Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by SeverusLovesUs

Also if Snape is using Felix, he is probably not abusing* it. Abusing implies selfishness. Snape is just in very dangerous situations-so dangerous that even he needs a little help.

I'm not trying to suggest Snape is using(abusing) Felix without cause or reason. I just think that after the Christmas party where Draco refused help from Snape. Snape has only luck to make sure Draco doesn't get caught, thus making the UV kill Snape.

Could Draco's refusal of help have pushed Snape from the casual Felix user, to an abuser?

[jordmundt6]

Abusing might not be selfishness, it could be that he's just leaning too often or too firmly on a reliable crutch. However, frankly he doesn't strike me as the type to use Felix AT ALL much less become addicted to it. I'm curious as to where exactly people think they're getting evidence--there isn't a moment in the books where Snape seems disproportionately overconfident, and his very existence means he has to take untenable risks whether he wants to or not.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Abusing might not be selfishness, it could be that he's just leaning too often or too firmly on a reliable crutch. However, frankly he doesn't strike me as the type to use Felix AT ALL much less become addicted to it. I'm curious as to where exactly people think they're getting evidence--there isn't a moment in the books where Snape seems disproportionately overconfident, and his very existence means he has to take untenable risks whether he wants to or not.

The evidence is in post number 1 and in the editorial I posted. The link to it is also in post number one.

You don't think Snape was overconfident in fighting Harry that he failed to notice Buckbeak? That he sees Harry as a useless wizard, where the likes of Dumbledore keep claiming Harry has unusual strength and power. Enough to take on Voldemort.

[jordmundt6]

Failed to notice Buckbeak--um, what? Are we talking about the battle in HBP? I believe that Snape's opinion of Harry is not a reflection of his own overconfidence (fed by Felix Felicis or not) but of his prejudice against James Potter--a gifted wizard who, in spite of those gifts had to resort to bullying to get the better of Snape and did so on several occasions. I believe the evidence is pretty clear that all Snape can see when he looks at Harry is James--he never sees Lily's eyes looking back at him. As such, he judges Harry by the same measuring stick and his bitterness over his past experience with James colors his opinion of Harry. Also, Harry has done little in Snape's presence to dispel this impression. Again, however, this is Snape's past experience and opinions of James talking--if he ever really saw Lily in Harry, I believe that he would be forced to change his opinion of young Mr. Potter.

Also, I looked at some of that "evidence."

Snape's timing has always been impeccable (from HIS perspective) and impeccably awful (from Harry's perspective)--for instance, in SS when Harry is trying to find Dumbledore and warn him about the impending theft of the Socerer's Stone--and later in the same incident when Hermione is tailing Snape on Harry's orders, he smells it out and frustrates them with ease.

In CoS--Snape is there to greet Harry and Ron after the flying Ford Anglia escapade (there were Prophet reports).

To a great extent, Snape seems to make his own luck--he prepares, he thinks well on his feet, and he's exceptionally gifted.

As for Harry not being able to hit Snape with a curse while chasing him--I get the sense that the misses that Ginny's talking about were very near misses, as in "Holy cow, how did they avoid that!," while Harry's curse at Snape's back went waay off course because he was so filled up with rage and grief that he couldn't control himself enough to aim well. We've seen that happen to Harry before--remember the duel he had with Bellatrix where he only struck her once and didn't get close again? Same thing. The thing with Tonks' message to Hagrid may be suspicious, but it's another example of Snape's sense of timing, so unless he's been taking it for years, and I mean at least six years, I don't think this theory holds up.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Failed to notice Buckbeak--um, what? Are we talking about the battle in HBP?

Yes. The battle at the end where, dispite being able cast some spectacular hits while on the run against other Death Eaters, Harry took aim and missed Snape. Just as Ginny described how spells just seem to miss her.

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

I believe that Snape's opinion of Harry is not a reflection of his own overconfidence (fed by Felix Felicis or not) but of his prejudice against James Potter--a gifted wizard who, in spite of those gifts had to resort to bullying to get the better of Snape and did so on several occasions. I believe the evidence is pretty clear that all Snape can see when he looks at Harry is James--he never sees Lily's eyes looking back at him. As such, he judges Harry by the same measuring stick and his bitterness over his past experience with James colors his opinion of Harry. Also, Harry has done little in Snape's presence to dispel this impression. Again, however, this is Snape's past experience and opinions of James talking--if he ever really saw Lily in Harry, I believe that he would be forced to change his opinion of young Mr. Potter.

