The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero

[coco1965]

I've always had the opinion that it would make for an interesting scene, if during a confrontation between Snape and Harry, that Fawkes would show up and stand between them. Except in this instance it would be Snape he would be defending.
This might be the one thing that would give Harry pause long enough to listen t what he had to say.

[alwaysme]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I've always had the opinion that it would make for an interesting scene, if during a confrontation between Snape and Harry, that Fawkes would show up and stand between them. Except in this instance it would be Snape he would be defending.
This might be the one thing that would give Harry pause long enough to listen t what he had to say.

That would be interesting!

[ignisia]

I personally love Fawkes theories a lot, because it would a) be dramatic and b) It would be a big step toward Snape gaining Harry's trust.

[cruplover]

Count me in on Fawkes and Snape theories as well. Harry has already been versed in Fawkes's aid to those showing great loyalty to Dumbledore, so it would at least give Harry pause to think if Fawkes and Snape were seen together!

[Sarapsys]

Hear hear...I'm a big subscriber to the Sev's-patronus-will-turn-into-a-phoenix theory too

[ignisia]

Oh, yes, that one s great too! I've imagine scenarios where Harry gets help finding and destroying the horcruxes through a patronus message, and then, when he finds out who sent it, he is speechless.

[Sarapsys]

that would be a great mirror to the potions book/halfblood prince thing.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by Sarapsys

Hear hear...I'm a big subscriber to the Sev's-patronus-will-turn-into-a-phoenix theory too

I agree, I think being forced to kill someone you respect, would count as an emotional upheaval substancial enough for a patronus change.

Originally Posted by ignisia

Oh, yes, that one s great too! I've imagine scenarios where Harry gets help finding and destroying the horcruxes through a patronus message, and then, when he finds out who sent it, he is speechless.

I was once a believer in the DD faked his death theory, partly becasue of when Harry thought that he hadn't "really" looked for a loophole to him being alive, like he did with Sirius. I think this thought would tie into the patronus theory quite well. If Harry recieves a message from a pheonix patronus, he would possibly think that there really was a loophole, and that DD was really sending the message, even though it really came from Snape.

[Sarapsys]

IDK...he saw AD's body, watched it go up in flames on the pyre. It's not like Sirius, where he has no closure or certainty. I like the idea of him thinking the messages are from AD, but I don't think it's very plausible. On the other hand, I do think Severus is the absolute last person he would expect.

[hwyla]

We do kind of have a bit of precedence tho' in Harry's Patronus of Prongs. Albus described it as 'Prongs rode again' - or something very like that (anyone offhand remember the wording?). But he meant that even tho' it was Harry's patronus, James was still WITH Harry. In other words that Harry's patronus was NOT just a patronus as such - but an incarnation of James.

Add to this the idea that Albus invented the method of sendning messages by patronus and I see what could be an acceptable loop-hole for the appearance that Albus is sending a message from the afterlife.

Did that make sense?

[Tane]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I've always had the opinion that it would make for an interesting scene, if during a confrontation between Snape and Harry, that Fawkes would show up and stand between them. Except in this instance it would be Snape he would be defending.
This might be the one thing that would give Harry pause long enough to listen t what he had to say.

Long time no see. I have been busy with art course work recently and deadline is today before we go down south for an art group landscape 4 days drawing and gathering data for the next work.

Anyway less of that and back on topic for me.

That would be a good scene the look on Harry's face would be amusing to say the least. Fawkes be loyal to Snape because he is still loyal to Dumbledore even though he killed him. This would really confuse Harry some what. I wonder if Harry will turn on Fawkes at first and not believe what his eyes would show him.

On the other hand Harry and Snape do need to get things off there chest. A good shouting match would probably do it with Harry keeping his mouth shut and his mind closed against Snape. If Harry did this with out killing Snape of course then Snape might stand down because after all Harry will be doing what Snape told him to do at the end of HBP.

I have a feeling that by the end of this series, Snape and Harry will have resolved there differences to a certain degree. That is if Snape lives through this.

[lolli]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

There is enough action in between that I think Harry was probably reacting to his changed circumstances. At the time he yelled the 'kill me' line, he had been disarmed by Snape. (Making him as helpless at that moment as Dumbledore had been on the Tower).


