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  #1  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 5:31 pm
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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Guardian Devils

Discussion of the editorial Guardian Devils by Linda Fisher.


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  #2  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 6:29 pm
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Re: Guardian Devils

Humm, a very interesting editorial, with a lot of points to think over.
There are some things I totally agree with the author on, like Bellatrix being intrusted with the protection of a horcrux, and I'd go as far to say Regulus was intrusted with one too.
I'm not sure about Regulus being Stubby Boardman though, the dates are convincing and I'd love tosee Regulus in book 7, I just don't know though.
I'm also not too sure about Snape and Wormtail being trusted with Horcruxes either.
I agree with a lot of points you made about Snape, esp the part about him loving Lily. I just can't believe that he'd have never mentioned Voldemort trusting him with something important to Dumbledore.
Even though Voldemort making Peter's silverhand into a horcrux makes sence, I just don't believe it. I don't think Voldemort regards Wormtaily that highly and I think his hand may have more to do with Greyback and werewolves.
Interesting and well written editorial though, and it's given us a lot to think about until book 7.
Well done!


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  #3  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 6:38 pm
Alter_Ego29  Male.gif Alter_Ego29 is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

That was an awesome editorial, I especially liked the idea of Regulus being Stubby Boardman, it could really work like that. Good job


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  #4  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 6:41 pm
sriharish  Male.gif sriharish is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

A brilliant editorial, but I don't think Voldemort told the secret of his horcurxes to his death eaters. He never trusts any of his death eaters (ofcourse DE's like Snape can trick Voldemort)- he considers them only as servants. Not even Belatrix Lestrange. Here's a quote from Dumbledore:

"I trust that you also noticed that Tom Riddle was already highly self-sufficient, secretive, and, apparently, friendless? He did not want help or companionship on his trip to Diagon Alley. He preferred to operate alone. The adult Voldemort is the same. You will hear many of his Death Eaters claiming that they are in his confidence, that they alone are close to him, even understand him. They are deluded. Lord Voldemort has never had a friend, nor do I believe that he has ever wanted one." -HBP

This is exactly why Voldemort's past is highly important - it helps Harry to analyze certain things Dumbledore told him.

It is also very important to know where the Horcruxes are:

Hufflepuff's Cup:

Goblins are the treasure keepers, they gaurd people's property- they also think Voldemort has the right idea.

'I'm sure they'd never go over to You-Know-Who,' said Mr Weasley, shaking his head.
They've suffered losses too; remember that goblin family he murdered last time, somewhere
near Nottingham?'

'I think it depends what they're offered,' said Lupin. 'And I'm not talking about gold. If they're
offered the freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted.
-OOTP

I think Voldemort might have cut some kind of deal with Goblins in exchange for freedom.


Locked Room in Department of Mysteries (Unknown Horcrux):
Rookwood used to work in DoM so he might have hidden something precious in that locked room protected with powerful enchantments. Voldemort might have told the same story as he did to Lucius.

Locket: People think it is in 12 Grimmauld Place, but you know Mundungus was looting Sirius' stuff in HBP. So he might have sold the Locket to someone else. Now who buys stuff like that? Borgin and Burkes?

Gaurdian Devils are cetainly not Death Eaters. Its risky ye know.


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  #5  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 7:01 pm
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Re: Guardian Devils

The idea that Voldemort involved his Death Eaters (DEs) seems to be popular, but it is flatly refuted by the canon. Dumbledore stresses the following things to Harry and to the readers:
  1. Voldemort trusts nobody, including his DEs;
  2. Voldemort needs nobody, including his DEs, as Voldemort is both self-reliant and a truly formidable wizard;
  3. None of the DE's had any idea about the Horcruxes: they knew that Voldemort was aspiring to immortality but they had no idea that he already had achieved it;
  4. Bellatrix and the other DE's are deluded when they think that Voldemort has entrusted them with his secrets: yes, Bellatrix says this, but she is a clueless fanatic;
  5. The Diary was a singularly unique Horcrux, designed to be a weapon as much as a Horcrux.

