The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by ignisia

But hate is an emotion. So doesn't that mean they have an (albeit negative) emotional relationship?

Oh yes it is but Tane suggested that Snape would feel bad if the trio died. Therefore he tries to detach himself from them. Whereas if he has a Hate relationship with Harry, then why would he feel bad for him?

Originally Posted by ignisia

However, I think Snape is actually looking for traces of Lily's personality...And finds that he is able to discover very little of Lily because Harry behaves very James-like near him. Snape doesn't see the things about Harry that we do.

That is the point, Harry looks so much more like James that Snape is even more aggrieved by it an therefore tries to detach himself from Harry.

I was wondering what if Harry had an appearance more like Lily and less like James then what difference could we have seen in Snape's attitude towards Harry?

[lorna]

Originally Posted by ignisia

I'm not yet totally sure of Snape teaching approach, but I think if Snape teaches that way, so does it for everyone, being harsh in order to bring out the power of the kids.



I've never heard that one before. It's an interesting concept too. Makes me wonder if he tried to do that with other people as well. Perhaps that's one of the reasons he doesn't stick around for dinner at Grimmauld Place.

The thing with Snape's approach to teaching is I've always seen it the very old fashioned
"if you bully them enough they'll either get better at the subject or they'll leave because they can't cut it" approach. Which goes with Snape who is not the most modern wizard to begin with.

I like the idea that perhaps Snape isolates himself to some degree from others...he isn't exactly buddy buddy with anyone at Hogwarts...because he felt so much remorse at the deaths of the Potters. But as to eating at Grimmauld...I just can't see Snape sitting across the table from Sirius Black asking him to please pass the salt. And one of things
Black threw in Severus's face during the kitchen argument was the whole "you can't tell me...blah..blah.. in MY house"
I suspect that although Molly may have extended Snape a dinner invitation, Black never would have and as the house owner Snape probably wouldn't stay for dinner without it.
And I'm not sure he'd have stayed anyway. Kind of too bad, the after dinner conversation might have been interesting.

"I can't remember...did we manage to get that underwear off or not ....."

"That Azkaban thing...how'd that work out for you anyway???"

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by mysterious

That is the point, Harry looks so much more like James that Snape is even more aggrieved by it an therefore tries to detach himself from Harry.

Oh! I get it. Sorry. I thought you meant "Harry looks like James" by appearance, instead of by appearance and behavior. ^^;

Originally Posted by mysterious

I was wondering what if Harry had an appearance more like Lily and less like James then what difference could we have seen in Snape's attitude towards Harry?

I would actually think that there would be only a minor difference in what Snape does, but how he feels would change dramatically.

Originally Posted by lorna

I like the idea that perhaps Snape isolates himself to some degree from others...he isn't exactly buddy buddy with anyone at Hogwarts...because he felt so much remorse at the deaths of the Potters. But as to eating at Grimmauld...I just can't see Snape sitting across the table from Sirius Black asking him to please pass the salt. And one of things
Black threw in Severus's face during the kitchen argument was the whole "you can't tell me...blah..blah.. in MY house"
I suspect that although Molly may have extended Snape a dinner invitation, Black never would have and as the house owner Snape probably wouldn't stay for dinner without it.
And I'm not sure he'd have stayed anyway. Kind of too bad, the after dinner conversation might have been interesting.

Yes, that's why I cited Tane's theory as one of the explanations. There are probably quite a few reasons why Snape doesn't want to socialise with the Order, and Sirius is definitely one of them. I think they could have tolerated each other's company, but only if enough people tried to get them calm, and anyway...It just isn't worth it. Snape probably knows this, and doesn't want to get in another argument with Sirius when people are eating dinner. It's uncomfortable for everyone in the room.

Originally Posted by lorna

"I can't remember...did we manage to get that underwear off or not ....."

"That Azkaban thing...how'd that work out for you anyway???"

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by ignisia

There are probably quite a few reasons why Snape doesn't want to socialise with the Order, and Sirius is definitely one of them. I think they could have tolerated each other's company, but only if enough people tried to get them calm, and anyway...It just isn't worth it.

