The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero

[amyschex]

Completely agree!

I think Snape has his own demons to work through, you know?

We see him in many shades of gray-instead of just black and white. And, honestly, I believe he sees himself this way too. Loyalties aren't always just to causes. I can be loyal to certain people without being loyal to their agendas. I believe this is why, yes, Snape intends to help Draco (and his mother).

[lorna]

Originally Posted by amyschex

I Loyalties aren't always just to causes. I can be loyal to certain people without being loyal to their agendas. I believe this is why, yes, Snape intends to help Draco (and his mother).

Welcome amyschex.

I actually think that is an interesting observation. You could also apply to Snape's relationship with Harry. Snape has next to no use for Harry but he is loyal to DD and Harry benefits from it.


Enjoy the thread.

[amyschex]

I spend the majority of my day cleaning up spills from my 3 and 5 year olds. I just cleaned up a half gallon of milk in my kitchen.

So,

DD??

SOrry, my brain can't function on who/what that is....
ALthough it's probably glaringly obvious.

[MysticAngel]

amyschex, first of all, Welcome to the CoS forums in general, and to the Snape thread in particular. Hopefully you'll enjoy your stay!

Second of all, DD is the abbreviation for Dumbledore... Snape being Dumbledore's man, and Harry's Prophecy-based mission being supported/promoted by Dumbledore, Snape indirectly assists Harry though he may not or doesn't necessarily care for him as a person...

[amyschex]

Okay! Thanks.

and thanks to everyone for being so polite/helpful!

Here's a question (Just wondering...)

Are there people out in CoS that support Voldy?

[Sarapsys]

Welcome to the thread, amyschex!

Regarding the Snape-playing-dead thing, it sounded ridiculous when I first read it, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. And he wouldn't necessarily have to be faking all that rage either, just redirecting it. If I were Snape, I would have been pretty pleased that this guy I detested turned out to be this horrible person that everyone denounced as a murderer. Just imagine how terked he must have been to realize that Sirius was the good guy all along, and didn't deserve all the bad names he had gained for himself!

[arithmancer]

Apologies to Inkwolf, for introducing her least favorite shaving implement into the discussion, but I don't really see what the theory accomplishes. Snape has plenty of other memories from that year to show himself at odds with Dumbledore and/or Harry, without needing to manufacture one.

I don't see any clues in the text suggesting either Legilimency between Snape and Dumbeldore, or Snape not being out cold. (Though, if I am missing them, I would love to see them!)

And the only thing the theory seems to explain is why Dumbledore was amused by Snape's reaction. The thing is, he wasn't. Most of his comments in front of Snape and about him were made 'quietly' or 'calmly', which could be indicative of sympathy, or concern, or, really, almost anything.

The one description I can find where he seems amused is the following, because of the twinkling eyes:

PoA "Well, there you have it, Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be at two places at once, I'm afraid I don;t see any point in troubling them further." Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses.

(Snape storms out without another word, DUbledore quielty states that Snape has suffered a severe disappointment.)

So what's the joke here? I think Dumbledore here is amused at his own cleverness, and Fudge's lack thereof. In my opinion, the statement about Harry being in two places at once is supposed to clue Snape in that Dumbledore sanctioned Harry's rescue of Sirius (by telling him to use Hermione's Time-Turner.) Snape gets it immediately, it is why he is angry, and also why he looks at Fudge and Dumbledore. He is making a choice, whether to explain to Fudge what Dumbledore has told him, or to drop the matter. He chooses the latter despite his fury and disappointment.

I prefer this reading of the events, myself, as more emotionally satisfying than 'he was faking it, in a way' as well. Snape is really angry, at Sirius AND Dumbledore, but makes the right choice. It's a nice foreshadowing of his willingness to shake hands with Sirius at the end of GoF, also for Dumbledore.

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

So what's the joke here? I think Dumbledore here is amused at his own cleverness, and Fudge's lack thereof. In my opinion, the statement about Harry being in two places at once is supposed to clue Snape in that Dumbledore sanctioned Harry's rescue of Sirius (by telling him to use Hermione's Time-Turner.) Snape gets it immediately, it is why he is angry, and also why he looks at Fudge and Dumbledore. He is making a choice, whether to explain to Fudge what Dumbledore has told him, or to drop the matter. He chooses the latter despite his fury and disappointment.

I agree.

One thing I've always found interesting about this chain of events is that we always have Snape threatening to get Harry expelled. It is very interesting that in this instance, when Snape did absolutely have reason to want all of the trio expelled for "attacking a teacher" as Hermione says, Snape claims they'd been confunded. Does anyone think that Snape actually believed they'd been confunded? Or was he covering for the trio in that instance?

