The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Obscure

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Actually, that is not what Lucius did at all.

OOTP

Cool, thanks. I guess Lucius was putting the good word in for Snape. Though I never thought Malfoy wasn't trying to manipulate Fudge, I thought this was abundantly clear in the books. So, I agree with you about that. I was just suggesting that 'our slippery friend' wouldn't think twice about stabbing someone in the back.

I think that there is always the possibility that Umbridge was bringing this up as a veiled threat - a kind of 'and I'll be letting him know you weren't being helpful'. As she loses more control as the story progresses she becomes more feverish in her desire to retain it and she seems pretty frustrated in this scene.

Originally Posted by Latisha

Fudge to me seems like a man that only sees what he wants to see.

True, maybe Malfoy somehow managed to work his way around Fudges previous impressions.

Originally Posted by Latisha

What she was being put off with was the strengthening potion because she and Fudge were of the belief that Dumbledore was trying to build an army to overthrow the Ministry. It is obvious, since the quote I've provided is after this as well as after her asking Snape for his truth serum, that she trusts Snape, but does not like the idea of what the students are learning, as is evident in her DADA classes.

I did get the impression that she was suspicious of him. She also questions him about his applying for the DADA job and this seems to strike a note as he replies 'jerkily' and enquires of the relevancy of her line of questioning, to which she replies "...the Ministry wants a thorough understanding of teachers' - er - backgrounds." I guess she is either talking about supporting Dumbledore or being a DE, personally, I think it's probably the latter, but either way, she seems suspicious to me. How did you inerpret what she said?

Originally Posted by Latisha

Actually, the main argument is what I've put in bold.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, your argument seemed to be predicated on Dumbledore sacrificing himself and I don't think he did, so I thought I should be upfront about it. I do agree that there is the possiblity that there is more to why Snape changed sides.

Originally Posted by Latisha

Dumbledore has told Harry about the life-debt, so that can't be what he was refusing to tell Harry. All the Order members want LV gone, so what is the point of refusing to tell Harry that, none

That's what I was saying too, in a different way.

Originally Posted by Latisha

So what was so secretive a reason for completely trusting in Snape that Dumbledore could not tell Harry?

As I said, it could be something personal (not Lily related) or something that Dumbledore didn't know. Dumbledore says that he believes the reason Snape returned was his remorse upon finding out who Voldemort had chosen. If there was a different reason that Dumbledore wasn't telling Harry then I honestly don't think it was Lily.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Cool, thanks. I guess Lucius was putting the good word in for Snape.

Exactly, it is what she said and she trusted that Lucius was right in his reference.

How did you inerpret what she said?

She was suspicious at first, especially since he was teaching the kids strengthening potions, as it could indicate that he is helping Dumbledore build an army to rise against the ministry.

However, we see that after this, she has gained confidence in Snape, due to Lucius' references, Snape's resentment to not getting the DADA job, the obvious loathing of Harry, would all indicate to her, that Snape could be a man to count on. Which she does, she gets all the Slytherin students to be in the Inquisitors Squad, she wouldn't have done so if she thought that they could be influenced by someone loyal to Dumbedore, she also trusted Snape to keep his mouth shut about the truth potion. She even told Snape that she was going to use it on Harry. So I think that it's fair to say that once she had established that she could trust Snape, early on, she did so.

I do agree that there is the possiblity that there is more to why Snape changed sides.

There is definately more, for the whole of OOTP and HBP Dumbledore refuses to satisfy questions in regard to Snape's loyalty. In HBP Dumbledore came close to telling Harry but stopped. I don't see the point in there being a cliff hanger for 2 books if it was nothing.

As I said, it could be something personal (not Lily related)

Any suggestion as to what it could be?

Dumbledore says that he believes the reason Snape returned was his remorse upon finding out who Voldemort had chosen.

Yes, he told Harry this, so this could not be what Dumbledore was hiding. Dumbledore does not trust people willy nilly. He trusts them for a very good reason. Since he has already given Harry the answers life-debt and remorse and apart from the obvious there is more. Something that Dumbledore was unwilling to tell Harry and or any member of the order.

