The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by Sarapsys

I can't recall that we ever see Severus explode in a non-Harry related situation. Is it possible that he may resent Harry even more since he seems to have this ability to make him lose his cherished self-control?

Well, we don't know if he doesn't explode away from Harry. We aren't privy to things that Harry doesn't know about.

[clkginny]

Well, I don't think it is fair to attribute his shrieking shack explosion to Harry. I don't think it is fair to attribute his 12 Grimmauld Place explosion to Harry, either. (Although a valid point could be made about the fact that Harry witnessed both of these) The only one I can contribute to Harry would be the pensieve dive.

[arithmancer]

Snape has another CAPSLOCK moment in "The Flight of the Prince". There is certainly a lot going on there for Snape, but Harry does appear to be the proximate cause of that explosion as well.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by ignisia

Well, we don't know if he doesn't explode away from Harry. We aren't privy to things that Harry doesn't know about.

That's what I was thinking. As JKR says, Harry IS the whole story after all.

However, there are times when Harry is somewhat "frozen" and is only an observer. For instance, the "pajama party" on the stairs in GoF, when Snape tells Filch he "doesn't give a damn about Peeves" because someone has been searching his Office.

From GoF, Chapter 25, "The Egg and the Eye":

Moody asks who would want to break into Snape's Office.

Harry notices "a vein flickering horribly on Snape's greasy temple."

Moody says, ". . . not hiding anything else in your office, are you?"

Then "Snape's sallow face turn(ed) a nasty brick color, the vein in his temple pulsing more rapidly."

Then Fake Moody smiles and says "Auror's Privilege."

"Dumbledore happens to trust me," said Snape through clenched teeth. "I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!"

Moody mentions "spots that never come off."

"Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm convulsively with his right hand, as though something had hurt him."

Moody laughs, and tells Snape: "Get back to bed."

"You don't have the authority to send me anywhere! Snape hissed, letting go of his arm as though angry with himself. "I have as much right to prowl this school after dark as you do."

Then there is the whole thing with Snape realizing Harry is there with the Map and the Egg, and Snape only calms down when Moody seems to imply that Snape wants to do Harry harm.

At any rate, I think it's brilliant the way we see that whole scene through Harry's eyes, while he is standing still on the stairs. He's close enough to notice Snape's vein throbbing, though Harry clearly sees him as unattractive when upset.

But I think the first part of that scene has more to do with Fake Moody and nasty, unfounded accusations than with Harry.

[severa78]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

That's what I was thinking. As JKR says, Harry IS the whole story after all.


But I think the first part of that scene has more to do with Fake Moody and nasty, unfounded accusations than with Harry.

Sure, but remember that Snape is suspecting Harry of breaking into his office at that point, even before he realizes Harry's there (he surely thinks back to CoS).
So it's possible that he gets incensed all the more because he gets nasty accusations in front of the person he thinks should be accused (AND with the manifest intention of helping that person out)

So I'm not sure it shouldn't count as an "Harry-means-trouble-for-me" sort of moment

[Badgers_Rule]

Severous Snape is trusted by Dumbledore because he has a double life debt with Harry, first James saves his life then Snape gives Voldy the info to kill James. With this they made a plan for Snape to be a double agent. Thinking Harry and Voldy would be connected, they made Snape act like he hates Harry from the get go, and keep this up through the series. Remember at the end of book six he saved Harry from the Death Eater and had the death eater go ahead then he basically told Harry to learn Legilimency and occlumency. I believe snape will give his life at the end to save Harry so Harry can beat Voldemort. In other words Snape will be a true hero in the end

[Sarapsys]

Originally Posted by clkginny

Well, I don't think it is fair to attribute his shrieking shack explosion to Harry. I don't think it is fair to attribute his 12 Grimmauld Place explosion to Harry, either. (Although a valid point could be made about the fact that Harry witnessed both of these) The only one I can contribute to Harry would be the pensieve dive.

Ok then, good point. I edit my theory to include the Marauders as Exploding!Snape triggers
Explosions I was thinking of other than the Pensieve were the one in Flight of the Prince and when he finds out that Sirius has escaped and (correctly) blames Harry. The SS and GP ones can be attributed pretty fairly to Sirius.
I don't really think of the Pajama Party as an explosion. It's obvious that he's terked, but he's also trying very hard to clamp down on his anger. He turns colors and his veins throb a bit, but he doesn't start shrieking at people and spitting all over the place like he does in his other explosive episodes.