I think Snape doesn't do that so as to avoid trouble. He knows that he would not be able to control himself if Sirius said anything and seeing that Sirius had become a touch impulsive, he tried to avoid as much trouble as possible. Moreover he knew he wasn't welcome in the Noblest and the Most Ancient House of Black.

[sweet16]

well, it is well known that snape and sirius hated each other, so they would obviously of argued if they were alone together for long enough. And even though sirius hated that house, snape wouldn't of been welcome!

[unconvinced]

Originally Posted by mysterious

I think Snape doesn't do that so as to avoid trouble. He knows that he would not be able to control himself if Sirius said anything and seeing that Sirius had become a touch impulsive, he tried to avoid as much trouble as possible. Moreover he knew he wasn't welcome in the Noblest and the Most Ancient House of Black.

He probobly also hated the idea of being the guest of Sirius and also he would know that most of the order only trust him because Dumbledore does. It is also possible that he didn't want to be in headquarters to much as it may have made his occlumency of Voldemort harder with so many memories.

[Paintball]

Originally Posted by unconvience

It is also possible that he didn't want to be in headquarters to much as it may have made his occlumency of Voldemort harder with so many memories.

I think this is a big reason Snape is such a loner. Like you said, the fewer emotions or memories he has to hide the better. Having to hide a Merry Christmas with friends made up of members of the Order would be just risking too much. It is easier to just stay away from everyone else as much as possible and be a sourpuss when he is around the Order members or any of the trio. Since Voldemort wanted him to get along with Dumbledore, it would be O.K. for him to show respect for Dumbledore.

[Sarapsys]

Originally Posted by Paintball

I think this is a big reason Snape is such a loner.

He always seems to have been a bit of a loner though, even in SWM we see everyone wandering off with their friends to unwind after the final and he's by himself, still going over his test. I do think that the Occlumency probably contributes to it, though.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Paintball

I think this is a big reason Snape is such a loner. Like you said, the fewer emotions or memories he has to hide the better. Having to hide a Merry Christmas with friends made up of members of the Order would be just risking too much. It is easier to just stay away from everyone else as much as possible and be a sourpuss when he is around the Order members or any of the trio. Since Voldemort wanted him to get along with Dumbledore, it would be O.K. for him to show respect for Dumbledore.

I agree, Paintball. It's OK for Snape to eat holiday meals at Hogwarts with Dumbledore, but he can't show up to help decorate Grimmauld Place and eat the Christmas turkey because that would be too much to cover up.

So the way he handles it is to always be "busy" and run in and out of there, with "messages" from Dumbledore, just as Voldemort would expect.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by Paintball

I think this is a big reason Snape is such a loner. Like you said, the fewer emotions or memories he has to hide the better. Having to hide a Merry Christmas with friends made up of members of the Order would be just risking too much. It is easier to just stay away from everyone else as much as possible and be a sourpuss when he is around the Order members or any of the trio. Since Voldemort wanted him to get along with Dumbledore, it would be O.K. for him to show respect for Dumbledore.

I think the occlumency reason would be a lame cause because we know that Snape is a good enough occlumence. He has hidden most of his memories from Voldemort to fear showing something. Moreover whilst using legilimency of the type which Voldemort or Dumbledore use is the one which can only assess the most recent images that appear in the fore-brain. The purpose being that when they talk about something which a person is hiding then they (the person under consideration) is prone to think about what he has been questioned about. Therefore Snape has to hide only the memories that appear in his fore brain which is not difficult for him. Moreover why will he think about the memory he has about his feast at #12 GP. While talking to Voldemort he is prone to think about topic under consideration not about the wonderful feast he had had at #12. Therefore it is not that particular reason as to why Snape doesn't socialize himself with the order.

IMO he doesn't socialize with the order is because he is the busiest person of the order. He has to play the dual role of the Spy as well as carry on with his responsibility as a teacher, he can't afford to spent stray hours with the order, he can instead use that time scheming and planning. Moreover Dumbledore also doesn't socialize with the order as often as other members for the simple reason that he doesn't have time for it.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by mysterious

IMO he doesn't socialize with the order is because he is the busiest person of the order. He has to play the dual role of the Spy as well as carry on with his responsibility as a teacher, he can't afford to spent stray hours with the order, he can instead use that time scheming and planning. Moreover Dumbledore also doesn't socialize with the order as often as other members for the simple reason that he doesn't have time for it.

