Is Dumbledore Dead or Alive? v.10

[Belgarath]

This is slightly off subject but I was reading something that claimed Fawkes could be Dumbledore's Horcruxe(assuming he had one of course).

If that turned out to be true what about Fawke's feathers being the core of both Harry and Lord Voldemorte's wands?

Could this come into play? Could Harry's wand be used to bring Dumbledore back?

This is pretty far-fetched but it popped into my head so I decided to throw it out there.

[Tane]

Originally Posted by Belgarath

This is slightly off subject but I was reading something that claimed Fawkes could be Dumbledore's Horcruxe(assuming he had one of course).

If that turned out to be true what about Fawke's feathers being the core of both Harry and Lord Voldemorte's wands?

Could this come into play? Could Harry's wand be used to bring Dumbledore back?

This is pretty far-fetched but it popped into my head so I decided to throw it out there.

Oh I like it because the feathers in the wand are stopping Harry and Voldemort from killing each other with there wands.

Are you suggesting Harry's wand core contains Dumbledore's other half soul if he has one. That could be a great idea or that Fawkes is Dumbledore possession because Fawkes contains a part of Albus Dumbledore's soul as Fawkes can not die so it would be an ideal place to contain one and Fawkes has demonstrated that it is willing to sacrifice itself in order to save Albus as it did eactly this at the end of OotP.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by N_D_A

Glad we can agree, but I still am wondering where you disagreed with me at? I'm a little confused at the moment..?

The hate v hate comment.

Originally Posted by Tane

Except Slughorn new that Tom would be powerful, hence the reason for inviting him to the SlugClub. Slughorn also realised that Tom was not that pleasent when Tom insisted on talking about Horcruxes and killing others. I do not think Tom pulled the wool completely over the eyes of Slughorn but more Slughorn kept in with Tom because he thought he would gain something from him or was to affraid to confront him and rock the boat as he new to well what Tom might be capable of.

I agree that Sluggy knew that Tom had massive potential and had always thought he would to great in the ministry, as did the other teachers. Bar Dumbledore of course.

Sluggy may not have had the wool pulled over his eyes, but he instead put his head in the sand and pretended, convinced himself that it was not important.

Of course, when it came to light. He sure as hedwig didn't want anyone to know that he was the one that was talking to Tom about a very dark magic that was banned in Hogwarts, while Tom was still a student at Hogwarts. And just like he did with the fact that conversation ever took place. He dug his head in the sand even further.

It took 16years to get Sluggy to give what really happened in that classroom that day and even then, he was under the influence of alcohol and did not remember the next day and was still under the impression that the truth was still hidden from those that wanted to know.

Originally Posted by Tane

Slughorn never seemed suprised at Tom becoming Voldemort but he did seem suprised at Snape killing Dumbledore. Slughorn seemed vexed about Snape and what he had done and this is after knowing to well that Slughorn never benefited from Severus. Sounds to me like Slughorn actually like Severus and hence did not use him in the way he used his other students. Perhaps Slughorn had Snape going to him when James and Sirius kept having a go at him.

Well I wouldn't say surprised either, more like scared. As for Snape, well we know that he's always been a closed character except when it had to do with Harry and the mauranders. Snape always to me, seems to wear a mask, except of course when it comes to Harry and the mauranders. Tom also wore a mask during his school days as well and had it not been for that little conversation about horcruxes, I would not be surprised if Sluggy was just as taken aback by Tom becoming Voldemort.

Originally Posted by Tane

Slughorn stated that he thought he could trust Severus and he says it with venom after Snape has appeared to of killed Albus. Slughorn trusted Snape as much as Albus did by the looks of things and if Snape is not bad and is good then Slughorn has a right to judge Snape and start asking why. I guess this does not matter whether Dumbledore is dead or alive but Slughorn might be the one to help figure out why Snape seemed or did what he did to Albus; either killed him or faked his death.

Well, I think that your quoting Sluggy wrong

HBP - The Phoenix Lament "Snape!" ejacuilated Slughorn, who looked the most shaken, pale and sweating. "Snape! I taught him! I thought I knew him!'

He said that he thought he knew Snape. He said nothing of trust. If anything, Sluggy seems well right pompus most of the time and am not surprised that he reacted as though he was an expert on Snape, as he seems to think he's an expert on all his Slug Club members, like the player for that quidditch team, so and so's uncle in the ministry, etc.

Originally Posted by Tane

Why introduce a character like Slughorn so late in the series.

So as to introduce the horcruxes which is a banned subject and also get a picture of roughly how many horcruxes could be out there. Couldn't do it by books, Dumbledore wouldn't have known about the number and of course, Harry got to know a bit more about his mother and also to give a starting point for the introduction of the HBP character, which we did not know was Snape until the end and there always has to be a new DADA teacher and Harry wanted to be an auror, Snape still as the potions master, it wasn't going to happen.

Oh and also to show that not all Slytherin's are blood paranoid fanatics. There are some that aren't too bad. Of course, the good Slytherin students wouldn't have been as intriging as a new teacher because then we would ask the question, why were not introduced to a decent Slytherin student earlier. Well that's just me thinking out loud.

Originally Posted by Tane

Yes Slughorn knows about the Horcruxes and help deduce how many but Slughorn's character comes with more than just the Horcrux package, he is good a faking his own death or arranging them and he tends to be good at spotting those that will be beneficial in later life and tends to know how to manipulate others to do as he wishes. Dumbledore even warns Harry to be careful of Slughorn suggesting that he is no push over and always has magical protection surrounding him all the time. Even Tom asked questions carefully when it came to asking Slughorn something and it was not because Slughorn would go running to Albus either.

Well, I wouldn't say spotting those that will be beneficial in later life, but rather, excellent at spotting talent and those that have potential to be someone of importance.

Wouldn't say manipulative either. But rather pushy in trying to get what he wants.

As for what Dumbledore was saying, it was more of advice rather than warning, to get Harry to use his 'great addition to Sluggy's collection' value, to persuade Sluggy to give the memory, as it would have been a more effective than trying to magically get it out of him.

Remember as well that Dumbledore I'm sure or at least after Harry asked about Horcruxes, Sluggy was on his guard as he knew that Dumbledore wanted to know the truth, which Sluggy was determined not to hand over.

I agree though, that it was definatly not because Sluggy was going to go running to Dumbledore, as it was the information that was in that memory, that Dumbledore wanted, which Sluggy knew because he had already given Dumbledore a dodgy copy of that memory.

Originally Posted by Tane

Albus had to even twist Slughorn's arm to go to Hogwarts. This suggests that Slughorn was capable of protecting himself and even defied Albus on more than one occasion, so he did not fear him either or need his help (unlike others who rely on Albus to much).

It was actually quite clever wasn't it. I interpret it was Sluggy's cowardise to be in a position to show someone that he thinks highly of that he had information that would have been very useful in the first Voldemort war and had caused many deaths because of his silence. It was Sluggy's determination to hide his shame and guilt rather than defiance.

