced Voldemort/Riddle alone before, Harry must be there for the final battle.

However, I disagree that the prophecy says he has to fight Voldemort alone. I believe all it says is that Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, but that doesn't mean he has to go it alone. And I believe his friends will be with him as long as they can be. Oh, and Dumbledore too, although Harry will be unaware he's helping.

Originally Posted by MRWHITE213

I would say it fits the pattern because I know I didn't see the death coming, at least in book 6 with so much to do.

However, it can just as easily be said it fits the pattern that you didn't see the fake death happen, and don't see the the return coming either.

Originally Posted by Latisha

Basically, from what I have seen of LV's AKs after his rebrith in GoF and also at the MoM and compare them to Snape's. They are exactly the same.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. The effects of Voldemort's AK's are very different than Snape's supposed Avada Kedavra on the Tower.

[oliverwood4evr]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Exactly Hatred is not necesary to perform a successful Avada Kedavra curse.

i agree