If there was a different reason that Dumbledore wasn't telling Harry then I honestly don't think it was Lily.

Would you like to elaborate?

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Latisha

However, we see that after this, she has gained confidence in Snape, due to Lucius' references, Snape's resentment to not getting the DADA job, the obvious loathing of Harry, would all indicate to her, that Snape could be a man to count on. Which she does, she gets all the Slytherin students to be in the Inquisitors Squad, she wouldn't have done so if she thought that they could be influenced by someone loyal to Dumbedore, she also trusted Snape to keep his mouth shut about the truth potion. She even told Snape that she was going to use it on Harry. So I think that it's fair to say that once she had established that she could trust Snape, early on, she did so.

I still see it slightly differently, however, moving on.

Originally Posted by Latisha

Would you like to elaborate?

I think there are several possibilities:

- It could be something related to Snape's family, possibly his mother. We know from the Potions book that she was at the school at the same time as Tom Riddle and at the time of Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald, it may be something connected to both or either of those.

- It could be related to Regulus, maybe they were friends and his murderand the circumstances around it could have affected Snape enough to convince to take the risk to change sides.

- It may be that Snape found some information relating to why Voldemort wanted to teach at the school and wants to use this against him.

- He may have suffered rather harshly himself at Voldemort's hand and decided to leave.

- or a combination of these, they don't necessarily have to stand alone.



What do you think about the apparent contradiction between Trelawney's version of the night she gave the first prophecy and Dumbledore's? I don't really know what to make of it .

Trelawney says that Snape was outside the door, after what appears to be her having given the full prophecy. Dumbledore's states that Snape only heard the first part. Even when Harry confronts him about it Dumbledore still says this, then they go their Horcrux hunt and it isn't picked up again.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by Polaris

- It could be something related to Snape's family, possibly his mother. We know from the Potions book that she was at the school at the same time as Tom Riddle and at the time of Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald, it may be something connected to both or either of those.

I didn't know about the Grindelwald thing, but I certainly knew about the LV thing, many of those in the same age group as Snape, had their parents at Hogwarts during LV's time there. There are also others during the same time that were in Slytherin together during the time of LV's time there, so I really don't see what it could be. Afterall, if it was because Eileen was persecuted for marrying a muggle, wouldn't LV have rejected Snape from becoming a DE in the first place? By Eileen marrying a muggle I don't see her being friendly with LV at all. Besides, to what point does Dumbledore have to hide this from Harry if he wants Harry to totally trust him?

- It could be related to Regulus, maybe they were friends and his murderand the circumstances around it could have affected Snape enough to convince to take the risk to change sides.

Wouldn't this be something to tell Sirius and since Harry was so close to Sirius something that Harry could swallow since it seemed that Dumbledore really wanted Harry to trust Snape and would not hear otherwise?

- It may be that Snape found some information relating to why Voldemort wanted to teach at the school and wants to use this against him.

I don't think so, because Dumbledore already covered that in "Lord Voldemort's Request" in HBP. I hardly see Dumbledore telling Harry something, when he knows there is something else that could be crucial to Harry in his last stand against LV. That was Dumbledore's aim afterall, to keep Harry alive and have him as armed as possible for the fight.

- He may have suffered rather harshly himself at Voldemort's hand and decided to leave.

But this also doesn't fit with the timeline or sequence of events. Snape had just given LV the upper hand, by allowing LV to destroy the one with the power to kill him before the one got too strong (this is from LV's point of view at the time). I don't see why he would make him suffer, as it is during this time that Snape decides to switch sides.

- or a combination of these, they don't necessarily have to stand alone.

None, even by combination make no sense to the chain of events or what Dumbledore has implied about Snape's "trustworthiness" during the series. So again, I disagree with you.