Originally Posted by Tane

Slughorn can not believe he miss-read an ex-student so much. If Dumbledore did fake his death then Slughorn is the character who with a little help might see through such deception and he is the character who starts to question why Snape because he thought he could trust him. This gives Slughorn another purpose in the next book because what would Slughorns role be in book 7. For me one such role that Slughorn might have is to figure out the deception between Snape and Albus because he is good at this himself. Not only that but it was a spell interacting with Dumbledore who was suffering from the effects of a potion. Who would be at this moment in time the best wizard to figure out what kind of interaction that potion in the cave might have on the Avada Kedavra, why Slughorn of course as he was Snape's potion master. Harry told everyone that Snape killed Dumbledore with the Avada Kedavra but he told no one, not even Slughorn about the potion Dumbledore took at the cave just before Snape used Avada Kedavra on him. That potion in the cave information might of raised an eyebrow on Slughorn's face as there is a book on Jo's site called Spell Potions and a potion master the likes of Slughorn would probably know about such things.

We have never seen another character hit by the Avada Kedavra after drinking a potion so we really do not know what might happen when that spell interacts with that potion but we know they exist or there would be no book on them on Jo's site.

Well, I hardly think that he really knows anyone. They are all pawns in his life, that make him feel that he has influence and power to make things happen, that's what Dumbledore said about Sluggy anyway, or something to that effect.

Hmmm. Is there anything interesting in that book Spell Potions that could be a clue as to what effects what when spell (A) hits someone who drank potion (B). See, what I was thinking is that Dumbledore said in the cave that Voldemort would want to know who had gotten that far past his protections and who is after his horcruxes, so everything there is not to kill someone immediately, but rather keep them alive long enough for Voldemort to know who was tampering with his horcruxes or attempting to. Doesnt' actually make sense to devise such an elaborate ploy with the potions, just to Avada Kedavra them in the end and not have them die because of the potion that he had made as part of that protection in the first place.

Originally Posted by Tane

So Slughorn has what it takes to figure out a fake death attempt.

Slughorn can fake his own death (takes one to know one). Dumbledore offers fake death.
Slughorn is the potion master (takes one to know one). Avada Kedavra + potion in the cave = ?
Slughorn is good a deception (takes one to know one). Dumbledore is good at deception too (using Harry to get the memory from Slughorn just in the same way as Slughorn uses his past students to get what he wants).

Well, what's wrong with this list is that if it was a planned fake death as you are claiming as Sluggy planned to fake his death and did, Dumbledore offered to fake Draco's death, Dumbledore is good at deception, yet the theory that Dumbledore had to drink that potion in the cave and be hit by an Avada Kedavra to work, doesn't fit.

Dumbledore and Snape for that matter did not know what potion was in that cave. So therefore, they couldn't have planned the fake death on the hope that Voldemort used a particular potion as a protection for his particular horcrux, which would be protecting this particular cave.

If indeed the death was not a death at all and the potion combined with being hit by the Avada Kedavra an hour to half an hour after drinking it or having it splashed over your face, would have been accidental fake death, rather than a planned one.

Originally Posted by Tane

I also want to add this about Slughorn. As for the memory alteration, yes Dumbledore says that Slughorn did not do a good attempt at it but what is deemed a poor attempt in Dumbledore's eyes might be an excellent attempted in the eyes of an average which or wizard. I mean if Dumbledore might be compairing Slughorn's ability to his own when it comes down to memory alteration as they do seem to like to compete against each other (fake death scene at the start of the book kind of points to this competative nature between the two characters).

Sluggy seems to be the one with a competitive nature, who many collectables can I gain this year. Dumbledore is the greatest wizard in the world, he has no equal and he knows this, it's what makes him in a sense lonely and set apart from others, not from the desire to be different, but because of his intellect and talent. Dumbledore has nothing to prove. Right from the beginning of the series, Dumbledore has always been modest in his knowledge, eg. not bragging about it. He always gave others a chance to say their part and not judge them, but instead give his advise. That is not the description of a person that needs to compete his talents with another.

I don't agree that Dumbledore was ever competitive at all towards Sluggy.

[cedric007]

Surely, for Dumbledore to have destroyed it, it would have destroyed the "power within" - that was the whole purpose of it being destroyed.And if Dumbledore would actually use L.V.'s H.C. for his own protection, then I have misjuged Albus Dumbledore entirely! Surely a great wizard, as he, would not use the enemies life saver just to save his life, after he's done what he can for Harry and Hogwarts.[/quote]


ohh very well, clever girl! thanks! but still, there's somethin chuckin my mind here..okay, lets say Dumbledore's main purpose of having the slytherin ring is to destroy it. But the fact Mrs. Hepzibah revealed that the locket and the cup have its own power (even if they werent yet a horcrux) is a big deal. The 'power within' in the Slytherin's ring is I am reffering to, not Voldemorts curse on it, not anything that made Dumbledore's hand blackened, but the natural power within itself.


yeah! we all, ofcourse agree with you that Dumbledore is a great wizard...but im not telling that he is foolish enough if he used the other's...

probably you cant get my point...well, if this theory does not make sense to anyone, perhaps i ought to close this...this might bring us to a rubbish argument..thanks! more power to mugglenet!

That is interesting, but it just sounds too far-fetched to me...answer this question: What is the point of killing Dumbledore, just for him to return? If you look back at the other pages (and versions) of this thread, I still haven't found someone that will answer it.

to Mr. cm2009:
im afraid but i shall answer your, what do you call that? still haven't found someone that will answer it. question? well, there's no one has indeed knows the right reason of JKR in killing Dumbledore coz we dont have yet the official seventh installment of Harry Potter books...but coming from mile away, i saw somethin that might be the reason of Dumbledores death--A PLAN...

from the help of Nicole's editorial:
In his explanation of his actions to Harry, Dumbledore repeats so many times the word "plan," that I wonder what J.K. Rowling was trying to tell us. I doubt the word keeps hammering on for no good reason:

'"Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended.'" (835, OotP)
"'Five years ago, then,' continued Dumbledore, as though he had not paused in his story, 'you arrived at Hogwarts [. . .] as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances. Thus far, my plan was working well.'" (837, OotP)
"'Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine,' said Dumbledore. 'An obvious flaw that I knew, even then, might be the undoing of it all. And yet, knowing how important it was that my plan should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it.'" (837, OotP)

"'You do not see the flaw in the plan yet? No . . . perhaps not.'" (837, OotP)

"'Do you see, Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now?'" (838, OotP)

"'I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed.'" (838, OotP)

Plan, plan, my plan, my brilliant plan...

what do you think if Voldemort hve noticed that Snape killed Dumbledore instead of Draco?


Dumbledore is a brilliant, clever and well rounded wizard that no one can fool him even the Dark Lord... i point that that TRUSTWORTHY Snape and eccentric Prof. Dumbledore has a plan...

