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The Cloak and the Sword



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  #1  
Old November 12th, 2006, 6:54 pm
blaqlives  Female.gif blaqlives is offline
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The Cloak and the Sword

Discussion of the editorial The Cloak and the Sword by Eric Ianson.


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  #2  
Old November 12th, 2006, 7:32 pm
outsidessence outsidessence is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Very very good, ed. ideas click nicely. My only concern is the Memerson interview- and the Heir of Gryfindorr thing. Also Harry is not a Horcrux!! Still the Sword and the cloak idea is almost too good to be true!!!


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  #3  
Old November 12th, 2006, 7:56 pm
Rubber_Ducky  Female.gif Rubber_Ducky is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

If Dumbledore had to go to Godric's Hollow to get the sword and the cloak on 'The Missing Day' then why did he leave Harry there. Wouldnt he have taken Harry away from the ruins of the house when he went there instead of sending Hagrid to get him? So unless you're suggesting that James hid the sword somewhere else, I have to disagree, but if that is what you're suggesting then i think that's a good idea.


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Old November 12th, 2006, 8:00 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Interesting editorial. You make some good points, particularly where the contents of Dumbledore's office are concerned. You also posit a possible way that Voldemort could have made Harry into a Horcrux when that wasn't his intention at all.

But if Dumbledore went to the house at Godric's Hollow to get the sword after Lily and James' deaths, why didn't he get Harry at the same time? Why leave him there for Hagrid? Since James apparently didn't use the sword against Voldemort (no real canon aside from the fact that the voice Harry identifies as James doesn't say anything about it in Harry's dementor-memory)--well, anyway, since Hogwarts was safer than the Potters' house, why not leave the sword with Dumbledore in the first place? I'm sure there are many things in that office that Dumbledore doesn't keep on display.

I'm also not convinced that Gryffindor has to have an actual BLOOD heir. It's Slytherin, after all, who's so concerned with bloodlines. Gryffindor wasn't, and that's why they fell out. I think it's quite possible that Harry, Muggleborn mother and all, is Gryffindor's heir because he embodies the virtues that Gryffindor valued (bravery, certainly, and compassion and the ability to value people for who they are rather than who their parents might be). Whether you or I are right, Dumbledore's speech after Harry gets the sword in Chamber of Secrets still applies.

Dumbledore never mentioned to Harry the possibility that he--Harry--might be a Horcrux. What do you think might make Harry think of it?


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Last edited by Shewoman; November 12th, 2006 at 8:03 pm.
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  #5  
Old November 12th, 2006, 8:08 pm
ptrut12345  Undisclosed.gif ptrut12345 is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

My main issue is that if James had had time to cover the sword with a cloak, why the cloak? Why not protect Harry, the one Voldemort was coming for? Or all of them? And if Dumbledore can see under cloaks, what is to say Voldemort would not, as well. Also, what would motivate him to hide the sword? Was Voldemort advertising that he needed magical objects from the Founders? I doubt it. Doesn't really gel.

I am convinced Dumbledore had the sword in his office, Harry just didn't notice it at first. I mean, his office is full of interesting stuff. Harry doesn't see the Pensieve, but I'm sure it was in the room, in CoS. I think DD had to own it for Harry, asking for help, to receive it from the Hat.

What I have thought was that the cloak was used by DD to hide someone (like a protection for the Secret Keeper) and DD found it outside the house, where Wormtail might have left it (thinking Sirius Black had left it there).

Also, I'd like to add that if I were going to hide an object, I'd put it in the vault at Gringotts. It's more likely to stay safe there than at home where the threat level lies. Just a thought.

I just don't really follow this train of thought. There are holes in every theory out there. I just hope Jo shows us the way when book 7 comes out.



Last edited by ptrut12345; November 12th, 2006 at 8:11 pm. Reason: Added thought.
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  #6  
Old November 12th, 2006, 8:10 pm
plusdracoequals plusdracoequals is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

I'll be honest, "Harry Is A Horcrux" theories irritate me. But, I gave yours a shot, and it was OK.
I would have preferred it more had you answered two additional questions.

Those being:
1.) If Harry IS indeed a Horcrux, why is Voldermort trying to kill him?

2.) Wouldn't Voldermort have had to use up one or even two of his Horcruxes in attempting to regain his body? (I am ofcourse referring to his parasite-like form in the back of Quirrels head and then his final re-materialization in GOF)


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Old November 12th, 2006, 8:15 pm
Kailin  Undisclosed.gif Kailin is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Very interesting! I'm not at all sure about James using the cloak to cover the sword, but I do believe that he had the sword in his position. I recall something JKR said in an interview, that we would find out what James did for a living, and that it was significant. Since James was wealthy enough to avoid a 'traditional' job, I've suspected that he was a treasure hunter of sorts who went looking for ancient wizarding items. It wouldn't surprise me if he had come across the sword in that context.

