Spinner's End #21 - The Mysteries of Ancient Egypt

[navygreen]

Discussion for Spinner's End #21 - The Mysteries of Ancient Egypt by Lady Lupin.

[chey_umbridge]

Wonderful editorial, Lady Lupin! My jaw literally dropped, when I read this, because I had never thought of anything like that. It makes so much sense! If this happens in book 7, I will definitely think of you and your editorial.

[lafemmenissa]

Brava!!! Lady Lupin, you amaze me! Your insights and analasies are so intriguing and no less than brilliant! How do you do it?

I have thought about Bill playing a much larger part in book 7 for a while now. As Harry is setting out to break so many curses, it seems logical to have Bill help him out in some way.
I'm also so impressed by your interpretation of the word "Horcrux." It makes sense to me. Of course, the frech term "de hors" translates into "outside" in English. It is a piece of the soul that's being kept outside of the body... I dunno, just a thought.

all the best,
la femme

[CrookshanksG]

Lady Lupin, I have been positively facinated with Ancient Egypt for as long as I can remember. For me to have the final Harry Potter take place in Egypt, for even just a chapter, would be so GREAT!!!! Bill was always one of my fav characters just because of his Egyptian connection.
Dispite my personal, yet spuratic study into the civilization, I never saw what you saw. But it makes a lot of sense.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, it has been awhile since I had the chance to crack open my Oxford History of Ancient Egypt text, but I believe when a pharaoh dies, he takes his journey to the afterlife in a boat, and the gods protect him (frequently from evil found in the form of a snake). A description of this journey was carved into the tomb of Thutmose III.
I bring this up because of the boat reference. Twice in Harry Potter a boat trip has signified a special journey, advancement in one's own life/abilities. The boat trip to Hogwarts for the first years, Harry's personal journey to become a wizard. The boat trip for Harry and Dumbledore in HBP, after that trip Harry sees himself a more capable wizard, in other editorials the parallel between Dumbledore making Harry feel safe because Harry is with Dumbledore in the beginning of HBP, and Dumbledore feeling safe because he is with Harry at the end of HBP. I know I'm rambling, hopefully some of it is making sense!
Anyway, I feel the significance of journeys in a boat are another connection to Egypt.
And snakes have often been used as an evil incarnate in many civilizations, but particularily in Ancient Egypt does a snake mean death. Hmmm...
Excellent editorial once again, Lady Lupin. One of my particular fav of yours!!!

[HP_hedgehog]

Great editorial! I will have to sleep a night and try to put all the pieces together, but you're presented some great ideas! But when I read the ".. soltice somes a new", I thought of Sirius literally appearing in the Department of Mysteries (which was in the end of june and may have been around solstice, right?) to disappear a little later. I love the idea of him coming back in some form like Sirius (the star) always does!

[T_Brightwater]

Very intriguing, Lady Lupin! It's also interesting to note that the earliest known use of the "external soul" motif comes in an Egyptian story, The Tale of Two Brothers.

You touch on the possibility that Harry's sacrifice may not be of his life, but rather of part of his power. I wonder if it might not be all of it. For Harry, death would mean being reunited with his parents, Sirius, and Dumbledore, but losing his power would mean leaving behind all that he loves and knows, having to return to the Muggle world and basically start all over. Dumbledore said that there were things much worse than death; for Harry, this would be one such thing.

[ColdIron]

I have to disagree with the main conclusion of your article. I don't think we will go anywhere near Egypt. There is no need to, and by now I believe that the series will stay firmly set in the British Isles. Horcrux hiding places have been shown to be linked strongly to Voldemort's past, which is mostly British. His only trips abroad have been forgettable exiles.

Second, the Hor in Horcrux is most definitely a reference to the French word Hors, which means apart from, without, etc. See http://french.about.com/library/motd...orsservice.htm . It signifies that a Horcrux is something removed. In English we use it in terms like Hors d'Oeurves, or Hors de Combat. Egyptian references are stretching the obvious.

The Sirius/Orion reference might be valid. OotP left us with Sirius and the Veil still left as an open point. It is entirely possible that we will see them again. In any case, the naming convention is likely just a smart reference to literature to allow astute readers a bit of a clue to where the character is going.

[Emerald63]

Another great ed, Lady Lupin! Of course I'm kicking myself now for not writing up one of my posts on the "Shamanism in HBP" thread into an ed, because I see it would have been published! D'OH! Well, my own fault. The Egyptian info is out there for anyone to find if they just look. (But kudos on your interpretation, LL.) My sources (for those interested) were Anthony S. Mercatante's "Good and Evil in Myth and Legend" and E.C. Krupp's "Echoes of the Ancient Skies" (Chapter 1). Mercatante also wrote "Who's Who in Egyptian Mythology." And I know there is a History of Magic forum thread on JKR's Egyptian mythology references, or at least one in the Reference Books forum. I checked both and just cannot find it. Blah.

