The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero

[taniacote]

Hi,
without wanting to insult anybody here I would just like to give a personal opinion on whether or not Snape is on the Order's side or Death Eaters'... Personally I would rather Snape to be on the Order's side since the more the better but I undoubtly think that he isn't since it would be too easy to put him there... It seem in a an interview Mrs.Rowling answered a question on the subject by saying that the basic idea was right (somewhere on muggle net you might find it it's within the book reading she held) if you analyze correctly the question it says Snape really is one of the Order's foe and not ally hence the reason of my posting, please forgive me if I hurt anybody the intention was not there and please remember that if I am right about that than J.K.Rowling will have made a very good villain of Snape since his side was hard to figure out. Thank you,

[hwyla]

Tanicote - FIRST let me welcome you to CoS. It can be quite a fun place. And compliment you on how polite your post was.

I'll point out that unfortunately JKRs answer to Mr. Rushdie can be interpreted in more than one way. She said he was on the right track (which would imply that Snape IS 'good'), but alos said that Mr. Rushdie was wrong in believing Albus might still be alive.

It really isn't surprising that she's rather unlikely to be telling anyone in an interview that a character she currently wants to appear evil is really a good guy, but many of us think she has planted a lot of clues that he's still 'good'.

This thread looks at his character based on the idea that he IS still loyal to the Order but under deep cover as a spy. You may not be aware that there are two other threads on Snape that look at him from a different perspective. One where he is considered a true villain - loyal to Voldy and one that seems to fall somplace in the middle called 'Obscure'

You might want to check out those other two threads as well, so you can decide which thread fits your beliefs best.

[Inkwolf]

Yes, Hwyla said it best.

Welcome to the forum, Taniacote!

I'm afraid our Snape threads are segregated, so when you've picked one you like, please don't post in the other two.

Snape the Villain is for if you think Snape is working for himself or for Voldemort

Snape the Obscure is mainly for if you believe Snape is working for the Order, but is a bad person.

Have fun!

[Tane]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I think there would be a moment of stunned silence first, (with a few but...but... but's in there) where Snape could get a few words in, before a shouting match begins.

Yes the you betrayed my parents line is essential so that Snape can defend his stance on that and tell Harry that even though he hated James he would never want to be responcible for either James, Lily's and Harry's deaths. Snape did not know that Voldemort would target the Potter and this is something that needs to come from Snape, as hard as it will be Snape needs to say sorry and be as remorseful in front of Harry, the way he was infront of Dumbledore if he is not that bad.[.quote]

[Inkwolf]

Hi, Tane! Welcome back!

I don't think Snape has it in him to explain himself to Harry. His inner self is very closed-off, especially to anyone who he doesn't like and who reminds him of James.

That's why I, too, am hoping Fawkes will intervene and save Snape from Harry. That would be a major stunner, and force Harry to take stock.

[MysticAngel]

Good point, Inkwolf! Snape is too private to elaborate on his own life -- I particularly don't see him sharing painful or humiliating episodes; actually, I don't see him sharing any emotional episodes, even more so with Harry. Even in PoA, when Snape questions Harry on his head being in Hogsmeade, when he relates the werewolf!Lupin in Shrieking Shack tunnel incident, he is very stingy on the details, and puts the issue out there in a very straightforward manner - he dispels the belief in James' heroism, but almost clinically, devoid of elaborations. We actually learn more details from Sirius (both defensive and incriminating).

[Sarapsys]

I agree that he'd be clinical about it, but I think he would almost have to tell Harry more about himself, why AD trusted him at the very least, just bc it's going to be vital at the end that he trusts Severus.

Maybe he'll get really upset and lose control of his emotions and rant a bit and we'll get a better look into the inner workings of Sev Snape....*perks up hopefully*

[silver ink pot]

Well, I think Snape has never been able to speak openly about the past to Harry, except his resentment of James. But it would be too dangerous to say too much to a boy with no Occlumency skills.

However, I agree that Snape keeps so much hidden that it is nearly going to take Veritaserum to get something out of him.

