The Black Family Dynamics Revisited

[guad]

Originally Posted by Madron

Regulus must have felt the urge to prove himself.

Which also fits with JKRs comment that Regulus was similar to Draco. According to Bellatrix, Draco is keen on proving himself at the beginning of the assignment. Regulus most likely joined the DE right out of Hogwarts (probably tutored by cousin Bella) and maybe this made him fell important, being part of power and influence, doing dangerous stuff, like his older brother.
But then, according to Sirius, he got cold feet. It makes me wonder if Regulus pure blood convictions were as deep as for example Bellatrixes. I guess he was not a fanatic, but merely a young guy making the wrong choice.
He probably had a certain pure blood arrogance, but maybe not as deep as his mum or cousin.

And Narcissa on the other hand has no problem to beg a half blood for help.

The Blacks, being pure blood cultists, have shown different levels of their convictions: the fanatics (Bella, Walburga), the interested (Narcissa, Draco, Phineas), and the rebels (Sirius, Andromeda, Alphard)
I am unsure where to place Reggie here. If it turns out he was RAB, then he is a rebel, just like his brother.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by dobby_rocks

Hwyla it probably be considered unacceptable for Kreacher to address his Master by his first name. As far as the rest of the family, Cissy does call him Sirius in HBP when she and Draco run into the Trio at the robe shop. I’m not positive but I think Phienas calls him Sirius at the end of OOTP when Dumbledore confirms Sirius demise. I also think Draco says the name in POA but agian as you said maybe they dont know their related. Does Cissy and Bella know that Tonks is their neice, do Draco and Tonks know they are first cousins?

No, Phineas didn't call him by his name in this sceene.

"OotP, The lost Prophecy "Am I understand," said Phineas Nigellus slowly from Harry's left, "that my great-great grandson - the last of the Blacks - is dead?"

I can't recall that anybody (except of his friends) called him "Sirius", most of the time they call him only Black.

[LouisaB]

I know I wasn't the one that asked for it, but thanks for that quote.

I think it is quite a telling one in that Phineas seems to go to quite a length to not mention his name. He makes it very clear that he knows who it is who is being referred to but never mentions the name Sirius. Now it could be that it is simply the mode of speech of another generation but a member of the family would normally use first names, at least in my opinion.

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

I know I wasn't the one that asked for it, but thanks for that quote.

I think it is quite a telling one in that Phineas seems to go to quite a length to not mention his name. He makes it very clear that he knows who it is who is being referred to but never mentions the name Sirius. Now it could be that it is simply the mode of speech of another generation but a member of the family would normally use first names, at least in my opinion.

Now as you mention it. You have a point there. He rather spent more time with explaining the status and relationship between them, than just simply saying his name. It seems that it it didn't matter for him who it was, it was only important that it was a Black, an descendant of him and the last Black.

[LouisaB]

Originally Posted by TENSHI

Now as you mention it. You have a point there. He rather spent more time with explaining the status and relationship between them, than just simply saying his name. It seems that it it didn't matter for him who it was, it was only important that it was a Black, an descendant of him and the last Black.

I wonder if he might have thought that any Black was better than none and perhaps if the line was continued there would be some more pureblood believers there. Rather a case of any Black being better than none at all. And if they grew up at 12 Grimmauld Place there would be at least two portraits (his own and Mrs Blacks) trying to steer their minds towards the ideals of pureblood supermacy.

I think perhaps Sirius's influence might have been stronger on any children he may have had but a few generations down the line there would really be no telling. Sirius obviously had different beliefs despite growing up in the house. A few generations later and who could tell if the beliefs might not have reverted back again.

Continuing the line seems very important to the pureblood families and I am guessing that there might have been some disappointments in the other branch for producing three girls. They would know that their line was the last. Some families don't care about that sort of stuff but the Blacks seem to be the type that might.

[capella_black]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

I wonder if he might have thought that any Black was better than none and perhaps if the line was continued there would be some more pureblood believers there.

...

Continuing the line seems very important to the pureblood families and I am guessing that there might have been some disappointments in the other branch for producing three girls. They would know that their line was the last. Some families don't care about that sort of stuff but the Blacks seem to be the type that might.

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I think Bella didn't kill Sirius intentionally. And possibly why Walburga didn't disinherit him, even though she clearly disowned him.

I wonder if, after he was sent to Azkaban, the rest of the Blacks thought Sirius was guilty? That he had turned and secretly worked for the Dark Lord and killed a dozen Muggles and all that good stuff. It'd be hard for them to believe, but it was hard for most people who knew Sirius to believe. Snape believed it, and he was a Death Eater. Dumbledore believed it, and he's Dumbledore.