[Tane]

Originally Posted by Latisha

The hate v hate comment.



I agree that Sluggy knew that Tom had massive potential and had always thought he would to great in the ministry, as did the other teachers. Bar Dumbledore of course.

Sluggy may not have had the wool pulled over his eyes, but he instead put his head in the sand and pretended, convinced himself that it was not important.

Of course, when it came to light. He sure as hedwig didn't want anyone to know that he was the one that was talking to Tom about a very dark magic that was banned in Hogwarts, while Tom was still a student at Hogwarts. And just like he did with the fact that conversation ever took place. He dug his head in the sand even further.

It took 16years to get Sluggy to give what really happened in that classroom that day and even then, he was under the influence of alcohol and did not remember the next day and was still under the impression that the truth was still hidden from those that wanted to know.



Well I wouldn't say surprised either, more like scared. As for Snape, well we know that he's always been a closed character except when it had to do with Harry and the mauranders. Snape always to me, seems to wear a mask, except of course when it comes to Harry and the mauranders. Tom also wore a mask during his school days as well and had it not been for that little conversation about horcruxes, I would not be surprised if Sluggy was just as taken aback by Tom becoming Voldemort.



Well, I think that your quoting Sluggy wrong



He said that he thought he knew Snape. He said nothing of trust. If anything, Sluggy seems well right pompus most of the time and am not surprised that he reacted as though he was an expert on Snape, as he seems to think he's an expert on all his Slug Club members, like the player for that quidditch team, so and so's uncle in the ministry, etc.



So as to introduce the horcruxes which is a banned subject and also get a picture of roughly how many horcruxes could be out there. Couldn't do it by books, Dumbledore wouldn't have known about the number and of course, Harry got to know a bit more about his mother and also to give a starting point for the introduction of the HBP character, which we did not know was Snape until the end and there always has to be a new DADA teacher and Harry wanted to be an auror, Snape still as the potions master, it wasn't going to happen.

Oh and also to show that not all Slytherin's are blood paranoid fanatics. There are some that aren't too bad. Of course, the good Slytherin students wouldn't have been as intriging as a new teacher because then we would ask the question, why were not introduced to a decent Slytherin student earlier. Well that's just me thinking out loud.



Well, I wouldn't say spotting those that will be beneficial in later life, but rather, excellent at spotting talent and those that have potential to be someone of importance.

Wouldn't say manipulative either. But rather pushy in trying to get what he wants.

As for what Dumbledore was saying, it was more of advice rather than warning, to get Harry to use his 'great addition to Sluggy's collection' value, to persuade Sluggy to give the memory, as it would have been a more effective than trying to magically get it out of him.

Remember as well that Dumbledore I'm sure or at least after Harry asked about Horcruxes, Sluggy was on his guard as he knew that Dumbledore wanted to know the truth, which Sluggy was determined not to hand over.

I agree though, that it was definatly not because Sluggy was going to go running to Dumbledore, as it was the information that was in that memory, that Dumbledore wanted, which Sluggy knew because he had already given Dumbledore a dodgy copy of that memory.



It was actually quite clever wasn't it. I interpret it was Sluggy's cowardise to be in a position to show someone that he thinks highly of that he had information that would have been very useful in the first Voldemort war and had caused many deaths because of his silence. It was Sluggy's determination to hide his shame and guilt rather than defiance.



Well, I hardly think that he really knows anyone. They are all pawns in his life, that make him feel that he has influence and power to make things happen, that's what Dumbledore said about Sluggy anyway, or something to that effect.

Hmmm. Is there anything interesting in that book Spell Potions that could be a clue as to what effects what when spell (A) hits someone who drank potion (B). See, what I was thinking is that Dumbledore said in the cave that Voldemort would want to know who had gotten that far past his protections and who is after his horcruxes, so everything there is not to kill someone immediately, but rather keep them alive long enough for Voldemort to know who was tampering with his horcruxes or attempting to. Doesnt' actually make sense to devise such an elaborate ploy with the potions, just to Avada Kedavra them in the end and not have them die because of the potion that he had made as part of that protection in the first place.



Well, what's wrong with this list is that if it was a planned fake death as you are claiming as Sluggy planned to fake his death and did, Dumbledore offered to fake Draco's death, Dumbledore is good at deception, yet the theory that Dumbledore had to drink that potion in the cave and be hit by an Avada Kedavra to work, doesn't fit.

Dumbledore and Snape for that matter did not know what potion was in that cave. So therefore, they couldn't have planned the fake death on the hope that Voldemort used a particular potion as a protection for his particular horcrux, which would be protecting this particular cave.

If indeed the death was not a death at all and the potion combined with being hit by the Avada Kedavra an hour to half an hour after drinking it or having it splashed over your face, would have been accidental fake death, rather than a planned one.



Sluggy seems to be the one with a competitive nature, who many collectables can I gain this year. Dumbledore is the greatest wizard in the world, he has no equal and he knows this, it's what makes him in a sense lonely and set apart from others, not from the desire to be different, but because of his intellect and talent. Dumbledore has nothing to prove. Right from the beginning of the series, Dumbledore has always been modest in his knowledge, eg. not bragging about it. He always gave others a chance to say their part and not judge them, but instead give his advise. That is not the description of a person that needs to compete his talents with another.

I don't agree that Dumbledore was ever competitive at all towards Sluggy.

All valid points but what purpose does Sluggy have in the next book if it has nothing to do with Albus. Jo has given us a character that is nearly as old as Albus. Albus said himself that he could not get the secret that Slug was hiding other than use his hearts desire to get him to give it up and even then it took a lucky potion and an in toxicated Sluggy to say so. We only have Harry's word that Sluggy can not remember what he said and can we be sure that it was the lucky potion that even gave him what he wanted?

As for the Dumbledore being lonely and having no equal. The whole having no equal was all about having no lover, partner in his life. It was not about his ability to do magic but about the love in his life. Dumbledore has no equal, where is his confident (not sure I spelled this correctly, as in partner terms), he has none. The responce was to squash the theory that Minerva and Dumbledore where an item or married, not about magical ability but about love and is why Jo ends this statement with the word confident.

I mixed it up with his ability at first but then looked at what brought that responce from Jo about Dumbledore and it was about whether Dumbledore had a wife or past relationship, it was to do with his love life and the fact that he has not got one which is why he is alone.

I do find it odd though that Jo would say Fawkes is his possession as that is really strong word to use.