Another big flaw with the whole editorial is that it is predicated on the idea that Voldemort is concerned about not being there in person to protect his Horcruxes. However, if we look at the Cave, we see two things:
1. They are explicitly designed to protect the Horcrux in Voldemort's absence;
2. Voldemort does not visit his Horcruxes often at all
Regulus died at least a 22 months before Voldemort fell (Regulus died in 1979, Voldemort fell on Halloween 1981);
Dumbledore and Harry get there two years after Voldemort returned in full physical form, which means that Voldemort had gone nearly 4 years without visiting the cave;
This indicates both that Voldemort did not visit his Cave often and that he did not have any "alarm" telling him that he needed to get there to defend it. Thus, Voldemort's defense plans never include him being physically present to defend them. This, of course, makes sense: he needs them protected if he is short a body.
Finally, the DE's chosen are all wrong.

Regulus: The locket was stolen in the late 1940's and turned into a Horcrux years by the 1950's (given the Horcrux damage to Voldemort at that time); Regulus was born in the 1960s. The Horcrux was almost certainly hidden long before he was born. Regulus somehow figured this out on his own, and that will be the importance to the plot: once Harry figures this out, he can learn what Regulus knew through Kreacher. Because Harry knows that there are multiple Horcruxes (Regulus would have assumed only one, of course, as Voldemort was the first to even consider 2+ it seems), Regulus' "notes" no doubt will be used in part to get to Horcrux #4.

Bellatrix: her claim to be entrusted with Voldemort's deepest secrets was an example of the delusion to which Dumbledore refers. Now, did she know some secrets? Sure: for example, she is a good candidate for having known that it was actually Pettigrew, not Black, who was the traitor. This would have been a very well-kept secret because the identity of your spies must be kept secret from the other sides' spies: if all the DEs knew that Pettigrew was a spy, then Dumbledore's spies posing as DEs would quickly alert Dumbledore.

Given that Bellatrix is now on the outs with Voldemort and given that Voldemort is incapable of understanding that people are truly loyal to him, if Bellatrix had known such a critical secret, then Voldemort should have killed her, assuming that she would retaliate for being cut out of his inner circle.


As for Snape and Pettigrew, they both cannot be involved. One of the Horcruxes is the Cup, which was a Horcrux prior to the births of either of them. If the premises of this hypothesis were sound, then it should be an older DE who is guarding them. Pettigrew certainly is a poor choice: Voldemort knows that Pettigrew is not truly loyal to him, but serves purely out of fear. Snape probably perplexes even Voldemort somewhat.


So, look for the two hidden Horcruxes to be hidden in the same way that the Ring and the Locket were: in some fairly remote location with potent magical defenses that preclude the need for any physical guardianship. Look for Regulus' legacy to include clues to where at least one of those Horcruxes is, simply because Regulus must have researched Voldemort's history fairly well. We should keep in mind that Regulus had a source of information that Dumbledore did not: older Death Eaters, some of whom were schoolmates of Voldemort's and who thus probably heard about things like young Tom torturing foul Muggles in a cave while on a school outing, long before Voldemort would have wanted to halt all mention of the Cave and other privately important places.


One final thing to keep in mind is that it is possible that Dumbledore was entirely wrong. However, JKR has told us that Dumbledore is usually right, and he is (was!) the foremost expert on Voldemort. Dumbledore's lessons to Harry was to understand how Voldemort operates. If this editorial is correct, then Dumbledore and Harry are entirely wrong about how Voldemort operates. This means that Harry has no hope at all of succeeding, because knowledge is Harry's key weapon at this point.

As JKR has said that Harry knows more than he realizes that he knows, not less, I think that we should assume that Dumbledore is right and that the DEs are in no way involved in the Horcruxes and that Voldemort has done all of this on his own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sriharish
Hufflepuff's Cup:
Goblins are the treasure keepers, they gaurd people's property- they also think Voldemort has the right idea.