And... since there are a number of horcruxes for Harry to hunt, perhaps James had also managed to collect the Hufflecup and who knows what else. Voldemort wasn't just looking to AK Harry, he was wanting his Horcruxes back!


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  #8  
Old November 12th, 2006, 8:16 pm
ptrut12345  Undisclosed.gif ptrut12345 is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Quote:
Originally Posted by plusdracoequals View Post
2.) Wouldn't Voldermort have had to use up one or even two of his Horcruxes in attempting to regain his body? (I am ofcourse referring to his parasite-like form in the back of Quirrels head and then his final re-materialization in GOF)
I never thought you "used up" a horcrux to rematerialize. He never had one present (unless you count the possibility of Nagini being one) at his rebirth. He had himself, bone of father, blood of enemy, and hand of servant. Unless one of those was a horcrux, that's not meshing.

I see the horcruxes as separated anchors, tying a soul to the world. As long as the main soul (that in the body) has these anchors keeping it to the world, it is possible to regenerate after the body is destroyed. I don't see them as rejuvenation pills or something. That's just my opinion, however. I'm sure there is much that could be said on this matter.


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Old November 12th, 2006, 8:29 pm
rosamonde  Female.gif rosamonde is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

That was a clever way to weave together several different theories, but I still don't buy into the "Heir of Gryffindor" idea.

The question of whether blood, or ancestry, should be considered important is one that Jo Rowling has strongly and decisively opposed throughout the Harry Potter series. The Death Eaters and Voldemort believe that their family trees make them superior to others, and this is continually shown to be false and dangerous philosophy. It makes sense for the primary villain to be the Heir of Slytherin. Gryffindor, however, valued bravery over purity of blood. Harry is a "true Gryffindor" because he is brave and he chooses to do the right thing even when it is difficult. He is, I suppose, the metaphorical "heir" of Godric Gryffindor, but I seriously doubt that Harry will turn out to be an actual descendent.

I also think it's pretty clear from canon that invisibility cloaks are used to hide people, not objects. It seems more likely to me that Dumbledore had the cloak in order to hide someone "more completely than you can possibly imagine." As others have suggested, one intriguing possibility is that Dumbledore hid someone close to Snape (his mother, perhaps) when he started working for the Order, as this would also explain why Dumbledore trusted Snape.


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  #10  
Old November 12th, 2006, 9:00 pm
american_allie  Female.gif american_allie is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

I didn't think that this editoral backed up its points well. They never explanded why Harry needed to be a Horcrux to fit the theory and intuition is not a good way to call out a red-herring.


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  #11  
Old November 12th, 2006, 9:07 pm
HP_hedgehog  Male.gif HP_hedgehog is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Ok, interesting, though your beliefs that Harry is a Horcrux are completely separate from your sword-theory. Maybe nothing Horcrux-related happened at Godric's Hollow and Voldemort did make his final Horcrux when he resurrected? Also, Jo has said many times that snakes will be important in book 7 (see one of the most recent leaky posts) and one of the already registred titles was "Harry Potter and the Parseltongue Trophy". This may not mean a lot, but it does mean that there's gonna be snakes...

Btw, if Dumbledore went to Godric's Hollow, who on EARTH did he think he was to let a BABY lie there for almost an entire day or at least HOURS? I always assumed Dumbledore for some reason did not know the Secret and therefore, Hagrid could pick up Harry, but Dumbledore couldn't. Love your sword/cloak theory though. But I think it is likely that James didn't hide it at Godric's Hollow, but somewhere.. safer? Maybe at Gringotts? Letting everyone believe who could break in that the vault was empty..? Except for Dumbledore... but I think we can be sure of one thing, which is that Harry was more important than a sword, Gryffindor's or not, Horcrux or not. He said it was his first priority to keep Harry alive.

EDIT - you might also be interested in Lady Lupin's Coeur de Lyon editorial.. something else on the Heir of Gryffindor, something original... but it may enfeeble your statement that James had the sword because he was a descendent... but he could've got it anyway, that's not impossible.