Originally Posted by Cedric007

from the help of Nicole's editorial:
In his explanation of his actions to Harry, Dumbledore repeats so many times the word "plan," that I wonder what J.K. Rowling was trying to tell us. I doubt the word keeps hammering on for no good reason:

'"Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended.'" (835, OotP)
"'Five years ago, then,' continued Dumbledore, as though he had not paused in his story, 'you arrived at Hogwarts [. . .] as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances. Thus far, my plan was working well.'" (837, OotP)
"'Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine,' said Dumbledore. 'An obvious flaw that I knew, even then, might be the undoing of it all. And yet, knowing how important it was that my plan should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it.'" (837, OotP)

"'You do not see the flaw in the plan yet? No . . . perhaps not.'" (837, OotP)

"'Do you see, Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now?'" (838, OotP)

"'I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed.'" (838, OotP)

Thank you for this bit of information. I new there was a reason why I kept on going on about the others that Dumbledore might feel the need to save, such as muggles and those that can not save themselves from Voldemort and here is the reason why Dumbledore would leave Harry to help others

OotP, page 837 "'I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed.'" (838, OotP)

Bold mine.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by Tane

All valid points but what purpose does Sluggy have in the next book if it has nothing to do with Albus. Jo has given us a character that is nearly as old as Albus. Albus said himself that he could not get the secret that Slug was hiding other than use his hearts desire to get him to give it up and even then it took a lucky potion and an in toxicated Sluggy to say so. We only have Harry's word that Sluggy can not remember what he said and can we be sure that it was the lucky potion that even gave him what he wanted?

Well, first of all, it's not Harry's word that I (not sure what everyone else thinks), am taking into account that Sluggy remembered nothing of giving Harry the memory that he so desperately wanted to hide from everyone.

It was the Felix potion that was telling Harry, just like it was telling Harry that Sluggy would not remember.

HBP - After The Burial He knew he was safe: Felix was telling him that Slughorn would remember nothing of this in the morning.

An unbiased magical potion that brings luck to it's drinker. Harry being the drinker of course would not want Sluggy to remember and so I guess that Felix guided Harry to that exact situation so that Sluggy wouldn't remember.

Secondly, the book is centered around Harry, not Dumbledore. But you do have a point there

Sluggy knew Tom Riddle the student, he knew Dumbledore the teacher and may have known Dumbledore the headmaster as well, he definately knew about Lily. Sluggy is a store of information that Harry and us the readers want to know. What about Lily, what about Tom at school, what about Dumbledore. Don't forget as well, Sluggy would also know about Dumbledore and Grindelwald or at least important information that he would be able to impart on Harry.

Hmmmm.... Didn't JK also say that Riddle and Grindelwald have some kind of connection or hinted it. I vaguely remember something along those lines in an interview. Sluggy could also be the key to that.

Originally Posted by Tane

As for the Dumbledore being lonely and having no equal. The whole having no equal was all about having no lover, partner in his life. It was not about his ability to do magic but about the love in his life. Dumbledore has no equal, where is his confident (not sure I spelled this correctly, as in partner terms), he has none. The responce was to squash the theory that Minerva and Dumbledore where an item or married, not about magical ability but about love and is why Jo ends this statement with the word confident.

I mixed it up with his ability at first but then looked at what brought that responce from Jo about Dumbledore and it was about whether Dumbledore had a wife or past relationship, it was to do with his love life and the fact that he has not got one which is why he is alone.

Actually JK says that his intelligence is the reason that he has no equal, confident, etc. She even goes on to compare Dumbledore to a collegue that is a capable second in command, but not an equal. It is not just his personal life, but his whole life.

Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part One," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005 JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that. ES: No, that was a good answer. MA: It's interesting about Dumbledore being lonely.

Originally Posted by Tane

I do find it odd though that Jo would say Fawkes is his possession as that is really strong word to use.

Where did that come from? Is it that JK did not include Fawkes as a possible confidante or friend, but rather a pet?

Originally Posted by Tane

I knew there was a reason why I kept on going on about the others that Dumbledore might feel the need to save, such as muggles and those that can not save themselves from Voldemort and here is the reason why Dumbledore would leave Harry to help others

Well, I agree with you.

Though, Dumbledore does not necessarily have to do it himself now does he. Harry's going to cut off the head of the serpent, in the meantime he has delegated responsibilites out to his trusted and faithful comrades in the fight to protect those that need to be safe.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by Tane

Except Slughorn new that Tom would be powerful, hence the reason for inviting him to the SlugClub.

I agree that Slughorn does have an eye for talent. You can see how he thought Tom may end up in the Ministry or using his talents elsewhere. He thought that Tom would be famous, not infamous.

Originally Posted by Tane

Slughorn never seemed suprised at Tom becoming Voldemort but he did seem suprised at Snape killing Dumbledore.

We first meet Slughorn how many years after Tom became Voldy and began his reign of terror....I think the "surprise" would have worn off by now. Also, we see he feels guilty for giving information on horcruxes to Tom, which to be honest I think Tom had heard rumors that is how they worked but was getting confirmation from what he concidered a reliable source. I don't think he knew 100% until Dumbledore asked him for the memory that Tom/Voldemort had created any. I think if Voldemort had an idea that Slughorn may have known, he would have been dead. With Snape, everyone was surprised that he killed Dumbledore. Now it could have been because Dumbledore stated he trusted Snape completely or from what Slughorn knew of Snape as a student, I do not know. Of course everyone in the story feels it is because he is openly declaring his alliance with Voldemort, but there is a thread to debate if that is the case or not....

Originally Posted by Tane

Why introduce a character like Slughorn so late in the series.

For two reasons. First the obvious, to learn about the horcruxes and how many Voldemort may have created. Second, whether you believe Snape to be evil or good or Dumbledore to be dead or alive, eventually Snape had to show an open alliance to Dumbledore after taking the UV. It is the only way that the "curse of the DADA" position stay in effect so to speak and to keep Snape and Draco alive, if it be by hoodwinking the UV taken (if possible) and faking Dumbledore's death to keep Draco alive or Dumbledore sacraficing/being sacrificed to keep Snape and Draco alive.

[Tane]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Well, first of all, it's not Harry's word that I (not sure what everyone else thinks), am taking into account that Sluggy remembered nothing of giving Harry the memory that he so desperately wanted to hide from everyone.

It was the Felix potion that was telling Harry, just like it was telling Harry that Sluggy would not remember.



An unbiased magical potion that brings luck to it's drinker. Harry being the drinker of course would not want Sluggy to remember and so I guess that Felix guided Harry to that exact situation so that Sluggy wouldn't remember.

True, nothing more to say on that one.

Secondly, the book is centered around Harry, not Dumbledore. But you do have a point there

True no book has ever centered around Dumbledore but this book did center around Harry and the Half Blood Prince. The books have always been Harry and something else not just Harry.

Sluggy knew Tom Riddle the student, he knew Dumbledore the teacher and may have known Dumbledore the headmaster as well, he definately knew about Lily. Sluggy is a store of information that Harry and us the readers want to know. What about Lily, what about Tom at school, what about Dumbledore. Don't forget as well, Sluggy would also know about Dumbledore and Grindelwald or at least important information that he would be able to impart on Harry.

