Underground Lake #38 - What If We're Wrong?

[navygreen]

Discussion for The Underground Lake #38 - What If We're Wrong? by Brandon Ford.

[Perman]

Oh yeah, first!

Thought-provoking, though you're not the first one to come up with this, all though I haven't thougth about the mechanisms on obvious and simple versus unprobable and complex concerning this, you might just be right..

However, this is a such a central topic, that I at least see one curveball such as him betraying Voldemort or something like that, as Snape really doesn't seem like a conformist, only a pragmatist who on the surface conforms.

[priggy]

Thanx for the link. I coun't find it on the main underground lake page and wondered where it was.
I thought it was a really good editorial and really thought provoking. I have no idea whether Snape is good or evil or on his own side. The simplest usually the best and right answer. i also don't see how Snape could redeem himself but then again i do believe he does not want to be on Voldemorts side but is scared of him enough to do anything and say publicly that he doesn't support Voldemort even if publicly is just doing something against Voldemort that olny Voldemort will know who it was.
he could redeem himself by helping Harry find the Horcruxes but i don't think he would do that or even know of them.

[Emmasj]

Fabulous editorial! As always. ^^

The only thing I disagree with is that Hermione is the only one who could believe TFP is still on the good side - there's always Remus Lupin. He fought for TFP against Harry and others many times, and once the grief for Dumbledore starts to ebb away, I think Remus will realize the main issue in the TFP-is-Evil thing.

The reason Harry gave for Dumbledore trusting TFP, was that TFP regretted James and Lily dying.

Yet TFP was working at Hogwarts for over a year BEFORE they died.

I'm holding onto the hope that Remus will see this, and realize - they are still missing a huge piece of the puzzle. WHY did Dumbledore trust TFP ? If given a chance to learn this by speaking to TFP directly, I think Remus would give him time to explain.

But back to what was said . . . I support TFP back, forth, and back again, but I've wondered the same thing. What if I AM wrong? Well, to start, my entire highschool would come find me and rub it in my face. I would be heart-broken - but of course, the story belongs to JKR. And in the same way she killed the H/Hr ship, she's writing the story the way she wants. I'd just have to accept that.

But maybe we won't!

[Hedwig_June]

I also agree that Hermione is not the only one who would believe in Snape's loyalty to DD. In fact, I had an idea last night (in the shower, as usual): what if LUNA, in one of her imaginative tagents, comes out with the "Snape-is-not-evil" theory. Everyone else would just give her the *stunned-rodent look* and forget about it. Later on, heliopaths turn up to fight the Big Battle, or something, and.......well, anyway, you get the idea. If you happen to stumble across something like that in Book Seven, it MIGHT just be a clue.....

As to the main idea of the wonderful editorial, I have had that question in my head for one year, three months, and two days. And I keep it in my head, so as not to take a stand on the loyalty issue, because the last thing I want to do is be proven WRONG.

[Dariel]

Hey everyone. I havent posted since the release of book 6, but im back and have a few things to say. First Brandon, great job as always. And whoever told u your editorials were to long can keep it to themselves. U help keep the HP spirit alive, so the longer the better.

K so now to my thoughts. I have always thought of snape as the character i love to hate. After getting over the shock of DD dieing, i have reread the book tring to peice some things together. And one thing that i havent seen anyone talking about (srry havent read everyones post since book six release so someone might have alrdy said this) is the unbreakable vow. NOT with narcissa and Snape however, I believe that Snape made a vow to Dumbledore. I believe dd told snape that if it came Between harry's life and dd, to make sure harry was safe. Think about it. There is a very breif couple of seconds between the time snape walks out the door pushes draco aside and then kills dd. It says somewhere in there that snape looked into the eyes of dd with the upmost discust (or something like this i dont have my book handy for refrence). This last statement should open some eyes, What are both Snape and DD masters of? Get my point yet? Ok, for the stragglers, they are both masters of legenimenz ( or however its spelled(reading of eachothers minds)). I think within the 2 maybe 3 second glance dd told snape where harry was, and that he was to weak to keep harry safe for much longer. So what does snape do? the only thing he can. He upholds his vow with dracos mother, he kills dd (which i believe dd knew it had to be done way before it happened), and hurries to get Draco and all the other Death eaters away from harry. Snape knew that as soon as dd was dead the spell holding harry would be broken, and that to make sure harry doesnt remove the cloak and revill himself to the DE that he needed to be quick on getting everyone off the tower.

