The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero V2

[Morgoth]

After a good start with all three threads, we've now reached version 2 of the Hero thread. The only change to the guidelines below is that I have included a link to the forum rules in the thread.

Version 1 can be found - here. The last few posts from version 1 can be found below.

Snape the Hero The object of this thread is to discuss Snape's heroic/good guy qualities in the books. Obviously some people will believe that this idea flies in the face of all we have come to perceive Snape to be through the books, particularly after events in Half-Blood Prince. However, there is a proportioon of fans, maybe quite a large proportion, who do have some interesting theories that are worth reading. As this is a discussion of Snape's heroic character, the rules are as follows: The Snape Debate Rules First and foremost, be aware of the Forum Rules. If you do not believe Snape is a hero/good guy and see him as a villain/bad guy, please do not post in this thread. Post in THIS thread. Discussion can be as broad and unique as possible, but canon is always welcome to support your theories. Do not coerce, coax or use subtle linguistics to bait opposing members into responding. The Official Staff Sponsors for this thread are, Nicole, Alastor D, Rapunzel, Inkwolf, Jessica , leenielou and MadMagic The Warning System - First Offence - Two Warning Points - Five day ALL thread ban - Second Offence - Two Warning Points - Thirty day ALL thread ban - Third Offence - Thirty day ban from CoS Forums. Note: Rather than ban the individual from one thread, the ban will cross all three threads. Rules Around the Use of Sponsors These sponsors are not to be used by pro/anti brigade to obtain warnings for the other side. 'Agenda pushing' will not be tolerated. If I see any evidence of coercing or baiting staff intio warning one person because they are part of the other side, I will overrule the warning. When communicating an issue to a sponsor, ensure you copy ALL sponsors in on your owl. You may address a specific sponsor who will be responsible for replying to you. Named sponsor will copy in the other sponsors in their reply to you and so on. This allows transparency between all of us. Sponsors may discuss your issue before replying, so please give them time to respond to you. Sponsors will, where they can, participate with members in debate. They are fans of the books and will interact as much as possible. When they enter staff mode it will be obvious due to their change in tone. Understand that they do this to keep the debate flowing, not because they are taking things personally.

So I would like to make an added plea to opposing viewpoints. Please do not disrupt the flow of this thread. You do not need to do this. If you wish to 'argue the toss' with another member, do it away from CoS Forums. Otherwise allow people to discuss Snape the Hero in peace.

Many thanks.


Last few posts from version 1.

SKasparRollins:    

---

Originally Posted by lorna I think this is an excellent point. I would think this as much as a magical reason is why both Snape and Dumbledore are able to tell when they are being fibbed to or not told everything. I've often thought that Legilimency is probably the most "realistic" magic - in that it's based on the most important lie detection technique - eye contact. Basic Legilimency, like basic lie detection, can, evidently, be performed without a wand as Snape and Dumbledore are able to detect lies and betrayal of emotion quite easily by simply reading the person's face and looking into their eyes. What lots of kids don't realize - and I mean most kids - is that teachers ALWAYS know when students are lying - I know this being both a child of a teacher and with experience in lying about homework and other things. It's part of the reason I love Snape so much as a character - he uses basic lie detection techniques to PROVE students are lying, and punishes them for it, and it's so obvious that he knows they're lying that they don't argue.

wimblemimble:    

---

Welcome Hufley! I see you have already been welcomed by Ignisia who seems to have a lot more free time than me as of late, however I have finnaly gotten back to CoS after about two months or so. Suprisingly there isn't that much to catch up on.Aparently I am not suscribed to the right threads. I think that Snape would make a wonderful dectective. He always catches Harry in a lie, even back in books two and three when we didn't know very much about that branch of obscure magic that everyone and their grandmother seems to know about. What I really like about Snape is that he not only knows when Harry is lying, but he calls him on it. He doesn't let him get away with smarting off unlike a majority of the other teachers. But because of the way those other teachers treat him he seems to think that it is his right to be treated special and allowed to talk during class, because after all, he is discussing how to sneak into places he isn't allowed so he can single handedly save the school or win the Triwizard Cup.

