Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

[rubeus06]

maybe not

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Fuelpagan

I don't think tormenting Harry was the true reason Snape wanted to talk to Harry that night. And the real reason was to put the idea in Harry's mind about patronuses changing. Which is the one thing you can't duplicate if you are planning to impersonate someone. And patronuses are the most secure means of communication, so it would be important to still be able to use a patronus during these times while impersonating someone else.

Snape has a habit of turning up at inconvenient times. He also is the one to deal with Harry and Ron after they hit the Whomping Willow with the car in CoS. I agree that it seemed a little suspicious the way Snape turned up and pointed out the fact that Tonks' patronus had changed. I agee that it seems like the purpose of the conversation was to show Harry how a patronus can change. So, that could mean that this fact will come into play in DH. Or this can mean nothing. How many people's patronuses does Harry even know about. We haven't seen too many of them. JK Rowling said that she can't reveal Snape's patronus because it would give us too much information, or something like that. I can't think of too many patronuses that we know about besides Harry's, Lupin's and Tonks. I'm not sure where this theory is going.

[taupimu]

The only time I can think Snape would want to use Felix would be on his encounters with Voldemort. It seems that he would need all the luck he could get to keep him convinced they would still working on the same side.

He may have not wanted to know exactly what Draco was doing as long as he could keep him alive. I don't see a need to take the potion here.

To me the difference between Harry using Felix and Dumbledore using it to find the information Slughorn had is leverage. Harry had something that would break Slughorn and make him feel guilty about what happened to Lily. I'm not sure that Dumbledore had the same thing.

As to how the potion works, I think that it just enhances your abilities to the very best possible under ideal conditions. I agree that if the task were impossible to begin with it would still be impossible. Like....Mrs. Figg could take the potion and still not be able to produce a patronus to help Harry in the alley. Of course, maybe the potion doesn't work at all on non magical people.

[LexiBlack]

Originally Posted by Fuelpagan

Maybe Snape had a need to let Harry know about patronuses changing in a way the was inconspicuous. In my view, this was the last piece Snape needed in place for his future plan to work. Which we will see in DH. And is the real reason why the chapter is named "Snape Victorious" and not the superficial one of getting the DADA job.

You do have a point. I suppose we will find out in a few months. I am curious though... do you have any ideas as to what this big plan is?

Originally Posted by Fuelpagan

I don't think tormenting Harry was the true reason Snape wanted to talk to Harry that night. And the real reason was to put the idea in Harry's mind about patronuses changing.

I just don't understand why patronuses changing would be something that Snape would need to tell Harry. I know you said something about impersonating a person. But if a patronsus can change then I don't understand how this is benefical to Harry.

[Sugar_High]

I am in support of this theory b/c how else would snape be able to b a traitor to a side (light/dark) for so long? also, i think harry(or someone) should have been able to hit him with something to slow him down.

[Kerry]

I'm sorry I haven't replied in so long. I'm no longer recieving e-mail notices on this thread for some reason...

Felix, I think, could not be descrived as a person. However, it almost could. It has to be able to make decisons on how to best help a person achieve their goals. Felix has to have things we see in the magical world, including:
The ability to think and plan ahead more than a few seconds is the thing that seperates the human conciousness from most animals. Our ability for providence. There are few animals who can do this. Felix has to be able to plan ahead to lead a person to do something usually beyond normal capacity or odds.
One of the other things Felix needs is the ability to prioritize the user's goals. This also requires a conciousness of sorts to beable to take in information and sort it.
The third thing Felix needs to have is the ability to see the future, in a sense. They have to know when, how and what things are going to happen to place its user there.
The fourth thing felix has to have is the ability to influence others. It has to influence its user to get him or her in the right place at the right time and in the right position. It also has to influence others that need to be there to be there.


Felix is not quite a human conciousness, but it does display some of the traits we see in humans and/or wizards


On the subject of Snape using Felix, what's to say that he hasn't been using it all along? Maybe he hasn't used it as heavily as he is now (supposidly)but he could have been using it. He seems to have almost too perfect timing sometimes. OF course, this could just be JKR's advancemetn of the plot and i'm just reading into it way too much...