What do you think about the apparent contradiction between Trelawney's version of the night she gave the first prophecy and Dumbledore's? I don't really know what to make of it

I don't think that Trelawney remembered, but that she was asked by Aberforth upon checking out, if she was alright [insert how Abe chucked Snape when he saw him spying] and obviously not wanting to seem oblivious to it, probably said something like. "Yes, I foresaw that would happen. Young ones need to learn the hard way, etc." Or something along those lines.

Even when Harry confronts him about it Dumbledore still says this, then they go their Horcrux hunt and it isn't picked up again.

Actually, I don't think that Harry ever thought about whether or not Snape heard the full prophecy as he was more PO about the fact that it was Snape that sent his parents to the grave. So his hatred for Snape had grown more so then the last when he was blaming Snape for the death of Sirius. This could have been the best time for Dumbledore to explain why he trusted Snape so much, especially since he wanted Harry to trust him. Obviously he was hoping that Harry would take Dumbledore's word for it, which obviously is just not going to happen.

Don't forget as well, that the hunt, the cave, the lightening struck tower happened, so it's impossible to think that they could consider anything else at the time. Plus, Dumbledore died, so Snape has got some explaining to do.

[stevehim42]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but did we ever get a reason why Dumbledore chose Snape to teach DADA after all this time? Seems like a very strange thing to do with the current state of affairs, and I think this may play into Snape being one of the 'good guys, for Dumbledore must've had some reason to do this.

I find it highly unlikely that Snape is actually working for Voldemort, despite what outward appearances may seem at this point. Story externally, it makes little sense. First of all, if Snape has been a double agent for the Dark Lord this entire time, it greatly diminishes his character, as he would be as we have seen him as he was (through Harry's eyes) the entire time. Additionally, JK would be bucking a very heavy literary trend in that the young, uninformed hero was correct from the beginning, and the wise old guide was wrong the whole way through. This would be, I think, fairly unheard of, especially considering what a major plot point this is.

Story-internally, let's examine the scene where Snape kills Dumbledore (though we know Dumbledore is not gone from the story, as he is now present in the pictures of the previous headmasters/mistresses and can interact with our charcters still). The look of hatred and revulsion etched in Snape's features might lead one to believe he hates Dumbledore, but JK is very careful not to tell us what he hates and reviles, and it could just as easily be the task he is about to undertake (ie - killing Dumbledore) as it could be hating the wizard himself. We also have Dumbledore pleading with Snape. Was he pleading for Snape to save him, or to kill him? I suggest that it is highly unlikely that Dumbledore is suddenly pleading for his life, which would be highly uncharacteristic of him. Even if get past that hurdle (big as it is), what would Dumbledore be asking Snape to do, realistically? Take on 3 Death Eaters and a Werewolf by himself? That seems pretty far-fetched as well.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by stevehim42

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but did we ever get a reason why Dumbledore chose Snape to teach DADA after all this time? Seems like a very strange thing to do with the current state of affairs, and I think this may play into Snape being one of the 'good guys, for Dumbledore must've had some reason to do this.

It is something to chew on, but I think that what Snape said in regard to his matter rings true as well, that Dumbledore didn't want to tempt Snape into his old habits. I believe that it was the lack of applicants to teach the subject that Snape was able to get the DADA job. Though, this being said, it did show that Dumbledore had to trust Snape would not fall back into his old ways and even that Snape was able to help heal him when he was injured from the ring horcrux shows that Dumbledore does trust Snape.

I find it highly unlikely that Snape is actually working for Voldemort, despite what outward appearances may seem at this point. Story externally, it makes little sense. First of all, if Snape has been a double agent for the Dark Lord this entire time, it greatly diminishes his character, as he would be as we have seen him as he was (through Harry's eyes) the entire time. Additionally, JK would be bucking a very heavy literary trend in that the young, uninformed hero was correct from the beginning, and the wise old guide was wrong the whole way through. This would be, I think, fairly unheard of, especially considering what a major plot point this is.

I totally agree with you, though I wouldn't call this canon proof

Story-internally, let's examine the scene where Snape kills Dumbledore (though we know Dumbledore is not gone from the story, as he is now present in the pictures of the previous headmasters/mistresses and can interact with our charcters still). The look of hatred and revulsion etched in Snape's features might lead one to believe he hates Dumbledore, but JK is very careful not to tell us what he hates and reviles, and it could just as easily be the task he is about to undertake (ie - killing Dumbledore) as it could be hating the wizard himself.