Huffley_love:    

---

Originally Posted by wimblemimble Welcome Hufley! I see you have already been welcomed by Ignisia who seems to have a lot more free time than me as of late, however I have finnaly gotten back to CoS after about two months or so. Suprisingly there isn't that much to catch up on.Aparently I am not suscribed to the right threads. I think that Snape would make a wonderful dectective. He always catches Harry in a lie, even back in books two and three when we didn't know very much about that branch of obscure magic that everyone and their grandmother seems to know about. What I really like about Snape is that he not only knows when Harry is lying, but he calls him on it. He doesn't let him get away with smarting off unlike a majority of the other teachers. But because of the way those other teachers treat him he seems to think that it is his right to be treated special and allowed to talk during class, because after all, he is discussing how to sneak into places he isn't allowed so he can single handedly save the school or win the Triwizard Cup. Somewhat. But then again, Snape really does hate Harry, becuase Harry is related to James. So while he doesn't let Harry get away with things, he doesn't let Harry get away with ANYTHING. Besides, Harry doesn't think he's above rules...he's a teenager. Come on, don't tell me you've never talked during a class, especially when something exciting is going on. Harry's life is one big exciting. Also, he lets the Slytherins get away with anything, which shows he is an absolutely biased teacher. I think McGonogal fits your description better than Snape...while she doesn't hate Harry, she doesn't let him goof off in class. But this isn't a McGonogal discussion thread, so I won't go into that any more. Anyway, thanks for the welcome!

Lorna:    

---

Originally Posted by Huffley_love Somewhat. So while he doesn't let Harry get away with things, he doesn't let Harry get away with ANYTHING. Besides, Harry doesn't think he's above rules...he's a teenager. Come on, don't tell me you've never talked during a class, especially when something exciting is going on. Harry's life is one big exciting. Also, he lets the Slytherins get away with anything, which shows he is an absolutely biased teacher. Personally I think every teacher in this series has shown "bias" in favor of Harry so perhaps Snape just provides the balance. And in an old boarding school system like this one....you bet didn't get to "talk in class" etc etc in manner you might find in a North American school.

mysterious:    

---

Originally Posted by ignisia The foe-glass is one of my favorite reasons to believe Snape is a good guy. He shows up there with McGonagall and Dumbledore. I find that difficult for any naysayer to explain away. Well to Barty Crouch Jr. all the Death Eaters who were out of Azkaban were enemies, so no wonder Snape showed in it. Originally Posted by Huffley_love Does the foe glass react on who you think is your foe, or who is really your foe? Because I was under the impression that it acted completely independent from any of your thoughts or opinions. The Foe-Glasses can be fooled into acceptance that so and so is your enemy. Originally Posted by SKasparRollins It really surprises me that he attended Slughorn's party, he seems more the type to look cynically at everyone while standing alone in the corner. If truth be told I suspect that he was either forced or joined because of a personal motive, I don't have any idea currently but I will look into it definitely. Originally Posted by SKasparRollins I've often thought that Legilimency is probably the most "realistic" magic - in that it's based on the most important lie detection technique - eye contact. Basic Legilimency, like basic lie detection, can, evidently, be performed without a wand as Snape and Dumbledore are able to detect lies and betrayal of emotion quite easily by simply reading the person's face and looking into their eyes. What lots of kids don't realize - and I mean most kids - is that teachers ALWAYS know when students are lying - I know this being both a child of a teacher and with experience in lying about homework and other things. It's part of the reason I love Snape so much as a character - he uses basic lie detection techniques to PROVE students are lying, and punishes them for it, and it's so obvious that he knows they're lying that they don't argue. I guess all of those who doubt various versions of Legilimency should read this, it might help change your opinion.

[Inkwolf]

Mmmm, need my morning dose of Snapery goodness....anyone?

[ignisia]

YAY! Thanks for the new version, Morgoth! *boogies down* The discussion is thrivin'!

Inky, I need my daily dose too.
Ooooh, we could talk about Snape's role in book 2!
Or...uh....his early life!
Or how he became a Death Eater!
Or......well, there are a lot of things...

[NatsuBunny]

hi everyone. i'm new. but i've read somewhere..can't exactly remember where..somebody's comments on Snape's facial expression when he performed the AK on Dumby in HBP. Snape's face was etched with hatred and revulsion. My thoughts are that Dumbledore asked Snape to make him the same promise that Harry made to Dumbledore before accompanying him to get the fake Horcrux. That no matter what, Snape would, as Harry promised, obey Dumbledore's orders.
If you would look back to part where Dumbledore was drinking the potion, Harry's feelings were EXACTLY the same as Snape's facial expression.
After Dumbledore drank half of the fourth goblet, he stopped and Harry had to force him.
"HATING himself, REPULSED by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that DUmbledore drank the remainder of what was inside."
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was HATRED and REVULSION etched in the harsh lines of his face."