That is nothing that Minerva or Hagrid can not tell Harry though as these two characters have been around at that time, note not as old as Slughorn but still could provide similar information and for Slughorn to know about everything regaurding Albus back when Grindlewald was around, Dumbledore must of trusted Sluggy to a point if fine detail is to be revealed.

Hmmmm.... Didn't JK also say that Riddle and Grindelwald have some kind of connection or hinted it. I vaguely remember something along those lines in an interview. Sluggy could also be the key to that.

Not sure could be a quill quotes scouting session.

Actually JK says that his intelligence is the reason that he has no equal, confident, etc. She even goes on to compare Dumbledore to a collegue that is a capable second in command, but not an equal. It is not just his personal life, but his whole life.

So if Voldemort can achieve some sort of goal towards immortality then Dumbledore having no equal in ability probably can actually achieve immortality because what Voldemort has is not really lasting immortality as he can be destroyed when those Horcruxes are gone. The phoenix is the only creature that appears to have true immortality in this book so far though Albus has a phoenix patronus and I have to wonder why.

Where did that come from? Is it that JK did not include Fawkes as a possible confidante or friend, but rather a pet?

No not his mate or anything strange like that but I do find it strange that he feels he owns something enough for Jo to say that it is his possession as it is a free creature and pheonixes are not easy to domesticate according to fantastic beasts.

What brings forward to me the importance of Fawkes is not only the possession but the fact that Dumbledore tells Harry something along the lines of, do you think it a coincidence that your patronous take the form of a stag when your father's animagus form is also that of a stag. No you have found your father in you Harry. Well something along those lines. I will find the quote a little later on.

This begs the question of why Albus would have a phoenix as his patronus. Does this mean that Albus has found the power of the phoenix with in himself. I mean the patronus takes the form of something very close, very, very close to the caster. So I guess Dumbledore could be close to his pet but with Hermione her patronus was a symbol of her intellect. So Dumbledore's patronous symbol could have something to do with being immortal (not essentially something he choose to be but more something he has not choice about)

Everytime I think possession and the phoenix I think Morgana and Merlin where Morgana was a bird animagus witch in Jo's world and the chocolate frog card shows her with a phoenix feather in her hair and glows the colours of the phoenix. In PS/SS Harry pulls out the frog card Dumbledore first and Ron at the same time pulls out Morgana.

I'm not going to go into mythology that much but Morgana used love to trick Merlin into him telling her all his magical secrets (Merlins was not all human and was immortal and there is some debate on whether he had children). Imagine how powerful a child born from Morgana and Merlin would be. The child might have its mothers phoenix ability and its father immortality.

The above paragraph is a very big long shot though but:

Dumbledore's phoenix means something but what?
The phoenix means so much to him that he even named his order after the phoenix but why?

I don't think it is because he loves his pet that much because it normally symbolises something about the witch or wizard, either a quality or family. Jo did say Dumbledore's family was an important line of enquiry.

I actually think the reason Fawkes came to Dumbledore was because his patronus was already the form of a phoenix and with Fawkes seeing a rare site, one of its own it probably followed Albus Dumbledore's patronus right to back to Albus. So I do not think he got his phoenix patronus but then again we would need to know when Dumbledore met up with Fawkes. If Fawkes found Albus then it was probably attracted to him by his patronous and then you have to ask what his phoenix patronous represented but if Dumbledore found Fawkes then you have to ask why Dumbledore was seeking a creature of immortality when he had no interest in being immortal himself.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by cm2009

If you don't believe that Dumbledore faked his death, then why are you debating me? I think that those questions are actually the message that the series are trying to convey. My question had to do with the plot. I was merely stating that no "aliver" has yet given me enough proof to convert me.

I think kingwidgit was just expanding on what you said by just asking more of "how can you have these themes in the book then have one of the most respected Wizards go agaist them" and have it still seem right. The statement

Could she have Dumbledore 'fake' his death? Of course, she could. I don't think she did, but I've no proof she didn't either. There is canon to support that his death was always intended, from an interview she gave, post-HBP release 7/05.

is just kingwidgit admitting that no one is 100% sure, hence why this thread and the debate continues.

[ErodedCarpet]

I understand that every one has their opinions on what they would and would not like to happen. Personaly, I will be happy in what ever direction she goes. I use the following quote to remind myself that this is her story and she will tell it as she wishes.

Originally Posted by Rowlings’s BBC Interview 2001

JKR: It's very interesting how parents think that they have the right to dictate to you because you're writing reading material for their children. I got a horrible letter on book two, very very stuffy letter, from a mother saying, "This was a very disturbing ending, and I'm sure a writer of your ability will be able to think of a better way to end the next book," so basically, "Liked it two thirds of the way through, but if you could really address this issue in future, and I'll be back in touch if I find you unacceptable". And it was at that point where I snapped and I wrote back and said, "Don't read the rest of the books. Yours sincerely, Jo Rowling." There's no point, I mean, there's no point, I'm not taking dictation here.
Do I care about my readers? Profoundly, and deeply, but... Do I ultimately think that they should dictate a single word of what I write? No. No, I'm the only one who should be in control of that. And I'm not writing to make anyone's children feel safe.

I think Rowling’s makes it very clear that this is her story and she will tell it her way. We all may have our opinions, but in the end we can either enjoy it or leave it, but we are not likely to change it.
Also, I know a lot of people feel Dumbledore has served his purpose. But how can we know that? Since we do not yet know what book 7 holds how can we assume he has nothing further to accomplish?

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Yes, that is how I see it as well. The generic capacity to hate something/someone needs to be there.

Perhaps it’s more than just generic. Perhaps you have to be able to tap into it. Similar to how Harry had to find the right happy thought in order to work the patronus. So maybe Harry’s failed curse did not work because the emotion/thought he tried to draw his hate from was not powerful/hateful enough. Maybe this was what Bella was telling Harry when she told him righteous anger would not do it.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I actually think emotion may play a bigger role than that. Using your Patronus analogy (good one! ): we know Harrry is a very powerful wizard, because a Patronus he summoned at the end of PoA was able to chase off a horde of Dementors. (Hermione states this could only be done by a very powerful wizard; I do think this is one of the instances where Rowling is using our favorite know-it-all to provide us with a fact she wants us to know). Yet, there were times Harry failed to produce a corporeal Patronus. Lupin suggested he use a more powerful memory, in one such instance during Harry's lessons. So power is not quite enough, some sort of emotional focus of sufficient strength is also required.

Why do I bring this up? I think it is clear that Snape is a powerful wizard, and Snape has the requisite capacity for hatred. Some might argue that any Killing Curse cast by him would therefore have to be deadly. But I disagree. I think that if he was sufficiently conflicted emotionally at the time he cast such a curse, it could still fail. If he did not want to kill Dumbledore, but felt compelled, for whatever reason, to try, I this this is precisely a circumstance in which even a powerful wizard capable of real hatred might fail. (By analogy to Harry, who has the power and goodness to cast a powerful Patronus, but not it he fails to achieve the proper emotional focus when doing it.)

