Underground Lake #37 - Where in the World is Wormtail?

[navygreen]

Discussion for The Underground Lake #37 - Where in the World is Wormtail? by Brandon Ford.

[Tince]

Great editorial. I agree with you that Wormtail's almost complete absence in the last two books seems like JK might be setting him up for something big in book 7.

[waggawaggawer]

Yes, that is one eye-opener of an essay. Wormtail's being at Spinners End all along should revise a lot of theories.

[Bowtruckle]

Nice to hear from you again Brandon. Seeing your latest installment made my day.

Yes we are definitely being 'set up' with the snippet of Wormtail. Perhaps if Brandon is correct and Wormtail is keeping tabs on Snape (opps, sorry - TFP) then perhaps he is not just doing this at Spinner's End. Maybe there has been some co-habitation happening at Hogwarts as well - perhaps we should keep our eyes peeled for rodents scurrying down hallways at Hogwarts in future...... at least Crookshanks will be on the lookout!

Also, I am sure this has been brought up time and time again but I still keep thinking of it when I think of Wormtail and where his loyalties lie. Peter was sorted into Gryffindor........why? The sorting hat is never wrong! Is it?

Of course we could argue that he was brave to attempt to pull off what he did when he carried out his little plan - he had alot at stake after all, but isn't courage considered a noble tendency - rather than a self serving one? So will there come a point when Wormtail will act more like a Griffindor than a Slytherin?

[Dania]

Interesting editorial, as always.

I disagree with one thing, though: Voldemort is a...what's the English word? Well, he thinks he's better, smarter, cleverer than anyone else. His life ambition is world dominance. So as for him not trusting Snape: I agree, he doesn't trust Snape, but only because he doesn't trust anyone. I believe that Voldemort cannot conceive of the idea that anyone can be a better occlumens than he is a legilimens. I think that Voldemort thinks he's the best wizard ever, and the best at occlumency/legilimency. He cannot imagine, I think, that Snape could be lying to him, whithout him being able to detect it. As we've seen in almost all the books, Voldemort, as most villains, has the tendency to overestimate his smartness and powers.

That still means that he doesn't trust Snape, as Voldemort is incapable of trusting others, but I don't think he distrusts Snape more that he distrust any of his Death Eaters. He probably wants Wormtail and Snape to keep an eye on each other, expecting each of them to tell him if the other does something Voldemort would disapprove of.

Otherwise, excellent editorial.

[Perman]

Originally Posted by Dania

Interesting editorial, as always.
I disagree with one thing, though: Voldemort is a...what the English word? Well, he thinks he's better, smarter, cleverer than anyone else. His life ambition is world dominance. So as for him not trusting Snape: I agree, he doesn't trust Snape, but only because he doesn't trust anyone. I believe that Voldemort cannot conceive of the idea that anyone can be a better occlumens than he is a legilimens. I think that Voldemort thinks he's the best wizard ever, and the best at occlumency/legilimency. He cannot imagine, I think, that Snape could be lying to him, whithout him being able to detect it. As we've seen in almost all the books, Voldemort, as most villains, has the tendency to overestimate his smartness and powers.

Yeah, that actually annoys me abit.. Super-Villains often seems to overestimate their own abilities and frequently fall because of that.

It's not fair or probable really.. I mean, if there ever was a supersmart Mr. Villain, why would being evil be analog with having no self-awareness? The supersmartness would take care of all analysis.

If I was a supersmart villain for instance, when I with no effort at all crush the main-hero to the ground, if he's laying there panting getting ready to show how powerful he really is in a desperate situation, I wouldn't just stand there laughing and explaining about the inescapable power-gap between the two while waiting for him to stand up, I would kill him right there, being evil and all.

I don't see the connection between evilness and arrogance and it's a bit annoying that authors of movies and books always gives the bad guy a disadvantage, by giving him no self-awareness at all while making the good guy insightful.

I can see the 'being willing to sacrifice yourself'-advantage going for the good guys, but I don't see any reason why they should be more realistic than a villain who's supposedly supersmart. Actually, the evil guys have the MAJOR 'I'm willing to do anything because I'm not an ethic'-advantage going for them which would prevent them from nobly explaining their plan when they believe they have won, because they don't care about other people and all and therefore shouldn't risk anything.
They should know this, don't they watch movies?!! If I ever become a supervillain I would dodge all these pitfalls!