[alwaysme]

Originally Posted by HagathaChristie

I agree.

One thing I've always found interesting about this chain of events is that we always have Snape threatening to get Harry expelled. It is very interesting that in this instance, when Snape did absolutely have reason to want all of the trio expelled for "attacking a teacher" as Hermione says, Snape claims they'd been confunded. Does anyone think that Snape actually believed they'd been confunded? Or was he covering for the trio in that instance?

I think Snape was covering for the trio. Snape's main objective was getting revenge on Sirius and rightfully so.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by alwaysme

I think Snape was covering for the trio.

Most definitely! As far as I'm concerned everything Snape has done was to protect Harry, (going back to the very first potions lesson) All of the lessons taught relate to some aspect of what Harry needs to know in order to defeat LV. (or find the HX's for that matter)

Snape's main objective was getting revenge on Sirius and rightfully so.

I agree that revenge was on his mind, but it being rightious? If it was about the prank, yes, but I'm not so sure that was what it was all about. I re read the whole Shrieking shack scene last night, and noticed something. From the first words Snape says after revealing himself, it said to me that his reasons for "being glad that he was the one to find him" was because he still believed him the traitor. During Snapes temper tantrum, he makes a snide comment about Lupin. Harry yells "just because they made a fool of you at school, you won't even listen". Everybody in the room is talking about the prank, yet Snape redirects the topic of his anger to the night James and Lily died. His anger and want for revenge had nothing to do with the prank.

[ignisia]

Exactly, coco. I'm sure Snape is still pretty bugged about the Werewolf Caper, but would it really explain such a huge show of rage? I think not.
And now that Snape-Lily is closed, I think it's possible for us to go into that here... Am I right, Inky?

BTW, a big welcome to amyschex! ^^ Snape is a great character, you'll have a lot of fun on the Hero Thread.

[Inkwolf]

Originally Posted by ignisia

And now that Snape-Lily is closed, I think it's possible for us to go into that here... Am I right, Inky?

Quite right Ignisia. (Braces herself for waves of romance)

[lorna]

Originally Posted by amyschex

I spend the majority of my day cleaning up spills from my 3 and 5 year olds. I just cleaned up a half gallon of milk in my kitchen.

So,

DD??

SOrry, my brain can't function on who/what that is....
ALthough it's probably glaringly obvious.

Note to self....stop using acronyms when it just as easy to type out the name.
sorry amyschex.

As to Snape's comments about the trio being confunded...that was covering as I would think a former death eater who knowledgable's (as events in HBP showed) on the effects of spells, would have a pretty good idea if one was in that condition. The fact nobody challenged Snape's assessment..... "you can't tell if someone is confunded by looking at them" .... indicates to me that it must be possible to tell if one is confunded if one knows what to look for.
That whole "I'll see your expelled" thing always struck me as an empty threat by Snape but in this instance we see him tossing away his one legitmate opprotunity to attempt to get Harry out of Hogwarts.
I'd say there's certainly evidence that Snape was covering for the actions of the trio after the events of the Shrieking Shack.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by Inky

Quite right Ignisia. (Braces herself for waves of romance)

YAY!
Maybe I'll be evil and point Alwaysme and HagathaChristie over here. We'll have Snape/Lily extravaganza!

Actually, it is a good topic to bring up. What does everyone think of Snape and Lily theories? What's your stance on it?

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by HagathaChristie

One thing I've always found interesting about this chain of events is that we always have Snape threatening to get Harry expelled. It is very interesting that in this instance, when Snape did absolutely have reason to want all of the trio expelled for "attacking a teacher" as Hermione says, Snape claims they'd been confunded. Does anyone think that Snape actually believed they'd been confunded? Or was he covering for the trio in that instance?

I think it is possible he believed it, actually. I don't really have a string opinion. From his point of view, the kids' decision to attack him is quite bizarre. Though, if he did not believe it, I am sure he would have said so anyway. I don't think he was trying to get anyone expelled.

OK, ignisia, if you insist on a lovefest...

I was never a fan of the theory. However, after reading HBP I am fairly convinced it is coming, and after much effort, have convinced myself that I don't really mind all that much.

So, Snape/Lily as I see it:

In 6th year, it became clear Snape and Lily were the undisputed stars of NEWT Potions. Lily, nice person that she was, decided to overlook the previous year's insult, and began talking Potions with him. Snape, being the sort of guy who recognizes a debt of honor (see James for example) was not nearly as rude to Lily as he might have been, and they became study buddies. Since she was funny, beautiful, kind, and bright, naturally, he fell in love.