So, I dunno... what d'you guys think? Bellatrix, Andromeda, Narcissa, Walburga? Would any of them believe he was guilty?

cb

[guad]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

Continuing the line seems very important to the pureblood families and I am guessing that there might have been some disappointments in the other branch for producing three girls. They would know that their line was the last. Some families don't care about that sort of stuff but the Blacks seem to be the type that might.

That's a very interesting aspect. I believe that Dumbledore says something to Fudge regarding the pure blood families, and how they die out, about the Crouches.
Maybe it's no coincidence that the pure blood cultists die out.

Actually I believe that marrying in the same family is not good for genetic health, and that they die out is also biological.

By the male rule, interesting enough, the next male Black member would be Draco, who is also the only one on the family tree in the generation of Harry.

Originally Posted by capella_black

I wonder if, after he was sent to Azkaban, the rest of the Blacks thought Sirius was guilty? That he had turned and secretly worked for the Dark Lord and killed a dozen Muggles and all that good stuff. It'd be hard for them to believe, but it was hard for most people who knew Sirius to believe. Snape believed it, and he was a Death Eater. Dumbledore believed it, and he's Dumbledore.

So, I dunno... what d'you guys think? Bellatrix, Andromeda, Narcissa, Walburga? Would any of them believe he was guilty?

That's a really good question.

I assume that Walburga and Co did think that he really was on Voldemorts side, they had no information about Peter or inside DE circles.
Did they think that Sirius was a little hero too? Or did they believe the double-double crossing?

About Bella, I tend to think that she knew about Sirius and Peter. She was in the inner circle and might have known some information.

[LouisaB]

Originally Posted by capella_black

So, I dunno... what d'you guys think? Bellatrix, Andromeda, Narcissa, Walburga? Would any of them believe he was guilty?

I don't Andromeda would believe it. I get the impression she might have been in touch with Sirius. If she wasn't in touch with him then I think she might have been shocked by the reports but eventually came to believe it.

Bellatrix I don't think would believe it either as she, as has already been pointed out, was in the inner circle and would know the truth.

Narcissa, I think may not have known. It depends how much Bellatrix and Lucius told her.

Walburga I think would have had the same reaction as Andromeda. She would be well aware of what Sirius believed in and would have been shocked at the reports but might have eventually come to believe it.

I think something worth considering here is whether any of them would have considered Sirius a coward. After all that is why Peter claimed he joined Voldemort, because he was afraid not to.

Both boys were sorted into Gryffindor, but with most of the Black family being sorted into Slytherin where they value their own lives more than most...how many of the family perhaps thought that Sirius being sorted into Gryffindor was a mistake and that "blood will out"?

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by guad

That's a really good question.

I assume that Walburga and Co did think that he really was on Voldemorts side, they had no information about Peter or inside DE circles.
Did they think that Sirius was a little hero too? Or did they believe the double-double crossing?

About Bella, I tend to think that she knew about Sirius and Peter. She was in the inner circle and might have known some information.

I agree on Bella knowing that Sirius wasn't the traitor. The inner circle knows each other quite well. But that makes me wonder whether Walburga and the rest of the Black family knew as well but didn't see the need to rescue the blood traitor. After all, in their eyes he probably got what he deserved.

[guad]

Originally Posted by Madron

But that makes me wonder whether Walburga and the rest of the Black family knew as well but didn't see the need to rescue the blood traitor. After all, in their eyes he probably got what he deserved.

But it must have come as a big surprise for them. I mean, her first born son gets sorted in Gryffindor, befriends mudbloods and werewolfs, leaves house because he hates pure blood cult, joins the order, and zack, suddenly he turns out to be the biggest Voldysupporter.

Weird.

[Klimatax]

I was thinking about the reason why Sirius would have left his parents house at the age of 16. He himself says he 'had enough, he hated the whole lot of them: his parents, with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practical royal... his idiot brother'.
Now some of you say that the marriages between the Lestranges and the Malfoys were/could have be arranged. When would they be arranged? At what age would the parents decide that their bloodlines would come together by marrieing off their kids? At the age of 16 perhaps? Maybe that's why Sirius ran off. He didn't want to get married arranged by his parents and the parents of pure blood girl. It doesn't fit his nature. He wanted to fall in love, just like James, and he didn't want to marry just for the sake of pure bloodness.

Any thoughts on that, anyone?

[LouisaB]

I think that any arranged marriages would be later, when wizards come of age at 17, but it is certainly an idea. His parents might have been talking about who they were going to set him up with well in advance. Arranged marriages are sometimes planned when the couple are just children after all.