[DnlW]

After reading this, it became clear to me that Snape is always being associated as being trusted by Voldemort. We see that this is not the case. The only one who ever trusted Snape is Dumbledore, so this is why I believe he is not on Voldemort side.

However, I believe that in order to convince everybody, he must die saving Harry's life. And that is what I believe is what's going to happen in the end for Snape.

[BublGumPnkHar]

Brandon - From your editorial:

Between the events at the ministry and Spinner's End, there has been some falling out between Bellatrix and Voldemort. How? Why? It could be that he blames her for the losing of the Prophecy. She had been charged with its safe return (though again this supports my theory that Voldemort didn't really need or care about the Prophecy, as she couldn't have been able to touch it to hand it to him). She failed in her mission, as did the rest of the Death Eaters.

This is the only place where I disagree with you. Once Harry pulled the prophecy from the shelf, he was able to hand it to Neville (who put it in his pocket) with no damage happening to Neville. If the DE/Bellatrix had been able to get their hands on it, they would have been able to hand it to Voldy-thing. But, of course, Harry wasn't going to let that happen.

I have told you several times that I really enjoy your editorials and that we usually agree. This is not a parting of the ways.

[hcnbedbugs]

Several people have been Voldemort's right hand, and things don't usually turn out well for them (Barty Crouch, Jr. lost his soul, Wormtail lost a hand, Bellatrix lost her self-respect - you know they're doing it... EWW!).

This part was so funny! I am at work and cracking up, the other people in the office probably think I am nuts!

Loved the editorial, and cant wait for the next installment. Please dont take too long.

[SusanBones]

I agree with most of your editorial. I was going to point out the fact that Bellatrix would have been able to touch the prophecy, since Neville was able to, but BublGumPnkHair beat me to it.

I like the comparison to Renault in Casablanca. Wormtail and Snape are both "riding the tide" trying to go the way that keeps them alive. Right now the flow is with Voldemort. But both these two characters will turn on Voldemort in the end. Wormtail will have to repay his life debt to Harry and Snape will redeem himself by saving Harry.

Voldemort doesn't trust them, but then he doesn't trust anyone.

[lurk]

I think Neville was able to touch the prophecy because it pertained to him as well as Harry when it was made. The orb at the MoM was just a record of the prophecy and wasn't affected by Voldy's choice to mark Harry, as evidenced by the (?) before Harry's name.

[notasquib2]

I especially agree with the fact that Pettigrew seems to have been assigned to keep track of Snape. I don't have the book nearby so I can't quote exactly, but I remember thinking, "Hmmmm," when TFP said that Pettigrew had "taken to listening at doors lately." That "taken to" and "lately" really jumped out at me as did TFP's next comment, "I don't know what he means by it." At the time I thought there were three possibilities. One was that Pettigrew had been assigned to spy on TFP. Another was that he was now lower on the totem pole since the other DEs had returned and he was resentful of being put on the need-to-know list, and was trying to get back in the loop. And the third was that he was helping to keep Snape safe by making sure Bella didn't attack him, which would seem to mean that Pettigrew and Snape are secretly working for the Order—highly unlikely, at least on Pettigrew's part, and even more so since Snape zapped him up the stairs. I am most inclined to think that Peter is a spy, as he always is. And remember, he was darn good at it the first time around, since he fooled Remus, Sirius, James, Lily, and even Dumbledore.

[Harry_Lives]

Interesting editorial.

I don't agree however that Snape is only out for himself, to survive. If he were he wouldn't have done some of the good things he has done. There is much more to him than that.

I also think it's just as likely that Snape is watching Wormtail or that they are both watching each other. After all, Voldemort must know about Wormtail's life debt and so has reason to trust him less than anyone else.

[luvtheheaven]

I really loved the editorial, but I can't imagine what Wormtail would be up to. I think placing Wormtail with Snape means that Voldemort trusts that Snape won't be having many houseguests, and that Snape will keep his eye on Wormtail at all times. Wormtail will also know much of what Snape's doing, but Wormtail's too much of a coward to risk making Snape mad but tattling on him to Voldemort. And Snape obviously knows how to be secretive.... If Snape doesn't want Wormtail to know what he's up to, he can find a way to keep it secret. I just think Voldemort's testing Snape - see just how much he can put up with before he cracks and does something like kill Dumbledore.