I think Lily has nothing to do with as far as Snape is concerned. I agree Snape is prejudice against Harry because of James. But he sure seemed overconfident against Harry during the battle at the end of HBP, given Harry was able to knock him back with a shield spell earlier in the book.

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by jordmunt6

I believe the evidence is pretty clear that all Snape can see when he looks at Harry is James--he never sees Lily's eyes looking back at him.

Does Snape hate Harry because he's James' son, or because he's Lily's son?

We know that Snape had something for Lily, the only one that could keep up with him in potions. When she married James--and had a child with him--he must have been devestated. There was no chance that she didn't really love James, no chance for him. It's fair to assume he was bitter. This bitterness must have flowed over to Harry. After all, he was the constant reminder that in the end, James won.

Now, when Snape looked at Harry, he must have seen some of Lily. However, blocking the painful memories of her was probably better for him. In some deep part of him, Snape is wondering how Harry would behave, if he would be like Lily or if he would be like James. But the hatred won out. He just focused on the hatred he felt against James for the teasing and marrying Lily.


Yes, so Snape sees some of Lily in Harry, but mostly James. However, he uses this image to disregard much of what Harry does, using the excuse that James never came to much more than a pretty-boy. This in itself is dangerous, as Harry has the bravery of his father and the kindness of his mother. Snape is making overconfident assumptions that because James lost his own life in the end, so will Harry. An overconfidence that may indicate something more.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by Kerry

We know that Snape had something for Lily,

All we have is speculation based on the fact Voldemort offered to spare Lily's life. Some think it was because of Snape's feelings, I on the other hand think it was because of Peter Pettigrews feelings for Lily.

If Snape wanted Lily, he could have whipped up a love potion or used Felix to try to win her over. Or at least hurt James in the process.

[Kerry]

The evidence to me is fairly clear. Why would Voldemort offer Lily's life to Snape if there was nothing there?

Snape, even though he is dirty and not above cheap moves, would not whip up a love potion, I think. That kind of love is not what I see him as wanting. He seems that last person in the world to want some girl drooling all over him like a puppy dog. (Just like Snape in a dress--it doesn't work) Anyway, that kind of love is fake. Sure, he could tell himself that it's real, but he knows the truth himself.

He could have used Felix to give him the shove he needed, but as you stated earlier, Fuelpagan, Felix can't make people go against their natures. Lily obviously liked James--or at least didn't like Snape--so Felix culdn't do anything about it. Love takes time to blossom, so to be succesful in using Felix, would have to use it repetedly to charm Lily. This would lead to those nasty side-effects that I don't think he had conqured when he was still at school, despite being very adept at potions.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by Kerry

The evidence to me is fairly clear. Why would Voldemort offer Lily's life to Snape if there was nothing there?

There is no evidence Voldemort offered Lily's life to Snape at all. All we know is Voldemort gave Lily a chance to live for some reason. Peter is a much more likely candidate given he was the secret keeper. If Peter was resisting telling Voldemort the secret location because of Lily, Voldemort would make a deal to spare her if she would willingly step aside.

Voldemort would only do such a thing if he benefited from sparing Lily. Getting Wormtail to spill the beans would be a benefit. I see nothing in canon Snape could offer Voldemort in order to spare Lily's life.

That's just my opinion. Let's get back to Felix shall we.

Originally Posted by Kerry

He could have used Felix to give him the shove he needed, but as you stated earlier, Fuelpagan, Felix can't make people go against their natures. Lily obviously liked James--or at least didn't like Snape--so Felix culdn't do anything about it. Love takes time to blossom, so to be succesful in using Felix, would have to use it repetedly to charm Lily. This would lead to those nasty side-effects that I don't think he had conqured when he was still at school, despite being very adept at potions.

You are absolutely correct. Felix couldn't make Lily like Snape. But Snape could have used Felix to at least break James and Lily apart.

