Spinner's End #20 - Two For One

[navygreen]

Discussion for Spinner's End #20 - Two For One by Lady Lupin.

[ironbrick52]

Its wondefully written by my favourite author.
Very thought provoking and interesting

BEANIE DUDE

A long editorial but, as usual, well planned and written. As I have previously said, I think you are the best writer of Harry Potter editorials I have read so far.

Although I disagree with your assertion that that Harry will live (I think he must die to defeat Voldemort) I am largely in agreement with the rest of the editorial regarding who will live and who will die.

My own opinion is that Draco is the one who will now live and that Snape is one of those who will now die. My guess as to the other one who will now die is a person you don't mention in your editorial, Professor Trelawney. She made the prophesy that started the whole saga and perhaps she is the one who will die in the end.

[Krinkelmort]

This was an interesting editorial (as usual). One slight thing I don't agree with, is Neville becoming the new Herboloyteacher. Because that would mean he becomes head of Hufflepuff house. But Neville is a Gryffindor, so that doesn't really fit.

But as for the rest I agreed with everything. I also think it is unlikely that Harry will die for the same reasons you told. And yes I think Hagrid has a big change of dying in book 7, but he was planned al along. I think the leader of the giants (forgot the name) will kill Hagrid, and then Grawp will take revenge.

I believe that all the Marauders will die somehow protecting Harry (James and Sirius died protecting Harry), and I also believe that Snape will die, as will Bellatrix. All the 'murderers' in the books will die.

[Emerald63]

Another noteworthy effort, Lady Lupin. I agree with some of your guesses and disagree with others, but who of us can second guess the likes of Jo Rowling?

There was only one small thing I noted that was in error: you stated that Percy Weasley's name was Percival. However, in "The Hearing" in OotP, Fudge is reading out the full names of those involved with the official proceedings and names the court clerk as "Percy Ignatius Weasley." It seems to me that, if his given name were Percival, it would have been stated as such. I think the more important name, and one that may indeed reflect Jo's much discussed religious beliefs, is Ignatius.

Saint Ignatius of Loyala was the founder and first leader of the Catholic order commonly known as the Jesuits. He was also an instrumental party in forming and promoting the Counter-Reformation to Martin Luther's movement of protest against the Church of Rome. I believe JKR is a member of the Church of Scotland, a Protestant entity. The Jesuits have many supporters but just as many detractors. It does seem, though, that Percy's role as "going over to the Ministry" would indicate a "counter-reformation" sort of role for him, one of maintaining the status quo rather than supporting change.

That's not to say "Percy" might not be implying Percival-like characteristics, yet to be displayed, so my own assessment may be for naught. But I do love the fact that "Percy" is British slang for the type of disagreeable person we in the States would call by one of the nicknames for Richard. How utterly appropriate!

But otherwise, a thoughtful read - as always.

Originally Posted by Krinkelmort

One slight thing I don't agree with, is Neville becoming the new Herboloyteacher. Because that would mean he becomes head of Hufflepuff house. But Neville is a Gryffindor, so that doesn't really fit.

I don't think that there's any affiliation between Herbology and Hufflepuff. I think it just so happens that the current Hufflepuff head is also the Herbology teacher. Such an affiliation would mean that the Head of Gryffindor must always be a Transfiguration teacher, the head of Ravenclaw always a Charms teacher, and the head of Slytherin always a Potions teacher. While I admit that, so far, the known heads of Gryffindor and Slytherin have matched those profiles, I don't think it's a set rule. It may have meaning to the events that occur in the books that the associations are there, but I don't believe they're historically mandated. Certainly, Neville being a Gryffindor would prove that, should he indeed become Herbology teacher at some point.

[embememu]

Interesting editorial. I usually get bored of the long ones half way through. I definitely hope that Neville will kill Bella. Neville is my favourite young character, so i hope he survives. As for one of the Weasley twins dying, I hadn't considered that possibility, but that would be awful for the surviving twin. I don't want lupin to die either. I think wormtail is a definite possibility, particularly as he owes harry his life, but i think that his death would have been planned a while ago.