Well, srry its long but theres a summed up version of my theory ive had. But i also want to say one quick side note. I did read a post of someone from prob a while ago about what voldemorts main goal is, now the poster put world domination. Now im not disagreeing because one thing voldemort is obsessed with is power, however if u go back to HBP, it says that voldemorts main goal in life is life itself. His goal is to become immortal. Death is voldemorts greatest weakness, dd always said it was. Voldemort believes that death is a muggle burden and anyone that dies is to weak. And since he believes himself to be the most powerful wizard in the world, he believes himself to strong for death, so he goes to great measure to make sure he cannot and willnot die.

[GryffinWildmage]

Excellent editorial. I like your reasoning, especially since it supports my camp as well - the smaller, or at least less vocal camp that is convinced 'TFP' isn't on anyone's side, except his own.

[aliceandjasper]

Brilliant editorial! You were able to write down what I couldn´t. Since reading book six I struggled to solve the mystery that is TFP. On the one hand it is obvious that HE is "evil", I mean it is staring at our faces, he KILLED Dumbledore!!! But on the other hand it is that same fact that convinces me again that TFP is "good" - just because otherwise it would be too easy...

JK Rowling really is a genious...

[Spritey]

*brain asplodes* Wow... Snape is... still as complicated as ever, it appears. It's too obvious one way, but then it's obvious the other way, too. He killed Dumbledore, like you said. It should be obvious. But at the same time, it's far too easy.

Urm *has nothing intelligent to say* But a big "word" from me on the subject of Snape and how there is absolutely nothing he could say which could explain what he did to the OotP. I'd hate to be in his position, whatever side he's on.

[Mellilot]

My problem with your too obvious reasoning is that to begin with I thought it was too obvious that he was ultimately good. There are only a few things that are repeated in every single book, only a few things that just about every single adult wizard has said "Dumbledore trusts snape" is one of those (along with "Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort ever feared, something deffinately shown to be true). Also if we're talking plot formats; it's okay for the old guy with the beard to die - but it's not okay for him to be wrong, or for him to die because of a mistake he made.

I agree, however, that Snape will never be redeemed in his lifetime, and I believe he will die before the end of the series. He will not die trying to save Harry. Harry himself swore that the period of his life in which people died to help/save him was over. Snape will die, and after his death some form of diary, or agreement between him and Dumbledore, or maybe even a memory left somewhere (how better to keep a memory from Voldemort but remove it and store it in a crystal bottle?) will be uncovered...

As far as I can see the simplest solution to the problem is that Dumbledore was right, Snape wants to help Harry et al.
Brillaint editorial though, and I prefer a long, welll argued read.
I've never seen Rickman's portrayal of Snape. Snape is still one of the most impressive characters in the series.

[grackel13]

Excellent piece, as always. As a fairly agnostic-leaning-toward-Snape-is-good person, there is one main sticking point not mentioned here: Jo's response during an interview, in which she's asked about the pattern of "redemption" in Snape:

Questioner: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
Rowling: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. That's all I’m going to say.

Of course she doesn't answer the question, but her "stunned" reaction makes it seem as if the idea of redemption will be incredibly important, and is on target.

On the other hand, what in the world is Snape doing that's so important that it's worth Dumbledore being killed?

[Lady_Sirius]

Ooooeerr! Excellent editorial as always! I'm pretty sure this thoery was one thrown out with all the others.. But point taken - it could be simple.