And why would Snape take Felix? I mean, he has a reputaion to maintain, expecially if he's making a bid for power. Also, there's the side efects to consider. If he doesn't manage to completely counteract them with his skill, he could end up dead, humiliated, or on the wrong end of a Death Eater's or Harry's wand. But power is an intoxicating thing. Once you have a taste you always want more. Also, revenge is a powerful motivator, with fear right there too. Snape could see Felix as a way out. The more pressure put on him, the more he'll use it. But he won't for get the side effects and all he's risked to get as far as he has. He'll be careful, not taking it unless he's sure he has to use it.

As to why he takes it when he does: I think there's an important underlying conflict Harry ahsn't found yet that's waiting to explode out into the open. Something will be up with Snape and Voldemort.


Sorry for the long post. I'm in essay-writing mode for school right now...

[kala_way]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Felix has to have things we see in the magical world, including:
The ability to think and plan ahead more than a few seconds is the thing that seperates the human conciousness from most animals. Our ability for providence. There are few animals who can do this. Felix has to be able to plan ahead to lead a person to do something usually beyond normal capacity or odds.
One of the other things Felix needs is the ability to prioritize the user's goals. This also requires a consciousness of sorts to be able to take in information and sort it.
The third thing Felix needs to have is the ability to see the future, in a sense. They have to know when, how and what things are going to happen to place its user there.
The fourth thing felix has to have is the ability to influence others. It has to influence its user to get him or her in the right place at the right time and in the right position. It also has to influence others that need to be there to be there.

I think this is well spoken. Felix most definitely must plan and know the effects of actions before they are taken in order to prompt in the correct direction. The prioritizing of goals would also be important, but I don't think it's necessary. Slughorn's description made it sound as though most people took it and just went along for the ride without any outright "goals".
I concede the point about "influencing others" though, it's difficult to wrap your head around how someone completely separate from the situation could be influenced, but I suppose that's why it's magic (1 point to Fuel --and you too Kerry)

Originally Posted by Kerry

He seems to have almost too perfect timing sometimes. OF course, this could just be JKR's advancement of the plot and i'm just reading into it way too much...

I always imagined one of a Slytherin's characteristic traits would be good timing where Gryffindors bumble in haphazardly or get the joke 5 minutes late, you know? I think it could just be Snape's character and Jo's advancement of the plot as you say. Snape has made it his business to keep track of things that could adversely effect him, and so he knows where Harry and Draco are, he knows that Peter would try to eavesdrop, he knows that a calm phrase here or there can put Flitwick or Hermione off his track.

Louis Pasteur said "Chance favours the prepared mind." I think Snape is the supreme example of this.

[tuer_lisse]

Snape is not abusing Felix. Jo cannot put something so closely related to drug abuse into her books. The critics would have an uproar. She would be getting lawsuits left and right. It is not a wise business decision at all to have her have Snape be abusing Felix Felicious.

[kierkegaard]

A good Slytherin doesn't need a potion, but is naturally well-thought-out and cunning. I'm also not entirely convinced that Snape is lucky enough to be using Felix Felicis. Everything he does seems to be planned to the hilt in advance--even his speaking. I would say, no, he is not abusing any potions (other than the one for headache relief ).

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by kala_way

I concede the point about "influencing others" though, it's difficult to wrap your head around how someone completely separate from the situation could be influenced, but I suppose that's why it's magic (1 point to Fuel --and you too Kerry)

Aww... To quote a great man: "I haven't blushed this much since Madam Pomphrey told me she liked my new earmuffs."

Originally Posted by kala_way

I always imagined one of a Slytherin's characteristic traits would be good timing where Gryffindors bumble in haphazardly or get the joke 5 minutes late, you know? I think it could just be Snape's character and Jo's advancement of the plot as you say. Snape has made it his business to keep track of things that could adversely effect him, and so he knows where Harry and Draco are, he knows that Peter would try to eavesdrop, he knows that a calm phrase here or there can put Flitwick or Hermione off his track.

Louis Pasteur said "Chance favours the prepared mind." I think Snape is the supreme example of this.

What I always had in mind was that Slytherins would do was get power in any way possible while still apearing strong. They are the ones to find an excuse to get out of the battle and still look brave. Maybe it's just me.

[kala_way]

Originally Posted by Kerry

What I always had in mind was that Slytherins would do was get power in any way possible whil still apearing strong. They are the ones to find an excuse to get out of the battle and still lok brave. Maybe it's just me.

This gives me a picture in my mind of Snape as Monsieur Thénardier singing Dog Eats Dog in Les Mis I don't know why, though Thénardier would definitely be a Slytherin.