I just think the "truth" is so different from the story Voldemort knows about Snape that it's too risky for Harry to know. Obviously it will have to come out in Book Seven - *also looks hopeful.*

[coco1965]

I do think that at some point Snape will tell Harry something. As it stands right now, Snape still has to remain undercover. That link between Harry and LV is still there. Any information that Harry recieves could be a liablility, if LV re opens the link. I think Snape wants to tell Harry. From the escape scene, he came very close (I think) to telling him what really was going on. That scene proves (to me at least) that Snape does have feelings, that run very deep. He has become so adapt at covering them up, it appears on the surface that he doesn't have any. The way I see it, Snapes 'character' is a well rehearsed act. Granted there apparently isn't much of a personality behind it, but I think that to a degree, this is part of the act as well. Once LV is gone, there will be no reason to continue the charade, and the truth (at least some of it) will come out. As Snape is the only one left with who can tell him certain parts of it. I'm sure that Harry will dismiss it out of hand at first, but once his emotions subside he will be able to objectively analyze all the little clues that he doesn't know he has, and the pieces will fall into place.

[alwaysme]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I do think that at some point Snape will tell Harry something. As it stands right now, Snape still has to remain undercover. That link between Harry and LV is still there. Any information that Harry recieves could be a liablility, if LV re opens the link. I think Snape wants to tell Harry. From the escape scene, he came very close (I think) to telling him what really was going on. That scene proves (to me at least) that Snape does have feelings, that run very deep. He has become so adapt at covering them up, it appears on the surface that he doesn't have any. The way I see it, Snapes 'character' is a well rehearsed act. Granted there apparently isn't much of a personality behind it, but I think that to a degree, this is part of the act as well. Once LV is gone, there will be no reason to continue the charade, and the truth (at least some of it) will come out. As Snape is the only one left with who can tell him certain parts of it. I'm sure that Harry will dismiss it out of hand at first, but once his emotions subside he will be able to objectively analyze all the little clues that he doesn't know he has, and the pieces will fall into place.

I think Snape came close to telling Harry the truth too. I wonder how Snape will tell Harry the truth,it is very dangerous right now but I think you make a good point about after Voldemort is gone. Will Snape breakdown and his emotions flood out? That would be interesting and the complete opposite of what we see of him. You know how they say it is unhealthy to keep your feelings in.

[touchstone]

I think it would be fun if both Snape and Harry realize at the same time that the Dursley's are in danger, and that that is where they meet up---if Harry were to over hear a conversation between Snape and Petunia, and discover some really interesting facts that way. I do think it was Snape and Lily that Petunia over heard when she heard about the Dementors, so, she at least would know who Snape is already.

[silver ink pot]

I'm posting this here just for information sake, and so people can comment if they want to. Mods please remove it if I'm out of line, but I just want to be sure people see this, as Inkwolf obviously put a great deal of thought into it:

"Apology from the Last Sevage"
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread....08#post4136108

[Inkwolf]

Ack, bad timing for me to come here to post.

i was thinking oday about the end of PoA, and how Snape went completely raving mad at the end....and suddenly I wondered...

What if Snape DID regain consciousness for a while--maybe just long enough to know they were telling the truth? And he faked being still knocked out. And maybe, like, Sirius conked him out again on the roof of the tunnel on the way out.

If so, and if Snape KNEW the truth, and communicated it by legilimency with Dumbledore in the middle of a faked tantrum--that would explain Dumbledore's amused expression.

I always thought that seemed like a weird scene for Dumbledore to be amused by.

'Kay, I'm probably psycho. None of my ideas I had this morning seem nearly so brilliant as they did then.

[baliset]

Thank you everyone for success of this board. I cannot wait to share my ideas wth you you.

[MysticAngel]

Inkwolf *don't laugh* I came very close to that same "theory" regarding Snape's uber-tantrum at the end of PoA. After all, with the almost certainty that Voldemort would be making a comeback, I think Snape knew he would be called for duty (though there is as yet no canon to support that Dumbledore would have shared Trelawney's PoA prophecy, the events at the end of PS/SS were still leading to Voldemort trying to come back)... Therefore, he would have needed the mental scenes that would establish him as a "still loyal follower forced to suffer Dumbledore and his gaggle of goody-two-shoes" - and, erm, faking rage while refuting claims that one Animagus Death Eater actually exists, is among the best things to get you started .

That's not to say all his rage was fake--the man still had a bone to pick with Sirius, after all; especially if he'd been awake up to the point where Sirius was liberally letting Snape's head scrape against the ceiling. Then again, considering how very alert he is when he 'comes to', it's possible he'd been awake all through the 'tunnel ride'...

[cruplover]

Well Inkwolf and MysticAngel, that's a thought that hadn't crossed my narrow little mind. I had however, thought that Dumbledore's glee/amusement over Snape's hissy fit seemed odd, and this would help it make sense, or at least, make SOME sense!