[madelynn]

Originally Posted by Emerald63

I don't think that there's any affiliation between Herbology and Hufflepuff. I think it just so happens that the current Hufflepuff head is also the Herbology teacher. Such an affiliation would mean that the Head of Gryffindor must always be a Transfiguration teacher, the head of Ravenclaw always a Charms teacher, and the head of Slytherin always a Potions teacher. While I admit that, so far, the known heads of Gryffindor and Slytherin have matched those profiles, I don't think it's a set rule. It may have meaning to the events that occur in the books that the associations are there, but I don't believe they're historically mandated. Certainly, Neville being a Gryffindor would prove that, should he indeed become Herbology teacher at some point.

Exactly. Plus at the end of HBP we get some indication of Hagrid filling the Gryffindor's head position, as McGonagall is now the Headmistriss of Hogwarts. And Snape was still head of Slytherin the whole year he taught DADA.
Krinklemorf is right that if Sprout dies or retires or something we will need a new head of Hufflepuff. This can probably be accomplished very easily, so I see no reason to worry about it.

[Hermy_007]

Great editorial! I definitely believe that Wormtail has to die. He has that debt to pay. Snape...not too sure, but I do want him to live.I do agree with you about Draco's possible redemption. And yes, Harry HAS to live! And I do hope that Neville , Lupin and Hagrid survive, but as you said, Hagrid does seem like a possibility. Let's just wait for Book 7 and see what JK has in store for us.

[mdb09]

I loved this editorial!
I agree with a lot of your guesses.
I think though, that if Lupin dies, Peter must die first. And maybe Snape too. I would hate to see evil outlast good.
I never thought about Fred and George separating!!! I would my eyes out! If one of them died, it would be way worse than them both dying. Kind of like if Sirius had died locked in his house instead of fighting. I could also see Bill or Charlie dying. We don't have as strong an attachment, but it would hit the Weasley family incredibly hard.
I don't know about Neville. I've always suspected he's going to be come a much better wizard with his new wand, but I was surprised to not hear about it throughout HBP. I guess maybe it was a combination of him getting used to it and us not seeing him as much. I could see Luna going before Neville. But I can't see Luna dying. I just keep picturing this giant battle going on and her just walking through, bemused. Maybe casting a spell here, unknowingly dodging several there...I don't know how big a part she played in HBP, I don't remember. I can see Neville taking Bella on, but I don't see him conquering her on his own. Maybe if he and Harry took her on to avenge the Longbottoms' and Sirius' deaths then it would be possible.
I think Peter has to die because it's only fair. He can't be the last surviving Marauder, if Lupin dies. I think he will be killed by Voldemort though. Maybe he'll do something incredibly stupid like try to help Harry or something.
Draco probably has to die/get sent to Mungo's until Voldemort's gone. I really like him now, ever since HBP. But I don't see how he can totally become good or ever help the Order. I could see him thinking Voldemort was a bit extreme, but I can't see him making a 360. I think there's a difference in realizing the err of your ways and changing your entire self.
I, personally, think Snape has to die, because if he doesn't I'll be very very very angry. The man has jerked us along for so long that I think he deserves to die a very slow death, or even a fast one after realizing that what he did was wrong. Even if you believe Snape is good, I think Voldemort will figure that out soon enough and end it.

[Dania]

Wonderful editorial! It's so very hard to predict who will live and who will die in the final book. Oh, I'll cry my eyes out, if Lupin, Tonks, Luna or one or both of the Weasley twins die! Not them! Please, Mrs. Rowling!

Or Harry, Ron, Hermione or Ginny, of course, but I don't really believe that they'll die. I don't think Neville's going to die either, he certainly deserves to live happily ever after, his life has been just as tragic as Harry's. I also don't want Hagrid to die, but I think that he's going to.