The Prank happened, and Lily revised her views of James. SNape never declared himself to her, and they grew apart. He probably convinced himself he hated the both of them, James and Lily. He finished school, became a Death Eater like his only friends, overheard the prophecy, and then realized it was about Harry Potter. It forced him to recognize that, in fact, he still cared enough about Lily that he could not stand to be the cause of her death. So he went to Dumbledore to warn him, and became a spy. The rest is canon.

My details are probably wrong, but the heavy emphasis on Lily and Potions has me convinced the relationship, such as it was, was in NEWT years and not before. The important things the theory explains to me is that this is why Dumbledore trusted Snape-he knew about his feelings for Lily. It is why he would not tell Harry-Snape told him in confidence. It is why Snape has such an odd relationship with Harry: he seems to hate him, yet can be seen to make an effort to protect him and teach him, on various occasions in the books. This is because Harry's exsitence remonds him that James won Lily, and not him, yet at the same time Harry is Lily's son.

[Sarapsys]

Originally Posted by lorna

That whole "I'll see your expelled" thing always struck me as an empty threat by Snape but in this instance we see him tossing away his one legitmate opprotunity to attempt to get Harry out of Hogwarts.

That's not his only legitimate chance--I think he could easily have gotten Harry expelled after the Sectrumsempra incident if he had pulled the right strings.

In regards to Snape/Lily, I think it's likely that she would have been a lot nicer to him that most of the students, and that that coupled with the fact that she seems to have had the same creative brilliance that he did, thus inspiring respect, could easily have combined to cook up a strong infatuation in any teenage boy, with Snape as no exception. I do not think the feeling was mutual and I don't think he ever would have screwed up the courage to be explicit about it or approach her on the subject. However, Snape is a very intense person. He seems to be very passionate and emotional, but he regards these things as weaknesses and quashes them down. I think I said something to this effect in the Snape/Lily thread before it shut down, but I can easily imagine Snape brooding over this crush until it developed into a repressed obsession. I can totally see Severus as the creepy stalker kid.

[Inkwolf]

Originally Posted by zgirnius

I was never a fan of the theory. However, after reading HBP I am fairly convinced it is coming, and after much effort, have convinced myself that I don't really mind all that much.

Me, too! I think they were friends to a degree, studied together, and maybe Snape developed a love for Lily that I'm afraid was never expressed or returned. Lily was completely unaware of it, developing an embarassing crush on bad-boy James Potter. The SWM scene drove the friendship further apart, since Lily would expect an apology, and Snape was too stiff-necked to make one, and the next thing he knew, Lily was waltzing off with James.

[hwyla]

Well - I'm NOT for romance, not even unrequited. But that's because I think there are clues for him to be the reason info about teachers' marriages is 'restricted' according to JKR. And I feel Florence is an clue that needs to be worked in somewhere.

Instead I think they were friends.

I think SWM was his worst memory because James basically said Snape had no right to even exist and the crowd laughed. No one spoke up for him except Lily. And then he stupidly called her Mudblood because (I think) there were Slytherin purebloods in the crowd.

I think for him that was the best he could do with a horrid situation. It would bad for any teenaged boy's pride to be rescued by a girl. His roommates are going to rag on him. Now imagine that boy as a halfblood among the purebloods in Slytherin in the 4th or 5th year of a war that's aupposedly 'about' pureblood supremacy. And Lily rescues him.

She's not just ANY muggle-born. She's a very SMART muggle-born. She eventually becomes Head-Girl. She's probably the bane of the purebloodist boys' existence. I'm sure their parents are just as hard on them IF Lily beat their grades - just like Lucius was angry with Draco for letting Hermione beat him. And they are in the middle of the OWL tests. VERY high stress.

No, of all the possible 'girls' who COULD have come to Snape's rescue, Lily is probably THE one his dormmates are going to beat him to a pulp over that night. 'Mudblood' is probably his only way to save himself.

I agree that they probably became study buddies in 6th year. There are just TOO many juxtapositioning clues throughout the series that place Snape, Slugs(Slughorn) and Lily close together. And even a few interupted conversations clues.

But I see the Werewolf 'Prank' as where it all goes wrong. I think the Marauders let slip that James saved Snape's life - perhaps intentionally or perhaps not. But I believe Lily found out that James saved his hated enemy's life. Wow - suddenly he looks 'noble'. BUT he refuses to tell her HOW. After all, he really CAN'T tell her without revealing Remus is a werewolf. James can hardly let that slip when Snape's been sworn to secrecy. So, now - he's not just 'noble', but FINALLY he's 'modest'!

