The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero

[Inkwolf]

Hello, Matais, and welcome!

That was similar to my theory, before JKR confimed that Dumbledore is dead. Now I wander alone and lost in the wilderness, without any particular theory of exactly how the tower happened. Wondering, if he's dead, what all the bizarre clues and discrepancies meant. I've elected to wait for Book 7 to answer that puzzle for me.

But I do believe that Dumbledore intended for Snape to kill him, or to at least appear to do so...and the unexpected arrival of the DE's forced them to push up the schedule.

[Sarapsys]

I don't think Snape AKing Dumbledore necessarily has to mean he's evil, but I think you've hit the main snag, matais. How could Severus have done the AK curse if he didn't mean it?

I think it all has to do with how you define 'meaning' it. Do you have to 'mean' it in the sense of specifically wanting them to be dead, specifically wanting to kill them yourself, or what? Does it have to be personal?

I submit that it needn't be. For instance, when Pettigrew kills Cedric, it's not bc he harbors any bad feelings toward him or necessarily wants him dead. He kills him because Voldemort told him to. It was on orders. I don't see why Severus couldn't have killed Dumbledore because he was on orders from Dumbledore to do so. Snape is a powerful wizard, and he is a master of compartmentalizing his personal feelings. I think him completely capable of suppressing any emotion that may have interfered with the spell.

[matais423]

Some facts to consider:

BC Jr. stated in Book 4 that it takes a powerful amount of pure hatred to be effective.

I don't think that hatred has to be for the individual that the spell is being directed to, rather that that energy is placed into the spell.

If you look at every known instance of AK, it has only been performed by death eaters and Voldemort himself. Though BC Sr. had authorized it's use by aurors for the purpose of killing death eaters, we have no specific case of that type of use.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
"Severus… please…"
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
"Avada Kedavra!"

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by ignisia

And now that Snape-Lily is closed, I think it's possible for us to go into that here... Am I right, Inky?

Good grief another Snape thread is closed? (Disaparates for a moment) So it is, and even locked so I can't see what happened after I was there at around 5 a.m. Wednesday.

I would have liked for Severus and Lily to be friends, perhaps study buddies. He might even have been enough of a potions genius for his lackluster background to be overlooked by Sluggie and be in the Slug Club. I definitely don't like the obsessive love that was mentioned. Surely Dumbles wouldn't put any trust in a stalker, would he? No, I think not.

[hwyla]

Matais - I do not believe it was the AK that killed Albus. I think Snape put everything he had into that AK and it didn't work. Instead the force of it was so strong it knocked Albus off the tower where he died from the fall. In this way Snape DOES kill Albus, but he not only didn't want to do so, he did not want Albus to die.

There are several reasons I believe this:

1) Most importantly, JKR signals exactly when Harry is released from the Petrificus, by telling us that Harry realized he was no longer held by the spell but by shock. This does NOT happen at the moment the AK hits Albus. It is not until the last DE is running out of the tower door. Plenty of time for Albus to hit the ground.

2) You can also tell that Harry was still under the Petrificus after Albus was hit by the AK because Harry 'screams' but no sound comes out, not he would have screamed if he had not been so shocked - but actually 'screams' but no sound comes out.

3) The trickle of blood from Albus' mouth when Harry sees him on the ground. This doesn't come from an AK. You don't bleed from AKs. Notice Albus is on his back - for blood to trickle out of his mouth it must go against the flow of gravity. That cannot happen unless the heart is pumping. One can seep bleed and blood can pool after death, but you need a pump for it to flow UPWARD against gravity.

[lorna]

Originally Posted by Inkwolf

Hello, Matais, and welcome!

That was similar to my theory, before JKR confimed that Dumbledore is dead. Now I wander alone and lost in the wilderness, without any particular theory of exactly how the tower happened. Wondering, if he's dead, what all the bizarre clues and discrepancies meant. I've elected to wait for Book 7 to answer that puzzle for me.

But I do believe that Dumbledore intended for Snape to kill him, or to at least appear to do so...and the unexpected arrival of the DE's forced them to push up the schedule.