Exactly JK was very clever as we see an identical scene in HBP just a chapter before where Harry feels self hatred and repulsion to force feeding Dumbledore the potion within the basin.

We also have Dumbledore pleading with Snape. Was he pleading for Snape to save him, or to kill him? I suggest that it is highly unlikely that Dumbledore is suddenly pleading for his life, which would be highly uncharacteristic of him. Even if get past that hurdle (big as it is), what would Dumbledore be asking Snape to do, realistically? Take on 3 Death Eaters and a Werewolf by himself? That seems pretty far-fetched as well.

Again I totally agree with you. However, I am curious as to what you believe Dumbledore was pleading for?

[stevehim42]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Again I totally agree with you. However, I am curious as to what you believe Dumbledore was pleading for?

My best guess is that he was pleading with Snape to kill him, as some part of a greater plan, knowing that Severus would not want to do it and would need some coaxing.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by stevehim42

My best guess is that he was pleading with Snape to kill him, as some part of a greater plan, knowing that Severus would not want to do it and would need some coaxing.

Just checking, I actually agree with you. We get a mirror of this in the cave where Harry was ordered by Dumbledore to force feed him the potion. Harry's life in Dumbledore's view, which he illustrated twice, was more precious then his own. For that main reason, I believe he willingly sacrificed his life, by ordering Snape to do so and making the best of alot of really bad options.

[IgoRetla]

Originally Posted by Latisha

For that main reason, I believe he willingly sacrificed his life, by ordering Snape to do so and making the best of alot of really bad options.

I still think that what was of greatest import to Dumbledore at that moment was getting the Death Eaters out of his castle, and away from his students, as fast as possible. That sense of responsibility is reflected in his rambling in the cave, just as Harry's reaqction parallels Snape's.

However, as I was posting in a Div Studies thread, I started wondering about something. It seems to me that the nature of Voldemort's curse on the DADA position is that at the end of the year, it forces the Professor to reveal his deepest, darkest secret--forcing him (or her) to vacate the position.

So, how does that work for Snape? Does it reveal to us all that he is indeed, loyal to the Dark Lord?

Or does it reveal to the Dark Lord that he is loyal to Dumbledore...and must flee with Draco for his life? Their lives?

[Latisha]

Hi IgoRetla, nice to see your still here

I still think that what was of greatest import to Dumbledore at that moment was getting the Death Eaters out of his castle, and away from his students, as fast as possible. That sense of responsibility is reflected in his rambling in the cave, just as Harry's reaqction parallels Snape's.

True, I agree However, I think it is more of a combination. Dumbledore knows that Harry has to live in order to kill LV. His student's would not be safe from him until he does. But definately he would want his charges (students of Hogwarts), safe from immediate danger.

However, as I was posting in a Div Studies thread, I started wondering about something. It seems to me that the nature of Voldemort's curse on the DADA position is that at the end of the year, it forces the Professor to reveal his deepest, darkest secret--forcing him (or her) to vacate the position.

Interesting concept.

1. Quirrell = greed
2. Lockhart = a lier and deceiver, not very good at magic
3. Lupin = his being a werewolf
4. Crouch Jr = an imposter
5. Umbridge = prejudiced
6. Snape = true to the Dark Lord or forced to harm someone he admires and respects.

So, how does that work for Snape? Does it reveal to us all that he is indeed, loyal to the Dark Lord?

Or does it reveal to the Dark Lord that he is loyal to Dumbledore...and must flee with Draco for his life? Their lives?

Come to think about it, your forgetting that Quirrell worked as the DADA teacher before, he took a year off to delve more into the practical aspect of DADA. That is how he ended up with LV at the back of his head. So I don't think that Quirrell taking a year off to continue his studies.