So, they begin dating after that. Snape must be wondering what happened to his smart friend. Did she loose her mind? Befuddled? Confounded? Love Potion? He's telling her James is the same as he always was. And she marks it up as jealousy. He keeps telling her - all through 7th year. But she sides with James.

Once Hogwarts is finished, Snape doesn't see much of Lily. Their friendship has fallen apart. But he still remembers her with great fondness. I think this is where that Movie3 foreshadowing comes in (I think). Lily could see the good in anyone.

And I think that especially once Snape became a DE it was important to him that Lily still remembered him as 'good'.

Enter the irony - Snape's HeartOnSleeve speech from occlumency lessons. I think Voldy realized EARLY that Snape valued Lily - not that he was 'in love' but that he would do what he could to protect her. And so, a few months after he assigned Snape the task of spying on Albus (and Snape was not having great success), I think that just like Voldy threatened the people Draco loved and wanted to protect (parents), he threatened Snape with harm to Lily if he didn't start 'producing' results.

I'm still undecided exactly WHEN this threat was made. I lean toward pre-prophecy - mostly because it would be incredibly ironic for Snape to run to Voldy with the prophecy that would ruin Lily's family because he was trying to protect her.

But either way, I think it's why Voldie offered Lily the chance to live. NOT to reward Snape, but because he wanted to continue to use this threat. But her refusal stymies Voldy. WHY would she choose to die? He cannot see how her death would protect her baby - no one could predict that. So she's going to die for NO reason (in Voldy's eyes). He never expected THAT. And yet, he cannot allow her to continue to live after she has refused the offer. In Voldy's mind, he'll just have to find some other way to manipulate Snape.

I think it's only in retrospect that Voldy realizes that Snape's loyalty has now probably been eradicated. In actuality, it was lost earlier - but I think this is where Voldy decided to 'believe' Snape 'had left him forever' - hence he doesn't contact Snape in bk1

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by ignisia

YAY!
Maybe I'll be evil and point Alwaysme and HagathaChristie over here. We'll have Snape/Lily extravaganza!

I'm here and fully prepared to toss enough sparkling love confetti in the air to bury us all.

Originally Posted by ignisia

Actually, it is a good topic to bring up. What does everyone think of Snape and Lily theories? What's your stance on it?

In my opinion, there are definitely clues pointing to A Snape/Lily connection. At the present time, I personally am very much leaning more toward the relationship being mutually romantic, though I do realize that places me in a very small minority group. I've nothing concrete on which to base this idea, of course, but it is my impression that the "beauty & the beast" couples we see at the end of HBP could be prepping us for something more along those lines.

Originally Posted by coco1965

From the first words Snape says after revealing himself, it said to me that his reasons for "being glad that he was the one to find him" was because he still believed him the traitor. During Snapes temper tantrum, he makes a snide comment about Lupin. Harry yells "just because they made a fool of you at school, you won't even listen". Everybody in the room is talking about the prank, yet Snape redirects the topic of his anger to the night James and Lily died. His anger and want for revenge had nothing to do with the prank.

Oh I absolutely agree that Snape's nearly uncontrollable anger in the Shrieking Shack was based on his belief that Sirius was the secretkeeper.

By the way, it's nice to see you in this thread, coco!

[matais423]

This is my first post on this site, haven't read through the entire 52 page thread yet, but wanted to post my thoughts and questions on Snape as it relates to DD's death, as I see this as one of the most important actions that he can be judged on.

I've read threads with theories on how the avada kedavra spell was used by Snape on DD. I don't necessarily buy into these theories but want to use this one to make a point about Snape’s disposition at that moment of DD’s death. The particular theory that I am speaking about is the possibility that Snape may have used a non-verbal spell like expeliarmus when speaking avada-kedavra. If this theory is proven to be true, then that would mean that Snape is not evil, instead it shows that he is good, and we can understand why DD trusted him. I know that it would mean that DD is not really dead, but that is a whole other debate.

So let’s assume now that he really did kill DD. If he did, then he had to mean it! Just look into what happened in book 5. Bellatrix said to Harry: "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. "You need to mean them Potter! You need to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it -- righteous anger won't hurt me for long -- I'll show you how it is done, shall I? I'll give you a lesson --" (OP36).

Again, Snape had to mean it, which would definitely make him evil. And if he’s good, then the avada kedavra spell had to be fake (non-verbal).