[justaHPfan]

Originally Posted by notasquib2

And remember, he was darn good at it the first time around, since he fooled Remus, Sirius, James, Lily, and even Dumbledore.

Yes, but he's already used the "don't pay attention to me, I'm too dumb to do anything" card. He doesn't have any others! He may have 1 or 2 things up his sleeve, but Peter's bluff has been called. Voldemort knows he's there because 1) he's fearful and 2) he has nowhere else to go. Snape knows it too. Plus, Peter could never lie to Voldemort so Snape could never align himself with Peter against Voldemort because Peter would blow their cover. Good point about the zapping up the stairs - it does seem that Snape enjoyed that and I think Snape is smart enough to know that Wormtail would report back to V, but I think it likely that the situation was put forth that Snape would be watching Wormtail. When Snape was at Hogwarts, I would imagine that Peter went back to V.

Originally Posted by lurk

I think Neville was able to touch the prophecy because it pertained to him as well as Harry when it was made.

This is interesting. But, I don't think that's the case. I think the protections are in place from removing it from the wall/shelf. After that, it's fair game. Although it would be wonderfully ironic, wouldn't it? Harry hands it to Lucius who then "suffers madness"!

Originally Posted by Perman

I mean, if there ever was a supersmart Mr. Villain, why would being evil be analog with having no self-awareness?

I think the idea here is that to go to that extreme of wickedness, you lose a certain sense of reality. Also, power corrupts. Each time Voldemort (insert any super-evil villain here) succeeds, he becomes more and more arrogant in his abilities. Truly evil dictators do reach a point where they believe they are supreme. However, the flip side is that they are incredibly paranoid that someone will be their undoing (hence Voldemort's rash move based on the prophecy). But in order to be that evil, one must suspend his/her conscience so that what bothers the not-evil person does not bother the evil one. Once you get there, your view of life is distorted. This is how super evils lose that self-awareness you're talking about.

[burns20002002]

Originally Posted by Perman

Yeah, that actually annoys me abit.. Super-Villains often seems to overestimate their own abilities and frequently fall because of that.

It's not fair or probable really.. I mean, if there ever was a supersmart Mr. Villain, why would being evil be analog with having no self-awareness? The supersmartness would take care of all analysis.

If I was a supersmart villain for instance, when I with no effort at all crush the main-hero to the ground, if he's laying there panting getting ready to show how powerful he really is in a desperate situation, I wouldn't just stand there laughing and explaining about the inescapable power-gap between the two while waiting for him to stand up, I would kill him right there, being evil and all.

I don't see the connection between evilness and arrogance and it's a bit annoying that authors of movies and books always gives the bad guy a disadvantage, by giving him no self-awareness at all while making the good guy insightful.

I can see the 'being willing to sacrifice yourself'-advantage going for the good guys, but I don't see any reason why they should be more realistic than a villain who's supposedly supersmart. Actually, the evil guys have the MAJOR 'I'm willing to do anything because I'm not an ethic'-advantage going for them which would prevent them from nobly explaining their plan when they believe they have won, because they don't care about other people and all and therefore shouldn't risk anything.
They should know this, don't they watch movies?!! If I ever become a supervillain I would dodge all these pitfalls!

Come on! It's not a fictional characteristic of villains, it's historical. Looking at all the villains in history; Saddam,Hitler, Stalin, Napolian,etc. They were all very arrogant and paranoid as well, which put them in a place bordering on delusional. As a previous responder stated, they form their own reality, where they are infallible.

[luvtheheaven]

Originally Posted by justaHPfan

I think the idea here is that to go to that extreme of wickedness, you lose a certain sense of reality. Also, power corrupts. Each time Voldemort (insert any super-evil villain here) succeeds, he becomes more and more arrogant in his abilities. Truly evil dictators do reach a point where they believe they are supreme. However, the flip side is that they are incredibly paranoid that someone will be their undoing (hence Voldemort's rash move based on the prophecy). But in order to be that evil, one must suspend his/her conscience so that what bothers the not-evil person does not bother the evil one. Once you get there, your view of life is distorted. This is how super evils lose that self-awareness you're talking about.

