Who put Rosmerta under the Imperius Curse?

[snapegirl]

I'm going to suggest that maybe the reason we don't hear about the Malfoy trip to Hogsmeade is that it would give too much of the story away too soon. If we saw Draco cursing Rosemerta or even acting fishy in Hogsmeade before term started, I think it would have been to much. We have Snape, Narcissa and Bella talking about some mission of Draco's in Spinner's End and we have Draco ditching his mother to go to Borgin's and Burke's. That's enough to peak the reader's interest and keep on eye out for clues, but anymore imformation then that would be overkill.

That IMO is the best point of the lot. I mean she knew that her son was badly stuck and that there was no way out, so she decided that she would go to every limit to help him and she decides to help him in every possible way...and imperuizing Rosmerta was just a part of it.

Thanks mysterious!

[IgoRetla]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

Not that straightforward. To have gone to Hogsmeade by himself would have taken him ages as he lives in the south-west of England and Hogsmeade is up in Scotland. As he can't apparate yet and it would have been a long flight on his broomstick, his mother would have noticed his long absence.

Originally Posted by mysterious

Did you ever consider the Knight Bus?

They were with Snape for only a few hours, and that time frame is very small for Draco to visit Hogmeade (even if he uses The Knight Bus), imperuize Rosmerta and come back.

Floo Powder. Fifteen minutes--there, Imperiusing, and back. All that Narcissa has to do is take a shower, and Draco's gone.

Originally Posted by Abhishek_K

hmmm.... the desperate mother angle (interesting )again the only drawback is that there is no mention of it. Plus as far as I think Aunt Bella would have let the cat out of the hat in front of Snape (considering that it was done before the Spinner's End trip).

What makes you think that it was before the Spinner's End trip? I didn't see a calendar anywhere.

And perhaps the reason that we didn't see anything happen in Hogsmeade is because Harry wasn't there...and 99% of the story is from his perspective.

[shadowdogs]

Quote:
I still can't figure out how he knew about the DA Galleons. Umbridge didn't get that far with Marietta Edgecombe--but that's another thread.


Good point! I daresay it is another thread but it does tie in with how he did the Imperiussing. Was it all his own idea or did someone else suggest it to him? Which would mean someone who knew about the DA.

He probably knew about the galleons from spying on Hermione. I think she was talking about them in the Great Hall. Did Hermione talk about accessing the three broomsticks through Umbridge's fireplace in front of Draco? I think she did. That office would belong to Snape in book 6 (which would give Draco access to it; he wandered into Snape's potions office at will in Book 5). Also, Snape doesn't use the DADA office, so it would be unoccupied. That is, maybe he floo-ed over to Rosmerta directly from Hogwarts.

As for that whole Rosmerta/Amy Stone/RAB issue. Heck, for all we know, Rosmerta IS RAB

[snapegirl]

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

He probably knew about the galleons from spying on Hermione. I think she was talking about them in the Great Hall. Did Hermione talk about accessing the three broomsticks through Umbridge's fireplace in front of Draco? I think she did. That office would belong to Snape in book 6 (which would give Draco access to it; he wandered into Snape's potions office at will in Book 5). Also, Snape doesn't use the DADA office, so it would be unoccupied. That is, maybe he floo-ed over to Rosmerta directly from Hogwarts.

As for that whole Rosmerta/Amy Stone/RAB issue. Heck, for all we know, Rosmerta IS RAB

Draco may have heard Hermione talking about the DA galleons. But, I disagree with your idea about the fireplaces. First, Hogwarts in HBP is under tighter security than it was in OOTP. If I remember correctly, when Harry and company went back to school from the Burrow after Christmas break using floo powder, it was mentioned that it was a one time thing. So I don't think the firepaces in Hogwarts were connected to the floo network anymore.
Second, Snape did stay in is old office, but where then would Slughorn go? I assumed he took the old DADA office. Therefore, it wouldn't be unoccupied.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by snapegirl77

I'm going to suggest that maybe the reason we don't hear about the Malfoy trip to Hogsmeade is that it would give too much of the story away too soon. If we saw Draco cursing Rosemerta or even acting fishy in Hogsmeade before term started, I think it would have been to much. We have Snape, Narcissa and Bella talking about some mission of Draco's in Spinner's End and we have Draco ditching his mother to go to Borgin's and Burke's. That's enough to peak the reader's interest and keep on eye out for clues, but anymore imformation then that would be overkill.

Hey that is an excellent point, I mean she could not give any of that clue because things would seem too fishy and it would be a straight forward give away.

Originally Posted by IgoRetla

Floo Powder.

