Why Voldemort Would Have Spared Lily: Revisited

[Mallamun]

The idea of the Dark Lord sparing Lily because of some subconscious, Freudian discontent does not really click with the character--at least not in my opinion. While there are human flaws in the books that result in human mistakes, everything that is done is also very specific and carefully planned... most especially when we're speaking of the Dark Lord.

JK makes it clear that he would have let Lily live if she accepted his offer. Clearly, there is more than flittering emotional distress at play. Voldemort always has a reason. There has to be some solid, non-abstract reason for Lily's opportunity... which, from what we've come to understand of his ruthlessness, was most likely unique to her.

There are many allusions to there being something special about Lily. I don't think the answer to this question lies in examining Voldemort's possible motivations, but in examining what was specifically unusual about Lily herself. Because Voldemort is pretty consistant.

~~~

Ok, after some pondering, here is my theory:

"So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful countercharm." Tom Riddle's memory, CoS

"You all know that on the night I lose my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in an attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen. ...I could not touch the boy." Lord Voldemort, GoF

Yeah right. Why do I have a hard time believing A) that Voldemort would forget knowledge that was so "obvious" to his 16-year-old self, and B) that he would so openly and clearly admit this "mistake" to his Death Eaters? Could it be... a performance? Purposefully calling it a 'mistake' in the present audience to hide his true motivations?

Dumbledore's ONLY reason for thinking that the prophecy applied to Harry Potter rather than Neville Longbottom was that through attacking Harry, Voldemort had marked Harry as his equal. BUT... what if Voldemort attacking Harry was really his way of marking Neville? What if he gave Lily the option to live and would GENUINELY have let her live because he was perfectly aware of the effect that her CHOOSING to die would have?

"You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father," he hissed softly. "A Muggle and a fool... very like your dear mother. But they both had their uses, did they not? Your mother died to defend you as a child... and I killed my father, and see how useful he has proven himself, in death..." Lord Voldemort, GoF

[Storsy]

I have a personal theory on this one. It is similar to some of the others out there, but goes even further and can account for many things...

Voldemort gave the dirty little Mudblood the option to live as a "present" to one his his faithful, as a token for faithful services. And since that servant, a Deatheater, loved Lily more than he loved any other person, he ended up leaving the services of Voldemort when he SAW Voldemort kill her. That servant is of course Snape. Let me give you my full theory...

I believe that it is quite possible that Severus Snape had a "crush" on Lily Potter, actually even more than a mere crush. Seems she was the only one who ever stood up for him, and possibly the only female who ever showed him any kindness.

Here’s something else that I just thought of recently. In Book 5 Harry gets a rare look at some of Severus Snape’s memories. In fact, the name of the chapter is “Snape’s Worst Memory”. After watching how James Potter and Sirius Black bully Snape during their days in school it is assumed that just the bullying itself is the reason for this being his “worst memory”. At the time when I first read it I just assumed that possibly this one bullying experience was worse than those previous. And though I would imagine that being hung upside down in front of everybody would be a bad memory, I’m not sure if I would be able to classify that as my worst memory. Especially since we know that these guys bullied Severus all of the time. So what was different about this time?

Well first and foremost, this happened directly in front of Lily Potter. If Severus harbored feelings for her then being tortured like this would make it all the more hard to take as it happened in front of someone you would not want to look like a fool in front of. But I think it goes further than even that…

Lets look at that passage a bit further:

'This'll liven you up, Padfoot,' said James quietly. 'Look who it is…'
Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.
'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.'
Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at.
Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he left the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up.
Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows; Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face.
'All right Snivellus?' said James loudly.
Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!'
Snape's wand flew twelve feet into the air and fell with a little thud in the grass behind him. Sirius let out a bark of laughter.
'Impedimenta!' he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet halfway through a dive towards his own fallen wand.
Students all around had turned to watch. Some of them had got to their feet and were edging nearer. Some looked apprehensive, others entertained.
Snape lay panting on the ground. James and Sirius advanced on him, wands raised, James glancing over his shoulder at the girls at the water's edge as he went. Wormtail was on his feet now, watching hungrily, edging around Lupin to get a clearer view.