My theory is simply that Snape walked onto that tower and found he had to make a choice out of several bad ones and make it quickly. Like many soldiers in any war.
I like to ask myself how exactly Snape could have gotten Dumbledore, Draco and himself off that tower intact. I think that's important because from Dumbledore's perspective that's what I believe he would have wanted. The character I've read about over six books certainly wouldn't be wanting either one of his student's or one of his teacher's dying to save him. I don't think he was suicidial but I do think Dumbledore was realistic
and he has fought wars before (Grindewald I believe)

There are four death eaters,( and no duel in any of the books indicates to me there's some submachine gun spell that takes out more than a couple of wizards at a time) there's that pesky Vow. (what is the timeline on the thing anyway) Snape's choices are few and none of them stand much of a chance of getting everyone out alive.

I don't know if Snape and Dumbledore had some grand plan...they may well have, Dumbledore didn't seem to fly by the seat of his pants. But that tower scene, for me, was as much about a no win situation as it was anything else. And I think Snape made the choice Dumbledore wanted. And maybe Snape's hating the situation where he is forced to kill Dumbledore is enough hate to get the job done.

Or maybe Hwyla's got it right. It's kind of interesting that the Avada that killed Dumbledore was the only one I've read about that caused the victim to go airborne. Cedric, James and Lily I believe all just dropped when they were killed.

[matais423]

I believe DD did know about the vow. When Harry told DD about Snape helping Draco, he told Harry that there was no significance to it. It was as though he already knew what was going on. If his death was staged, or if at least the AK spell was staged, then I think that you have to rationalize that Snape is still fighting for the OoP. Did the rest of the OoP know about the DD/Snape plan before it happened? How do they play out Snape as the enemy of the OoP. My take was that Voldemort thought snape was a spy for him, and DD thought he was a spy for the OoP?? I also believe that if this was staged, that the DEs arrival was not so unexpected, they had to know with Snape being a DE/spy and with the aurors already there.

[arithmancer]

Dumbledore and Snape expected that Draco was trying to kill Dumbledore, but in my opinion, did not know the when and how. In particular, when Dumbledore tells Draco he did not believe Death Eaters could be gotten into the school, I think he was stating the simple truth.

[Sarapsys]

Originally Posted by matais423

I don't think that hatred has to be for the individual that the spell is being directed to, rather that that energy is placed into the spell.

I agree completely!

Anyhoos, even if Severus didn't actually AK Dumbledore, he did chuck him off a tower, which is also a very effective way to kill someone.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by hwyla

But I see the Werewolf 'Prank' as where it all goes wrong. I think the Marauders let slip that James saved Snape's life - perhaps intentionally or perhaps not. But I believe Lily found out that James saved his hated enemy's life. Wow - suddenly he looks 'noble'. BUT he refuses to tell her HOW. After all, he really CAN'T tell her without revealing Remus is a werewolf. James can hardly let that slip when Snape's been sworn to secrecy. So, now - he's not just 'noble', but FINALLY he's 'modest'!

This I like!! This sounds to me like a very plausable senario, which would cause Lily to take a second look at James.

Originally Posted by Hagatha Christie

At the present time, I personally am very much leaning more toward the relationship being mutually romantic, though I do realize that places me in a very small minority group. I've nothing concrete on which to base this idea, of course, but it is my impression that the "beauty & the beast" couples we see at the end of HBP could be prepping us for something more along those lines.

I'm of the even smaller group that feel that there was a childhood friendship. The way I see it, the laughing girl memory, and the aweful boy comment, were from an earlier timeframe than 6th year. I see a friendship developing before Hogwarts partly because there would have been no preconcieved prejudices that come from the sorting. Lily would have known Snapes true personality.This would have been dampered because of being placed in Slytherin, and Lily being muggleborn. It would also have been very difficult to remain friends (this is where muffliato comes into play) due to peer pressure. I do think that Snapes feelings did turn to love, but for Lily, she grew up, and the frienship became just a happy memory from her past. It did however cause her to come to Snapes rescue. The nasty comment made, hurt and shocked her, and was what caused her to to realize, that it could never be the same as it was when they were kids. I'm sure that if he appologized, Lily would have accepted it. (not neccessarily forgot though) I do think that they remained 'friendly' to each other in class, (indifferent in public) and collaberated in Newt potions though.

By the way, it's nice to see you in this thread, coco!

