Why Voldemort Would Have Spared Lily: Revisited

[Triddy]

I don't have my books on hand(Cousin has 3 - 5. He has had 3 - 5 for almost 3 years.) so if this is completely wrong, just tell me in a friendly manner.

As far as I know, the books never went so far as to say Voldemort didn't know about the protection Lily would give Harry if she sacrificed herself for him. He just didn't think much of it. For an all powerful wizard who nobody could dream of stopping, whats a tiny bit of protection? However, after hearing the prophecy, Voldemort wanted Harry dead, quickly. Fast forward to Voldemort killing James. Voldemort enters the room with Lily and Harry. In the back of his mind, he knows that Harry might be protected slightly if Lily dies for him. So he offers Lily the chance to live, hoping she would take it. While Voldemort underestimates the protection, discounts it as minor, he doesn't want even the tiniest thing getting in his way. If Lily had chosen to live, he would have finished off Harry and let her live for the time being(he may be evil, but he must have some honor left.)

[LouisaB]

Originally Posted by jaymz

I've spoken my mind more than once about this... Care to comment pleas?

Sorry, I am not quite sure what you are wanting me to comment on here. The stunning comments were in response to staniw and I think I have already said as much as I am able to on that, at least at the present time. (listens for staniw breathing a sigh of relief


The response to your comment was :-

I have no idea who else could have been there though have some vague theories - none of which hold up to close scrutiny though.

As I said any theories I have do not bear up under close scrutiny so I won't be posting them here.

[Artemis_Fowl_2]

Originally Posted by Triddy

As far as I know, the books never went so far as to say Voldemort didn't know about the protection Lily would give Harry if she sacrificed herself for him. He just didn't think much of it. For an all powerful wizard who nobody could dream of stopping, whats a tiny bit of protection? However, after hearing the prophecy, Voldemort wanted Harry dead, quickly. Fast forward to Voldemort killing James. Voldemort enters the room with Lily and Harry. In the back of his mind, he knows that Harry might be protected slightly if Lily dies for him. So he offers Lily the chance to live, hoping she would take it. While Voldemort underestimates the protection, discounts it as minor, he doesn't want even the tiniest thing getting in his way. If Lily had chosen to live, he would have finished off Harry and let her live for the time being(he may be evil, but he must have some honor left.)

I think that if Voldemort had an inkling that Lily's dying for Harry would save him, then I think he would have killed her outright instead of giving her the chance to die for her son. If he killed her immediately, she would not have the option to protect her son so the protection would not have come into play.

I'm also not sure that Voldemort has any sense of honor, but that discussion can be for a different thread. I just can't see him honoring anyone but himself.

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by Nicole

Glad that didn't work out! Too LOTR for me (Grima Wormtongue was supposed to get Eowyn as his 'reward' for spying and manipulating; that one didn't work out, either!).

There is a lot in common between the two works...

Originally Posted by Nicole

Harry, Lily and Voldemort.

JKR has suggested in an interview there was someone else and it would be important for the plot. My guess is Severus...

Originally Posted by Nicole

Voldemort wanted something from Lily and it wasn't her spell/potions skills. Gee, what else did he want that night? Oh, yeah, a Gryffindor relic so he could make a horcrux from Harry's murder! Only two known Gryffindor relics: Sorting Hat (and Jo confirmed that the Hat is not a horcrux) and ruby-encrusted Sword. Lily must have hidden The Sword in a way that only a "true Gryffindor" could locate it (actually, I would say it had been hidden in a way that only a "true Gryffindor" could summon it). She would then be very valuable alive, but hey, there is another Gryffindor available (and Peter was close enough to retrieve Voldemort's wand when the action went down; I wouldn't go as far as to say he was also in the room as there are no passages to indicate that much). [Just my wild theory, though. Voldemort was after the Potters even before the prophecy. ]

I'm going with the LOTR theory

I've explained it quite thouroughly in this thread... I think it fits quite nicely.