'How'd the exam go, Snivelly?' said James.
'I was watching him, his nose was touching the parchment,' said Sirius viciously. 'There'll be great grease marks all over it, they won't be able to read a word.'
Several people watching laughed; Snape was clearly unpopular.
Wormtail s******ed shrilly. Snape was trying to get up, but the jinx was still operating on him; he was struggling, as though bound by invisible ropes.
'You - wait,' he panted, staring up at James with an expression of purest loathing, 'you - wait!'
'Wait for what?' said Sirius coolly. 'What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?'
Snape let out a scream of mixed swear words and hexes, but with his wand ten feet away nothing happened.
'Wash out your mouth,' said James coldly. 'Scourgify!'
Pink soap bubbles streamed from Snape's mouth at once; the froth was covering his lips, making him gag, choking him -
'Leave him ALONE!'
James and Sirius looked round. James's free hand immediately jumped to his hair.
It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped eyes - Harry's eyes.
Harry's mother.
'All right, Evans?' said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly pleasant, deeper, more mature.
'Leave him alone,' Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. 'What's he done to you?'
'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean…'
Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily.
'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.'
'I will if you go out with me, Evans,' said James quickly. 'Go on… go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.'
Behind him, the Impediment Jinx was wearing off. Snape was beginning to inch towards his fallen wand, spitting out soapsuds as he crawled.
'I wouldn't go out with you if it was a choice between you and the giant squid,' said Lily.
'Bad luck, Prongs,' said Sirius briskly, and turned back to Snape. 'OI!'
But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.
Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.
Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'
'Certainly,' said James and he jerked his wand upwards; Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, 'Petrificus Totalus!' and Snape kneeled over again, rigid as a board.
'LEAVE HIM ALONE!' Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily.
'Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you,' said James earnestly.
'Take the curse off him, then!'
James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the counter-curse.
'There you go,' he said, as Snape struggled to his feet. 'You're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus -'
'I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!'
Lily blinked.
'Fine,' she said coolly. 'I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus.'
'Apologise to Evans!' James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him.
'I don't want you to make him apologize,' Lily shouted, rounding on James. 'You're as bad as he is.'
'What?' yelped James. 'I'd NEVER call you a - you-know-what!'
'Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can - I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.'
She turned on her heel and hurried away.
'Evans!' James shouted after her. 'Hey, EVANS!'
But she didn't look back.
'What is it with her?' said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him.
'Reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate,' said Sirius.
'Right,' said James, who looked furious now, 'right -'

So, I will agree that this one encounter was pretty bad for Snape, but was it, as far as the hexes and the bullying, worst than previous or later encounters? Are we then to assume that possibly this was the only time that Snape was bullied in front of Lily Evans? It’s possible, but I don’t think that that is it. Since they were from the same grade and were taking many of the same NEWT classes, this type of interaction was likely common place. That being said, then what would make this Snape’s worst memory? Remember, this is a guy who saw his mother beaten by his father, has been a Deatheater, has studied the Dark Arts, and has likely seen and experienced many worse things in his life than being bullied. So why would this be his “worst memory”?

I believe one line in the above dialog stands out more than anything else, and the fact that J.K. Rowling has gone out of her way to create a similar situation in Harry’s experiences with Hermione Granger, another Muggleborn witch, exemplifies this.

That one line is:

'I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!'

Snape didn’t state this premeditated. It was in the heat of the moment and due to his embarrassment. But Lily’s reaction, though expected, says much.

Just imagine that if I am correct, then Snape harbored feelings for Lily. They probably took many of the same classes and she excelled in potions, just as Snape did. In fact, Slughorn remarks that Lily was his most talented potions student, and “Even Snape never”, as he mentioned in Half-blood prince. Also the Slugclub. We know for a fact that Lily was a member, but with the talent that we know Snape showed it was very possible that Snape was a member as well. All this does though is show that they were likely together, at least in a classroom environment, often. I actually wonder if they were teamed up in Potions class and possibly some of the “corrections” in the Half-Blood Prince’s Potions book came from a concerted effort between Snape and Lily. Anyway, Rowling has said that Lily was very popular, and that many were interested in her.