And something else... last desperate bid to shoot down the Harry is a Horcrux theories. Voldemort's soul can't live inside Harry! He couldn't even touch him! He couldn't possess him! Even if Harry had been a Horcrux, the soul part would've been killed instantly! Only his scar is a possibility, but Dumbledore says Voldemort can't feel it is any of his Horcruxes is destroyed. He can't feel it! He has no connection with them, only if he dies and they prevent him from dying! But he has a connection with Harry, which I think is not Horcrux-related but merely becuse he had marked him as his equal.. forgive my fierceness


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Last edited by HP_hedgehog; November 12th, 2006 at 9:15 pm.
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  #12  
Old November 12th, 2006, 9:35 pm
Weaslicious  Female.gif Weaslicious is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

I'm not sure whether or not I do think Harry is a horcrx, but there are some questions: Why would Voldemort want Dumbledoer to kill Harry at the Ministry of Magic in the OoTP if he knew that would be destroying one of his Horcrux's, and also, if Dumbledore can see through Invisibility Cloaks, then wouldn't Harry be able to as well? And he did kill James, so he did have his soul ripped in two, so Harry could be the horcrux, and maybe there isn't even a last anfinal horcrux, because Voldemort's soul was ripped when he killed James, so what if when the spell rebounded, it only killed one piece of it, meaning that he just lived through the other piece, which already destroyed one part ofhis supposed 7-part soul. Good editorial.


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Last edited by Weaslicious; November 12th, 2006 at 9:42 pm. Reason: More ideas
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  #13  
Old November 12th, 2006, 9:43 pm
AcesPatronus  Undisclosed.gif AcesPatronus is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Well, I really liked your essay and was nearly completely agreeing with you except that I dont think harry is a horcrux. Then I read what some people on here said and they all had some good thoughts too. I really like what Shewoman said about Harry being the heir because he embodies everything Gryffindor stood for.

I was thinking about the lost day and do you think that maybe the missind day was simply that Dumbledore arrived with Hagrid and the got Harry. Then Dumbledore went to Privet Drive and working invisibly he set up all the magic and what not and then left to make arrangements and such with various other people that we don't really know about and this whole time he had Hagrid take Harry to Madam Pomfrey or someone and had him looked over to see if anything had happened to him that we couldn't see. Like horcrux and weird spell things. Idk... its just a thought.


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  #14  
Old November 12th, 2006, 9:54 pm
eianson  Male.gif eianson is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Hey folks,

I am the author of the editorial and I'll reply some time later tonight to the specific comments. Some bring up good points I did not consider, but I think adjustments to my theory could account for. Others I have considered and there are reasons why I think I am correct. Again, I'll try to put something out later tonight.

Oh, and thanks to those who said they liked the editorial.

Eric


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  #15  
Old November 12th, 2006, 9:56 pm
fields24  Male.gif fields24 is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

All of the other aside, I believe that the sword has always been in the hat.
At least since Godric Gryffindor placed it there sometime before he died. Just because there may be no great significance placed on the power of the idea
of and Heir of Gryffindor does not mean that he at least placed significance
in traditions of a family name and inheritance of property. Such as the passing
down of Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw items.


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  #16  
Old November 12th, 2006, 10:23 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

ptrut, you raised some good questions.

plusdracoequals, I don't think a Horcrux is used up when the person who created it survives what should have been a fatal attack. I think it's more like the Horcruxes are anchors that keep the part of the soul that's in Voldemort's body earthbound (as opposed to going behind the Veil or something similar). It's like the weights on a grounded air balloon. Those weights aren't destroyed every time they anchor the balloon; they just keep it in place whenever needed.

We saw a Horcrux destroyed in Chamber. It was intentional. It didn't occur because of an attack on Voldemort or Riddle; Harry drove the basilisk fan directly into the Diary.

HPHedgehog, I would think Dumbledore didn't know the Secret and so couldn't go to Godric's Hollow until the Charm was lifted. But then how did Hagrid know how to get there? Did he not make it until the Charm was lifted (and how did that happen?) And if that were the case, why didn't Dumbledore go himself?

Weaslicious, why would Dumbledore's being able to see through Invisibility Cloaks mean that Harry could? Dumbledore has said that he doesn't need a Cloak to become invisible, but Harry does.


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  #17  
Old November 13th, 2006, 12:51 am
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

An interesting theory, but not one I can agree with. Leaving aside whether or not Harry is a Horcrux there is still the problem of why would Dumbledore go to Godric's Hollow to retrieve a sword and leave Harry, whom Dumbledore must have realised by then is the subject of the prophesy? If Dumbledore did go to Godric's Hollow why was it necessary for Hagrid to go?

Sorry, but I cannot support this theory. To me, there are simply too many unanswered questions brought up by it which need to be answered before I could accept it as a possibility.