In which case, Harry would blame Snape for four deaths (Sirius, James, Dumbledore, Lily). I think he would have used a plural, if he meant this sort of extended guilt. I do think Snape and Harry were on the same page at that point, and they were both talking about Dumbledore

c´mon, this is too much analyzing we are talking about human beings here (fictional, of course)....there is more of emotion and boiling blood than cold sense and brains in both Harry and Snape here...
Snape is thinking of James as he always does when looking at Harry.
Harry is talking about Dumbledore. That´s the only freaking thing on his mind. A sixteen-year-old wouldn´t analyze all Snape´s actions in this state of shock.

oki doki?

[arithmancer]

Hi Lolli! I hope you enjoy discussing Snape with us!

Harry is talking about Dumbledore, yes. That was what I was trying to explain. I was debating another poster who suspected Harry was talking about James.

However, since it is your opinion that Snape was talking about James: could you explain to me why it makes sense to you that the thought of having 'killed' James suddenly, at that moment, causes Snape to appear to be in as much emotional pain as a dog trapped in a burning building?

I find this unlikely. James died sixteen years ago, and Snape has had plenty of time to assimilate any bad feelings he may have about it. He has referred to James's death in the past in terms more angry than pained. For exmaple, PoA, Shrieking Shack scene:

PoA "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black --"

Further, Snape did not kill him, as the Priori Incantatem sequence of GoF seems to establish. The murder weapon was the wand of Voldemort.

It just makes a lot more sense to me that Snape did not want to kill Dumbledore, and that is the fresh emotional wound which is causing Snape's reaction in that scene.

[coco1965]

HEY TANE Welcome back!! Wondered where you were........

Originally Posted by Tane

That would be a good scene the look on Harry's face would be amusing to say the least. Fawkes be loyal to Snape because he is still loyal to Dumbledore even though he killed him. This would really confuse Harry some what. I wonder if Harry will turn on Fawkes at first and not believe what his eyes would show him.

I think there would be a moment of stunned silence first, (with a few but...but... but's in there) where Snape could get a few words in, before a shouting match begins.

[Sarapsys]

This is purely hypothetical, bc I have difficulty seeing it happening, but how do you think Harry and/or Severus would react if one apologized to the other?

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by sarapsys

This is purely hypothetical, bc I have difficulty seeing it happening, but how do you think Harry and/or Severus would react if one apologized to the other?

That would depend entirely on when, and for what, I'd say.

At present, matters seem to have escalated past that point.

For example, we on this thread don't believe that Snape really has anything to apologize for in the matter of Dumbledore's death (It was a plan, or a necessity of war to save what lives could be saved, or a mercy killing, or, in fact, Snape did not kill him at all since something else did, in the various theories that have been advanced here.) But any apology by Snape to Harry which omits this point would be viewed by Harry as ridiculous in the present situation.

And Harry would never, under the current circumstances, consider apologizing to Snape. For what? Suspecting him of evil doings? Harry is convinced he was right to suspect him, at this point.

[Sarapsys]

I know that, but just supposing they did apologize for being so snarky to each other all the time before Harry found out he heard the Prophecy and the killing of the mentor and all that. Would one even accept an apology from the other? Could they be made to be reasonable with each other?

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Sarapsys

I know that, but just supposing they did apologize for being so snarky to each other all the time before Harry found out he heard the Prophecy and the killing of the mentor and all that. Would one even accept an apology from the other? Could they be made to be reasonable with each other?

Personally, I think an apology for the Pensieve dive might have helped. I can't imagine Snape accepting it gracefully, especially not in the heat of the moment, as he was LIVID when he found Harry, but it seemed to me that Snape had started to develop some sympathy for Harry during the Occlumency lessons, which went out the door completely after that incident.

I don't think Snape himself believes that he wronged Harry in his behavior towards him in school, so I can't see him apologizing. I think the statements he has made about treating Harry just like anyone else, etc. are mostly sincere (their accuracy is another matter, and one not for this thread). But my opinion of Harry as a character is that he would, absolutely, accept a sincere apology from anyone, even Snape, over a matter which solely regards Harry.