One of Dumbledore's lessons is that Voldemort will be hiding the Horcruxes in places of personal importance to him. Also, they do not think that Voldemort has the right idea: Voldemort murdered prominent Goblins, after all. The Goblins are an allegory for the Swiss: they are carefully neutral. Voldemort would not trust them, nor is their bank of any personal importance to Voldemort.

Locked Room in Department of Mysteries (Unknown Horcrux): Rookwood used to work in DoM so he might have hidden something precious in that locked room protected with powerful enchantments. Voldemort might have told the same story as he did to Lucius.
Remember, the Diary was an oddity. Also, it was given to Malfoy in a plot that would have resulted in the Diary being hidden someplace of great importance to Voldemort: the Chamber of Secrets. We have no reason to think that the DoM is of importance to Voldemort.


Locket: People think it is in 12 Grimmauld Place, but you know Mundungus was looting Sirius' stuff in HBP. So he might have sold the Locket to someone else. Now who buys stuff like that? Borgin and Burkes? [/quote]

There is no indication that Mundungus had gotten into Kreacher's Swag. If he had, then JKR would have tipped us off by showing him have the picture frames and other things that Kreacher recovered at the time that Harry et al. found the Locket.

Instead, Dung got busted with the silverware that he was seen coveting in OotP. In other words, he got nailed while getting the first stuff that he would have nicked. There is no reason to think that Dung even had a clue where Kreacher kept his stuff, never mind that Kreacher had anything: Dung was a bit busy trying to hawk stolen cauldrons when all of that was happening.


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Last edited by Wimsey; July 23rd, 2006 at 7:13 pm.
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  #6  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 7:05 pm
Erendis  Female.gif Erendis is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Well, a brilliant theory. But I'm not sure if Lord Voldemort would ever trsut Snape with a horcrux, even if he didn't tell Snape what the item was (and if Voldemort did, I think Snape would have told Dumbledore). I think that Voldemort would have to know how smart Snape was, as oppossed to some of the others, so Voldemort might have feared to give one to Snape because Snape might have been able to figure out the puzzle. And besides, he might not be loyal to his master.

ANother problem I have with the theory is that I'm not sure that Voldemort would want Snape and Wormtail working together closely. I mean, if they were both horcrux holders, one might eventually figure it out if too much information was shared.

We'll have to find out later on this. We know that Voldemort would have to entrust Lucius with the horcrux if he wanted the horcrux used as a weapon at Hogwarts, since Lucius had access to the school as one of the governors. Or he could have used Snape for the same, but that's too risky, as we saw that Voldemort gave it to Lucius. But we have no solid proof about anyone else. And Voldemort likes to operate independently.

Of course, the RAB theory (Regulus hides the horcrux) has some merit to it, but maybe Voldemort just thought that Regulus was too young, and therefore too stupid, to figure out about the horcrux.


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Old July 23rd, 2006, 7:15 pm
SoccerDM  Undisclosed.gif SoccerDM is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

I found this to be one of the better editorials written in the recent past. I really enjoyed it.

However, I do not agree that Voldemort would trust his Death Eaters enough to the extent of giving them his Horcruxes. He trusts no one. Yes, this particular theory shows that he mislead the Death Eaters, hence, not completely trusting them with the true nature of the objects/horcruxes he was giving them. And yes, Voldemort did send the Death Eaters on very important missions, a.k.a. retrieving the prophecy. The difference in the two is that Voldemort let the Death Eaters know exactly what he wanted with the prophecy, there wasn't any mystery to that particular order he gave. But the Horcruxes were a mislead secret. I can't see Voldemort making a careless mistake in trusting others, which may be detrimental to his immortality.

If your theory about the Death Eater Guardians IS true, then we have another possibility for why Dumbledore completely trusts Snape. Perhaps the "Iron Clad Reason" is because Snape gave up the Horcrux that Voldmort had entrusted to him, to Dumbledore. The problem with this theory is that Dumbledore would then have been aware of the existence of Voldemort's Horcruxes well before Voldemort became Vapormort and before Harry revealed what the Riddle Diary had done in CoS. Dumbledore had stated that once he heard Harry’s story about Tom Riddle’s diary taking Ginny’s life force to materialize down in the CoS, that he started to suspect a Horcrux.