I'm also afraid that one of the Weasleys won't make it. As you said in the editorial, they have their numbers against them. As I said, I don't think Ginny or Ron are going to die, and Bill and Arthur have already been badly hurt, so I think they're going to live too. It would be very cruel to kill Fleur and let Bill live, so I think she's going to live too. That leaves Molly, Charlie, Percy and the twins. Charlie's or especially Percy's death wouldn't affect the readers of the books too much, because we don't know them very well, or in Percy's case, don't like them, but it would affect the Weasley family a lot and maybe strengthen Ron's resolve and courage and make him a better help to Harry in the final confrontation with the bad guys.
Ron sounds very sure when he, to Molly's "They'll be murdered in their beds", answers "No, they won't." (or something to that effect, don't have my HBP book at the moment), so I hope the twins will survive. As for Molly, it would be extremely cruel of JKR to kill her off, leaving seven children without their mother, not to mention that Harry's already lost his parents and two father figures, it would be very cruel if he also lost the person who has been the closest thing to a mother he's ever had. So my guess for a loss in the Weasley family is Charlie or Percy - that's my hope too, I couldn't bear it if one of the others die (but I'm not entirely sure that JKR wouldn't be cruel enough to do it).

mdb09, I agree with what you're saying about the Marauders, but not about Snape. I'd really like him to survive, he's just such a wonderfully complex character. And I don't think JKR will kill off all the bad and/or "grey" characters of the books, after all Dumbledore makes it clear that evil can only be kept at bay, not completely erradicated.

[yappa1]

Hi Lady Lupin
Great editorial, but it gives Pettigrew a way out of his destiny. He killed all those muggles when he framed Sirius, he killed the spare, he was the one who brought back Voldemort,was a traitor to his friends,and he killed Frank in book one. He will only help Harry because he has to. He is in debt to Harry. I don't see any redeeming factors in Wormtail at all.
Killing just one of the twins is cruel but so is war,I wouldn't want to see it, since I think all the Weasley children will die except for Ron and Ginny. Molly may die but I think she will see her fears come true.
I can see Snape's death easily,he is good but Voldemort will kill him, but I also think that certain deatheaters are protecting horcruxes and Snape has one. Dumbledore didn't tell Snape whet he was looking for so Snape doesn't know what he has.
I also balieve that Greyback will Kill Tonks and Lupin will kill Greyback and will also die as a result.
Neville deserves to kill Bella and probably get the horcruxe she has for Harry,probably without knowing it.
I hope Harry lives but I'm not very sure.

[MustelaPutorius]

There is one major character that (as far as I am aware) has been left out of all the debates about who will be granted the reprieve and which two additional characters will die. This is most likely the case because he is a non-human character (and I don't mean Buckbeak or Firenze).

Dobby has been a major character since CoS and has been instrumental in helping (and occasionally harming) Harry in each of the five books since. I think Dobby is a likely candidate for either the character who got a reprieve or one of the two who got a last-minute death sentence. In keeping with the logic of Lady Lupin's (excellent) editorial, a late change in Dobby's fate would not make a major difference to the overall plot.

There are a few reasons why Dobby may be a likely candidate for death -- the juxtaposition between him and Kreacher being one. And I don't think Kreacher will die, because it would suit him too well to join his ancestors as wall mounts at Grimmauld Place. Dobby may die foiling a plot to sabotage Harry in the hunt for the horcruxes that is orchestrated by Bella working in cahoots with Kreacher.

Dobby also has a score to settle with the Malfoys and he may meet his end in overcoming one or more of them (Lucius if he's out of Azkaban and not killed by Voldemort as punishment, maybe Narcissa or indeed Draco).

Again, Dobby may be the character granted the reprieve. He is one of the few major characters whose death or survival would not impinge upon the main plot points too much. He is close to Harry and (some of) the readers.