[LouisaB]

If Snape was the person in the room, how do you explain his lie to Bellatrix and Narcissa about being in Hogwart's (on Voldemort's orders) on the night that the Dark Lord fell?

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

If Snape was the person in the room, how do you explain his lie to Bellatrix and Narcissa about being in Hogwart's (on Voldemort's orders) on the night that the Dark Lord fell?

Because the dark lord fell that night. What would he accomplish telling them he was there but raise suspition?

I don't think Bellatrix believes it was love that vanquished Voldemort... She'll be the very last person alive to believe love is that powerful.

He has no interest whatsoever to bring up that discussion. This way he'll raise no eyebrows. She already suspects him to be a traitor, if he mentioned

"Yeah, I was there when an unarmed one year old apparently performed Avada Kedavra on the world's most powerful dark wizard"

Snape lied... He's used to it.

[LouisaB]

Suspicion has already been raised though, and telling them a blatant lie seems to be a rather stupid thing to do.

Sooner or later he would be caught out in the lie. It's not like it's even a partial truth, it is an obvious lie.

And I very much doubt that Snape's movements weren't being watched by one or more of the death eaters before Voldemort fell. They would surely be suspecting a spy in their own midst even back then when the Potters had been tipped off enough to go into hiding and move around. Snape would be an ideal suspect as he is perfectly situated in Dumbledore's employment.

[vlasiou]

I read only the first 50 messages or so, so forgive me if this has been mentioned. I guess (like many) that he offered her to spare her because he would like to recruit her. Her refusal indicated to him that she will not willingly ever help him, even if that would be to save her life. So since she will never yield, there is no point in stunning her and killing her later. You just get over it at that point.

Now why recruit her? He doesn't need just another member. He needs her. Why? I don't buy the Potions/Charms skills. Indeed Snape was in Hogwarts, but he would meet/communicate with Voldemort regularly (to report). Therefore, should Voldemort need a Potion, or should he need some research on Potions offering immortality, he could always order Snape to get on to it and report back when ready.

I think that the reason that he wanted to spare her is connected to her profession. My guess are the Unspeakables. Reasons: they have been mentioned before, but we haven't met any (apart from a guy passing from a corridor in the MoM); we have met the department, but we only got introduced into it (we have seen which mysteries are studied by the Unspeakables) -JKR usually introduces an idea in one book, but fully exploits it in another; the mysteries studied there appeal to Voldy: life, death, time etc.

My guess is that Lily was an Unspeakable. She studied either Death or Love. She is known to be the brightest witch around. Voldemort's spies tell him that Lily is famous in MoM for her work. They cannot tell him what exactly she is doing and if she has made any progress because nobody knows the exact work of the Unspeakables, apart from the fact that they are in the department of mysteries. Voldemort wants to see if Lily knows either how to cheat Death or what the after-life brings.

This is the only job that I can think of that would be of interest to Voldy and that would be "extremely important to the story" and that would justify why he would really spare her should she choose to live, and why stunning her made no sense. She clearly refused to co-operate. The knowledge/usage Lily must have had should be impossible to replace.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by jaymz

JKR has suggested in an interview there was someone else and it would be important for the plot.

Someone else was at Godric's Hollow, yes. It's a village, not a house. Please provide the quote that says another person was in the room when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at either Lily or Harry. I would love to see it!

Peter Pettigrew is the one who wound up with Voldemort's wand...no Death Eater was going to give it to him (Master's precious, you know), so he must have been the one who retrieved it from the Potter hidey-house in the village of Godric's Hollow. Who else was at Godric's Hollow the night James and Lily were killed? v2 is the place for that portion, though.

Originally Posted by vlasiou

I think that the reason that he wanted to spare her is connected to her profession. My guess are the Unspeakables.

He already had Augustus Rookwood in his camp, why would he need another Unspeakable? (It's a popular idea, though. Jo won't tell us about Lily's profession...yet.)