It may be that Sirius was hearing more and more about such an arrangement for him and that was a factor in his leaving home.

Good idea Klimatax.

[guad]

Interesting point. I wonder who Walburga would have chosen as a potential daughter in law.
About the arranged marriages, I don't think that they are exactly a 'forced thing'. I more picture it like the parents of the respective families agree to introduce the kids and if they get along reasonably well, they 'encourage' an engagement. A subtle family pressure can have more effect than a direct order.
I sort of can see the Malfoys and the Blacks having tea together and planning a future for their children Lucius and Narcissa.

[Maiab]

What was the relationship between Sirius and Regulus like?

Well, I have heard that relationships between siblings so close in age are rarely simple. From what we have seen of magical children upbringing they would have been thrown at each others company a lot pre-school, so there may have been some common ground there. OTOH, it seems to me that Sirius was a born rebel and would have rebelled against his parents even before he had basis to judge their beliefs. And he did seem a bit predisposed towards bullying... which younger and weaker Regulus wouldn't have appreciated. I strongly doubt that Sirius would have ever had an opportunity to interact with a Muggle or a Muggleborn before he went to school, so I don't think that his sorting was due to his philosophical oposition to pureblood ideology. He was very open to anything different than what his family preached, though. Lucky for him that his family was horrible and the new stuff was indeed objectively better .

Regulus, on the contrary, was the "good" son, who had a close and easy relationship with his parents - that could only have deepened during the 1-2 years that Sirius was already off to school shocking the family with his sorting and his choice of friends.
Regulus might have indeed envied Sirius his social success at school... but we have to be a bit cautious here, because the "coolness" of J&S was extolled by their friend and groupie. OTOH, Sirius clearly envied Regulus their parents love... his words in OoTP are too bitter for mere contempt, there was genuine pain there.

I do think that while at school their relationship quickly became rather antagonistic, if it wasn't already, and all interaction ceased after Sirius ran away from home.

What are the dynamics between the Black sisters? Is Andromeda still in touch with her pure-blood relatives?

Not with her sisters, IMHO. Her parents may have restored some tenious contact at some point. After all, halfblood grandchildren aren't a total write-off even for the bloodists. They tolerate half-bloods... As to Bella's possible reaction to Andromeda, well neither she nor her husband were killed during VW1, which means that Bella wasn't commited to their destruction, IMHO . I don't think that Bella would want to kill Andromeda without a specific order from LV, but murdering her Muggleborn husband before her eyes could be right up Bella's alley, if the circumstances presented themselves.
Narcissa would just sniff and pretend not to recognise Andromeda if they met, IMHO.

Did Narcissa and Bella marry their husbands for love or were their marriages arranged?

Narcissa - Lucius would have been a love marriage, IMHO, even if both were always conscious of the propriety and advantages of their match. She seems to genuinly care for him in HBP.
Bella? I am not sure why she is married, to be honest. Maybe arranged, maybe "comrades at arms" thing, mutual respect, but no actual warmth.

Was Andromeda in Slytherin? Was her daughter?

Yes. One choice at 11, strongly affected by family influence, shouldn't set person's destiny for life. Nor is the main point of Slytherin's existence to produce villains . I am sure that other non-conventional Blacks from the tree - i.e. the Muggle rights activist, the one who married a Muggle, the one who married a Weasley, etc. were also all in Slytherin.

As to Tonks, I am not sure. I'd like her to be a good Slyth, but the reasons for the known halfbloods to enter Slytherin post-Voldy always eluded me. Before, it may have actually helped one to come ahead in the Wizarding world. But after it would just make one a target for junior DE hazing. I dunno. Still, there is Snape, why not Tonks? She'd have to have a lot of ambition to be the only Auror trainee picked up in 3 years... and her work would certainly involve a lot of cunning.

Why exactly did Sirius leave his family at sixteen?

Irreconcilable worldview differences + Sirius's general rebelliousness + teenage hormons? An explosive mix . The real mystery is why the Blacks didn't drag him back and make his life hell for as long as they legally could... Maybe somebody - DD? Potter senior? stepped in and prevented it.

Did Regulus ask his brother for help before he died?

No. Sirius seems to have reconstructed the events leading to his death from hearsay.

Is Narcissa the good girl because her older sisters chose very radical paths?

Yes. IIRC, the portrait and/or Kreacher did reproach Sirius for getting himself tossed into prison. It does the family reputation no good. I don't think that Bella's parents were any more enthusiastic about her becoming a feared criminal.

Is Grimmauld Place the only Black property and why was it called Mrs Black's house?

