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The Changing Face of Courage



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  #1  
Old July 29th, 2006, 4:56 pm
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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The Changing Face of Courage

Discussion of the editorial The Changing Face of Courage by Darrell Fuller.


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  #2  
Old July 29th, 2006, 5:13 pm
chey_umbridge  Female.gif chey_umbridge is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

Very wonderful editorial! When I first read the first part of your article about Harry's patronus changing I wondered what it would change into. I almost immediately thought a phoenix. Loved it and I agree 100%.


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  #3  
Old July 29th, 2006, 5:36 pm
GryffinclawD  Male.gif GryffinclawD is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

I loved and totally agree with the literary implications of Harry's patronus changing, however, I think it changed later than that...the day night of the Lightning Struck Tower, because, we had seen Harry use his patronus during his DADA OWL exams.


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Old July 29th, 2006, 6:04 pm
Lady_Sirius  Female.gif Lady_Sirius is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

I agree with this article but you never know with JK Rowling! She may show us a pensieve where James Potter is older and does something truly courageous, so that Harry's faith in his father is restored!
But if there is a change, like GriffinclawD, I think the timing of the change may have been different. I think it may have been after Dumbledore passed away, after the scene in the hospital where they sit and listened to the pheonix song. Truly, Dumbledore's man through and through...

Wouldn't it freak Voldemort out to see a human-shaped Dumbledore patronus emerging to fight the Dementor army???? (hee hee hee!)

LS


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Old July 29th, 2006, 8:33 pm
Golden_Snitch  Female.gif Golden_Snitch is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

This is a really cool theory! We have however, as GryffinclawD pointed out, seen Harry's Patronus since Snape's Worst Memory. That isn't to say that Harry's Patronus won't change though ... Like I said, really interesting!


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  #6  
Old July 29th, 2006, 8:43 pm
mrh216  Female.gif mrh216 is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

An interesting idea and one that I would not be opposed to, but....we have seen Harry's Patronus since Snape's Worst Memory. He performed the charm during his DADA OWL. It was a stag (p. 714 US hardcover). I don't really see any reason why Harry's Patronus should change anyway. He already knew about his mother dying to protect him, and that was a very courageous thing to do. The problem with the Patronus being associated with Lily is that that is not really an animal associated with her, as far as know. I alos don't think that Dumbledore's connection to Harry is strong enough for the Patronus to change. I think that Jo made a conscious effort to have Harry's Patronus associated with James; it shows that James has not truly gone. And that James's legacy is in more that Harry's extraordinary resemblance.


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  #7  
Old July 29th, 2006, 10:29 pm
belsito  Female.gif belsito is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

As far as I can remember, Harry produced his stag patronus before he knew that his father became one when he transformed. Didn't Lupin tell Harry about James being an animagus well after Harry had produced his patronus at the Quidditch match when Malfoy dressed up as a dementor? I highly doubt that Harry's patronus will change. I don't think that we've seen the last of the Phoenix yet however, but I'm more inclined to think that it would continue to come to Harry's aid because of Harry's continued loyalty to Dumbledore and his ideals. I also think that Godric's sword will feature again as will the chamber of secrets since its name implies that there is more than the one secret it has yielded this far. Harry might have felt momentarily disappointed with his father for bullying Snape but I'm sure that whatever shred of sympathy he might have felt for Snape at the time, it has now been completely wiped out after the events of Book 6. He must be pretty convinced, by this stage in the story that, unlike a lot of Snape-lovers on this net, that Snape was only getting what he deserved. Does anyone suppose that Snape never attacked anyone? Does anyone think that the nasty little curses he was lovingly writing down in his potions book were never tried out on anyone?
We have been told that Snape and James attacked one another as often as they got a chance.


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  #8  
Old July 29th, 2006, 10:41 pm
MagicLantern  Undisclosed.gif MagicLantern is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

Everyone said it before me. The timing is not right, but the idea is great! And I guessed where you were going. With Dumbledore dying, with Harry feeling that Dumbledore is still alive inside him (so much like his father), i.e. he is only gone when no one here is loyal to him: that fits beautifully. I'm waiting for the Patronus Phoenix! (and its meaning that Harry will die but be resurrected).

On the side, I am looking forward to understanding what the argument between Harry and Snape was about: the best way to tackle a Dementor. What's Snape's problem with a Patronus? And what's his method? Surely Rowling will show us (but that would mean Snape will be fighting Dementors, i.e. fighting for the good side at some point).