At any rate, I enjoyed your ed and was gratified to see the ideas put out for a wider audience to peruse. Although I'm not sure I agree that any of the characters will actually go to Egypt (even though it would be way cool), simply because there's already so much for them to accomplish in Book 7. Perhaps we'll get another backstory of how Voldemort learned to do the horcrux spell... in Egypt? It could have been easy for him to have an all expenses paid buying trip down there while he was working for Borgin & Burkes. I always figured he'd made the ring a horcrux while he was still a student, but maybe not. Or maybe we'll hear more about Egypt if Harry finds a related clue and questions Bill extensively on all he learned about Egyptian magic while he was there. Lots of cool ways to introduce the idea! But I am with you 100% when it comes to Sirius re-entering the story in some fashion. OotP, the book in which he died, was released on Summer Solstice in the year it came out and I'm betting that's around the time his influence will come back within the Potterverse timeline in Book 7. Yet another reason that... I can hardly wait! Write, Jo, write...!!!

Originally Posted by CrookshanksG

I believe when a pharaoh dies, he takes his journey to the afterlife in a boat, and the gods protect him (frequently from evil found in the form of a snake). A description of this journey was carved into the tomb of Thutmose III. I bring this up because of the boat reference. Twice in Harry Potter a boat trip has signified a special journey, advancement in one's own life/abilities. The boat trip to Hogwarts for the first years, Harry's personal journey to become a wizard. The boat trip for Harry and Dumbledore in HBP, after that trip Harry sees himself a more capable wizard

And snakes have often been used as an evil incarnate in many civilizations, but particularily in Ancient Egypt does a snake mean death. Hmmm...

I fully agree with your boat hypothesis, CrookshanksG. I'm pretty sure a boat trip was at least part of the Pharoah's journey to the afterlife. (There are multiple ways some things happen depending on which myth you're looking at.) It was also part of Ra's journey each night as he took the sun from its setting place in the west back to where it would rise in the east the next morning.

But snakes do not always signify evil in Egyptian myth. They also represent protection, and the cobra was the major symbol of royalty exactly for that reason. Anyone who's seen King Tut's funerary mask will remember the cobra (and vulture) that is ready to strike featured on it. And, as in many ancient cultures, the snake also represents rebirth because it sheds its skin and is, therefore, "reborn." The snake I think you're speaking of on the journey to the afterlife is Apophus, indeed a very evil, even demonic, creature.

There's also one more boat ride Harry takes that signals a huge change in his life - the one that takes him as a Muggle boy to the Hut on the Rock in PS/SS and the subsequent one he takes with Hagrid when they leave. It's the same boat, but on the return voyage he knows he is a wizard and the boat is propelled by magic. I just love that symbolism!


Again, LL, thanks for passing on all this very cool info!

[KathyH]

Lady Lupin, all I can say to this editorial is WOW. I'm not sure that Egypt will be a setting for any part of Book Seven, as we have yet to leave the British Isles so far, but I am completely amazed with what you have come up with. The parallels between Sirius, Bill, Egypt and Harry are masterful, and if even half your speculations turn out to be true, then we are looking at a very exciting book..not that it wasn't going to be great anyway.

[hermionefan01]

I think 'wow' fits the 'bill' quite nicely. haha yes, sad as that was, I absolutely loved your essay LL. You sort of put together all the threads that haven't really been discussed all at once before. One thing that wasn't too prevalent though was how the other major characters fitted into the idea: DD and Snape. I know you said you didn't try and pinpoint that exactly, but I hope you can enlighten us with your views at some point

Hmmm by the bye, is the Saharah desert anywhere near Egypt? Because sometimes Quidditch players do go missing and turn up there. . . That would quite nicely link Quidditch with Egypt then, what with Hussan Mustofa being umpire too. Was Bill ever on the team?

Well, something to mull over anyway. Cheers for another great read!

[CrookshanksG]

Originally Posted by Emerald63

I fully agree with your boat hypothesis, CrookshanksG. I'm pretty sure a boat trip was at least part of the Pharoah's journey to the afterlife. (There are multiple ways some things happen depending on which myth you're looking at.) It was also part of Ra's journey each night as he took the sun from its setting place in the west back to where it would rise in the east the next morning.