So imagine that Snape did harbor these feelings, though never outwardly. Maybe these feelings were actually, at least in his mind, love. Now James Potter puts Snape into a position where in the heat of the moment Snape calls this woman he loves one of the nastiest words that can be uttered in the wizarding world. And she responds by making fun of him and calling him the same negative nomenclature as Potter and Black used, “Snivellus”. Then imagine that due to this your most hated enemy, in this case James Potter, and the woman you love, Lily Evans, end up together. Would this possibly now be your “worst memory”?

I would say yes.

Anyway, moving on:

We know that Snape was a Deatheater at the time of the Potter’s murders.

So why would Voldermort not want to simply kill Lily Potter? My belief is that Snape’s strongest desire was Lily and Lord Voldemort was going to give her to him for service rendered (or something like that). It is quite possible that Snape was actually at the scene (Godric's Hallow).

Anyway, this could explain much, including why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much (meaning Voldemort killed the woman that Snape was infatuated with and he feels remorse for his hand in it). Snape could have actually left the service of Voldemort when he found out that Voldemort killed Lily.

So there you have it. It would explain why Dumbledore doesn't ever question Snape's loyalty. Love is a very powerful thing and is, in the end, supposed to be the cause of Voldemort's downfall...

-Storsy-

[jammi567]

interesting post, that. It's possible, but not very likely, if only because when has Voldemort ever spared someones life because they loved another person?

[Storsy]

I think you're missing the point. Voldemort is WILLING to spare Lily's life because Snape begged him to do so (because he loved her). Maybe it went so far as to be considered a "reward". I mean, let's be honest...

Snape is undoubtedly very skilled at certain things...

He is possibly even more skilled than even Voldemort is at certain things...

Knowing what we know about his Potion making abilities, I can definitely see Snape being the best potion maker ever, with the possible exception of Lily and maybe Slughorn...

I actually believe that Snape is even better at Potions than Slughorn. Hence why the Prince's Potion book was so amazing. And remember that that was while Snape was at school. By the time he was a Deatheater his skills were possibly even more amazing...

Is it possible that the potion used in the cave to hide the Horcrux was one of the most difficult potions to create? I believe it is possible. I mean, even Dumbledore had an almost impossible time getting around that trap. ..

So even though it is difficult to believe that the Dark Lord would reward his Deatheaters, we do know that he has at least said that he does. When he states that Bella and the others who went to Azkaban and remained faithful would be rewarded, it does at least show that he is willing to reward.

Now imagine that the only thing that one of your most skillful Deatheaters would want is a mudblood witch? Would you give it to him, especially if he provided at item that you require (such as the potion of living death)? Why not. What do you care about some mudblood witch. He could kill her without so much as another thought, but giving her as a reward to a faithful DE wouldn't hurt you either.

So I speculate that that is what happened. Snape asked for Lily as a reward and the Dark Lord said, sure, whatever, what do I care. You can have her. But when she wouldn't move away from Harry the Dark Lord said "oh well, I was going to give her to you, but nw she has to die"...

Snape wanting Lily more than anything, and then seeing that his services have assisted in the killing of her causes him to leave the services and seek pentence with the "good guys".

-Storsy-

[crookshanksfan]

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

I am just adding this because I am not sure if you understood - i was presenting those theories - yet I believe none of them.

Don't worry, I just quoted your post because it was a good summary of a few theories. As I said I've only recently discovered this thread, and as I couldn't be bothered to read through all the pages, I just took the opportunity to comment on your post because you mentioned several theories at the same time. Personally I don't know what to believe (about many HP-related things), but I enjoy discussing whether various theories are probable or not, and that's what I'm doing now.

Originally Posted by Lord_Godric

What exactly are you suggesting that Lily was a Seer?