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  #9  
Old July 29th, 2006, 10:53 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

Actually, I'd love to see Harry's Patronus change to something related to Lily. It is amazing how little interest he has in her when he knows she died for him.


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  #10  
Old July 30th, 2006, 12:19 am
Grumpyboy  Undisclosed.gif Grumpyboy is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

So what would this mean for Hermione's patronis?

It is an Otter.
(potter?)

So what would this mean for Hermione's patronis?

It is an Otter.

She is protected by what?
(potter link?)
Industrious, hard work protects her?

Any thoughts?


I still think she is Harry's Sister.


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  #11  
Old July 30th, 2006, 1:06 am
king king is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

While it's possible JKR may choose to change the appearance of Harry's Patronus, I don't see that it's necessary. I like the Stag myself. Not because a stag was James Potter's Animagus form, but because a synonym for "stag" is "hart", which sounds a lot like "heart". In other words, Harry's protector is love. Maybe Harry's stag patronus is related to Lily. If Tonks has a Patronus in the form of Lupin's animal shape, why wouldn't Lily have had a Patronus in James' animal shape? We know that Lily's love and blood sacrifice has helped to protect Harry, why shouldn't Harry be protected by Lily's Hart.

As for Hermione, come on, she's not Harry's sister. Hermione is ten and half months older than Harry. That's awfully close spacing. I mean really, give Lily a break.


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  #12  
Old July 30th, 2006, 1:47 am
lizztigger  Female.gif lizztigger is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

I like the (P)otter idea, I think Hermionie would see Harry as a protector, but not because he's her brother but because he protects her.
*wills myself not to point to H/Hrshippiness.... not the topic.....*
I like the idea of the phoenix, but I think it's a bit late in the game, and I always thought the idea of Harry still being connected to his parents who died to save him, even though he never knew them. Harry doesn't need Dumbdore as a patronis for Dumbledore to stay with him.


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  #13  
Old July 30th, 2006, 2:58 am
Dumbledoresgal7  Female.gif Dumbledoresgal7 is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

um..sorry but I'm not convinced that Harry's patronus changed...but it is a pretty good theory and that was a well written editorial. The posts above this basically explained why i dont think it changed


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  #14  
Old July 30th, 2006, 4:01 am
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

Firstly, I am surprised this editorial got past the moderators. The theory that Harry's patronus will change is an old one. It is nearly as old as HBP itself having been first brought up very shortly after the release of the book.

Secondly, this editorial contains a glaring error which several other reviewers have already pointed out. Harry cast a stag patronus during his OWL exam.

Finally, I myself submitted a similar theory months ago which seems to have vanished into oblivion. I agree with you that Harry's patronus will become a phoenix but I think that the transformation will occur between books six and seven. Harry is, after all, now arguably the greatest living wizard and is in effect the leader of the Order of the Phoenix. We have already seen other witches and wizards show their loyalty to him on three occasions. (going to the ministry for the battle at the end of OotP, responding to Harry's call for former DA members to assist in defending Hogwarts in the battle that led to Dumbledore's death and through Ron and Hermione saying they will follow Harry in the horcrux hunt (both during HBP)).


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Old July 30th, 2006, 6:28 am
GinnysHex  Female.gif GinnysHex is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

A good editorial very well written.

If his patronus has changed I think it would be reasonable to guess that a Phoenix would be a good form to take but I don't think that it has. I believe that it still a stag a will remain a stag for always. He might have felt a little disappointed and upset with what what he had seen but I don't think that it was upsetting enough with change his patronus form.


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  #16  
Old July 30th, 2006, 10:44 am
misskneazle  Female.gif misskneazle is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

Quote:
Originally Posted by belsito
As far as I can remember, Harry produced his stag patronus before he knew that his father became one when he transformed. Didn't Lupin tell Harry about James being an animagus well after Harry had produced his patronus at the Quidditch match when Malfoy dressed up as a dementor? I highly doubt that Harry's patronus will change. I don't think that we've seen the last of the Phoenix yet however, but I'm more inclined to think that it would continue to come to Harry's aid because of Harry's continued loyalty to Dumbledore and his ideals. I also think that Godric's sword will feature again as will the chamber of secrets since its name implies that there is more than the one secret it has yielded this far. Harry might have felt momentarily disappointed with his father for bullying Snape but I'm sure that whatever shred of sympathy he might have felt for Snape at the time, it has now been completely wiped out after the events of Book 6. He must be pretty convinced, by this stage in the story that, unlike a lot of Snape-lovers on this net, that Snape was only getting what he deserved. Does anyone suppose that Snape never attacked anyone? Does anyone think that the nasty little curses he was lovingly writing down in his potions book were never tried out on anyone?
We have been told that Snape and James attacked one another as often as they got a chance.
Great points, I agree with every single thing you've said