Last edited by SoccerDM; July 23rd, 2006 at 7:18 pm.
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  #8  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 8:02 pm
Toostollo Toostollo is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Well , well, well

That was an interesting editorial full of interesting points.

My main problem is the theory that Regulus really is alive. I'm thinking of the fact that Harry inherited Grimauld Place from Sirius and that Kreacher now is bound to harry by the houself enslavement.

If he, regulus, really is alive then Kreacher would have seen him as his new Master not Harry.

anyhow, good editorial!

Toostollo


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  #9  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 8:11 pm
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Re: Guardian Devils

There are some points I disagree with. As Wimsey stated, the diary was not a "normal" horcrux. It is not an important magical object. It was merely Voldemort's first go at horcrux making. So how the diary was treated by Voldemort is not how the other horcruxes were treated.
I also diagree with Wormtail's hand being a horcrux. Voldemort gives Wormtail a hand to stop his whining. Voldemort also knows that Wormtail is weak, a known traitor who only came to his aid because Siruis and Lupin found him out. Voldemort would never trust Wormtail (or anyone) to walk around during a war with a piece of his soul on their body. The only expection is Nagini, who I think it a good candiate for being a horcrux. Voldemort can control her better than any Death Eater. She's not weak like Wormtail. I think it will be very hard to kill her.


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  #10  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 9:08 pm
MooMooImADuck  Undisclosed.gif MooMooImADuck is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Very good editorial!

A few ideas that were a bit of a stretch, but all in all-very nice.


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  #11  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 9:58 pm
1hp2  Female.gif 1hp2 is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey

Finally, the DE's chosen are all wrong.

Regulus: The locket was stolen in the late 1940's and turned into a Horcrux years by the 1950's (given the Horcrux damage to Voldemort at that time); Regulus was born in the 1960s. The Horcrux was almost certainly hidden long before he was born.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimsey

As for Snape and Pettigrew, they both cannot be involved. One of the Horcruxes is the Cup, which was a Horcrux prior to the births of either of them. If the premises of this hypothesis were sound, then it should be an older DE who is guarding them. Pettigrew certainly is a poor choice: Voldemort knows that Pettigrew is not truly loyal to him, but serves purely out of fear. Snape probably perplexes even Voldemort somewhat.
It is possible that Voldemort stole the locket and had it in his possession for quite a while before making it into a horcrux. is 1950's just a likely assumption on your part, or is their some canon that I have overlooked?

I think that if he did assign de's to protect his horcruxes, I don't think he told any of them what they really are.

Also, it is very likely given what Dumbledore said about Voldemort not trusting people or having true friends (several posts have already mentioned this) that the diary was the only horcrux he gave out. It is kind of weird that the TOm Riddle in the diary knew about Voldemorts downfall. (I guess ginny could have told him, but it seems he prompted her for info aftershe first mentioned Harry.) How does a peice of Voldemorts soul ripped apart and stored outside his body, before that night at Godric's Hollow know this info? And if it is because somehow the soul is still connected why wouldn't it work in reverse? Why does Voldemort not have a connection with his soul pieces?

Is it possible the Voldemort turned the diary into a horcrux and into plan b? After hearing the prophecy he could have enable the diary to try and bring a piece of his soul and his body back together. Is that why the horcrux seemed to take on its own identity?