But snakes do not always signify evil in Egyptian myth. They also represent protection, and the cobra was the major symbol of royalty exactly for that reason. Anyone who's seen King Tut's funerary mask will remember the cobra (and vulture) that is ready to strike featured on it. And, as in many ancient cultures, the snake also represents rebirth because it sheds its skin and is, therefore, "reborn." The snake I think you're speaking of on the journey to the afterlife is Apophus, indeed a very evil, even demonic, creature.

You are quite right, Emerald63, I don'y know how I could have forgotten the cobra and the symbol of rebirth (which has already been done in HP, snake-like Voldemort's "rebirth" in a way in GoF).
Yes, Apophus. Thank you.
The scarab is another symbol of rebirth, in Khepera (sp?). But the only beetle we know in HP is Rita Skeeter, and I don't see us meeting her again.

[Emerald63]

Originally Posted by hermionefan01

Hmmm by the bye, is the Saharah desert anywhere near Egypt? Because sometimes Quidditch players do go missing and turn up there. . . That would quite nicely link Quidditch with Egypt then, what with Hussan Mustofa being umpire too. Was Bill ever on the team?

Actually, other than the Nile River valley, all of Egypt is part of the greater Sahara Desert. It runs from almost the west coast of northern Africa all the way over to the eastern edge of northern Africa where Egypt lies. I don't recall missing Quidditch players turning up there, though. Was that from "Quidditch Through the Ages" by any chance? I seem to remember Charlie was the Gryffindor Quidditch team captain in his day, but I think Bill played as well.

Originally Posted by CrookshanksG

The scarab is another symbol of rebirth, in Khepera (sp?). But the only beetle we know in HP is Rita Skeeter, and I don't see us meeting her again.

Now I don't know how I could have forgotten! I agree, though, that Rita would probably not fit the bill as a scarab whether we see her again or not. The scarab was a symbol of eternal life and for a very strange reason - the scarab is also known as the "dung beetle" because it "makes a living" from rolling balls of animal dung to its den and consuming anything in it that didn't get fully digested the first time. Exceedingly gross, I know, but the idea was that this critter could take the "death" of whatever had been eaten and use it to continue its own lifecycle. Anything that can live off recycled death must have some connection to eternal life.

While I can easily see Rita living off of... droppings... by getting, er, "stuff" on people and publishing it, I don't really see how that could ever be defined as related to anything as lofty as eternal life. Maybe she just goes to show that it takes all sorts to keep the human race as a whole going. At least that's the best I can come up with for now!

[jorjapaige]

To quote Ron in the movies, "That was bloody brilliant". I could never have imagined any of the detail and research you put into your editorials. Thanks for all the hard work and the extra things to ponder while we wait for the real thing!!

[Freddie437]

Lady Lupin, I love this editorial. though I'm not sure about them going to egypt, i do think it is possible. ColdIron, do we really know that Voldemort didnt go to Egypt? Isn't there a period of his life where we dont really know where he was? Anywho, I love all the parallels, and i think it would be awesome if some of your predictions happened, because it would make so much sense. I love the boat stuff from CrookshanksG and Emerald63 too. That's awesome.

[mweasley721]

Very well written editorial! =D It's great seeing Harry Potter and Egyptology (two of my favorite things!) being pulled together in such a way.

Sure, there are some things that could be disagreed with (as proven in the above posts). But it's all speculation anyway, right? This was a very well supported speculation, and you don't find those too often.

Great job!

[GryffinWildmage]

To quote the film version of Ron Weasley, that was 'bloody brilliant'! I like history in general (except American; do you know how much they water it down in U.S. schools?), and Egypt was my first real introduction into that. I love the idea of a confrontation in Egypt, and of Sirius and the Veil still having a part to play. Excellent job and keep up the good work.

[sriharish]

Now this is a cracking theory and this is Possible. We cannot deny any of the facts in this editorial.

However i've always wondered where Heliopaths come from (you know the sprits of fire Luna was talking about)- i think they are connected to Egypt Veil/Horcruxes or something along those line.

We may also see Goblins guarding something precious for Voldemort - because we do not exactly know whose side they are (Read OOTP).

[Wimsey]

I really don't think that Bill will play any large role in VII. There are several reasons for this. First and foremost, Harry has resolved to do what he must alone, plus Ron and Hermione. Harry won't be telling members of the Order, and that includes Bill.

Second, what is Bill's specialty? Curse-breaking. What are the primary skills are curse-breaking? Among other things, arithmancy. We almost certainly saw Dumbledore performing arthmancy in the Cave: Harry had never seen this sort of magic, and at his advanced schooling, that means it must be from arithmancy, runes or Muggle studies. (The alternative is that Dumbledore was doing some branch of magical theory not taught at Hogwarts; however, why in the world would he keep such knowledge to himself?) I think that we can rule out the last, and even if we cannot rule out the second, we'd reach the same conclusion: Harry has a whiz on the basic subject with him in Hermione.