[vlasiou]

Originally Posted by Nicole

He already had Augustus Rookwood in his camp, why would he need another Unspeakable? (It's a popular idea, though. Jo won't tell us about Lily's profession...yet.)

Exacly because of the reason you mention: he had Rockwood. He was in the Profecies, right? So 1) he knows that Lily is an Unspeakable working on something closer to Voldemorts heart: namely Death 2) he knows how good she is considered to be and 3) he doesn't have the knowledge to help Voldy himself because it is not where he is specialised. Therefore, he needs Lily.

(Proof: what was the name of they guy that reassured Voldemort that anybody could just pick up the profecy and Voldemort spent half a year trying to get Bode get it? And this guy was punished because after the DE's broke out of Askaban, Rockwood told Voldy that it could be only Harry or himself. Well, the guy with the wrong information was working at the MoM. This shows that even employees at the MoM have little knowledge about the exact workings at the department of mysteries. I guess that's why they are called Unspeakables: their work is so highly classified and specialised that not even people specialised in different mysteries can be of much use out of their specialisation.)

[LouisaB]

Originally Posted by Nicole

Someone else was at Godric's Hollow, yes. It's a village, not a house. Please provide the quote that says another person was in the room when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at either Lily or Harry. I would love to see it!

I suspect this is the quote referred to. "No comment" being taken in this case as a confirmation that someone was there.

Originally Posted by The Leaky Cauldron & Mugglenet Interview 16 July 2005

MA: Was there anyone else present in Godric’s Hollow the night Harry’s parents were killed?

JKR: No comment.

[squibpott]

Exacly because of the reason you mention: he had Rockwood. He was in the Profecies, right? So 1) he knows that Lily is an Unspeakable working on something closer to Voldemorts heart: namely Death 2) he knows how good she is considered to be and 3) he doesn't have the knowledge to help Voldy himself because it is not where he is specialised. Therefore, he needs Lily.

What was the name of they guy that reassured Voldemort that anybody could just pick up the profecy and Voldemort spent half a year trying to get Bode get it? And this guy was punished because after the DE's broke out of Askaban, Rockwood told Voldy that it could be only Harry or himself. Well, the guy with the wrong information was working at the MoM. This shows that even employees at the MoM have little knowledge about the exact workings at the department of mysteries. I guess that's why they are called Unspeakables: their work is so highly classified and specialised that not even people specialised in different mysteries can be of much use out of their specialisation.

Wow. I never thought of that. It makes perfect sense. If Lily was an Unspeakable studying Love or/and Death then it would fit perfectly with her sacrifice. Lily knew from her studies of that mystery that she would protect her son in sacrificing herself...

'It was Love. You see when Lily Potter sacrificed her life to save her only son it provided him with protection. I could not touch him. It was old magic... I should have forseen it...'
Lord Voldemort GoF movie

If she had studied love she would know that her sacrifice would save her son against any attack from Voldemort, which would mean that she probably knew that Voldemort would attack her son once she was gone anyway.

I can't remember the exact quote but in PS didn't Hagrid tell Harry that he couldn't understand why Lord Voldemort hadn't tried to recruit the Potters before he killed them. I n fact I think it was one of the first things he ever told Harry in that conversation after Diagon Alley. It was in the movie too. This was probably another one of Rowlings suffocated little clues. Voldemort was trying to recruit Lily but could see that it was going nowhere as vslaiou said.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

I suspect this is the quote referred to. "No comment" being taken in this case as a confirmation that someone was there.

There is, to me, a difference between "in Godric's Hollow, the village", "in Godric's Hollow at the Potter place" and "in Godric's Hollow in the very room where Voldemort offered Lily a chance to live".

The "no comment" means Pettigrew was hanging around, I think. But it doesn't place the spectator in the room at that particular moment. Melissa's question wasn't that specific, was it?