[Inkwolf]

Originally Posted by Sarapsys

It's obvious that he's terked, but he's also trying very hard to clamp down on his anger. He turns colors and his veins throb a bit, but he doesn't start shrieking at people and spitting all over the place like he does in his other explosive episodes.

But that's because he's pretty intimidated by Moody--I think that's one thing Harry got dead right.

Hello, Badger, from Wisconsin?

[silver ink pot]

Inkwolf: I agree ~ Fake Moody is pushing all of Snape's buttons, and maybe even scaring him a little.

When Snape flushes brick red, you know he is getting angry, though. He's a pale guy - he's described as "pallid" in one of the books. Here it is in OotP - great alliteration, by the way - kudos to JKR!

OoTP, Chapter 24:

"An ugly flush suffused Snape's pallid face."

That comes after Sirius leans back in his chair, stares at the ceiling, and declares in a "loud" voice that Snape shouldn't give Harry orders because it is his house. One particular reason that might make Snape angry is that Harry has little enough respect for him as a teacher already. When Harry is being called downstairs by Mrs. Weasley, she reminds him to use the word "Professor" before Snape's name, yet Sirius just calls him "Snape." Snape's authority as a teacher isn't being respected there, and he knows it.

[ignisia]

That is interesting. Everyone expects Sirius up be old enough to at least try to be civil. Heck, all Snape did was ask Harry to sit down.
ONG HOW DARE HE ASK HARRY TO SIT DOWN

[Inkwolf]

Originally Posted by ignisia

Awesome!

Let's not start Sirius-bashing in here, though.

[lorna]

Originally Posted by Inkwolf

Awesome!

Let's not start Sirius-bashing in here, though.

Agreed, but I do think the example above shows Sirius, yet again, not getting that there are things more important than one upping your old school enemy.
I've tended to see Sirius as similar to Snape in many instances...neither seem to be able to separate Harry from James...neither of them are particular adult when under stress..
(for god sakes..Harry has to learn something important Snape...this is not the time to be undermining the man, Mr. Black)
And I think the argument could be made that Snape sets Sirius off much as Harry sets Snape off. I'm sure, for example, Sirius didn't walk into that kitchen intending yet another pointless fight with Snape....but that's what we got.
I guess you could say both these guys have "anger management issues".

[ignisia]

Sorry, Inky! I just wanted to put the pic up and thought it would be best if some text came with it, so I wrote down the first thought that came to me.

[Tex]

If anyone on this thread has not yet read and considered Paintball's DIATSSISE theory set out in my signature, they should do so now. To me it is clearly the answer to the mystery of Snape's loyalities and the tower scene. I am very suprised that it is not discussed more often on this forum. My sole goal from now until the release of book 7 is going to be to encourage others to read and consider this theory. Since I don't post that often, my post will not be too repetitive, but I hope everyone on this forum will at least be given the opportunity to read and consider this theory.

[Inkwolf]

Thanks, Tex. I think most of us in this thread have heard Paintball's theory already, but I suppose it doesn;t hurt to let the newbies know.

Originally Posted by lorna

I'm sure, for example, Sirius didn't walk into that kitchen intending yet another pointless fight with Snape....but that's what we got.

Actually, I'm not too sure of that. Remember at one point he said, at least Harry was out there where he could get into a few fights, or something like that? I think Sirius was bored and frustrated, and was looking to stir up trouble....only I think he expected to be more in control of what happened, and lost his cool when Snape gave as good as he got (or better.)

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by ignisia

That is interesting. Everyone expects Sirius up be old enough to at least try to be civil. Heck, all Snape did was ask Harry to sit down.
ONG HOW DARE HE ASK HARRY TO SIT DOWN

Well, I don't think Snape was "ordering" Harry to sit down. When Harry goes into McGonagall's Office, doesn't she say, "Sit down, Potter?"

We aren't bashing, I guess, if we look at it this way: Pretend Sirius isn't there, and Snape says "Sit Down." - I doubt we would think he was being rude. Asking someone to sit down is more polite than leaving them standing there. When Narcissa and Bella arrive at Snape's house, he "gestured Narcissa to the sofa." I believe Snape was being polite.