Third, how could it be plausible for Bill to know things about ancient Egypt that would pertain to Horcruxes? We have no evidence that Bill knows much about Egypt in particular: he was there to break curses. We have no reason to think that Bill knows anything at all about Horcruxes: they seem to be extremely arcane knowledge. If Bill had this sort of knowledge, then JKR should have given us some indication by now. At any rate, if people like Bill were going to know these things, then more people than Voldemort and RAB should have figured out how Voldemort survived!


Finally, what is the "Horcrux mystery" that Harry must unravel? Unless we resort to special-pleading, we know that Harry knows how to destroy a Horcrux: physically break ("kill") it. Indeed, if there was going to be anything special about the Diary in this regard, then it should have been especially difficult to break, as Voldemort was risking exposing it to a possessed child, and any number of things could happen to it accidentally before the possessed child finally deposited it safely in the Chamber. Thus, the Diary should have had physical protections that the others lacked, if such things were possible.


What Harry needs to know at this point is, where are two more places that Voldemort would hide a Horcrux? Once he finds them, he then needs Hermione to unravel the magical traps. (Ron certainly will contribute something, but I have no idea what: JKR neglected to develop any obviously pertinent skills for Ron the way that she did for Hermione.) Now, might Egypt be such a place? Possibly: but we have no indication to date that Egypt was ever important to Voldemort.



Oh, and Sirius (the dog-star, not the dog-wizard) does not disappear from the skies as summer wears on! Indeed, it rises earlier and earlier, and it became the most prominent star in the night sky of late autumn. Also, it no longer becomes a morning start around the solistice, but instead nearly two months later, due to long term astronomical patterns. The more recent phrase "the dog days of August" springs from this, as Sirius rises shortly before the sun in August. It was believed by the Romans that it's extra heat made the days a bit warmer than they were. (That's what you get for drinking water from lead pipes, I guess.) Sirius comes to "opposition" in January or February: if you live in the Northern hemisphere, it is the extremely bright bluish white star fairly low in the southern sky on a winter night. If

Of course, it is possible that JKR's astronomy is outdated, but given that she knows that Europa has ice and that Io has volcanoes, it seems that she pays a little attention!


As for Bill, he is a quaternary character. Bill served his thematic purpose in HBP. That is a story about right vs. easy choices concerning who we include in our lives. One is given the impression that the attraction between Bill and Fleur is simply superficial. Indeed, the thematic contribution is not made by Bill, but using Bill. Fleur, who is developed as an extremely superficial individual. We expect her easy choice to be to want out of her engagement to Bill after he is mutilated. To our surprise, she makes the hard but right choice because, surprise, surprise, she genuinely loves the guy.

(Bill, himself, receives almost no development: indeed, most of what we learn comes through the contrasting characterizations by Molly and Ginny, and that actually tells us much more about Molly [she does not know her kids well but thinks that she does] and Ginny [she's actually a pretty sharp judge of character] than it does about Bill.)

So, given the nature of this series, it really is too late to use Bill in this way. We are half-way through the final story: the cards should be on the table at this point, but JKR has not shown any for Bill. Egypt might have some role - we have a lot more to learn about Voldemort - but Harry won't need Bill to take advantage of that knowledge. I'd bet on Albania before Egypt, however!

[LadyLupin]

Hello all. Lady Lupin here. I saw this was posted today so I wanted to check in on the comments.

First, CrookshanksG - excellent point regarding the boats. Thanks for that.

ColdIron - very good point about Hors - how did I miss that? And me, a COOK!! You may well be correct, in which case I'm totally off base. We shall see.

Whimsey - what can I say? You always keep me on my toes. I don't agree with all of your assessments, but you make excellent points. And certainly, the stars are in a very different alignment now than they were in ancient Egypt. That said, many stories and legends about them derive from that era.

Thanks all for your comments and happy sleuthing.

Regards,

Lady Lupin

[mommcgonagall]

Lady Lupin,
You always amaze me!! Well done, well done, and bloody brilliant!!!

Many have said that the Bill-being-a-curse-breaker thing will come into play, and I believe it will happen--for one of the horcruxes! I'm in the mind that Harry will again rely on Ron and Hermione for most of his support, to mirror book 1, but he must get a vast amount of information from other sources first--say from Aberforth, Kreacher, Bill, Dumbledore's portrait, and many others.
I do love your well-researched editorials and look forward to each new one while we patiently wait for the finishing of book 7.
Once again, well done!!!

Mommcgonagall



Weasley is our king!!
No Quidditch in Movie 5--what are they playing at?