I was just thinking that the reason Voldemort would want to spare Lily (assuming he would do it only for himself) would have to be something about Lily that was very special. Seers seem to be pretty rare, and maybe the prophecy about Voldemort and (as it turned out) Harry made Voldemort realize that having a Seer among his DEs might come in handy. In that case (and now I'm merely thinking out loud) the chance Lily had to step away from Harry was a test. If she'd step away, Voldemort would know that Lily was the kind of person to act rationally (remember: Voldemort can't love, he doesn't even understand love), but if she didn't, she would prove that she was this loving person who let relationships to people she loved get in the way of common sense, so to speak. If she'd stepped away, she'd proven she could keep her head cold even in a very difficult situation. I think Voldemort finds this an important 'quality'. But Lily didn't, and Voldemort wasn't interested in having a servant who was that much affected by this rubbish called 'love', Seer or not. So he killed her.

That's my suggestion. Not that I believe it, but I think it's worth discussing.

[FredWeasleyJr]

Now as i read through some posts a few ideas ran through my mind so this may seem a little unorganized but bare with me:

number one i dont think that voldemort really WANTED to spare Lily's life. Honestly I dont think it mattered to him that much whether she lived or died (yet). If Voldemort needed to or really wanted to spare her life he would have. He could have imperius'd her into moving, he could have stupefied her he could have done many different things.

But why WOULD he have spared her life? That is a little questionable. At first I thought, maybe she has royal blood...perhaps Gryffindor. But then I think he would really want to save her life for whatever purpose, as opposed to terminating the bloodline for sure. Another possibility is that Snape was indeed in love with her. We know that she was exceptionally kind and was the only one who defended Snivellus Snape. But we also see Snape lash out at her for helping him (OOtP). Lily was also very good at potions and charms and perhaps LV wanted to imperio her under his command. It is very iffy but i think one thing is for sure and that is that he didnt really care whether she lived or not

[Melfina]

We didn't see all of Snapes worst memory did we? Didn't Snape walk back into his office and pulled Harry's head out of the Pensieve before he can see the rest?
And Snape always pulls out more than one memory that he doesn't want Harry to see. Maybe it was a situation between Snape and Voldemort, a conversation about Lily?

[Hedwig50]

Just a few thoughts. I read earlier that someone posted a thought that if Snape really loved Lily and begged to have her life spared, his worst memory would have been seeing her killed. But your'e right, there may have been more memories that Harry didn't have a chance to see. I have a difficult time seeing Voldemort saving someone for anyone. He is cold and ruthless. The only reason I feel he would have spared her is to use her for something else. It also always seemed odd how he calmly says, step aside girl, and other things as though he knows her. He didn't need to say anything to her but kill her and be done with it.

Someone also mentioned that Voldemort would have known about Lilys sacrafice effecting Harry, and dosen't believe Voldemort would have fallen for that. I believe JKR is setting groundwork regarding faults of Voldemort. Dumbledore has said more than once that Voldemort does not always use all his knowledge to see things thru before acting. (or something to that effect). I have always felt that will play a part in Harry defeating Voldemort in the end.

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by Hedwig50

Just a few thoughts. I read earlier that someone posted a thought that if Snape really loved Lily and begged to have her life spared, his worst memory would have been seeing her killed. But your'e right, there may have been more memories that Harry didn't have a chance to see. I have a difficult time seeing Voldemort saving someone for anyone. He is cold and ruthless. The only reason I feel he would have spared her is to use her for something else. It also always seemed odd how he calmly says, step aside girl, and other things as though he knows her. He didn't need to say anything to her but kill her and be done with it.

I don't believe that Voldemort was willing to spare Lily because Snape asked him to. I believe that Snape still held some value to Voldemort and that sparing Lily would have been a means of using her to manipulate Snape to do as he wanted. We've seen Voldemort using love against Draco in this very way, so we do know that while Voldemort may not fully understand love, he does know how to use it against others to get what he wants from them.

We know that Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort feared, and we also know from Hagrid in PS/SS that, at the time the Potters died, Hogwarts was one of the few safe places left and that Voldemort hadn't yet tried to take the school, "not jus' yet," Hagrid says. It seems reasonable that with Voldemort believing he was taking care of the prophecy that night at Godric's Hollow, that he would already be looking ahead to his next goal -- likely Dumbledore's death and the taking of Hogwarts. With Snape in position near Albus and inside the school, he would have still been valuable to Voldemort. Offering Lily the choice to step aside and live would have given Voldemort an easy means of keeping Snape in line and doing his will. When she refused to step aside, he went ahead and killed her because when it came down to it, sparing her and holding her continued safety over Snape's head was one way of getting what he wanted, but certainly not the only way.