A huge mystery. Maybe Sirius II didn't want to live in Muggle neighbourhood and tinkered with inheritance? Who says that our Sirius III was the first to do so? And it certainly wasn't the only Black property, all those other Blacks had to live somewhere, too. I imagine that there are a couple of country manors knocking around, but they aren't entailed like the house is. Personally, I don't see why any bloodist wizard would want to live in such a place, not daring to put his nose outside his own door. And where did the Black children play?! IMHO, the trio and other Weasley children being shut in there for a month in OoTP was pure child abuse.

Why do the Black sisters have either no children or only one child? Is it genetic?

It is one of the many things in JKR's worldbuilding that don't make the slightest sense, but are included to make a point/for the sake of "fun"/to keep things simple.
If we used some common sense, wizards would live in enclaves behind muggle-repelling charms and use their magic freely, rather than cower behind their appartement doors, fearful of tipping off their muggle neighbours. Morever, if they lived in enclaves, purebloods cluelessness about Muggles would have been actually understandable, rather than a wholly implausible source of cheap laughs.
Fanatical purebloods would have many children and wouldn't be dying out. In fact, 3K people are sufficient for a genetically healthy population and 3K number can't even be right as they have more than 500 employees (500 were just "support stuff" in HBP and "task force" in GoF) in the MoM, about 200 professional Quidditch players and even by most conservative count, at least 700 children under 18. Not to mention, that with their transport capabilities wizards wouldn't be so insular and could marry people from abroad.
At least some Muggleborns and Half-Bloods would live in both worlds, making the most of their advantages, which nobody does in the books for some reason. Etc, etc. Stop rant.

Well, we don't even know that Tonks is a single child, her sibling(s) could have been at Hogwarts in PS-GoF with Harry being none the wiser. And as to Malfoy, JKR probably wanted to keep it simple and have him as absolutely spoiled as only a single child could be. From psychologically realistic perspective, don't see Malfoys not wanting a second child to fulfill "a heir and a spare" maxime and/or to have a daughter to make advantagious alliances with and perhaps a third one, for the good of *** pureblood cause. Nor do I see how people who can regrow limbs would have a problem with fertility.

Was uncle Alphard blasted off the tree before or after he left Sirius some money?

After. Sirius was surprised to see him gone, wasn't he?

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

I think that any arranged marriages would be later, when wizards come of age at 17, but it is certainly an idea. His parents might have been talking about who they were going to set him up with well in advance. Arranged marriages are sometimes planned when the couple are just children after all.

It may be that Sirius was hearing more and more about such an arrangement for him and that was a factor in his leaving home.

Good idea Klimatax.

Marriages would not necessarily be arranged between adults only. Some of Sirius' ancestors became fathers with 14! It's entirely possible that the Blacks wanted Sirius to marry a nice pure-blood relative with 16. I like the idea.

[guad]

Originally Posted by Madron

Marriages would not necessarily be arranged between adults only. Some of Sirius' ancestors became fathers with 14! It's entirely possible that the Blacks wanted Sirius to marry a nice pure-blood relative with 16. I like the idea.

Oh my, that would be a very good reason to get out of the house as fast as possible. Imagine if it had been some Millicent Bulstrode mother or Mrs Zabini...

But actually about the ancestors I guess that the time is also a factor. I doubt that wizards would marry in the 20th century with 14, even in so traditionally familys as the Blacks.

[LouisaB]

I always wondered if the more recent father at 14 on the tree might have been an error. Historically even when children are "married" as children they would remain living at home until they were of age. Even though earlier generations in prevoius centuries might have been married at a very early age I doubt that, even as backwards as the wizards sometimes are (wireless instead of the more modern radio for example) they would be marrying their children off before they have left school in the 20th century.

I do think that it is a possible reason for his leaving home though as talk of any upcoming marriage would surely be had and they could have well spent the summers foisting on him one monstrous date after another. Enough to make anyone leave home.

[capella_black]

Originally Posted by LouisaB

I always wondered if the more recent father at 14 on the tree might have been an error. Historically even when children are "married" as children they would remain living at home until they were of age. Even though earlier generations in prevoius centuries might have been married at a very early age I doubt that, even as backwards as the wizards sometimes are (wireless instead of the more modern radio for example) they would be marrying their children off before they have left school in the 20th century.

Yeah, I just have a hard time believing that Bella's dad was really 13 when she was born.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by capella_black

...I wonder if, after he was sent to Azkaban, the rest of the Blacks thought Sirius was guilty? That he had turned and secretly worked for the Dark Lord and killed a dozen Muggles and all that good stuff. It'd be hard for them to believe, but it was hard for most people who knew Sirius to believe. Snape believed it, and he was a Death Eater. Dumbledore believed it, and he's Dumbledore.