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Old July 30th, 2006, 11:46 am
norway  Female.gif norway is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

I agree with you. Good editorial. Harry has suffered too much emotional turmoil not to have his patronus effected. (i never believed that tonks's changing was merely for the fact that jo was demonstrating lupin and tonks as an item, it has a greater resonance ). I think it would change because of what happened at the end of book 6. Dumbledore is a surrogate father figure (sirius was a brother and father, but was not very good as a role model, too hypocritical, and had severe mood swings, DONT GET ME WRONG I LOVED HIM, i cried for 3 days after i finished book five, but i have to be objective to get a proper idea of the outcome)
You didnt mention that Dumbledore's patronus was also a phoenix (we see it in GoF when he summons Hagrid after Victor was attacked). Harry is a lot like Dumbledore he just doesnt see it yet. He shares the same values, and even at the funeral, he showed signs of a personaloty as determined as dumbledores to sacrifice all personal comfort for the cause. EVen dumbledore's sense of humour, is becoming apparent. (he laughed at a few things during the funeral that showed a optimism very similar to dumbledore's, remebering the good as well as the sadness of regret)

Bribe> The moderators thought this editorial was good and used good evidence (even though faulty on a couple of points). Its not this authors fault yours wasnt chosen. And the Snape and the RAB thing is old, but we're still getting editorials on it. People can bring different perspectives on the same thoery.


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  #18  
Old July 30th, 2006, 4:40 pm
im_her_one  Female.gif im_her_one is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

This was a good editorial. However, Harry does the Patronus Charm at his DADA practical OWL (after seeing "Snape's Worst Memory) and it is still a stag. However, he does suffer more emotional upheaval after that point (Sirius' death), so it is still possible for his patronus to change. In fact, I kind of like the idea of it changing to a phoenix purely because of the CoS foreshadowing ("I will only truly have left when none here are loyal to me").


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Old July 30th, 2006, 5:21 pm
Sunset_Pride  Female.gif Sunset_Pride is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

I enjoy reading all editorials but this one I wasn't fond of. It was inluminating but I doubt that Harry's Patronus will change because I think he still believes in his father and at the end of HBP he sounded upset, disappointed, and maybe a touch of anger when he said that Dumbledore had left the scjool, had left the world, had left Harry... I know Harry was close to Dumbledore but still don't see even though a lot has happened.
I think Tonks changed because she was sad about Siruis's death but also because Lupin was refusing to be with her and yet she wanted him.
I think Harry still respects his father because he died in hope of saving him and his wife. So I think his patronus will stay a stag.


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  #20  
Old July 30th, 2006, 10:19 pm
vlasiou  Female.gif vlasiou is offline
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Re: The Changing Face of Courage

I disagree for various reasons. First, I would not like, and I do not think if it would be desirable if Harry would turn into a mini-Dumbledore. Having a Phoenix as a Patronus would only underline their connection. I would like Harry to mature independently from Dumbledore; D was the master, but the pupil has to follow his own path and having a phoenix as a Patronus would only confuse that notion of independence. Second, I do not believe that Harry's emotional upheaval is anything compared to the pain Tonks felt. Tonks started to lose her powers. She could not transform, and this was her gift by birth. I've lost a father and I've lost a love; the pain is not comparable though. Losing a protector/father was for me a strong pain with duration but nothing that brought me to the point of not wanting to live. Losing a lover was a much stronger pain, and of course a short lived one. I mainly grew out of it in a year or so. Although Harry admired and loved Dumbledore in a way, I do not think that it compares with the kind of love Tonks had for her favourite warewolf. Finally, many people had been saved more than once from Dumbledore (e.g. Hagrid) and where hurt deeply from his death (e.g. Hagrid again who probably had the strongest reaction from all), but I do not think this is a sufficient argument to make them all have a phoenix as a Patronus.

Naturally Harry is our hero, but I do not see the added value of changing his patronus, neither do I see the poetry in having a phoenix chasing a large number of Dementors. It should be Harry chasing them, and something symbolising Harry -not a memory of Dumbledore. This is Harry's story.


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