Thanks!!

[amyschex]

I don't know how to do the quotesy thingee yet (but I'll try)...

I completely agree with the idea that...

Originally Posted by matais423
I don't think that hatred has to be for the individual that the spell is being directed to, rather that that energy is placed into the spell.

and

I think it all has to do with how you define 'meaning' it. Do you have to 'mean' it in the sense of specifically wanting them to be dead, specifically wanting to kill them yourself, or what? Does it have to be personal?

because I believe you have to want the 'spell' to work, and that's sufficient. Snape doesn't have to want DD dead, he just has to want things to appear as DD intends. Although I still don't get the whole thing about 'Did DD want Snape to kill him'

Now, also on LILY/SNAPE

(While I would love to think of Snape in romantic terms myself ...)

I think he did have feelings for her, but they went unreturned. If anything she probably felt some affection twords him, but in a platonic way. As for:

However, Snape is a very intense person. He seems to be very passionate and emotional, but he regards these things as weaknesses and quashes them down.

I think Snape is too wise for that...I think he actually realizes the power in passion/emotions and it's because of this that he compartmentalizes his emotions.

I think I said something to this effect in the Snape/Lily thread before it shut down, but I can easily imagine Snape brooding over this crush until it developed into a repressed obsession

Possible, brooding, yes, but the brooding is where I can imagine him realizing this is a weakness. I think it's about control. You must control your emotions so they do not control you. I believe he says something like this to HArry at some point. ( I don't imagine him as the stalker type-seems a bit weak for him. )

Finally, this is a different question-
In, HBP, Snape says to Bellatrix (in Spinner's End during his 'interegation')
"...I have somehow hood winked him? Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?"

How does he accomplish this? Cause it's true-LV is an accomplished Legilimens. Is it that Snape is greater at this than LV? Is Snape for more powerful than is believed?
(Now I go off to daydream of the romantic side of Snape... )

[Sarapsys]

The childhood friendship idea is interesting, but here's my thing: if not at Hogwarts, where would they have met? Lily lived with Muggles, but Snape was (presumably) part of the wizarding community. There doesn't seem to be much sociallizing between the two worlds. Unless they lived in the same town (possible, granted) I don't see how they ever would have come into contact with one another.

[lolli]

[quote=Inkwolf;4136708]Welcome, Baliset!



True, but I have trouble believing he would have the nerve to just LIE there when the Dementors were closing in...unless his own way of repelling dementors is to play dead. QUOTE]


call me insane, but that seems to make sense....With Snape being such a great Occlumency guy, what if he can repel Dementors simply by making them feel that he does not feel?
What if he can be totally ignored by dementors when he plays dead? ...
sorry for offtopic...

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by Sarapsys

The childhood friendship idea is interesting, but here's my thing: if not at Hogwarts, where would they have met? Lily lived with Muggles, but Snape was (presumably) part of the wizarding community. There doesn't seem to be much sociallizing between the two worlds. Unless they lived in the same town (possible, granted) I don't see how they ever would have come into contact with one another.

Seeing as though Snape was half muggle, we don't know if he was home schooled in the way of wizards, or if he went to public school like muggles. If he went to public school, they could have been in the same class. Kids tell secrets. I could see them creating a bond, around magic (especially if Lily showed signs before getting her letter)

[sweet16]

Originally Posted by coco1965

Seeing as though Snape was half muggle, we don't know if he was home schooled in the way of wizards, or if he went to public school like muggles. If he went to public school, they could have been in the same class. Kids tell secrets. I could see them creating a bond, around magic (especially if Lily showed signs before getting her letter)

The way i see it is that snape and lily may have gone to the same primary school, but they obviously both went to hogwarts together. I think that they met when they went to primary. Hmm, i wonder if they went to the same primary as harry did? ( funny thought, i know!) But can you imagine if they went to the same place, and snape did something at primary that made lily hate him soo much at hogwarts! that would be funny!

[hwyla]

While, I'm not a big supporter of the childhood friendship (I think it unlikely just based on the odds), I do think there is evidence that Snape grew up influenced somewhat by his muggle heritage. I suspect he did go to muggle schools and the like. He uses muggle words and terms - even so far as to use 'dream team' in 1992 - which would have been just after the summer olympics, when the term was really first so heavily used.