I think I pretty much agree with this - to my mind, one of the most valuable things about Snape is that he's more concerned with getting on with the Order's work than he is with being popular. That's why DD trusts him to kill him - nobody else in the Order would be brave enough or prepared to become the target of widespread hatred.

[lorna]

well I think there's some merit in the idea that Snape wouldn't want too many "happy
Grimmauld memories" in his head. Yes, he's an excellent occlumens yet Harry was still able to pull two to three memories I'm sure Snape didn't really want him to see (the bucking broom, the lonely fly shooting teen and the crying child) out of his head. And Snape knew Harry was going to be trying to do just that.
Voldemort wouldn't be giving Snape any warning, he'd just cast the spell.
Seems to me it, the more memories of a certain type there were, the more work to keep them hidden with a bigger risk of them being discovered.
So best not hang out in Grimmauld any longer than can be explained.

[ignisia]

I think that all these reasons factor into it some way or another. There can't just be one explanation.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by lorna

Yes, he's an excellent occlumens yet Harry was still able to pull two to three memories I'm sure Snape didn't really want him to see

I have specified in my post that that Voldemort and Dumbledore don't use the same version of legilimency that Snape used on Harry. They use the more milder version that doesn't penetrate deep otherwise the other person would suspect it and it would not be acceptable, I mean Voldemort wouldn't not dare use Legilimency in such a form that the Death Eaters can tell that he is testing them because even though he inspires fear, his work is also dependent on trust and people don't trust those who are always suspicious about you.

[janusincantus]

Originally Posted by mysterious

I have specified in my post that that Voldemort and Dumbledore don't use the same version of legilimency that Snape used on Harry. They use the more milder version that doesn't penetrate deep otherwise the other person would suspect it and it would not be acceptable, I mean Voldemort wouldn't not dare use Legilimency in such a form that the Death Eaters can tell that he is testing them because even though he inspires fear, his work is also dependent on trust and people don't trust those who are always suspicious about you.

I dare to disagree with Voldemort-Death Eater trust. Quite the contarty, I think the whole power play is based on mistrust, insecurity and fear. Typical totalitarian regime. In a way this also peovides Snape with the keys to cheat Voldemort, as he knows very well the Dark Lord will attempt to read his mind, so as an occlumens, he can plan in advance.

[gorgie101]

Mysterious Said: IMO he doesn't socialize with the order is because he is the busiest person of the order. He has to play the dual role of the Spy as well as carry on with his responsibility as a teacher, he can't afford to spent stray hours with the order, he can instead use that time scheming and planning. Moreover Dumbledore also doesn't socialize with the order as often as other members for the simple reason that he doesn't have time for it.

My thoughts exactly!

Also has anyone bothered to ask how snape got the nickname "Snivilus" (sp)
I mean most school nicknames have an origin. You know four-eyes for people with glasses etc.. What was it that Snape was sniviling about that made the Mauraders call him that?

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by janusincantus

I dare to disagree with Voldemort-Death Eater trust. Quite the contarty, I think the whole power play is based on mistrust, insecurity and fear. Typical totalitarian regime. In a way this also peovides Snape with the keys to cheat Voldemort, as he knows very well the Dark Lord will attempt to read his mind, so as an occlumens, he can plan in advance.

I tend to agree that it can be advanced for those Death Eaters who were forced into it, but most like Bella, her husband, Nott... are the few who are in the inner most circle and Voldemort has to trust them not entirely but enough so that he doesn't need to rack their brain every single meeting so as to look for any symptoms of treachery or deceit. What my point is that what Snape showed Harry was the most extreme version of Legilimency which gave him forced entry into Harry's mind. But Voldemort can't use that, not on his inner most circle. Even Hitler trusted his inner most members. Same is the case with Voldemort and Snape is definitely one of them (member of inner circle).