[Moriath]

Consider this post as a kind request not to turn this thread into a Snape/Lily thread. For the time being this topic is taboo.

[Memphis]

Not too sure if someone has said this but, a nice quick short post... Can't be bothered into going into it too much.

I think Lily was an orphan, the same as LV and that is one of the reasons why he spared her.

[Melfina]

Unless I'm much mistaken, I think Lily had parents. Rowling mentions in one of her interviews that both James and Lily have parents, but they are never mentioned in the books because they don't really add to any of the stories.

[Memphis]

Originally Posted by Melfina

Unless I'm much mistaken, I think Lily had parents. Rowling mentions in one of her interviews that both James and Lily have parents, but they are never mentioned in the books because they don't really add to any of the stories.

Yeah, she does say Lily has parents, but children that have been adopted, the family they go into could still be classified as her parents.( not blood mother or father but still parents/gaurdians)

A little bit is spoken about James's parent how Sirius stayed there but nothing really about Lily's..

But just a crack-pot theory though..

[Sirius12]

Lily has a mother. When Petunia is criticizing her, she mentions that Lily was her mothers favorite.

[skippaduu]

i haven't read what others have posted but has anyone thought that perhaps voldemort would have spared lily because he didn't think lily was worthy enough of being killed by "the great lord voldemort"?
James was a pureblood (if i remember correctly) and he prolly started casting spells at the first sight of Lord Voldemort. Now, Lily on the other hand didn't put up a fight (as far as i know) and was muggleborn. that might explain why voldemort would have spared her. Because of his own ego

[JimmyPotter]

Originally Posted by Memphis

Yeah, she does say Lily has parents, but children that have been adopted, the family they go into could still be classified as her parents.( not blood mother or father but still parents/gaurdians)

A little bit is spoken about James's parent how Sirius stayed there but nothing really about Lily's..

But just a crack-pot theory though..

In OOTP Dumbledore said he placed Harry with the Dursleys because he'd still be with Lily's blood that lives on in her sister. So Lily and Petunia were biological sisters. Whether they were adopted together is another question.

I think that Voldemort likely wanted to make Lily watch her baby die. That is supposedly the worst experience for any parent. I cannot say personally because I do not have any children. My guess is that it would be like getting hit with a mental Crucio curse.

[Hedwig50]

BY: HagathaChristie,
When she refused to step aside, he went ahead and killed her because when it came down to it, sparing her and holding her continued safety over Snape's head was one way of getting what he wanted, but certainly not the only way.

Thanks for responding to my post. I really like this idea. You give Voldamort more depth. Despising the idea of love but using it as a weapon. Interesting thought.

[MioneBookworm]

Originally Posted by Hedwig50

Despising the idea of love but using it as a weapon. Interesting thought.

Wow, I like that idea too! In fact, it is indeed Voldemort's underestimation towards love which leads him to his downfall. I say underestimation because of the fact that he plays with it shows so.

As to whether Snape asked him to spare Lily's life, as I've said before in this thread, it is very probable indeed. Snape, being the smart villain that he is (villanous, but all the same smart) could have perfectly hidden his desire for Lily to live behind the fact that she could 'help the death eaters with potions'. This would mean that he was pretty blinded by his love of her, though: he probably knew in his heart that she would never go to the Dark Side, least of them all go to him after they killed James.

[Mallamun]

Just a little nudge to see if anyone read my hypothesis that Voldemort offered to spare Lily's life because he knew the effects this would have, or if it is being ignored because it's just that bad? lol

[hoopsterdiva42]

this is going out on a limb (which i do quite often) although lily was a mug-blood, she was a smart mug-blood..maybe voldy wanted her to live for his own purposes? he wanted power, and lily, if she chose to live, would probably have been able to feed into that power..just a thought