I dunno, I agree that the Slytherin motto is likely "Live to fight another day", but I think it's almost too simplistic to think of them just as the power mongers. I guess I associate them with the water element like Jo once indicated. Water is one of the strongest forces of nature, but it is often a quiet force--shaping events, molding immovable forces. Here's a link about the water sign: Elements. But, it also supports the Felix theory as it says that the "water element" tends to be more likely to become addicted to drugs hmm...

Hunger for power definitely, but being brave--I don't know that that is a primary goal for a Slytherin. Yes, I know Snape screaches "Don't call me a coward" but I think that's a knee jerk reaction from him--he is being/has been extraordinarily brave and now James Potter's son is calling him a coward, you know. I think reputation (appearing strong as you say, 'saving face') is most important to the Slytherin (pure-blood, Draco afraid to fail, Lucius' ministry involvement, Snape wanting the Order of Merlin in POA and his shame at humiliation in 'Worst Memory'). If bravery was a primary goal, Draco wouldn't be being a drama queen after the Buckbeak incident and every Quidditch game .

[Kerry]

That's what I meant. The Slytherins would find a nice, cozy hidy-hole to hide in in a battle, but only if it ment that they didn't look cowardly doing it.

[Fuelpagan]

Sorry for the long delay, work has been a bear the last few days.

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

Snape has a habit of turning up at inconvenient times.

Yes he does. And I would put it in the catagory of only being plot movement had there not been little things that seem to mirror what occurred to people we know were using felix. Like the timing issue of Snape intercepting the patronus meant for Hagrid and Hagrid being only a couple minutes late. JKR could have just had Tonks sending a message to the castle which Snape received and never involved Hagrid.

But if you consider Snape needing Harry to know about changing Patronuses, then it explains a lot about the train trip. The opportunity for Harry sneak into Draco's cabin. The chance banging of the suitcase on Harry's head confirming Draco's suspicion that someone was on the luggage rack. Draco freezing Harry and leaving him on the train. The chance of Tonks finding Harry under the invisibility cloak. And Tonks' patronus being intercepted by Snape. All these events could be the work of Felix to allow Snape the opportunity to mention Tonk's new patronus in front of Harry.

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

We haven't seen too many of them. JK Rowling said that she can't reveal Snape's patronus because it would give us too much information, or something like that. I can't think of too many patronuses that we know about besides Harry's, Lupin's and Tonks. I'm not sure where this theory is going.

We and Harry know about Dumbledore's patronus being a pheonix from GoF. Consider Snape may need to impersonate Dumbledore to guide Harry in eliminating Voldemort. In order to claim Dumbledore faked his death, Snape would need to remain hidden while impersonating Dumbledore. The secure communication the patronus provides would be needed in order to guide Harry. But Snape can't duplicate Dumbledore's pheonix patronus. Thus the necessity for Harry to know about someone's patronus changing, so when Dumbledore's patronus is different, Harry is less likely to question it.

Originally Posted by LexiBlack

You do have a point. I suppose we will find out in a few months. I am curious though... do you have any ideas as to what this big plan is?

Well, any big plan requires many subplans. Like building a house being the big plan, you need a subplans for plumbing and electrical.

I think the big plan is Snape wants to replace Voldemort and be recognized by all as the Half-Blood Prince. The subplans which Felix fits in is: 1) getting the Death Eaters to trust him. 2) Killing Dumbledore. 3) Claim that Dumbledore faked his death and impersonate Dumbledore to make sure Harry eliminates Voldemort. 4) Take position as the new Dark Lord. 5) Eliminate Harry making sure to avoid whatever Harry did to eliminate Voldemort.

He may have had this plan before the Unbreakable Vow.

Originally Posted by LexiBlack

I just don't understand why patronuses changing would be something that Snape would need to tell Harry. I know you said something about impersonating a person. But if a patronsus can change then I don't understand how this is benefical to Harry.

It is benificial to Snape so he can still communicate with Harry using the security of the patronus while impersonating someone else. So when Harry sees a different patronus he will think only the persons patronus had changed and not be questioning whether an impersonation is occurring.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Fuelpagan

I think the big plan is Snape wants to replace Voldemort and be recognized by all as the Half-Blood Prince. The subplans which Felix fits in is: 1) getting the Death Eaters to trust him. 2) Killing Dumbledore. 3) Claim that Dumbledore faked his death and impersonate Dumbledore to make sure Harry eliminates Voldemort. 4) Take position as the new Dark Lord. 5) Eliminate Harry making sure to avoid whatever Harry did to eliminate Voldemort.