A lot has been made of House Elves and their special, powerful brand of magic over the last three books. This cannot just have been a subplot that won't be brought to fruition or a convenient device to enable Harry to get tips and help along the way. I think Dobby (and probably Kreacher and maybe just Winky, too) still have a major role to play in Book 7.

I'm surprised Dobby has been so conspicuously absent from all the speculations about deaths and reprievals. He is, after all, a major character (much more major than some who have figured into the debate) and JKR only used the term "character" when discussing the deaths and the reprieve -- she never said "wizard", "witch" or "human".

~Mustela Putorius~

[Harry_Lives]

Originally Posted by Emerald63

Saint Ignatius of Loyala was the founder and first leader of the Catholic order commonly known as the Jesuits. He was also an instrumental party in forming and promoting the Counter-Reformation to Martin Luther's movement of protest against the Church of Rome. I believe JKR is a member of the Church of Scotland, a Protestant entity. The Jesuits have many supporters but just as many detractors. It does seem, though, that Percy's role as "going over to the Ministry" would indicate a "counter-reformation" sort of role for him, one of maintaining the status quo rather than supporting change.

I recently submitted this information about Ignatius to the Names Origins. I hope they add it. But I think the significant part of the parallel is that Ignatius was originally a cleric and then left and became a part of the court of a powerful goverment official in spain. He took part in a war and was injured and during his convalescence had a conversion experience. From that point he founded the Jesuits who's mandate is basically to serve the Pope in whatever way he needs them. This might mean that Percy will be injured during the war and will come out of it with a change of heart, reunite with his family, and perhaps go on to be of great service to the ministry. I definetly think it means he'll live.

I hadn't thought of the possibility of only one Weasley Twin surviving. That's a very disturbing thought but it has a ring of truth to it. That would be very emotional for Harry and everyone.

I think Wormtail will be redeemed and that he will definetly die. He will die in the act of redeeming himself.

Snape's death depends entirely on his loyalties. If he's truly evil then he will die. Harry will probably kill him. However, if he's essentially good then he will live. I personally believe that he is good and he will live.

[mdb09]

Dania, I didn't mean she would kill off all of the bad characters. I just mean that in the group of the Marauders, I'd hate to see Snape and Peter triumph over Remus, Sirius, and James, even if it is just metaphorically.
MustelaPutorius, good point. But I really hope Dobby doesn't die. He's so devoted, it'd be sad.

[missaggie]

awww that'd be really sad if dobby died! i hadn't even thought of that...

this was a great editorial!!! it made me consider a lot of new possibilities. i feel sort of out of the HP loop for some reason... i need to go do another re-read i think....

all this death talk is making me sad... i am going to cry my eyes out when this book comes out, i swear... and i really hope the weasley twins make it alright... that would tear me apart if one of them died.

[Tweak]

This was a really well written editorial. As you said, none of us can second guess the brilliant Jo; however, I have had a few thoughts on this supbject myself.


Although I don't want to even think about it, I too believe that Lupin and Tonks are slated for death. There have been many reasons listed by others here in this thread and they are all plausible. If the Golden Trio are to all survive, I think we have to see all the Marauders die. I will probably dance when I read of Wormtail's death but Remus' will hurt both Harry and me.

It would not surprise me to see the decimation of the Weasley clan. I don't think you'll see Ron die but everyone else is fair game. I can see a seriously reduced family at the end. As a parent, I can think of nothing worse for Arthur and Molly than having to bury their children. Although and I hate to say it, Molly has her favourites and Ron isn't one of them but I can see Ron and Bill being the only 2 left. I had considered one of the twins being a victim but have resolutely put that out of my head...sorry, I'm in denial, they both have to survive or not. On the other hand I can see some of the minor Weasleys dying and Molly, leaving behind a bereft Arthur. Either way, this war is going to be devastating on the Weasleys because they are too close to Harry and to the Order.

I worry about Hagrid, too. He "rescued" Harry from the chaos in Godric's Hollow, the abuse at the Dursley's and I fear, he'll come to the rescue one more time and give the ultimate sacrifice.