[jordmundt6]

Severus wouldn't WANT to pull a Merope move. He wouldn't WANT to force Lily to like him--or love him. It's beneath him--do you remember his reaction when Lockhart mentioned asking him (Snape) for Valentine's instruction in brewing love potions? He looked as if the first person to ask him for such help "would be force-fed poison." You're assuming--rather dangerously, that most of Severus' timing and character attributes are due not to his own intelligence or talent but to his decision to overuse a very complicated and rare potion--basically from the time he was 16.

There's evidence that Snape and Lily had an amicable relationship even leaving aside Voldemort's token offer to spare Lily. Here, I'm referring to Snape's refusal to ever lump Lily in with James. He will insult James for his bullying, his weakness, his pride, his foolishness, etc., etc., ad nauseum--but he has NOT badmouthed Lily to Harry. Not once--in fact, the only time we even know of him insulting Lily publicly was long before Harry was born, and apparently, her reaction stung him enough that he stopped caring in that moment about James and Sirius' bullying. That's not to say he forgot about it, but Lily washing her hands of him hurt him enough that he chose not to fight back when James sought to extract an apology from him.

Just as importantly, we know that Lily's specialty wasn't Potions, but her learning curve and behavior in Slughorn's class were just about exactly like Harry's. The only way that could happen is if Severus shared his notes with her--tutored her or took her on as a partner for some reason. This working relationship indicates a friendship--also, it's entirely possible that Snape spent holiday time in the Evans household--that he was the "awful boy" to whom Petunia referred when she regurgitated the factoids about dementors.

Also, in PoA when Snape is ranting about the sweetness of revenge and Harry "thanking [him] on bended knee" there's an interesting and revealing line. We learn that James was "too proud to believe that he might have been mistaken in Black"--a statement that sounds like Severus personally warned James not to use Sirius as Secret Keeper--quite unusual considering their history--and, ultimately, worse than fruitless.

About Harry missing Snape with that curse--there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for that. Prior to the showdown with Snape, Harry was working mostly off adrenaline, but facing him, all that rage and grief boiled over and he just couldn't make himself aim properly. We saw that happen with Bellatrix in OotP, so there's precedent for it. I also invite you to consider that this was a wild miss, not something that came unbelievably close to Snape only to swerve at the last instant--the sort of occurrence that matches Ginny's description of the DA's Felix Felicis luck in the duel.

As for Snape giving Hermione and Luna the slip--he's a practiced operative and it seems he was in complete control of the situation. And if he were a loyal Death Eater relying on Felix Felicis to smooth his way, his course of action doesn't make sense. We all know that he disdains Harry and has minimal respect for his abilities. Why wouldn't a loyal Death Eater who knows that Harry is his master's greatest enemy (or is at least perceived that way) take the golden opportunity to eliminate (as in kill) Potter's most talented and trusted remaining ally. Furthermore, why not kill Flitwick, the most powerful and dangerous staff member apart from Dumbledore, himself. He went out of his way to spare these two crucial people.

And to answer Kerry's first question--Snape hates Harry because he is James' son and all Snape can see when he looks at Harry is James. He sees Harry as a carbon-copy of James and has told him so on a number of occasions (in none of these instances did it appear that Snape lied about his assessment of Harry, even if he lied about other things).

[Moriath]

Please refrain from discussing Lily/Snape in any form outside of the Triumvirate threads in Legilimency Studies. Due to serious problems in the past the topic is taboo for the time being. Thanks.

[Dazza]

Well, this all seems interesting, the FF thing.

Now I look back it does seem like Snape did use it, and as a potions master maybe change it?

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

You're assuming--rather dangerously, that most of Severus' timing and character attributes are due not to his own intelligence or talent but to his decision to overuse a very complicated and rare potion--basically from the time he was 16.

The only thing I am assuming is what JKR has provided...that a Slytherin will do anything to achieve their ends.

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

About Harry missing Snape with that curse--there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for that. Prior to the showdown with Snape, Harry was working mostly off adrenaline, but facing him, all that rage and grief boiled over and he just couldn't make himself aim properly. We saw that happen with Bellatrix in OotP, so there's precedent for it. I also invite you to consider that this was a wild miss, not something that came unbelievably close to Snape only to swerve at the last instant--the sort of occurrence that matches Ginny's description of the DA's Felix Felicis luck in the duel.