Okay, let's check this list:
1 - Death Eaters trust him - done
2. dead Dumbledore - done
3. an unnecessary step, since Harry will eliminate Voldemort regardless of what Snape does
4. take position as next Dark Lord - he can do this once Voldemort is vanquished, as long as he is still alive, that is
5. eliminate Harry - piece of cake - can definitely accomplish this - unless Harry becomes so good, as good a wizard as Dumbledore was, then it gets a little tricky

Okay, step 4 is the problem - the fly in the ointment. Snape is extremely vulnerable now. If he "pulls a Wormtail" and stays in hiding from the good guys in order to stay alive, he will lose the respect of the bad guys. Voldemort won't like a scaredy cat Death Eater. The good guys will be gunning for Snape. Snape has made his move. He is now on the bad guy side. He can only become the next Dark Lord if he becomes the best fighter of the bunch. He can not play the double role any longer.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

Okay, step 4 is the problem - the fly in the ointment. Snape is extremely vulnerable now. If he "pulls a Wormtail" and stays in hiding from the good guys in order to stay alive, he will lose the respect of the bad guys. Voldemort won't like a scaredy cat Death Eater. The good guys will be gunning for Snape. Snape has made his move. He is now on the bad guy side. He can only become the next Dark Lord if he becomes the best fighter of the bunch. He can not play the double role any longer.

He has already proven himself as the best by facing Dumbledore and killing him on the tower in front of witnesses. Something Voldemort had never been able to do. He doesn't have to go fighting the battle with everyone else. Snape only needs to take on the top wizards like Dumbledore and Harry to prove himself.

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

3. an unnecessary step, since Harry will eliminate Voldemort regardless of what Snape does

I agree, but I bet Snape wouldn't. The speech in flight of the prince shows us that Snape thinks Harry has a long way to go before he is ready for Voldemort. I doubt Snape is going to just sit back and hope Harry doesn't screw up. So impersonating someone Harry trusts and will listen to may be very necessary in Snape's mind.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by Fuelpagan

I agree, but I bet Snape wouldn't. The speech in flight of the prince shows us that Snape thinks Harry has a long way to go before he is ready for Voldemort. I doubt Snape is going to just sit back and hope Harry doesn't screw up. So impersonating someone Harry trusts and will listen to may be very necessary in Snape's mind.

So, does that mean that the reason that Snape wants to impersonate Dumbledore is so that he can teach Harry to be a better fighter?

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

So, does that mean that the reason that Snape wants to impersonate Dumbledore is so that he can teach Harry to be a better fighter?

Impersonating Dumbledore does several things for Snape.
1) Clears Snape's name making it appear he help Dumbledore fake his death.
2) Actually teach Harry Occlumency now and how to master non-verbal spells.
3) Identify Harry's strengths and weaknesses for his knowledge if he ever has to fight Harry.
4) Foil any paths Harry might be tempted to use which would interfere with Snape's personal agenda.

Yes, He has to teach Harry some skills to fight Voldemort. But it also puts him in position where he can have some influence on how things happen. Which is the position Snape is familiar with as the death of Sirius demonstrated. I would love to continue this discussion...any idea what thread may be more appropriate?

[Everhope]

Snape may have killed Dumbledore, but I hardly think he was expecting it. Even till the last moment, Dumbledore trusted him. I hardly think he is the best for killing him at that point in time.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by Everhope

Snape may have killed Dumbledore, but I hardly think he was expecting it. Even till the last moment, Dumbledore trusted him. I hardly think he is the best for killing him at that point in time.

It is the appearance of being powerful by killing Dumbledore which I believe puts Snape in position to replace Voldemort after Harry defeats him. I was only illustrating how Snape doesn't need to become a super fighter since he has already accomplished, with killing Dumbledore, what everyone thought was impossible. Thus giving Snape instant respect within the dark wizarding community.

[Kerry]

Hmm... Not sure I agree, but I know Snape's role hasn't been expanded upon fully. He's going to become ofne of the major players in the seventh book. JKR has built him into so much more than Harry's number two nemisis at school. He has a "higher calling" I think. Just what that is remains to be seen.