When Dumbledore goes to the Dursleys, they don't ask him to sit down, and they don't sit down themselves, so he makes a point of forcing them to "sit down" by shoving the couch under their legs. The he sits down, too, and tells Harry to "Please sit down." Then he makes a remark about it being impolite to not offer someone a drink (which reminds me of Snape at Spinner's End, pouring the wine for Narcissa and Bella). At Grimmauld Place, Sirius definitely doesn't offer Snape a drink that night in the kitchen, though when the Weasleys and Harry go there after the snake incident, Sirius offers them all butterbeer. The Dursleys don't want Dumbledore in their house, so they don't offer him anything or ask him to sit down, but when Marge comes to visit, Vernon pours her one brandy after another. So I think the whole "sit down" incident just plays up the dislike between Sirius and Snape.

[hwyla]

Just wanted to say Hi! to Tex - I think you're new to this thread (right?) - so thanks for joining us!

I also wanted to say that while Paintball's theory is possibly ONE way to explain the Tower scene - I think there are others as well that still leave us with a 'good' Snape. I must admit that the main problem I have with the theory is the suggestion that Snape in Spinners End is 'out-of-character' when I find him PERFECTLY 'in'-character there. I see no reason to suspect that it isn't Snape. I see Spinners End as our opportunity to watch Snape the SPY at work - a chance to watch him spin truths to fit his 'story'. To give that to Albus would ruin it for me.

Also, 'I' believe that Snape made that Vow figuring that IF he had to die when he didn't fulfill the Vow, then it would have been worth it IF it meant he could get info on Draco's task in the mean time. After all, by the time the Vow came up Snape had gleaned that it was something Voldy had not been able to accomplish. Snape HAD to figure that it was about killing either Albus or Harry - that was all that was left that it could be.

'I' therefore 'personally' don't believe Paintball's theory because 'for me' it lessens Snape's character. Others may (and apparently DO) feel differently. I think making that Vow showed us the level of commitment Snape held/holds towards defeating Voldy. I was convinced at the end of that chapter that it would be Snape dying in bk6/HBP (hence 'Spinners END'). Needless to say - the real end came as quite a shock. But then, I think JKR laid enough clues to show Snape did it for good reasons.

[HagathaChristie]

Originally Posted by hwyla

Also, 'I' believe that Snape made that Vow figuring that IF he had to die when he didn't fulfill the Vow, then it would have been worth it IF it meant he could get info on Draco's task in the mean time. After all, by the time the Vow came up Snape had gleaned that it was something Voldy had not been able to accomplish. Snape HAD to figure that it was about killing either Albus or Harry - that was all that was left that it could be.

I agree. I believe Snape very much sees it as being part of his job to risk his own life to get valuable information about Voldemort's plans. Whether that information comes from Voldemort himself or as in this instance, from Narcissa, makes little difference as long as he gets the information. In this instance, if he indeed knew nothing of the plan prior to Narcissa's plea, he may view it as evidence of Voldemort's waning trust in him and may feel his days are numbered in any case.

Originally Posted by hwyla

I think making that Vow showed us the level of commitment Snape held/holds towards defeating Voldy. I was convinced at the end of that chapter that it would be Snape dying in bk6/HBP (hence 'Spinners END'). Needless to say - the real end came as quite a shock. But then, I think JKR laid enough clues to show Snape did it for good reasons.

I think that Snape was probably shocked himself to realize, after telling Prof. Dumbledore of the vow, that Dumbledore considered Snape's life and role on behalf of the Order as being more valuable than his own.

[Vigilance]

Originally Posted by HagathaChristie

I agree. I believe Snape very much sees it as being part of his job to risk his own life to get valuable information about Voldemort's plans. Whether that information comes from Voldemort himself or as in this instance, from Narcissa, makes little difference as long as he gets the information. In this instance, if he indeed knew nothing of the plan prior to Narcissa's plea, he may view it as evidence of Voldemort's waning trust in him and may feel his days are numbered in any case.

Absolutely!
Let me say that I don't like the DIATSSISE theory for two reasons:

1. The Snape I saw in Spinner's End is not out of character. It makes sense that he would be polite to his so-called friends in a way that they would understand (mannered, traditional--they believe they are the Wizarding World aristocrats, after all). Just because Harry Potter isn't concealed in the room to describe his hair as "greasy" in third person-limited narration doesn't mean that Snape is out of character.