I love that explanation - it makes sense to me! I also think that if someone is willing to kill someone and knows they won't feel bad about it (or any other one of a number of horrific "evil" things), they already have to be arrogant enough to feel that all that matters in the world is themselves or their plan(s), and feel that they are smart enough to decide that the other person is insignificant....

Originally Posted by burns20002002

Come on! It's not a fictional characteristic of villains, it's historical. Looking at all the villains in history; Saddam,Hitler, Stalin, Napolian,etc. They were all very arrogant and paranoid as well, which put them in a place bordering on delusional. As a previous responder stated, they form their own reality, where they are infallible.

You're right too.

[The Obsesser]

I was about to make a correction, but justaHPfan beat me to it. Neville was able to touch the prophecy because it was off the shelf. To quote Dumbledore...

"And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of Mysteries before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all along - that the prophecies held in the Ministry of Magic are heavily protected. Only the people to whom they refer can lift them from the shelves without suffering madness."

Neville could handle it, not because it might have referred to him, but because Harry was the one who had taken it off the shelves. Thus why Lucius Malfoy and the rest of the Death Eaters were there, ready to receive it the moment he took it off the shelf.

Anyway, onto the topic...

My first reaction when I finished this article was... That's it? Brandon usually gives us much longer editorials, that usually have a huge theory and a dramatic conclusion. This time, I felt as though the essence of this article could be explained in one short sentence: Wormtail was placed at Spinner's End to spy on TFP. That might be a new thing to consider, but on the other hand, it seems so obvious.

Voldemort has much more talented and loyal servants at his side now - he has no use for Wormtail. So he needed some place to keep him - and putting him to watch TFP seemed like a perfect job. Keep the rat out of the way, and keep an eye on TFP - two birds with one stone. However, it's not like that's an unusual mission. Among the Death Eaters there is no such thing as trust. They are most likely watching each other at all times, whether under Voldemort's orders or not. Reporting that someone else is a spy or that so-and-so faltered in their task or loyalty is a way for them to gain a leg up in the ranks. It's simply how life as a Death Eater works.

Obviously Voldemort doesn't trust anyone, but I believe that he trusts TFP less than, say, Bellatrix. Bella may have failed in retreiving the prophecy, but at least she was willing to brave Azkaban for him, and is clearly predisposed to the dark side. Additionally, TFP is like himself - the kid who dabbled in the Dark Arts while he was at school and has a wide range of power and talent. Not to mention that he's a half-blood. Voldemort thought that Harry's half-blood heritage made him worth choosing over Neville, and the same may be true for TFP. Whether Voldemort conciously recognizes it or not, TFP is a worthy enemy, powerful and cunning enough to be a danger to not only Dumbledore, but himself as well. Though we all know he would never admit that.

But, of course, he doesn't trust Wormtail either. The odds are, however, that if he puts two people he doesn't trust and two people that don't trust each other in the same house, he'll find out some interesting information. But what Brandon didn't answer, and instead gave us to chew on - were they paired up for more than espionage reasons? And if so, what were those reasons?

As Brandon said, I certainly hope there is something else. Because spying doesn't really qualify as Wormtail being "up to something" - he was spying in the Weasley house/Hogwarts for twelve years. I'm really hoping he's there for a concrete reason. Voldemort must have used him for something else, a job that only a wizard of his talents (or lack of them) could do. It had better be.

[im_her_one]

She had been charged with its safe return (though again this supports my theory that Voldemort didn't really need or care about the Prophecy, as she couldn't have been able to touch it to hand it to him).

au contraire, Bella could not have lifted it from the shelf, but once Harry had, she could touch it. Neville held the Prophecy for a little while during the battle (right before it was dropped).

Anyways, very interesting editorial. The first thing that crossed my mind after reading HBP was why was Wormtail staying with/spying on TFP? Why was he listening at the keyhole? And was it true that TFP doesn't "know what he [Wormtail] means by it"? I hope it has something to do with Wormtail's redemption, which I'm positive must come. I don't like him, so I don't want a full "oh we forgive you" type thing, but I think that it would be nice if he could "pull a Gollum".

[basicblack]

Well, Brandon, you've gone round the twist this time, old son! What's really creepy--not to mention improbable--is the idea of Bellatrix and the Dark Lord "doing it." I can't imagine for a moment that either of that pair of soulless snakes has enough passion between them to even contemplate sex, much less carry it off.

But if you were only joking, a la Fred & George, then !