[lorna]

Originally Posted by mysterious

I have specified in my post that that Voldemort and Dumbledore don't use the same version of legilimency that Snape used on Harry. They use the more milder version that doesn't penetrate deep otherwise the other person would suspect it and it would not be acceptable, I mean Voldemort wouldn't not dare use Legilimency in such a form that the Death Eaters can tell that he is testing them because even though he inspires fear, his work is also dependent on trust and people don't trust those who are always suspicious about you.

I would think knowing Voldemort skill at legilimency would be an excellent way to keep his death eaters in line and he would have no trouble using it obviously.
It's one thing to know someone can see your memories, it's a whole other to see it used on someone and then see what comes of it. Likely, if your a death eater, nothing good or painless.
Death eaters talk alot about trust....but at the end of the day Voldemort rules by fear. Voldemort has no trouble planting Pettigrew with Snape to "help" him. Both Narcissa and Draco are terrified of what Voldemort might do because he's displeased with the Malfoys
There is nothing equal to their reactions when DD is displeased.
And I don't recall anything in canon beyond Snape being able to sense when someone is lying to him, that there's varying strengths of legilimency itself . If anything it looks to me that sensing lying is likely a skill needed for legilimency or the practice of legitlimency increases one's sensitvity to lying. But to actually pull those memories you need to cast a spell. The idea that there's is a "legililmency lite" is interesting but it sounds kind of like mindreading and Snape said something to the effect that legilimency is "not mind reading."
So I still think Snape's tendency to isolate himself is partly because it's just gives him less stuff to supress when he's in Voldemort's company.
When you think of it...kind of a sacrfice on Snape's part. Surely there must a couple of people Snape doesn't mind talking too from time to time.

[gorgie101]

I guess this whole thing about the legilimancy and Oclumancy is kind of interesting.

I really don't put to much stock in the fact that Snape seems to know when he is being lied to by Harry. Come on. I know when I was little my dad could tell when I was lying to him very easily. Kids (most of them anyway) can't lie to well. I babysit often and even those kids I don't see but every few months I can tell when they are pulling a fast one on me. The net effect is Snape has been a teacher for what 14+ years, Ithink he knows when kids are lying to him, especially if it happens to be Harry. I like to think of Snape as a detective in a way. Police Detectives can often tell by body language and mood changes if someone is lying to them or not. They may not be able to say "yeah he did it" but they can tell when a suspect is withholding information.

Voldemort does not trust his followers. He rules by fear and intimidation. Only those that are as messed up in the head as he is actually enjoy his company. (Bellatrix comes to mind) I think of it this way. Dumbledore is like a parent: His trust is based on love and faith in a person. Voldemort is like the IRS: he just taxes you cause he can and if you don't pay up then you get punished and sent to jail (ie you die).

Sorry for the ramble

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by lorna

If anything it looks to me that sensing lying is likely a skill needed for legilimency or the practice of legitlimency increases one's sensitvity to lying. But to actually pull those memories you need to cast a spell. The idea that there's is a "legililmency lite" is interesting but it sounds kind of like mindreading and Snape said something to the effect that legilimency is "not mind reading."

Oh...yes Legilimency is not mind reading, but what Snape showed in Ootp isn't shown anywhere else in the book. Dumbledore often senses that Harry is hiding something and Harry has a distinct impression that Dumbledore is reading his mind, but he doesn't see flashes of images like he saw in Ootp, moreover in HBP when Harry and Dumbledore are going for the cave before that in the conversation that they have in Dumbledore's office--

The Seer Overheard, HBP 'What has happened to you?' 'Nothing,' lied Harry promptly. 'What has upset you?' ' I'm not upset.' ' Harry, you were never a good Occlumens-' The word was the spark that ignited Harry's fury....

Now here we don't see Dumbledore using the same version of Legilimency that Snape used yet we have him saying that Harry is not good at occlumency, clearly showing that he was using Legilimency. This proves my point that what Snape used was the most extreme case of Legilimency which is used to get insight in the innermost memories not the ones that float in the fore-brain.