Further, and somewhat as an aside, Snape's a spy, and a good one, and the title of the chapter makes me think of a spider. That old story about the spider welcoming the flies into his parlor comes forcefully to mind. Snape's being polite doesn't necessarily mean that it's Dumbledore-welcoming-guests-as-always. Spiders in nursery rhymes, etc., are seen as frightening, polite, and toiling. Snape certainly has all of these characteristics in that chapter. I suspect that every time Snape's voice is described as "silky" it's a move to remind us of spider's silk, cast to provoke his conversation partner into struggling, thereby entangling him-/herself more and more in the conversation. [urk! the SPYder philosophy! *groans and apologizes*]

2. The theory misconstrues several "beliefs" held by Snape-is-Innocent/Hero believers. (A) Snape still might have not cast avada kadavra, even if he was himself at Spinner's End, and (B) Dumbledore getting Snape to assist him in sacrificing himself would not likely damage Snape's soul. The whole assisted-suicide/sacrifice issue looms in this question. I'll leave it to better muggles than myself to argue the pros and cons of viewing assisted sacrifice as murder.

To get back to what you were saying, that realization for Snape would be surprising, but logical, I think. Dumbledore would surely have hoped to send Harry out with all the horcruxes taken care of, but I doubt that he believes that he can last much longer, given his arm. Why initiate Harry into the search otherwise? Knowing that Snape might be able to help Harry from the other side probably helps him accept the fact that he won't be able to help Harry through to the end. I expect to see Harry being lead to key info under mysterious circumstance in the next book, and I expect it will be the conclusion of Snape's unique way of teaching Harry (indirectly).

[Tex]

Originally Posted by hwyla

Just wanted to say Hi! to Tex - I think you're new to this thread (right?) - so thanks for joining us!

I also wanted to say that while Paintball's theory is possibly ONE way to explain the Tower scene - I think there are others as well that still leave us with a 'good' Snape. I must admit that the main problem I have with the theory is the suggestion that Snape in Spinners End is 'out-of-character' when I find him PERFECTLY 'in'-character there. I see no reason to suspect that it isn't Snape. I see Spinners End as our opportunity to watch Snape the SPY at work - a chance to watch him spin truths to fit his 'story'. To give that to Albus would ruin it for me.

Thanks for welcoming me to this thread. Everyone who has commented on DIATSSISE has obviously read and considered the theory, and rejected it for their own reason. Even Paintball agreed in the thread that those posters who did not feel JKR had written Snape "out of character" in that chapter would not consider DIATSSISE as the answer to a Good Snape tower scene explanation. I have considered all the other explanations, and I have rejected them for my own reasons. I cannot accept that Dumbledore intentionally sacrificed himself to save Snape. I have to agree with those posters (mostly evil Snape believers) who assert quite adamently that Dumbledore was a lot more valuable to the defeat of Voldemort then Snape and his loss was a major blow to the good guys. I also just cannot accept that Dumbledore would order Snape to commit murder for any reason. The dying from the hand theory doesn't match Dumbledore's statement that the loss of the hand was a fair trade for 1/7 of Voldemort's soul. If it was really his life that he traded, he would not have made this statement. I still can't figure out how any plan could have been made under the portion in the cave being poison theory, since Dumbledore didn't meet with Snape between the tower and the cave and the conversation in the forrest occured well prior to the cave. Most of us advocate that the conversation in the forrest was concerning a plan between Dumbledore and Snape.

I guess, like Paintball, the -forgive me- clue was what put me into the 100% acceptance of DIATSSISE camp. If JKR was writing Snape at the time, I can't think of any reason she would have included -forgive me- in that sentence the same way she wrote -forgive me- in similar Dumbledore sentences throughout HBP. To me this is a direct obvious clue that it was Dumbledore in Spinner's End.

For this thread it doesn't matter. We all think Snape is a good guy and a hero and is now in deep cover to assist in Voldemort's defeat. I guess how we got there doesn't matter, but I just wanted to give the undecided who might be viewing this thread the option to read the theory. It might bring some of the undecided who have the same problems with the other explanations of the tower scene that I had on board with the rest of us good Snape believers.

Regardless how we got here, it is good to be on a thread of only good Snape believers.