One hopes though, that after a 6-book buildup, there's more to it than "yes he is irrevocably evil, he's not redeemable" and all that! The charactor of Snape that we've all come to know may just seem mysterious because he hasn't been laid bare like Voldemort was in book 6, like Harry has been through all the books. I mean, until we get to see what a person's been through in life, background and home life, don't we wonder what might have made a person go bad?

Umm anyway, I dunno, I think there are three obvious possibilities:
1)He's all for Dumbledore
2)He's all for Voldemort
3)He's all for himself

Of course, those could be broken down into many different possible scenario's (vows, promises, love for Lily etc...).

I hope JK manages to weave it into something interesting... i mean after all these rumours, if it isn't a good story, it's going to be disappointing. (maybe that's why I stay away from all the fantastical sounding ideas when i'm thinking... then again, fat lot of good that did for me with the horcruxes!) Thank god JK's a fantastic writer!

At the end of all of that... nothing intelligent to add! Hope the theories continue anyway!

[hcnbedbugs]

Originally Posted by Mellilot

I've never seen Rickman's portrayal of Snape. Snape is still one of the most impressive characters in the series.

Wait... What????
You have NEVER seen a HP movie???

[Gre_Magus]

I always love the Underground Lake, Brandon. I read HP through the Order of the Phoenix and liked it, but never gave it much thought. But after I was floored by the ending of HBP I got on the ol' internet to see what people thought about it and discovered Mugglenet and those "world famous" editorials. Underground Lake is definitely one of the best - I even love the writing style. Quick and engaging, but very thoughtful and thought-provoking.
I've got to jump in with my thoughts on TFP, though. Based on what Rowling has said in several different interviews (especially the one in NYC where she said Dumbledore is definitely dead) I'm convinced that TFP is not good but also not on Voldemort's side. I think he is meant to be one of the most complicated characters in the series and that he is very important for the overall message Rowling is trying to communicate.
As you read the comments Rowling's has made over the years one thing comes through very clearly: she is not interested in writing "childrens' stories" where nothing bad really happens. This especially comes out in her attitude towards death. Death is the one of the worst "bad" things that can happen - it is the absolute end of the possiblity of being physically in the presence of someone or being able to communicate with them. Even before Rowling announced it, I was sure that Dumbledore was really dead and I knew that Sirius was not coming back (but I might still be wrong!), because in real life no one can come back to life (at least not recently) after dying - I just couldn't imagine that Rowling was going to "cheapen" death by going against that rule in her books. That's not to say that Rowling does not admit some possibility of life after death - remember Dumbledore's comments about death being a great adventure and Luna's about hearing the voices from beyond the veil - but the living cannot know anything certain about it.
What does all this have to do with the FP? He killed Dumbledore, which, whatever the reason, is a horribly violent act that tears the soul in two. He did not, however, kill or capture Harry while escaping from Hogwarts. Despite his lame attempt to explain why he left Harry behind, I feel like he is not truly in allegiance with Voldemort. He is only in allegiance with himself. TFP is not a good person - he is spiteful and small and vindictive - but he is also not interested in being some Dark Lord's lackey. Remember, when he was fighting with Harry on the way out from Hogwart's, the one thing that really riled him up was when Harry called him a coward. TFP has a rather large sense of himself. But if he doesn't serve Dumbledore or Voldemort, what drives him? I think we'll all be surprised by that. Rowling has done an excellent job of hiding his true thoughts and intentions from us as well as the other characters in the book.
I think that TFP as not-good but not in league with Voldemort actually gives him the most depth and interest. Remember, he's in some ways worse than Voldemort, as Rowling says, because he was loved but he still turned out pretty selfish. Will he be redeemed? I honestly don't know. In keeping with Rowling's remarks about how some people really are just bad, he may not. He may just chose to continue to be selfish and spiteful. But maybe not.
Sorry about the length of the comment, once I started I really got in to it.

[Lady_Sirius]

Originally Posted by grackel13

Excellent piece, as always. As a fairly agnostic-leaning-toward-Snape-is-good person, there is one main sticking point not mentioned here: Jo's response during an interview, in which she's asked about the pattern of "redemption" in Snape:

Questioner: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
Rowling: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. That's all I’m going to say.