As for Snape and Harry, what I want and what I think might happen in book 7 aren't necessarily a match. I think that Snape has made such a habit of guarding his inner secrets that letting go won't happen. Fits of rage are one thing, but sharing his heart (which was taken off his sleeve long ago) with Harry just isn't something I can see. I do want Harry to realize that Snape was/is loyal to Dumbledore, and that he's been very wrong about Snape on many accounts, and I do figure that will come into play in some fashion that only JKR can imagine.

I like the Fawkes idea, but I also can see Snape and Harry tripping over each other along the way. Maybe at #12, or maybe in a Dursley rescue, or maybe at Hagrid's Hut or in the Forbidden Forest. I don't know. Harry isn't going to swallow that bitter pill easily, so there might be room for several of these ideas to see ink in book 7.

[Inkwolf]

Welcome, Baliset!

Originally Posted by MysticAngel

Inkwolf Then again, considering how very alert he is when he 'comes to', it's possible he'd been awake all through the 'tunnel ride'...

True, but I have trouble believing he would have the nerve to just LIE there when the Dementors were closing in...unless his own way of repelling dementors is to play dead. Not to mention Lupin's transformation...I will have to reread the end of PoA with this idea in mind...

[MysticAngel]

His 'playing dead' during Lupin's transformation can be explained by the Shrieking Shack trauma from back then - it seems like something that's still quite raw for him. Particularly since he'd just been under the Invisibility Cloak, overhearing Sirius being so dismissive of the incident [again].

The Dementors--weren't they closing in by the lake? That has to be a couple of dozen yards from the Whomping Willow; by the time he'd have made sure Ron and Hermione were alright and Lupin-free, I'm guessing it would have been too late. And I don't think he was playing dead at that point--he was conjuring a stretcher for Ron, and most likely making sure he wasn't infected (or rabid ).

Though at the same time, that does raise the question {again} of how Snape fights Dementors (I went on hiatus last time we were discussing this, so I don't know if/how it may have been resolved) -- if his strength is in Occluding rather than casting Patronus (Harry stated while wrestling with his DADA essay that Snape says [alternative he taught in DADA] is better than the Patronus charm), then I don't know how he could have been of assistance anyhow. Whereas he knew from the Quidditch match that Harry was proficient with conjuring a Patronus--and isn't that a backhanded compliment if I ever saw one: he'd seen Harry conjure a full-grown Patronus during Quidditch; and Hermione says that, while Snape was getting Sirius and Harry on their stretchers, he told her it took a very powerful wizard to conjure a Patronus!

[amyschex]

Okay, first, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

There are others lke me!

(I am a newbie, so please have patience with me. Although I have been on the net since it became mainstream (I am 29 years, young.), I am relatively new to this.)

I have often believed that Snape is inherently good. I believe he is an amazing character. Rarely do you find such complexity in a character. I only wish I knew more of what makes him tick. Our emotions truly drive us, no matter how hard our intent to override them, and I believe Snape's conflict involves his battle of his emotions. He is very obscure, this is true. But, deep within, I see a wounded man.

By the way,

I am the only HP fan I know. This is heaven.

I also note that you all are far more informed on this subject than I. However, I only know my gut instinct. In my heart, I trust Snape.

What I have yet to get to is this-

(and I am only on my second reading of HBP)

Did Snape 'help' Draco because of the unbreakable vow deal. Obviously, at least to me, this seems to be the case. Is he conflicted during the vow making? Seems to me he is. So, does he do this to keep up 'appearences' and if so, does he know Dumbledore will understand for the greater good and all?

I just started my re-read.

[arithmancer]

Hi amyschex!
, and glad that you found us! Enjoy your time on the forums.

This is the Snape thread for you! We all share your gut feeling.

My own feelings about the Unbreakable Vow are that Snape knew Draco's assignment, but had no idea what plans and resources Draco would have available to him to accomplish it. His motive in agreeing to the Vow was to win the trust of Draco's mother and aunt, in hopes that this would allow him to participate in Draco's plan, in order to foil it if necessary. Unfrotunately, Draco was in full 'proving himself to me a man now' mode and was not interested in Snape's help.

Ialso think that Snape did not expect the third clause of the Vow, but did not see a way out of it that would not have raised Bellatrix's suspicions back up to a flame. Based on the following exchange:

HBP "It might be possible...for me to help Draco." She sat up, her face paper-white, her eyes huge. "Severus-oh, Severus-you would help him, would you look after him, see he comes to no harm?"

Right there is what I think he was expecting to swear to: watch over, protect from harm, help. When Narcissa started all that about 'proving necessary' and 'seeming to fail', he realized she was going to ask him to finish the job-and that is when his hand twitched.