Only problem with that is that the Fires were being watched, especially the ones of the Death Eaters therefore any visit by a member of the Death Eater's family would be tracked and if Draco went to three broomsticks for sometime and returned then the Ministry would try and track down his pursuit and the plan would fail. So they had to perform in the most normal way and what better than a shopping trip using the knight bus...

Originally Posted by snapegirl77

Draco may have heard Hermione talking about the DA galleons. But, I disagree with your idea about the fireplaces. First, Hogwarts in HBP is under tighter security than it was in OOTP. If I remember correctly, when Harry and company went back to school from the Burrow after Christmas break using floo powder, it was mentioned that it was a one time thing. So I don't think the firepaces in Hogwarts were connected to the floo network anymore.
Second, Snape did stay in is old office, but where then would Slughorn go? I assumed he took the old DADA office. Therefore, it wouldn't be unoccupied.

Some excellent point.

[sweet16]

i don't think that the firesplace idea would work as since the fight in the ministry the security has been tightened. so no-one would be able to travel in that way.

[Kharina]

I'd imagine it was Draco and McGonagall was mistaken. I'm not sure if someone else can Imperius a person and then hand over control of them to you for a start, and I doubt it was Snape as Draco won't entrust him with anything concerning his mission.

How did Draco do it? We know by the end of HBP he's been using Polyjuice Potion for Crabbe and Goyle to stand guard for him. All he'd have to do is put some of his own hair into Polyjuice and get Crabbe/Goyle or another student to drink it for him and play his part during McGonagall's detention, while he takes a potion with their hair in it (or indeed anyone else's, but they would be safer) and goes to Hogsmeade that way.

[magicgirl_06]

DRACO MALFOY!?!

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by magicgirl_06

DRACO MALFOY!?!

Your reasons for it.

[maylet]

For me it was Draco

[shadowdogs]

All he'd have to do is put some of his own hair into Polyjuice and get Crabbe/Goyle or another student to drink it for him and play his part during McGonagall's detention,

Just picturing Crabbe or Goyle trying to finish Draco's homework to McGonnagall's satisfaction...

True, the Ministry is all about security, but they are a bit bumbling. The DADA floo was usable and unwatched because of Umbridge. I'm sure somebody put an order in for it to be watched again, but I wouldn't be surprised if this order were buried in a stack of paperwork somewhere, waiting for a series of 48 separate stamps or something.

But maybe Draco just walked out. It's not a prison after all. Maybe he asked Snape if he could leave for a few hours.

[snapegirl]

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

True, the Ministry is all about security, but they are a bit bumbling. The DADA floo was usable and unwatched because of Umbridge. I'm sure somebody put an order in for it to be watched again, but I wouldn't be surprised if this order were buried in a stack of paperwork somewhere, waiting for a series of 48 separate stamps or something.

But during HBP, everyone in the Ministry accepted that Voldemort was back. I think they wouldn't be as bumbling when it came to Hogwarts security. Besides, I assumed that Dumbledore himself placed a large amount of security measures on Hogwarts.

[shadowdogs]

True... I think I mean to say that, no matter how much security is on Hogwarts, people still manage to sneak in and out.

It's true that Narcissa doing it for him would be the easiest way, but would he have let her in on his plans? (sorry if you've already discussed this)

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

Maybe he asked Snape if he could leave for a few hours.

He never accepted Snape's help and therefore he would not have done that here as well.

Originally Posted by snapegirl77

But during HBP, everyone in the Ministry accepted that Voldemort was back. I think they wouldn't be as bumbling when it came to Hogwarts security. Besides, I assumed that Dumbledore himself placed a large amount of security measures on Hogwarts.

Not only that...I think that the Fire places were disconnected from the wizarding world...because when they had to return to Hogwarts then it is mentioned that the Ministry had to fix a one-of connection to Hogwarts...now if it was not disconnected then why did they have to fix it...therefore it would be safe to presume that they had disconnected Hogwarts entirely.

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

people still manage to sneak in and out.

They manage to that within the Grounds itself but not outside... for if any one had to move in an out of the grounds a professors had to help the person out, therefore not possible.

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

sorry if you've already discussed this

Don't bother...since discussion is always repetitive.

[shadowdogs]

They manage to that within the Grounds itself but not outside... for if any one had to move in an out of the grounds a professors had to help the person out, therefore not possible.

oh, but loads of people do it. Fred and George, Harry, the entire rescue mission, the marauders, Crouch Sr. Not to say that Draco did sneak out (that's only one of many possibilities), but if there was a way, he could have found it, and there always seems to be a way.

I know he doesn't want Snape helping out, but it seems like him to be known for asking special favors like leaving the castle when no one else is allowed to.