Chances are Voldemort did not share info aboiut his horcruxes (what if they did the same thing? they could be as powerful as him!) And he very well could have given Lucious the diary simply to try and reopen the Chamber. Lucious would follow his masters orders. He certainly would like the idea of killing muggle borns. Also Malfoy would have access. It is possible that Narcissa was pregnant or just gave birth to a son when Voldemort gave Lucious the diary. He would then have easy access through Draco, or his schoolmates to get the diary back into Hogwarts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoccerDM

If your theory about the Death Eater Guardians IS true, then we have another possibility for why Dumbledore completely trusts Snape. Perhaps the "Iron Clad Reason" is because Snape gave up the Horcrux that Voldmort had entrusted to him, to Dumbledore. The problem with this theory is that Dumbledore would then have been aware of the existence of Voldemort's Horcruxes well before Voldemort became Vapormort and before Harry revealed what the Riddle Diary had done in CoS. Dumbledore had stated that once he heard Harry’s story about Tom Riddle’s diary taking Ginny’s life force to materialize down in the CoS, that he started to suspect a Horcrux.
Also, if Dumbledore knew of a Snape protected Horcrux. why didn't he tell Harry. Not tell him the Snape part, but just of the Horcruxes exsistence and what obect it was. Dumbledore knew Draco was trying to kill him. He knew Snape had to do it if he failed. I doubt he would keep important info like a known horcrux from harry given Dumbledore's high chances of being killed. He wouldn't want Harry to waste time searching for a horcrux he had already found and destroyed.

Your idea could be true, if Snape was the guardian of the ring. But it seems as if Dumbledore figured that out on his own. Plus, what your said about not knowing about Voldemorts horcruxes until COS, seems to indicate no Snape involvement.

[quote=snapegirl77]There are some points I disagree with. As Wimsey stated, the diary was not a "normal" horcrux. It is not an important magical object. It was merely Voldemort's first go at horcrux making. QUOTE]

I thought the flashbacks made it seem as if the ring was the 1st horcrux.



Last edited by 1hp2; July 23rd, 2006 at 10:24 pm.
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  #12  
Old July 23rd, 2006, 10:36 pm
yappa1  Undisclosed.gif yappa1 is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

I like the theory you presented but would like to add this thought, Voldemort insisting that he gets his wand back. this wand was made for him without the special BONE handle. This wand has been modified by Voldemort or for Voldemort. He would probably want another made but the only pheonix known just left. This brings a need for Harry and Voldemort. I also think that RAB is Regulas and is dead. If he isn't dead then Harry could not have inherited the house and Kreacher.
Stubby is just Stubby.


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Old July 24th, 2006, 2:03 am
jmas1357 jmas1357 is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Wonderful!

The idea that Voldemort had his Death Eaters guard his Horcruxes makes perfect sense. This is another illustration of Voldemort 'using' people and in no way suggests that he saw his Death Eaters as friends, but more as servants. Perfect fit with everything Dumbledore told Harry about V.

The piece about RAB being alive is a digression from the general theory and not as interesting. Personally, I see no real use for bringing RAB back into the picture. That would just be several additional chapters in already very long book (I'm not complaining! I'd be happy with 1000 pages for Book 7). But RAB wouldn't add anything vital to the story. And there are already so many loose ends to tie up.



Last edited by jmas1357; July 24th, 2006 at 2:06 am.
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  #14  
Old July 24th, 2006, 2:05 am
Redbluemel Redbluemel is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

I really, really liked this artical. I thought it was right on target, very plausible and well thought out. I know exactly how the author felt in the "foreword" paragraph when she said that she's been marvelling a bit jealously for a long time at the clever analyses written by scores of readers far more perceptive than herself. I know exactly how she feels--that's how I felt until I wrote my artical (Half-Blood Antagonist), and now I'm tapped, so I really revere people like Lady Lupin who just keep coming up with really great stuff over and over again.

My only miff with this artical is small--and I must make it abundantly clear that I am NOT in the redemption for Snape camp--if Snape has been entrusted with a horcrux, which I can definately go along with, destroying 1/7th of Voldemort's soul in no way redeems him from killing all of Dumbledore, making Harry utterly miserable for 6 years, and being a life-long right foul git. The math doesn't work out.


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  #15  
Old July 24th, 2006, 2:28 am
utcourt013 utcourt013 is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

very well written, good points..however i dont see how regulus black could still be alive..i thought that he was for a while, that he was "hidden more completely than anyone can imagine" (Dumbledore, HBP) by the Order, but if Regulus is still alive, then how is Kreacher entrusted to Harry? If anyone from the immediate Black family was still alive, then Kreacher would be in their service. Very thought provoking editorial though


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Old July 24th, 2006, 4:39 am
Idabomb333  Undisclosed.gif Idabomb333 is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Interesting and well done, but wrong.