Voldemort will die. There is no way an end to the series can happen without his removal, although it wouldn't surprise me for Jo to hint at an individual who will be a future evil lord. I have been dithering about his lieutenants however. Actually, I can see Lucius being killed by Voldemort because of the botched mess at the Ministry (Voldemort doesn't deal well with failure and he wanted that prophesy) and would this not propel Draco towards the Light? The very thing he fought to prevent happens anyway. Talk about a life lesson.


Neville will survive and do so victoriously. That young man has shown consistent growth in the series. Wouldn't it be ironic if Snape is the individual who lends Neville a hand in Bella's defeat?!

And that brings me to Severus Snape, one of the most complex and compelling charcters in the book. Intellectually, I'm unsure about his alliegance. In my heart, I think he is a member of the Light and my reasons were in another thread. That being said, I don't believe he can survive. He has crossed that line when he killed the headmaster even though I believe he did so because of Dumbledore's orders. I know he has slithered out of other tight spots but I think this is it for our favourite bat of the dungeons.

This has taken me longer to write than I expected and I probably will come in and edit/add more. Lady Lupin, thank you for such a thought provoking editorial. I think it deserves a re-read.

[lilyp]

Excellent editorial, brilliantly reasoned. I've seen to mistake, though, that I'd like to point out.
1st. As emerald 63 said Percy's name is really Percy (though the origin of Percy is Percival).
2nd. You seem to assume that JKR changed her mind when writing the 7th book. She never said so. She said she changed the last chapter after it was written, in 1990. And in several other interviews she mentioned that in the first five years of her writing she was not only writing PS/SS, but also plotting the whole saga.
I think it's very likely that she made something similar to the way John Irving said he writes. He begins by the end of it. Of course I don't know if she's done exactly this backward writing, I even think she didn't. But I think that, if she has written her last chapter in 1990 (she said so to Richard & Judy), somehow she began by where she would like to arrive at the end and only after that she plotted the intermediary steps.
So I believe that those changes in the fates of characters can have been made when she was plotting the books, not when she was writing book seven. This would slightly change some of your conclusions.

[mo1]

Thank you, LadyLupin, for such a full of sense editorial !
I agree with pretty all you wrote, though with some little nuances.

First, about the 4 reasons you mentioned for the death of a major character. I think reason number 4 (“pierce the veil”) is only an example of reason number 2 (a twist where the proper ending is a character’s death). Indeed, if Percy is meant to help the Order this way, it must have been planned all along (hence the choice of his first name). But the outcome of this piece of action can have changed in him having to die or in him not needing to die after all.

About Ginny then, I don’t think any change involving her could be qualified as “slight”. In my opinion, Ginny is in the same category as Ron and Hermione. Even if it was not entirely obvious before HBP, Ginny was meant to be Harry’s ideal woman as soon as PS/SS, and her being dead or alive could change Harry’s whole future. Her dying could change it from doing a happy marriage and building a new family to having to cry his love and to overcome his worst ever grief with the help of his few remaining friends. And vice versa. I won’t call that a slight change. (Assuming that Harry would remain alive at the end of the seventh book, of course).

About Hagrid and the alchemic symbolism. If this symbolical Alchemical journey is a reality, and I suppose that most of us think it by now, then someone symbolical of that red step (‘Rubedo’?) has to die, whatever twists in the plot there could be. It could be Voldemort (after all his eyes are red), but I doubt it. It’s much more likely an other parental figure of Harry’s who is going to die in front of him. Hagrid is obviously the most likely : his first name is Rubeus, he is the one who took care of Harry immediately after his parents’ death, who reintroduced him into the magical world, the one Rita Skeeter called a substitute of a father to Harry in GoF and we have a huge death clue for him at the end if HBP (“not Hagrid … not Hagrid too…”, HBP 561) . But it could also be a big red hearing, and as long as it’s not written, we can’t be sure. So if Hagrid got a reprieve or die when he wasn’t mean to, that mean he must have exchanged his potential role with someone else who could also be or have been symbolical of the red step. The then most likely in my opinion are Molly Weasley, Arthur seeming safe for the reasons you so cleverly explained, and, less likely but not impossible, Lily Potter if Harry time-travel to the night his parents were killed. The one good news here being that it’s not very likely that Hagrid and Molly would die.