Originally Posted by LouisaB

I don't Andromeda would believe it. I get the impression she might have been in touch with Sirius. If she wasn't in touch with him then I think she might have been shocked by the reports but eventually came to believe it.

Bellatrix I don't think would believe it either as she, as has already been pointed out, was in the inner circle and would know the truth.

Narcissa, I think may not have known. It depends how much Bellatrix and Lucius told her.

I'm not sure Lucius would know - after all Draco would seem to have believed Sirius betrayed the Potters - it's what he told Harry. I've mentioned this before (another thread), but on that thread the discussion of exactly how this affected the Malfoys and Blacks would have been considered off-topic. I am quite interested in what the Malfoys thought.

I really don't see any SURE indications that Bella knew about Peter. Sirius never mentions that the DEs in Azkaban called the double-crosser by name. Sirius would naturally assume they meant Peter - not knowing any other possible double-crosser. But considering Bella was so interested in where Snape was on the night Voldy 'fell' and totally ignored Peter, I think it more likely that the DEs were discussing Snape. Sirius just had no idea that Snape might be considered a double-crosser in their opinion.

About Andromeda - one WOULD expect Sirius to have gotten in touch with them after leaving home - however, I really had the impression that he hadn't. Could just be 'my' impression tho' - looking at the quotes (on Willow) again i don't see why I thought that, but then it's missing chunks of text in the books that just wasn't Sirius actually talking. Perhaps I just got that feeling elsewhere in their interacting. Did anyone else think Sirius and Tonks had not met until '95?

-----

Anyway - I am quite interested in what these DEs might have thought - to suddenly believe that he might have worked for Voldy and yet not be informed of it themselves? I doubt that not knowing about Peter would have bothered them, but Sirius was a relative. And knowing he was a DE would have been a bit like the Prodigal Son. Remember that the 'good' son, Regulus was already dead - and apparently because he wanted 'out'. The 'good' son has therefore become the 'not so good' and the disowned has come back to his roots.

But, I would think that once Bella gets to Azkaban she might have been convinced that Sirius was not a DE. But it's hard to tell. Sirius doesn't say he ever spoke to them - only that he listened to them. And I wonder whether they were more 'open' in their discussions because they actually believed he WAS a DE?
--------
In regards to the 'young' fathers - I think it's really that these 'aristocratic' sons were marrying early in an attempt to get the family house (and whatever money might be involved) to go to their children.

I think both of the young fathers married young and had children young, trying to beat their older cousins to having the first son in that generation. In fact, I think Walburga ended up growing up in #12 because her father (Pollux - age 13 when she was born) DID have the first son in her generation (Alphard - whose actual birth year is unknown to us since he's blasted off).

IF the house had gone along normal inheritance traditions the house would have been Orion's (oldest son of an oldest son). Instead the house is inherited down Pollux's line - a youngest son inherited. Possibly because Pollux had Alphard before Nigellus died in '26.

[rhhgrt]

I am sooo glad that this thread was restarted! There is a serious lack of Andy love in fandom.

What was the relationship between Sirius and Regulus like?
Affectionate turned scorning.
What are the dynamics between the Black sisters? Is Andromeda still in touch with her pure-blood relatives?
Andy is not in touch with them, but she will be once Narcissa and Draco have the spaz attack that is so coming to them in book 7.
Did Narcissa and Bella marry their husbands for love or were their marriages arranged?
I think that Cissy and Lucius married mostly for love, and we haven't seen enough of Bella and Rudolphus' relationship to be able to tell.
Was Andromeda in Slytherin? Was her daughter?
Andromeda was in Slytherin (cuz Sluggy said so) and Tonks was in Ravenclaw.
Why exactly did Sirius leave his family at sixteen?
Because they were closed minded and refused to accept him.
Did Regulus ask his brother for help before he died?
I think that he was almost entirely under Bella's spell (no pun intended) and only snapped out ofit at the last minute.
Is Narcissa the good girl because her older sisters chose very radical paths?
She was probably her parent's favorite.
Is Grimmauld Place the only Black property and why was it called Mrs Black's house?
It was called Mrs. Black's house because Orion and Walburga are second cousins (see the tree) and there must be other property.
Why do the Black sisters have either no children or only one child? Is it genetic?
Cissy probably wanted one son to dote n, Andy, I'm not sure, and Bella must not have had time to reproduce, thankfully.
Was uncle Alphard blasted off the tree before or after he left Sirius some money?
After.