[IgoRetla]

Originally Posted by Latisha

Come to think about it, your forgetting that Quirrell worked as the DADA teacher before, he took a year off to delve more into the practical aspect of DADA. That is how he ended up with LV at the back of his head. So I don't think that Quirrell taking a year off to continue his studies.

Hi Latisha! So this is where you're hiding out!

No, not forgetting at all. I think that's one of the ambiguities that Jo wishes she could go back and correct. And it does say that Quirrell was okay as long as he was studying out of books, it's when he went to get some real experience that he got into trouble.

The parallel would be Voldemort being to to get some experience before he became a professor. I still think Quirrell actually only had the job a year--despite what is implied. He got his N.E.W.T.s, went to travel the world--and ran into Voldy.

So the argument would be that the curse did, indeed, affect Snape before the end of the year. And what does it say about him? It really could go either way.

[mrsweasley51490]

ok well im new and i dont know if this is even bieng discussed but does any one think that snape could be a vampire i was looking in ULTIMATE UNOFFICIAL GUIDE TO THE MYSTERIES OF HARRY POTTER it only goes up to before the fith book but it suggests some clues to snape bieng a vampire

1. he lives in a dungeon and in the HBP he keeps his new room dark and lights it only with candles

2. he is always up at night and catching harry out of bed

3. rons little joke about snape "turning him self into a bat or something"

4. he has "sallow skin"

5. Quirrel (who mentioned he was going to buy a book on vampires) described snape as "flitting around like an overgrown bat"
and last

6. just like snape assigned an essay on werewolves to expose lupin . lupin then assigned an essay on vampires as pay back

if this was already discussed and you do not wish to discuss it again than you dont have to i just thought this was interesting information about snapes character. since the book is only about the first four books and i thought maybe you could help finding evidence disproving or supporting this theroy.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by IgoRetla

Hi Latisha! So this is where you're hiding out!

Shhh, don't tell anyone Actually, I've been hiding in the arcades

No, not forgetting at all. I think that's one of the ambiguities that Jo wishes she could go back and correct. And it does say that Quirrell was okay as long as he was studying out of books, it's when he went to get some real experience that he got into trouble.

The parallel would be Voldemort being to to get some experience before he became a professor. I still think Quirrell actually only had the job a year--despite what is implied. He got his N.E.W.T.s, went to travel the world--and ran into Voldy.

True. However, it seemed volunteered, with no outside pressure or any demand to do so, which is unlike the examples given of Harry's DADA teachers while they were teaching him. I'm pretty sure we are told that he taught and took one year out, as opposed to going from studies to practical and then to teaching Harry's first year?

[wimblemimble]

Recent posts on Snape the Hero thread have been leaving me a little confused as to where my real home is. I mean, I think that Snape is a good guy, working for Dumbledore, but I don’t think he’s perfect. He’s snarky and sarcastic, and a bit of a jerk, but that is why I love him! So I’ve done a lot of thinking, and while I love many of the posters on Hero, and think they’ve come up with many thought provoking theories in the past, I feel I may fit in better in Obscure. (In all honesty I’ve never been able to figure out what the difference between the two are, and I’ve been wondering if I should ‘jump ships’ for a while now. So I figure this is as good a time as any would be to see if Obscure is a better fit for me.)

[Chris]

Welcome to the obscure thread...my home's here because I tend to think that Snape's a deeply flawed man personally, but he's still on the side of good. Can't speak for anyone else, though .

[Latisha]

Wimble

It's true that the hero thread is similar to our home here. I guess the only difference is that here, we believe that Snape is a snaky, sarcastic and a bit of a jerk, but none the less one of Dumbledore's men. So welcome

[wimblemimble]

Ah, I'm welcomed!

And, just a quick comment, MrsWeasly51490, I believe JKR has already de-bunked the Snape is a vampire theory. Although her comment may or may not have implied that he is involved with them in some way. (And I can't even remember what the quote is, so I can't tell you what I think of it.)