What if he went and did it right from the train? Then he just would have been a bit late, and he wouldn't have had to carry the dangerous object into school. He could have given it to Rosmerta then and told her to hand it to the first Hogwarts girl to go into the ladies' room (whenever that might be)

[snapegirl]

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

oh, but loads of people do it. Fred and George, Harry, the entire rescue mission, the marauders, Crouch Sr. Not to say that Draco did sneak out (that's only one of many possibilities), but if there was a way, he could have found it, and there always seems to be a way.

All these examples were before the extreme security of HBP.

I know he doesn't want Snape helping out, but it seems like him to be known for asking special favors like leaving the castle when no one else is allowed to.

I don't think Draco would have asked him for anything.

What if he went and did it right from the train? Then he just would have been a bit late, and he wouldn't have had to carry the dangerous object into school. He could have given it to Rosmerta then and told her to hand it to the first Hogwarts girl to go into the ladies' room (whenever that might be)

Well, we know Draco smashed Harry's nose and left him on the train. Draco was probably one of the last people to leave after that. I doubt he could have ran to Rosemerta, cursed her, give her the necklace and instructions with out missing the carriages.
When Harry gets back to the Great Hall after the train, it seems like Draco arrived with everyone else and without incident.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by shadowdogs

oh, but loads of people do it. Fred and George, Harry, the entire rescue mission, the marauders, Crouch Sr. Not to say that Draco did sneak out (that's only one of many possibilities), but if there was a way, he could have found it, and there always seems to be a way.

I know he doesn't want Snape helping out, but it seems like him to be known for asking special favors like leaving the castle when no one else is allowed to.

What if he went and did it right from the train? Then he just would have been a bit late, and he wouldn't have had to carry the dangerous object into school. He could have given it to Rosmerta then and told her to hand it to the first Hogwarts girl to go into the ladies' room (whenever that might be)

Well, to get into Hogwarts in HBP through the gate, you have to have a teacher open it for you. Even Tonks couldn't get in, you remember. So if Draco managed to sneak out at any time he wouldn't have been able to sneak in again. And as someone pointed out, he's not likely to ask Snape for help. He can't use the secret passages as they are being watched, he can't use the floo network as Hogwarts is disconnected, so he can't really get out.

If he took the necklace to Rosmerta from the train that would mean he was expecting not to be able to fix the cabinet and he hadn't even tried yet! If he had gone into Hogsmeade from the train to imperius Rosmerta he would have been late back to school and Harry would have seen him.

The key issue is: why did Draco need Rosmerta to be imperiussed? It seems that it was to tell him when Dumbledore was out of school so he could get the DEs in. In which case it had to be done before or right at the beginning of term because if he was expecting to fix the cabinet quite quickly then he would need to know when Dumbledore was out of the way fairly early on. If he only needed her to be imperiussed to pass the necklace on the Katie (or anyone) he would have had to get out of school and done it because that was a panic measure when he found the cabinet difficult to mend.

The thought of Draco and Narcissa on the Knight bus fills me with deep joy btw! I really can't see them on public transport at the best of times but exchanging cheery remarks with Stan & Ernie and being thrown about the place? I love it!

[SnapeAndSirius]

Draco put her under the curse after practicing it on the Muggle Junior Minister, since it was a "poorly-performed Imperius curse."

[phoenixashe]

I don't really see how Draco could have put her under the Imperious curse. BEsides the time ramifications, Is Draco really strong enough to perform an unforgivable curse? If you remember in GOF Moody said that they were to young to be able to perform an unforgivable, and Harry was unable to perform one at the end of five, when he tried to use crucio, he produced mild pain, but he could not execute the full spell. Are we really supposed to believe that less than six months later, Draco is able to pull off the imperious curse when he has shown no exceptional ability up until now? I find that hard to believe. Someone else must have put her under the spell. Bellatrix perhaps? Draco has obviously been seeing her since she had taught him occlumency, so it is very possible she was helping him with this. She would have been very eager to help because she was trying to get back in with Voldemort.

[shadowdogs]

I wasn't surprised at all that he could do the imperious curse. He's good at occlumency, which is difficult, because it's part of his personality. He's good at bossing people around. He believes that people ought to do what he wants them to, which seems important. I mean, Harry, the one who's packed with love, was able to use crucio (and it was painful, just not incapacitatingly so). With the right (that is, wrong) attitude, I think Draco could to it. Also, he must have some kind of magical ability to even think about using expelliarmus on Dumbledore, whom he was imagining would fight back.

Has the prospect of a guilty wand been discussed on here? If he did do the imperious, and the plan worked, the imperious curse would have been discovered. Do you suppose the Ministry has the right to do priori incantatum on random students' wands? Or that they would think of it if they did have the right?