[LouisaB]

Originally Posted by Nicole

There is, to me, a difference between "in Godric's Hollow, the village", "in Godric's Hollow at the Potter place" and "in Godric's Hollow in the very room where Voldemort offered Lily a chance to live".

The "no comment" means Pettigrew was hanging around, I think. But it doesn't place the spectator in the room at that particular moment. Melissa's question wasn't that specific, was it?

I agree entirely. However that is the only quote I can think of or find that would be the one referred to previously on the thread.

It is a question of interpretation and with Godric's Hollow being a village I think that it is one of those replies of JKR's that is very cleverly done.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by squibpott

If she had studied love she would know that her sacrifice would save her son against any attack from Voldemort, which would mean that she probably knew that Voldemort would attack her son once she was gone anyway.

JKR says Lily didn't know.

MN&TLC interview, 16 July 2005 ES: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live? JKR: Mhm. ES: Why? JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer; you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There's your answer - you've just answered your own question - because she could have lived - and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family, but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way. I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense, her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice. - ES: And James didn't. JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer. MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in front of Harry? JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, therefore, knew that could happen. MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] - JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular way.

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by Nicole

Someone else was at Godric's Hollow, yes. It's a village, not a house. Please provide the quote that says another person was in the room when Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra at either Lily or Harry. I would love to see it!

Yes, Godric's Hollow was the village, but that's not what the interviewer ment and not what JK understood or she wouldn't have said no comment. She, I believe ment the room and that's why she didn't comment... At least that's how I read it...

[BlackSerpent7]

I want to ask the question thats not being asked. Why wouldn't Voldemort have spared James? Think about this, why not the Pureblood who would have fit much better into the DE fold? Voldemort wasted a lot of energy fighting James. He says "I killed him in the end" That makes me think it was a touch and go fight for VM. It would have been much easier for VM to convince James to join him or to Stun him(maybe) by revealing Peter's betrayl. If he could get James on his side for even two days he could have gotten to Harry. Two other questions: Where was Lilys wand? Why was she beggining and not fighting? If she had fought maybe she could have won, VM was exhausted from that fight with James.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by jaymz

Yes, Godric's Hollow was the village, but that's not what the interviewer ment and not what JK understood or she wouldn't have said no comment. She, I believe ment the room and that's why she didn't comment... At least that's how I read it...

I think it's just as possible she didn't comment because she didn't want to silence any rumors as it is she didn't want to divulge anything. I'm sorry, but if your basis for saying someone else was in the room is a "no comment," I'm not sure I'll be able to agree.

I can understand the argument that if there was someone in the room, he or she had to have had a vested interest in the fate of the Potters, but we don't know yet. I'm just saying, if we first have to interpret what the interviewer really meant and then invent an answer, how likely are we to be correct?

[LouisaB]

Originally Posted by BlackSerpent7

I want to ask the question thats not being asked. Why wouldn't Voldemort have spared James? Think about this, why not the Pureblood who would have fit much better into the DE fold? Voldemort wasted a lot of energy fighting James. He says "I killed him in the end" That makes me think it was a touch and go fight for VM. It would have been much easier for VM to convince James to join him or to Stun him(maybe) by revealing Peter's betrayl. If he could get James on his side for even two days he could have gotten to Harry. Two other questions: Where was Lilys wand? Why was she beggining and not fighting? If she had fought maybe she could have won, VM was exhausted from that fight with James.

The interview with JKR covers James pretty well as well. He basically attacked in defence of his family, and because he was quick to do so he was never given the choice. At least that is how I read it. If you have a look at the interview, it is further back on this thread, then you will see for yourself what was said and may have a different interpretation.

[Artemis_Fowl_2]

Originally Posted by Nicole

He already had Augustus Rookwood in his camp, why would he need another Unspeakable? (It's a popular idea, though. Jo won't tell us about Lily's profession...yet.)

He would need another Unspeakable because there is more than one section in the Department of Mysteries. I'm sure Rookwood does not have all the answers Voldemort desires.