[Valkonde]

Originally Posted by Latisha

True. However, it seemed volunteered, with no outside pressure or any demand to do so, which is unlike the examples given of Harry's DADA teachers while they were teaching him. I'm pretty sure we are told that he taught and took one year out, as opposed to going from studies to practical and then to teaching Harry's first year?

This is something that's always eluded me as well. While in PS/SS it is implied that Quirrel had held the DADA post previously and merely gone to travel and study for a year, in HBP all the evidence given us by Dumbledore is that after Voldemort applied for the DADA post it was cursed and no other teacher stayed more than a year.

I'm no expert at the timelines, but I'm guessing that Voldemort applied for the job anywhere between 5 and 20 years after he left school. This would still likely be many years before Quirrel even arrived at Hogwarts (assuming his knowledge of the Snape/James rivalry was due to his being a contemporary).

Hagrid said in PS/SS that Quirrel had a "brilliant mind." Perhaps he meant in school? I'd think Dumbledore's assessment of no one teaching DADA for more than a year would be accurate. He knows his staff very well.


Er, and, this had very little to do with Snape.

[mrsweasley51490]

Originally Posted by wimblemimble

Ah, I'm welcomed!

And, just a quick comment, MrsWeasly51490, I believe JKR has already de-bunked the Snape is a vampire theory. Although her comment may or may not have implied that he is involved with them in some way. (And I can't even remember what the quote is, so I can't tell you what I think of it.)

o i didnt know she mentioned that he wasnt thanx that clears things up but if he was involved with vampires maybe harry could use it agianst him or he could use them if he has a plan to help the order?

[Ice_Mouse]

...delurking...

Hi, hope it's okay if I just jump in. Like wimblemimble, I've been reading other threads, but think I probably belong here. I keep itching to play devil's advocate on the others .

Originally Posted by stevehim42

Story-internally, let's examine the scene where Snape kills Dumbledore (though we know Dumbledore is not gone from the story, as he is now present in the pictures of the previous headmasters/mistresses and can interact with our charcters still). The look of hatred and revulsion etched in Snape's features might lead one to believe he hates Dumbledore, but JK is very careful not to tell us what he hates and reviles, and it could just as easily be the task he is about to undertake (ie - killing Dumbledore) as it could be hating the wizard himself.

Originally Posted by Latisha

Exactly JK was very clever as we see an identical scene in HBP just a chapter before where Harry feels self hatred and repulsion to force feeding Dumbledore the potion within the basin.

So right. I just reread HBP, in preparation for the big day, and that scene with Harry and Dumbledore in the cave just about hit me over the head. And I get so confused when I see posters saying that Snape must die, Snape is an out-and-out villain, etc, because he killed Dumbledore and that it doesn't matter if it was Dumbledore's plan, or if there was an agreement between them, or if Dumbledore told Snape to do it, because it's M-U-R-D-E-R. But for all Harry knew in the cave, he was poisoning Dumbledore with that green stuff, but he kept on pouring it down his (Dd's) throat, because that's what Dumbledore told him to do. Given the reasoning above, wouldn't that make Harry guilty of attempted murder, though without intent? I don't think so. I think the circumstances must be taken into account. And also...

Originally Posted by IgoRetla

I still think that what was of greatest import to Dumbledore at that moment was getting the Death Eaters out of his castle, and away from his students, as fast as possible.

Exactly. And Snape just takes off, with Draco, he practically flies out of Hogwarts, which if he were a real DE, why? I thinks he's definately taking Dumbledore's wishes into account here, because if he were truly evil and a DE, I firmly think Snape would have taken time to gloat here. My impression of Snape is that he gloats, but on the tower there is no "Aha, old man, won't let me teach DADA, huh, well take this!" (I just went to look it up) In fact, aside from the AK, the only thing Snape says on the tower is "Out of here, quickly" which is very far from gloating. On the other hand , Snape doesn't really make much of an effort to get all the other DEs out of Hogwarts, does he? He just runs.

Originally Posted by IgoRetla

And what does it say about him? It really could go either way.

Just a couple more weeks and we'll know, one way or another. Personally, I'm pulling for "meanie on the side of good."