He lives part-time in a muggle area, that might look wholly deserted at night, but had evidence of daytime activity (food wrappers in the street). He's living among them.

So, even if he was raised in a mostly wizard environment - he seems to be wholly comfortable in a muggle environment. So, I think he had a lot of muggle exposure as a child. So, I won't say childhood friendship is impossible. I just didn't feel that Lily really knew him that well in SWM.

(Altho' -tin foil hat theory - I'm still waiting to find out his childhood somewhat mirrored Harry's - with the difference that he was taken in by wizards who hated muggles instead of muggles who hated wizards.)

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by coco1965

I'm of the even smaller group that feel that there was a childhood friendship. The way I see it, the laughing girl memory, and the aweful boy comment, were from an earlier timeframe than 6th year. I see a friendship developing before Hogwarts partly because there would have been no preconcieved prejudices that come from the sorting. Lily would have known Snapes true personality.This would have been dampered because of being placed in Slytherin, and Lily being muggleborn. It would also have been very difficult to remain friends (this is where muffliato comes into play) due to peer pressure.

Oh I belong to that group as well, coco. I think they may have lived near one another and were childhood friends. I think they were then placed in separate houses at Hogwart's and that Ron and Harry bonding on the train and almost being placed into separate houses gave us a peek at what a challenge that might have been to retain a friendship under those circumstances.

I also think that the Harry/Draco enmity has been compared to the James/Snape enmity by Dumbledore. We see Draco really botch it with Harry by offending Ron. I like the idea that James could have gotten off on the wrong foot with Lily for the same reason -- insulting Severus.

I think it would have been a friendship riddled (pun intended) with problems because of the separate house issues, and also a friendship that goes through that awkward phase (as with Ron/Hermione) when they both realized it was more than friendship.

Of course, I've very little canon and most of my speculations are based on JKR's potential to use mirroring relationships when filling in the backstory of Snape and Lily.

[amyschex]

Having been a school teacher myself, I can only 'smirk' when I think of what it must have been like to have had Lily, Snape, or Harry in your student body.

Not that I really believe/don't believe they went to school together.
I just think it's funny to imagine teaching these oddly magical students when you yourself are a muggle.

That would drive me nuts!

Considering though that JKR states that Hogwart's has about a 'thousand' students, odds are that some of these kids went to school together before Hogwarts.

And, she also has stated that many of these magical kids were homeschooled. We're homeschoolers.
Never encountered any wizards yet.

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by Hagatha Christie

I also think that the Harry/Draco enmity has been compared to the James/Snape enmity by Dumbledore. We see Draco really botch it with Harry by offending Ron. I like the idea that James could have gotten off on the wrong foot with Lily for the same reason -- insulting Severus.

I think it would have been a friendship riddled (pun intended) with problems because of the separate house issues, and also a friendship that goes through that awkward phase (as with Ron/Hermione) when they both realized it was more than friendship.

With you 100% on this!

Of course, I've very little canon and most of my speculations are based on JKR's potential to use mirroring relationships when filling in the backstory of Snape and Lily.

Exactly! This is why it is so much fun speculating on these two. There IS no evidence, so anything is possible!

[hwyla]

JKR has admitted that her math wasn't too good on that number - it seems that when she's asked a math question in interview and the answer is something she had not sat down and figured out before, she just kind of 'guesses'. For instance, she's also said there must be about 3000 witches and wizards in Britain's wizarding world. Kind of unlikely that fully 1/3 of the population is 'at' school at the moment. Probably, both numbers are wrong in this case.

I trust her on the math for things she has probably figured out in advance (dates, ages - exception, she made a mistake on Charlie's age, but then he's not an important character)

THAT said - I do think it entirely possible that there was a higher quantity of students at the time of the Marauders than there is for Harry's year. Since there wasn't a war going on when THEY were born. I also suspect that the younger years who are at school with Harry probably have larger classes, since they would be born after VoldyWar1 was finished.

Anyway, I pretty much doubt that Hogwarts had 1000 students when Lily And Snape were students, but agree that it might be possible IF the wizarding world was truly decimated in the first war. Killing off, say more than half the population? Possible, since it was a war AMONG the citizens.