I see your point, Snape though capable of the spell may have sabotaged it intentionally or unintentionally by having conflicting emotions while casting the spell. I can see that as a possibility. If like the patronus the spell is part magic and part emotion you would need both in proper alignments to perform the curse. Having one or the other not correct would not yield the proper result. Just like Harry’s first failed patronus. Interesting, and possible.

Originally Posted by zgirnius

Be of good cheer, there are lots here (I mean ones who, unlike me, actually argue FOR the deader position...). They'll turn up- eventually!

I would interject that as a deader, you have always presented your arguments well without appearing to criticize the opposition. You make your points and stand by them, regardless of whether the item could directly support deader or aliver arguments. I have seen you agree with an aliver view of a debated point, most people on either side won’t do this. I guess from fear that agreeing on any one point of the opposition would be admitting defeat lol. So as a fence sitter I am of good cheer to have you around!

Originally Posted by bass_man789

So, does everyone now agree that if you are strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra you will produce one and if you aren't strong enough to produce one you will give someone a nosebleed? Because if not, just go back and read my posts, I really don't feel like typing that much again.

Read your posts, still don’t agree. But that’s OK it’s nothing new to this thread.

Originally Posted by bass_man789

I've compared the Avada Kedavra to the Patronus Charm before too, I just don't know before or after Eroded Carpet, I guess before, this post was on page six:
Quote:

Originally Posted by bass_man789
In short:
If you're strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra, then you're going to kill the person you're pointing your wand at (I mean, Harry is strong enough to produce a Patronus Charm and he can pretty much do it with little effort at the end of Book Five, i.e. Defence Against the Dark Arts O.W.L.). If you aren't strong enough to produce an Avada Kedavra but hate the person you're attempting to use it on then, NOSEBLEED NOUGAT! (You'll get a nosebleed.)

Everyone possesses hate. Even lovable, pure, good Harry Potter possesses hate. You have to hate, or have some dislike for who you're casting the curse upon. For the Patronus Charm to properly work you need a happy memory to concentrate on and you have to be magically powerful. The happy thought could be flying a broom or killing the Headmaster of Hogwarts, whatever makes you happy will work. For the Avada Kedavra to work you have to have some negative (or even positive if you're a maniac) emotion towards someone; jealousy, hate, or greed. You have to dislike the person you're casting it upon.

Spells that require something more than words. The Summoning Charm, Harry had trouble with it but, after using it and practicing he got to the point where he can do it easily. The same most likely holds true for the Patronus, and all Unforgivables. They require thought, concentration, or other intentions. But, after using them for a while, you become accustomed to doing them and can easily pull them off. Now, we don't have any evidence Snape has murdered before but, I guess we can assume he did since he was a Death Eater. He must likely is comfortable using Unforgivables just how Harry is comfortable performing the Patronus Charm, unless of course, he gets attacked in an alley way in a Muggle neighborhood and gets punched in the side of the head, falls to the ground, and looses his wand.

I agree Harry has the ability to hate, does that mean Voldemort has the ability to love? Different topic though lol.

I think where we differ here bass_man789 is I don’t think the personal feelings for the target matter. I believe the target is unimportant in the ability to cast the spell. Just as one can perform the patronus regardless of whether there are dementors around or if you are practicing or sending a message. The final target of your goal to me seems unimportant to the actual casting of the spell.

I see it as the ability to find your happy thought, draw from the happy thought, and then add to it the magical spell. All together equaling the actual casting of the spell. We know from the book that the ability to cast a patronus is impressive, especially a corporeal patronus. So I would assume it takes an impressive amount of magic to cast a patronus. Since, most everyone would have happy thoughts I would imagine that it’s the magic needed that’s impressive. But, Harry’s first attempt fails not because he is a weak wizard but because his happy thought was not good enough.

This to me indicates that regardless of a wizards magical ability, that if they do not possess the right emotion/thought/intent to draw from then spell will not work.

I agree Harry can hate, and he obviously wanted to use the a curse on Bella because he tried. But was he able to allow himself to find that thought and be engrossed with it enough to want to make his curse work? Apparently not, since his attempt on Bella was not that good. I think she explains this for us the readers by telling Harry his righteous anger was not good enough, just like Lupin telling Harry his broomstick flying thought was not good enough.
This is why I believe that it takes emotion and magical talent to cast some spells. The target is only relevant in that it’s an aiming point.

Now what would happen if your emotional content was not what it should be. I can see several scenarios. One, nothing happens. Like Harry’s failed patronus. The other is a weakened spell. Harry tried to cast the Cruciatus curse on Belle. He did not do it right, but something did happen. The spell had an effect just not a full power effect. Since, Bella refers to “them” as she talks to Harry I surmise at the moment that what she says is true to all of the unforgivable curses.

That said, what might happen if a wizard did not have the proper mind set when casting the Killing Curse? Nothing? Or a Spell not at full power? The book does not tell me, therefore to me its an open ended question until further information can be added.

Originally Posted by Latisha

I'm pretty sure that we can agree that a powerful bit of magic is needed if you are going to even think about performing a successful Avada Kedavra curse. It is canon afterall.

Originally Posted by coco1965

No question there. I think one of the points regarding Snape using one, is ....Can you control the amount of power behind it??? With Snape being the master of self control, if anybody could do it I think he could.

LOL I disagree coco1965. Not that it does not take a powerful bit of magic in general. But that there is no question there or that we should agree just because it is canon after all. Canon is great, but it also misleads. It was canon that Snape jinxed Harry’s broom in book one. However, later canon superseded the previous canon. So Snape goes from bad guy jinxing to good guy counter jinxing. I know some people place a great deal of importance on canon, and they are welcome to. I however always view canon as suspect, it changes at the authors whim it can’t be fully trusted. If canon itself was trustworthy we wouldn’t need these forums or all these topics. We would just accept that Dumbledore is dead, Snape is Bad that everything the book tells us is as it appears. Well how often is what the book/canon tells us pan out to be true? Was Snap after the stone? Was Sirius out to kill Harry? Was Moody teaching at Hogwarts? One pages canon can become the next pages plot twist.

Originally Posted by Zgirnuis

Yes, but it is a logical fallacy to assume that therefore if there is a powerful bit of magic, there is a successful Avada Kedavra. More may be required. According to canon it is a necessary condition, but we do not know that it is also sufficient.

Very true. Canon tells us it takes that a powerful bit of magic to perform the curse(though our source of that information is not necessarily honorable) . It does not define what that entails; it does not tell us what that means. It could mean only very strong wizards, which makes me wonder how Peter could do one. Or it could imply that it’s a complex spell requiring more than just words and a wand. He does not define “powerful bit of magic” so how can we assume what it is or is not?