HPB p602 US Hardback Harry tore passed Hagrid and his opponent, took aim at Snape's back and yelled, "Stupefy!" He missed; the jet of red light soared past Snape's head;

It wasn't a "wild miss." It did come unbelievably close to Snape. It zoomed by Snape's head. I don't recall Ginny saying any of the spells swerved away, she simply said they "just missed."

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

As for Snape giving Hermione and Luna the slip--he's a practiced operative and it seems he was in complete control of the situation. And if he were a loyal Death Eater relying on Felix Felicis to smooth his way, his course of action doesn't make sense. We all know that he disdains Harry and has minimal respect for his abilities. Why wouldn't a loyal Death Eater who knows that Harry is his master's greatest enemy (or is at least perceived that way) take the golden opportunity to eliminate (as in kill) Potter's most talented and trusted remaining ally. Furthermore, why not kill Flitwick, the most powerful and dangerous staff member apart from Dumbledore, himself. He went out of his way to spare these two crucial people.

You are forgeting that we know Hermione was using Felix on this night. Also, there were not supposed to be any witnesses on the tower besides Death Eaters. At this point Snape doesn't know for sure if Harry is up on the tower. To kill anyone prior to Dumbledore would put him firmly on the wanted list. If Harry hadn't witnessed the event, Snape could have claimed someone else killed Dumbledore and remained a spy at Hogwarts.

[cocobean]

Originally Posted by emmasgoodlookin

Mind Boggling

Agreed..

this just seems to be a whole lot of over analysing.

Although, the point you bring up for "what happens if both sides take felix" is VERY interesting.

[LunaBreeders]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

but it's another example of Snape's sense of timing, so unless he's been taking it for years, and I mean at least six years, I don't think this theory holds up.

I agree with you, if he should use felix everytime he gets lucky, then he would have to be using it for years.. and as Slughorn tells his students, this potion can't be used all the time, if it's used like that, the person gets crazy and all that side effects.. And Snape is a potion master, so he is well aware of this, besides the fact that he doesn't seem crazy or affected at all

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by cocobean

Agreed..

this just seems to be a whole lot of over analysing.

Although, the point you bring up for "what happens if both sides take felix" is VERY interesting.

It's something to pass the time until DH comes out. Only 39 more days!!!!
Then we can come back and see whether I am over analyzing or not.

Originally Posted by LunaBreeders

I agree with you, if he should use felix everytime he gets lucky, then he would have to be using it for years.. and as Slughorn tells his students, this potion can't be used all the time, if it's used like that, the person gets crazy and all that side effects.. And Snape is a potion master, so he is well aware of this, besides the fact that he doesn't seem crazy or affected at all

Who's to say he hasn't been using it for at least the last 6 years. I don't think he's been abusing it until possibly near the end of HBP. But we know Snape has worked out how to deal with problems of giddyness. The heavily modified euphoria potion demonstrates that for us.

[mxchape04]

Snape may be using Felix on occasion, but i don't think that he has overdosed on the potion. The reason I don't believe that he is on the potion is that he never seems to be in a good mood.

The overdose symptoms include giddyness, and Snape is definitely not giddy, meaning he has not overdosed. His one symptom of Overconfidence can be explained by the fact that he has a giant ego and just thinks that he is great (even if nobody else agrees).

[Kerry]

As it has been stated by Fuelpagan many times, his theory suggests taht Snpae is using his skill at potions to curb the effects of Felix, just like he modified the Euphoria potion to get rid of side effects.

[Fuelpagan]

Originally Posted by Kerry

As it has been stated by Fuelpagan many times, his theory suggests taht Snape is using his skill at potions to curb the effects of Felix, just like he modified the Euphoria potion to get rid of side effects.

Thanks Kerry!

It is easy to overlook the modified Euphoria potion being Snape's modifications to fix giddyness. As I think JKR intended us to overlook them, in order to keep her clues hidden in the background.

[troryfan]

it would certainly be easy for him to aquire it.
But i think there might be some bad side effects not mentioned that could cause trouble if it is used to often.
Otherwise everyone would be using it all the time.

Jo