Of course she doesn't answer the question, but her "stunned" reaction makes it seem as if the idea of redemption will be incredibly important, and is on target.

On the other hand, what in the world is Snape doing that's so important that it's worth Dumbledore being killed?

Hi
I had a thought on this....
Jk also said in another interview (can't remember which sorry, read way too many!) that Snape has been loved so that makes him more... umm something... for his actions. The gist of it was that he's felt loved, been touched by that good feeling, knows wrong from right, has a moral compass (of sorts - it's questionable if it's snape) so when he does something wrong, he knows it. That's one thing about Snape that's made very clear. He's very accurate and perceptive, very deliberate. So when he makes a mistake, he does it knowingly. My point is, maybe this is what he did, kept doing in the past... until it cost him something he didn't intend on losing. [loved-lily shippers insert loved/lost lily here]

He's been given many chances and he blew them until Dumbledore took him in and BELIEVED in him.

Bravo Gre_Magus! and yay i'm not the only one!

Oh boy made it long again..
right, gonna sit back and watch now

[pottersleuth200]

Im glad you pondered the other side of the coin as I have done several times because I too believe that Snape is good, but I dont like surprises. And I agree that Alan Rickman's portrayal of Snape is so good, I believe it influences how I think of him. However, I believe that Snape, whether good or evil, will have a CONVINCING redemption at the end. Yes, I believe he dies, and yes, I believe that he will die saving Harry. I believe Jo has singled him out to be the big redemption message. I believe it will become a moot point whether he is actually good or evil. I think he is mostly a survivor, trying to do the best for himself in a world in which he has never truly found a niche. Not totally good, not totally evil, playing both sides, never at rest. He is a sad character. Ok, he is mean to little children, that makes him a little less sympathetic but overall, a sad character.

[Mellilot]

Originally Posted by hcnbedbugs

Wait... What????
You have NEVER seen a HP movie???

Nope. Never. I'll make up my own mind about the books before I watch one. I won't be able to do that until well after the last book.

On slightly different note - I was looking for quotes, when I came across what is possibly the best hint ever;

"Severus Snape was pulling off the Invisibility Cloak, his wand pointing directly at Lupin.

(opposite page)
-CHAPTER NINETEEN-
The Servant of Lord Voldemort"

Am I the only one who likes a good juxtaposition?

[pottersleuth200]

Oh and Dariel, I agree with your theory completely, and mellilot, Alan Rickman is awesome as Snape!

[Gre_Magus]

Originally Posted by pottersleuth200

I believe it will become a moot point whether he is actually good or evil. I think he is mostly a survivor, trying to do the best for himself in a world in which he has never truly found a niche. Not totally good, not totally evil, playing both sides, never at rest. He is a sad character. Ok, he is mean to little children, that makes him a little less sympathetic but overall, a sad character.

Good point, especially about him being a sad character. I think of Snape as someone who is very powerful and has a high opinion of himself but when it comes down to it is actually a spiteful and mean (in the sense of miserly and narrow-minded) person. But rather than hating him, I kind of feel pity for him. Which is exactly what he DOESN'T want other people to do. Remember how he reacted to Lily standing up to James for him?

[Lady_Sirius]

Originally Posted by pottersleuth200

Oh and Dariel, I agree with your theory completely, and mellilot, Alan Rickman is awesome as Snape!

Alan Rickman got me through the first two movies! He is awesome.. sometimes i think he might have some Snapish characteristics to be able to play him so well...

Originally Posted by Gre_Magus

Good point, especially about him being a sad character. I think of Snape as someone who is very powerful and has a high opinion of himself but when it comes down to it is actually a spiteful and mean (in the sense of miserly and narrow-minded) person. But rather than hating him, I kind of feel pity for him. Which is exactly what he DOESN'T want other people to do. Remember how he reacted to Lily standing up to James for him?

He is a sad pitiable character.. but that's what's so annoying about him - he could have done so much better - he chose to wallow in bitterness and regret - damn him!

LS