Originally Posted by N_D_B

“In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible.” ~ J.K. Rowling

J.K. Rowling, herself, admits to all kind of magic being fallible. Meaning, anything is possible – Dumbledore could have known the nvbl spell to stop the Avada Kedavra Snape fired at him. Dumbledore could have staged his death.. I know some – like I did – don’t/won’t believe that true. I mean, what about the fall from the Astronmy Tower – the highest tower at Hogwarts? But if you actually think about this, Dumbledore may have known another nvbl spell to stop him from hitting the ground at the speed he was falling, he could have slowed his speed or cushioned his fall, right? Dumbledore is a powerful wizard.. maybe he does have some new tricks up his sleeve?

Or everything I wrote could just be a waste of time and energy. Dumbledore’s death may be real, though I am not ready, yet, to accept it.

Not a waste at all. That quote has been mentioned before here. I happen to agree with you. It shows all magic can be fallible. The Unbreakable vow and the Killing curse (which we have already seen not work twice now) have potential to be thwarted. It does not mean they have been, only that the potential exists that they can be.

Originally Posted by cedric007

I believe Prof. Dumbledore is NOT dead...

dude, i just have a lil bit of question....in HBP, Mrs. Hepzibah Smith had shown Voldemort about her collections which are the locket and the cup..and she added that it has 'hidden power' within, but she never uses it. Instead, she just kept it for good... (i dont hve my book now coz my friend borrowed it, so i cant show the quotes from the book).

We all know that the locket and the cup is now two of voldemorts horcruxes, then if that two horcuxes has 'hidden power', it follows logically that the others posses too..

Point to slytherin ring. Dumbledore has indeed desrtoyed it (how?) as the Dark Lord's horcrux..from some part in the book, harry recognized that dumbledore wears the ring, knowing that it has 'power within...'

okey, lets make it straight... before Dumbledore was hited by avada kedavra, performed by Snape, it doesnt mentioned there that he had already took off the sytherin ring, so its a big hint, isnt it? he might used the 'power within' the ring just to fake (or whatever plan) his death...

Interesting. Wasn’t Dumbledore clutching his chest with one hand? Would it not be odd if that was the hand he had been wearing the ring on. Was it a gold ring? What if Snape hit it, like the curses that Voldemort cast in the ministry hit the statues…

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by Rowlings’s BBC Interview 2001
JKR: It's very interesting how parents think that they have the right to dictate to you because you're writing reading material for their children. I got a horrible letter on book two, very very stuffy letter, from a mother saying, "This was a very disturbing ending, and I'm sure a writer of your ability will be able to think of a better way to end the next book," so basically, "Liked it two thirds of the way through, but if you could really address this issue in future, and I'll be back in touch if I find you unacceptable". And it was at that point where I snapped and I wrote back and said, "Don't read the rest of the books. Yours sincerely, Jo Rowling." There's no point, I mean, there's no point, I'm not taking dictation here.
Do I care about my readers? Profoundly, and deeply, but... Do I ultimately think that they should dictate a single word of what I write? No. No, I'm the only one who should be in control of that. And I'm not writing to make anyone's children feel safe.

Right you are! Though there will be disagreements on alive or dead until book 7 is finally released, I think it is fair to say that as long as it makes the story outstanding conclusion we have been expecting, no one is really going to care if Dumbledore stays dead or rises from the ashes (I loved the theory and it almost swayed me except the phoenix is reborn a baby, wouldn't it be the same for Dumbledore.)

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by cedric007

Surely, for Dumbledore to have destroyed it, it would have destroyed the "power within" - that was the whole purpose of it being destroyed.And if Dumbledore would actually use L.V.'s H.C. for his own protection, then I have misjuged Albus Dumbledore entirely! Surely a great wizard, as he, would not use the enemies life saver just to save his life, after he's done what he can for Harry and Hogwarts.

?

Originally Posted by Cedric007

ohh very well, clever girl! thanks! but still, there's somethin chuckin my mind here..okay, lets say Dumbledore's main purpose of having the slytherin ring is to destroy it. But the fact Mrs. Hepzibah revealed that the locket and the cup have its own power (even if they werent yet a horcrux) is a big deal. The 'power within' in the Slytherin's ring is I am reffering to, not Voldemorts curse on it, not anything that made Dumbledore's hand blackened, but the natural power within itself.

I really don't understand what you are trying to get at...

Originally Posted by Cedric007

to Mr. cm2009:
im afraid but i shall answer your, what do you call that? still haven't found someone that will answer it. question? well, there's no one has indeed knows the right reason of JKR in killing Dumbledore coz we dont have yet the official seventh installment of Harry Potter books...but coming from mile away, i saw somethin that might be the reason of Dumbledores death--A PLAN...

Explain the plan then (or your views)

from the help of Nicole's editorial:
In his explanation of his actions to Harry, Dumbledore repeats so many times the word "plan," that I wonder what J.K. Rowling was trying to tell us. I doubt the word keeps hammering on for no good reason:

'"Five years ago you arrived at Hogwarts, Harry, safe and whole, as I had planned and intended.'" (835, OotP)
"'Five years ago, then,' continued Dumbledore, as though he had not paused in his story, 'you arrived at Hogwarts [. . .] as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances. Thus far, my plan was working well.'" (837, OotP)
"'Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine,' said Dumbledore. 'An obvious flaw that I knew, even then, might be the undoing of it all. And yet, knowing how important it was that my plan should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it.'" (837, OotP)

"'You do not see the flaw in the plan yet? No . . . perhaps not.'" (837, OotP)

"'Do you see, Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now?'" (838, OotP)

"'I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed.'" (838, OotP)

I thought this was the flaw in the plan, Dumbledore cared more about Harry's happiness then Harry knowing the truth.

what do you think if Voldemort hve noticed that Snape killed Dumbledore instead of Draco?

Snape himself says that he thinks that Voldemort intends for him (Snape) to do it in the end. What would make him think this?

Dumbledore is a brilliant, clever and well rounded wizard that no one can fool him even the Dark Lord... i point that that TRUSTWORTHY Snape and eccentric Prof. Dumbledore has a plan...

I also think that they had a plan...for Dumbledore to die and for Snape to help Harry defeat Voldemort. I think that Dumbledore wanted Snape to protect Draco, too.

I have read all the posts about three or four times, and I still have no idea where the discussion is going...I think that what I have stated in earlier posts is strong enough evidence that Dumbledore is dead. Now I know what Lord_Godric meant when he said he feels like he has deja vu.

[cruplover]

As one who is still on the fence, I'd like to comment on the deja vu also known as the circular discussion. I'd say that for the most part, those of you have formed an opinion strong enough to defend aren't likely to change your minds, no matter what the other "side" throws out as evidence. However, I find all of your discussions interesting, albeit some "hold water" better than others.