Anyway, even if all that is rubbish, I wouldn’t be surprise if at least two of the three characters we are wondering about made a pair in the meaning that one (or two) of them die instead of the one who was originally planned to die (the one who got a reprieve). This would suit well with Jo's "a price has to be paid". Hopefully, that mean the said characters should belong to the same kind and we won’t have something like Tonks and/or Lupin dying instead of Wormtail.

About the Weasley twins, I have the awful feeling that you may be right about one of them dying instead of the two. And I don’t know which would be worse: Fred dying and leaving George live without his leader twin, or George dying and leaving Fred living with the culpability and idea that his mischiefs and his recklessness may be a cause for his twin’s death. (Though I wouldn’t be surprised if this twist was planned from the beginning )

About Neville, finally, I don’t think that he will die for the mere reason that his purpose in the books is to show us what Harry’s life could have been if he had not been the chosen one. And it wouldn’t really suit the idea of a better and easier life if he were going to die when Harry may not.

Originally Posted by Krinkelmort

One slight thing I don't agree with, is Neville becoming the new Herboloyteacher. Because that would mean he becomes head of Hufflepuff house. But Neville is a Gryffindor, so that doesn't really fit.

Just one little add to what Emerald63 and madelynn already said. The different teacher jobs are not reserved to teachers from one house or another and are not related with the choice of the Head of House.
But there is a kind of relationship anyway, for certain kind of skills (associated with good abilities for some subjects) seem to appear more often with people having some kind of personality, and therefore those skills are more or less associated to one house. For example, a great number of Slytherins seem to be good at potions and mental arts (not to mention the dark arts). We can associate this with their ambition, their being cunning and ready to any mean to get what they want, and of course with the education that exists in the old pure-blood families. In the same way, we know several Gryffindors who were/are particularily good at transfiguration, and transfiguration being a particularly spectacular kind of magic, we can guess that it might be related to Gryffindors flaw (according of the other houses) to being show-offs. We can also see that caring of magical creatures involve a great deal of bravery (and even being a bit rash…) and this suit well to the Gryffindors. Though we don’t know it very well, Arithmancy, Astronomy, Ancient Runes, and advanced Charms (involving “immensely complex spells” such as the Fidelius Charm) must suit well to the clever book-addicted Ravenclaws. And since a great deal of patience and learning is needed to deal with magical plants, the Hufflepuff hard-workers are probably better at it than those of other houses.
But these are only tendencies, no rules. And it’s no surprise that Neville, who has several Hufflepuff qualities, could be so good at herbology and there is no reason he could not become a herbology teacher once Professor Sprout won’t teach it anymore.
(By the way, besides those mentioned in this editorial, there’s an other possibility for her being unable to keep on teaching : she could become headmistress if McGonagall is killed.)

Originally Posted by MustelaPutorius

I'm surprised Dobby has been so conspicuously absent from all the speculations about deaths and reprievals. He is, after all, a major character (much more major than some who have figured into the debate) and JKR only used the term "character" when discussing the deaths and the reprieve -- she never said "wizard", "witch" or "human".

You're right. Dobby is worth being considered.

[mdb09]

Another thing to add to what lilp said, the last chapter is an epilogue of sorts, right? So if she just changed what happens after Voldemort is defeated....Or is that definitely not what she meant?

[susanova]

Oh, Mustela you have an excellent point! It's so easy to only think of the human characters and not the 'others' in Jo's world.

After re-reading some other comments, does any have a thought on the final disposition of Rita Skeeter? She isn't exactly a full-time major character, but she isn't really minor either...