[vrlc50]

Originally Posted by MysticAngel

Not at all, particularly with regards to his analysis of the events as he recounts them in the Infirmary - he does place the blame squarely on Snape's shoulders, because he delivered the Prophecy. We already saw that same reaction from Harry when Dumbledore confirms that it had been Snape who'd overheard and reported the Prophecy (after Sybil gets thrown out of the Room of Requirement). In that sense, "Kill me, like you killed him" could take various connotations. It could be the rawness of the emotions after witnessing Dumbledore's death that prompted the comment, and the referral could indeed be to the Headmaster's death. Unresolved, utterly repressed feelings regarding Sirius' death could have also come to the fore, and it could be an amalgamation between the two killings -- Dumbledore's and Padfoot's (still brought on by Dumbledore's demise, but with added fierceness, because Snape remains the culprit in Sirius' death, as far as Harry sees). Or it could, indeed, be a comment triggered by Snape's jibe about James and the Marauders, picking at the knowledge that had been just hours before confirmed by Dumbledore -- that Snape had given Voldemort the partial Prophecy, wherein again, we could have a juxtaposition between the Dumbledore's death and what now becomes Snape's fault -- James' death.

We know from Snape's comments during the "Flight of the Prince" duel between himself and Harry, that Snape was employing Legilimency, thereby thwarting any of Harry's attempted offensive barrage. I do wonder what Snape was focused on during that impromptu Legilimency session, and how that may have affected what he chose to "teach" Harry during those final moments.

The argument of a 'combination' always leads me back to Golpallot's Third Law, wherein it is stated that an antidote is more than the sum... It basically sets a precedent, for which we have canon backing as far as other events go, that a combination of various forms of magic is quite likely to produce an effect that's higher than the expected sum of these isolated forms. To illustrate, the Trio's concerted 'Expelliarmus' flung Snape out and back, knocking him unconscious through brute force of impact (amplification of identical magic - PoA), and the combination of 'Jelly Legs' and 'Furnunculus' is stated to cause a sprouting of numerous small tentacles (combination of different forms of magic - GoF, final chapter, when Malfoy comes bragging about the Dark Lord's resurrection). In light of these examples, it's very probable that the combination between the magic of the curse (which we know was still active), and the magic imbued in the Horcrux protection potion, was likely to have delivered the final blow long before Harry and Dumbledore made it atop that tower.

Coco - that's definitely a good point regarding the use of Avada Kedavra versus another spell (or, indeed, other lethal means, i.e. poison) and its effects on the integrity of the soul. I also view it as a distinction further refined by the applicable definition of "murder" - if I remember correctly, it was in fact murder that was purported to tear apart the soul; would then a magical definition of euthanasia, or of mercy killing, still qualify as 'murder'?

It would sort of be like the firing squad idea wouldn't it. Dumbledore telling Snape that he has to cast the AK because something is going to kill him...but he doesn't know which. Dumbledore's being eating away from whatever curse existed on the ring/horcrux that he destroyed, he's just drunk poison from a basin, and he's old....one of those things is going to kill him. Snape has agreed to do what he asked....but Snape will never know if whether when he cast that AK he rendered the final blow. He will also never know if he saved Dumbledore from a gruesome death by making it instantaneous.

I have to go back to two points I've made repeatedly that might actually be relevant here, especially if there's any chance that when JKR said Dumbledore is dead, she was referring to the other Dumbledore. The first is the Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Nitwit, Thank You and how it can turn into an anagram for something about being burnt and in the White Tomb (go to thread for specific message)...I found it and still find it very odd that a couple of nonsense words can be rearranged to come up with a sentence about the White Tomb and that those words were reintroduced in the chapter entitled, The White tomb. The second thing is the opal necklace...and Slughorns lessons about teaching his students to create antidotes by identifying the ingredients that made up the potion so that the antidote can be created by using antidotes for each of its parts.. If one can use a potion to counteract a spell, then one should be able to use a spell to counteract a potion. Or a combination of potion, charm, and spell, etc. And development of that requires breaking the spell, charm or potion down to its elements. Snape was given those opals, if I recall....he has had ample time to break down the curse to create an antidote...and I would not be surprised if the antidote was somehow related to the Avada Kedavra.

I am not trying to say that Albus is alive...don't get me wrong. I am saying that the White Tomb, the opals, the avada kedavra, and Slughorns lessons on antidotes are all somehow related to what went on in the tower. I just wish I could read JKR's mind.

But there is no way Snape did anything that day that he was not required to do in order to further the final outcome. Someday, Harry will come to terms with that.

Please, let Dumbledore have left him a private message...maybe in the White Tomb!

[touchstone]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I agree, I think being forced to kill someone you respect, would count as an emotional upheaval substancial enough for a patronus change.

If I am reading this idea right, I have to say it is probably the first thing that has made me feel better about Albus' death. I could really get into this story line. I hope this happens.