Slughorn. Frankly, I assumed he'd served his purposes when he remarked on Lily's potions ability and then again when he coughed up the memory about Tom and his horcrux question. Everything else - the faked death, the Slug Club, the bezoar moment, the Felix gift - could have been worked in with another character *IF* it was significant to the master plot - the one that runs through all seven books. I do look for Slughorn to be back as Potions Professor in book 7, because he'll feel safer at Hogwarts even without Dumbledore, and because McGonagall is going to have a very hard time finding teachers to teach any students who are allowed to attend.

Plans. Clearly, as leader of the Order, Dumbledore had plans. Whether or not they included his death if necessary or a fake death scene remains to be seen. Keep talking, and even if it seems like deja vu, or as though we're going in circles, maybe you'll stumble across some little detail to sway one of the fence-sitters in your direction.

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by cruplover

Keep talking, and even if it seems like deja vu, or as though we're going in circles, maybe you'll stumble across some little detail to sway one of the fence-sitters in your direction.

IMO I think that we all have our own opinions and we all think that we are right. I know that it would take a lot for me to believe that DD is alive or whatnot. I would love for him to be alive. Like a poster has said, it would seem "cheesy" (don't know if I would say cheesy though) and there wouldn't be tragedy before a victory. I think that if DD came back it would completely undermine what JK is doing. I mean, if DD comes back would that not go against what she has said about death? At some point Harry has to take charge in the war against Voldemort. Why not now? Why make Harry wait until that final scene to be in charge?

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by cm2009

IMO I think that we all have our own opinions and we all think that we are right. I know that it would take a lot for me to believe that DD is alive or whatnot. I would love for him to be alive. Like a poster has said, it would seem "cheesy" (don't know if I would say cheesy though) and there wouldn't be tragedy before a victory. I think that if DD came back it would completely undermine what JK is doing. I mean, if DD comes back would that not go against what she has said about death? At some point Harry has to take charge in the war against Voldemort. Why not now? Why make Harry wait until that final scene to be in charge?

I don't think you completly understand the Aliver standpoint. The main theory is that Dumbledore is alive, but is in hiding. Which would allow Dumbledore to convey information to Harry through a medium, Harry still would not know he was alive, and Harry would have to fight Voldemort on his own. The reason for Dumbledore to do this is because he will still be able to help Harry, but Harry finally realises that he is on his own, that he, not Dumbledore, must kill Voldemort, and that he, not Dumbledore, must win this war.

[MRWHITE213]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I don't think you completly understand the Aliver standpoint. The main theory is that Dumbledore is alive, but is in hiding. Which would allow Dumbledore to convey information to Harry through a medium, Harry still would not know he was alive, and Harry would have to fight Voldemort on his own. The reason for Dumbledore to do this is because he will still be able to help Harry, but Harry finally realises that he is on his own, that he, not Dumbledore, must kill Voldemort, and that he, not Dumbledore, must win this war.

Seems to be more like Voldemort, not Dumbledore to hide in the background and "pull the puppet strings" so to speak. It just seems to make more sense to be a physical presence and help Harry destroy the Horcruxes and Voldemort then to be in the shadows manipulating Harry's actions without his knowledge. A Gandolf-like reappearance just fits Dumbledore. You have to remember, you may not agree with Dumbledore, but you have to admit, he has style.

[Giavonni_Savant]

I really dont want to believe that dumbledore is dead, but there's really no way out of it... is there?


can anyone think of a way that snape avada kedavra-ed dumbledore and dumbledore somehow lived? that's not absolutely crazy or anything?

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by MRWHITE213

Seems to be more like Voldemort, not Dumbledore to hide in the background and "pull the puppet strings" so to speak. It just seems to make more sense to be a physical presence and help Harry destroy the Horcruxes and Voldemort then to be in the shadows manipulating Harry's actions without his knowledge.

True, however in HBP we see that for an entire year Voldemort takes his focus off of Harry and tried to kill Dumbledore. Even if Dumbledore did not die at the end of HBP he would have to make it look like he did so Harry could get on with the war, and finally vanquish Voldemort, because until Dumbledore is out of the way, Voldemort would keep trying to kill him. Although "dying" now puts Harry in danger, it also allows for Voldemort to continue to set store by the prophecy, which is what needs to happen for Harry to win.

A Gandolf-like reappearance just fits Dumbledore. You have to remember, you may not agree with Dumbledore, but you have to admit, he has style.

Exactly, which is why I sit on the fence!

[cm2009]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I don't think you completly understand the Aliver standpoint. The main theory is that Dumbledore is alive, but is in hiding. Which would allow Dumbledore to convey information to Harry through a medium, Harry still would not know he was alive, and Harry would have to fight Voldemort on his own. The reason for Dumbledore to do this is because he will still be able to help Harry, but Harry finally realises that he is on his own, that he, not Dumbledore, must kill Voldemort, and that he, not Dumbledore, must win this war.

I understand the theory, but I am skeptical about believing it. I give you (and anyone else) permission to flood me with "told ya so" owls if DD is in fact alive.

JKR has said that people have come close to guessing what will happen, but no one has guessed right yet. To me, that kinda wipes out any chance of DD being alive. Again, this is the way I feel and I am open to anyone who would like to "bash" my thoughts and/or feelings. I would love to continue with the debate though.

IMHO bringing DD back will take the spotlight off Harry and will take time to explain. In that time we could be learning about all these loose ends that need to be tied up. I think that JK has enough to do in this next book without explaining how/why DD faked his death.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by cm2009

I understand the theory, but I am skeptical about believing it. I give you (and anyone else) permission to flood me with "told ya so" owls if Dumbledore is in fact alive.

JKR has said that people have come close to guessing what will happen, but no one has guessed right yet. To me, that kinda wipes out any chance of Dumbledore being alive. Again, this is the way I feel and I am open to anyone who would like to "bash" my thoughts and/or feelings. I would love to continue with the debate though.

IMHO bringing Dumbledore back will take the spotlight off Harry and will take time to explain. In that time we could be learning about all these loose ends that need to be tied up. I think that JK has enough to do in this next book without explaining how/why Dumbledore faked his death.

Agreed! But if you can find a better alternative that would answer all of the questions that need to be answered, than I would believe you. I do not think the Pensieve, and letters are enough. Also Dumbledore could be the one to help tie up loose ends.

JKR has said that people have come close to guessing what will happen, but no one has guessed right yet. To me, that kinda wipes out any chance of Dumbledore being alive. Again, this is the way I feel and I am open to anyone who would like to "bash" my thoughts and/or feelings. I would love to continue with the debate though.

JK's OOTP interview," BBC Newsnight, 6/19/2003 There is one thing … it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So, you know … I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.

Edinburgh "cub reporter" press conference, 7/16/2005 Sarah Wallace for the Irish Independent - How did you think of the bond between Harry and Lord Voldemort? JK Rowling: That is another one of those questions that goes right to the heart of the series. I can't answer. It touches way too closely on book 7.

I think it has more to do with Voldemort and Harry's connection.