Not only can we conclude that Regulus is dead because Harry inherited the house, as several others have said, we know Regulus is dead because JKR said so in an interview. It bothers me that so many avid fans are unaware of that.

Also, Voldemort cannot have intended for Regulus to know about the locket or the cave. Remember, even if the Black Family Tree is wrong (and I don't think there's any reason to believe that) about WHEN Regulus died, everyone thinks he died in 79 for defecting from the DEs. That's well before Godric's Hollow, so Voldemort knows about that.

So even if Regulus did not in fact die then, Voldemort should be one of the people who thinks he died for defecting. If Voldemort thought that a Horcrux protector defected, he would certainly check on the Horcrux. Add in the wording of the note, and it couldn't be much clearer that Voldemort had no idea that Regulus knew about the locket or the cave.

I do think that you make some reasonable points about Bellatrix, though. The fact that she had faith that Voldemort would return is interesting. I would add that it makes sense for Voldemort to give DEs tasks without fully trusting them because it makes them feel trusted, like Bellatrix, and enhances their loyalty to him. Also, in an interview, JKR said something about Bellatrix and co being sent after the Longbottoms, presumably by someone who knew about the prophecy. I wonder if there's some source that told Bella Voldemort would return and sent them after the Longbottoms.


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Old July 24th, 2006, 5:21 am
T_Brightwater T_Brightwater is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Dumbledore believed that Tom Riddle trusted no one but himself, and even theorized that a Philosopher's Stone had less appeal to him as a means to immortality than multiple Horcruxes, because he woud have to keep making and drinking Elixir of Life, leaving him vulnerable if the Stone was ever stolen. How much more vulnerable would it make him to have pieces of his soul in the care of Death Eaters who might betray him for their own advantage at any time?

Also, since Voldemort knows what happened to the diary, if any other Horcruxes had been entrusted to DEs, I would expect that he would have checked on their safety immediately and probably have moved them himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hp2
It is kind of weird that the TOm Riddle in the diary knew about Voldemorts downfall. (I guess ginny could have told him, but it seems he prompted her for info aftershe first mentioned Harry.) How does a peice of Voldemorts soul ripped apart and stored outside his body, before that night at Godric's Hollow know this info?
CoS, ch 17, p 311 (American hardcover):

"Well, you see, Ginny told me all about you, Harry, " said Riddle. "Your whole fascinating history."


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Old July 24th, 2006, 6:57 am
Aliesha  Undisclosed.gif Aliesha is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

This is a bit of a tangent inspired by this editorial, what if possibly Bellatrix and friends attacked the Longbottoms because they had a horcrux, or they once confiscated one from Death Eaters.


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Old July 24th, 2006, 7:46 am
mommcgonagall  Female.gif mommcgonagall is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Brilliant theory!!--Loved all of it.

I figured Regulus is alive and disguised as someone, but my leading contenders are Dung or Mrs. Figg--never thought of Stubby!!!

I think you're absolutely right about DE's gurarding horcruxes--it's all there--Snape probably has the cup or the Ravenclaw item, and Bella has the opposite one. Excellent and Bloody Brilliant!!!!

Wormtail's new and improved "Michael Jackson glove" instead of the snake--again, Bloody Brilliant!!!!!!

Just one thing I want to know--where is Sirius' motorbike?????

Well done!!

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Old July 24th, 2006, 10:51 am
KZan  Female.gif KZan is offline
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Re: Guardian Devils

Ah, the silver hand. I tried to have my editorial about that one posted shortly after the release of HBP, but someone at Mugglenet doesn't like my style! I find it interesting that Voldemort has Pettigrew under Snape's watchful eye in the 2nd chapter of HBP. That was my primary reason for suspecting that Pettigrew's hand was a horcrux. I liked your editorial, glad yours got posted:-)


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