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  #18  
Old November 13th, 2006, 1:22 am
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Interesting editorial but like many others I find the theories have a few holes in them.

Re Albus and seeing harry and Ron under the invisibility cloak in Hagrid's Hut. Perhaps he can see through these cloaks or sense people's presence or perhaps as a mind reader read Hagrid's mind and found out that harry and Ron were there under the cloak that way. I can't imagine Hagrid blocking that thought out so Albus could have found out that way too.

Re the heir of Gryffindor and the blood angle. Heirs don't necessarily have to be blood descendants. An heir can be nominated by another heir. If Albus was one of Gryggindor's heirs or even a descendant then he could nominate Harry as one too especially if he had no offspring of his own. Harry has prove himself worthy of being Gryffindor's heir time and time again so far hasn't he...

Re the matter of Albus getting the cloak from the house in Godric's Hollow.
I think that if Albus went there he surely wouldn't have left Harry there alone but if he went with Hagrid as other have said and Hagrid took baby Harry to Madam Pomprey it could make sense. However as we know Hogwart's is in Scotland why did Hagrid fly over Bristol unless that's where Madam P lives during the holidays and it was the holidays???? Or is there something else? Is Godric's Hollow out past Bristol or is Little Whinging somewhere near there?????

Re Harry being a Horcrux. If he was and accidental one then Voldemort is unaware of this fact and that is why he keeps on trying to kill him as we know he's not that stupid enough to destroy his horcruxes. However since he couldn't bear touching Harry in the first book and in OOPT in the MOM building has some problem again with Harry and possession.

Re the sword and the cloak matter and the Godric's Hollow incident. The Sorting hat is also a relic of Gryffindor's. he left two - the sword and the hat which is why Harry pulled the sword out of the hat - a bit like King Arthur and the sword from the rock. I can't imagine James having the sword in his house but remember Grigotts can be broken into too (remember the stone) so I would imagine the safest place would be the Headmaster's office at Hogwarts. If Voldemort wanted to make a horcrux at the Potter's house would he have made one with James' death or was he saving it for Harry's death? I would have thought he midght have brought with him the object with which to hold the horcrux. Maybe his own wand perhaps as he would have this with him at all times and so it would be very hard to destroy it as a horcrux. Also why have a dead baby as a horcrux although once buried I guess it would be very safe in a grave as not many would want to dig up dead baby and detroy it.

We have too many questions and not enough answers........bring on Book 7 for the answers (hopefully).


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Old November 13th, 2006, 2:11 am
sriharish  Male.gif sriharish is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

First of all I want to tell you that Harry is not a Horcrux otherwise Voldemort would not have wanted to kill him, secondly the purpose of a Horcrux as we heard from Dumbledore is to hide somewhere safe- as we are sure Voldemort did just the same thing with the other Horcruxes like the ring which was well hidden and protected with powerful enchantments (with exception of Diary). And also the creation of a Horcrux can never be un-intentional. Its important to understand how Voldies mind works



Therefore Gryffindor sword is definitely not a Horcrux, you are suggesting that Dumbledore is stupid enough not to recognize something that dark in his own office??? Whatever Dumbledore has in his office are his own possessions Sword, Fawkes etc. And it has been shown in the books that Harry is truly loyal to Dumbledore and the School which makes it obvious that Dumbledore must be somehow linked to Godric Gryffindor. We know that potters were in Order of the Phoenix, may be its Dumbledore who suggested the perfect hiding place would be Godrics Hollow.


Albus Dumbledore did not get Cloak from potter’s in Godrics Hollow. James might have given it to Dumbledore before going into hiding. Also Lily Potter was an exceptional potioneer - i'm sure this piece of information comes into play in Book 7.


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  #20  
Old November 13th, 2006, 2:15 am
gavina  Male.gif gavina is offline
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Re: The Cloak and the Sword

Once again I find myself compelled to throw a large brick at a theory.

The main problem here, and I was surprised no-one else prior to me has commented on this, is that Dumbledore clearly stated that the Invisibility Cloak came into his possession before James Potter died. This, indeed was the basis of JKR's postulated question. Had Dumbledore acquired the cloak after James dies, as the editorialist clearly states, then there would be less benefit in speculation.

That Dumbledore was given James's cloak before the events at Godric's Hollow is the question that needs exploration according to Ms. Rowling

Counter that if you can...

PS I do not adhere to the Harry is a Horcrux theory at all for the simple reason that had Dumbledore suspected Harry or his scar were a Horcrux he had no particular reason not to inform Harry of this during their discussions on Horcruxes.


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