Harry obviously couldn't see what HIS face looked like while he was pouring the potion down Dumbledore's throat.
I think Snape was therefore acting on DUmbledore's orders as well.
Remember the end, when Harry chased after Snape and tried to Sectumsempra and Levicorpus him? and Snape gave Harry advice that both Dumbledore and Snape has been trying to teach him all this time " Blocked again and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" I think it was a hint Snape was trying to give Harry. If you cant even hurt me with a SINGLE spell, Potter, how the heck do you think you'd be able to kill Voldy?

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"
Harry had no idea how much Snape had to go through, if Harry had thought it hard to force Dumbledore to drink potion, how much braver did Snape have to be to KILL Dumbledore.

So es. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.

[JadeDragon]

I would like to believe this too, in fact, these were my thoughts, almost exactly, as I read HBP the first time. If it is true, Snape would certainly be the best teacher Harry is likely to ever encounter.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by NatsuBunny

hi everyone. i'm new.

Welcome to CoS and Hero thread.

Originally Posted by NatsuBunny

Remember the end, when Harry chased after Snape and tried to Sectumsempra and Levicorpus him? and Snape gave Harry advice that both Dumbledore and Snape has been trying to teach him all this time " Blocked again and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" I think it was a hint Snape was trying to give Harry. If you cant even hurt me with a SINGLE spell, Potter, how the heck do you think you'd be able to kill Voldy?

Exactly. Snape knows as much as Dumbledore (or more) about how Voldemort works. He knows that Voldemort is cunning and will do all he can to kill Harry. And that's a lot. He wants Harry as prepared as Harry can be.

Originally Posted by NatsuBunny

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"
Harry had no idea how much Snape had to go through, if Harry had thought it hard to force Dumbledore to drink potion, how much braver did Snape have to be to KILL Dumbledore.

I think their actions were about the same (though Harry's was different in that he didn't know what the potion did, whereas Snape knew exactly what would happen when the AK hit) but it's true that if this was a plan, killing Dumbledore has to be one of the bravest things Snape has ever done (and he's done some pretty darn brave stuff. Turning away from Voldemort and going back to him in GoF in the face of almost certain death come to mind). He has just sacrificed everything: His job (both of them), his home, his freedom, his position, his protector, his friends, and the trust of the world. He's a fugitive now, and has to be at the constant beck and call of a snake-faced loony who will torture him whenever the whim hits.

Originally Posted by NatsuBunny

So yes. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.

It's very probable. Snape has very little to lose.
I'm still holding out hope, though. *crosses fingers*

Originally Posted by JadeDragon

If it is true, Snape would certainly be the best teacher Harry is likely to ever encounter.

Amazingly dedicated!

[lorna]

Originally Posted by NatsuBunny

If you would look back to part where Dumbledore was drinking the potion, Harry's feelings were EXACTLY the same as Snape's facial expression.
After Dumbledore drank half of the fourth goblet, he stopped and Harry had to force him.
"HATING himself, REPULSED by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that DUmbledore drank the remainder of what was inside."
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was HATRED and REVULSION etched in the harsh lines of his face."

" Blocked again and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" I think it was a hint Snape was trying to give Harry. If you cant even hurt me with a SINGLE spell, Potter, how the heck do you think you'd be able to kill Voldy?

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"

So es. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.

Hey shiny new thread.

When I was reading HBP the similiarity in the words used to describe Harry's feelings and Snape's expression struck me immediately. They are also a darn strong indicator
of where the story's going as well. I just don't think Rowling used similar descriptions for similiar incidents by accident.

Coward is just about the last thing Snape is. Even though I thought it just about the
dumbest thing Snape ever did....you have to admit going down into the Whomping Willow on the advice of an enemy...well there is a certain amount of "bravery" involved.
I think Harry's comments aren't surprising though. Most people don't see "bravery" unless it's obvious and in their faces.

Sadly I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Snape does the "ultimate sacrifice" although I kind of hope he gets to live ..somehow.

[SnapeFan2]

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"
Harry had no idea how much Snape had to go through, if Harry had thought it hard to force Dumbledore to drink potion, how much braver did Snape have to be to KILL Dumbledore.

So es. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.[/quote]


EXCELLENT POST. Just what I was feeling too, and you put it very eloquently. Thanks.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by NatsuBunny

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"

Coward was the last thing Snape would have wanted to hear, he had just distanced himself from the order and reclaimed himself the title of a traitor. He had just got his soul split for the sake of the order and for all this sacrifice what he was getting was being called COWARD. This was not fair and his reaction was totally justified and this is one of the reasons why I expect him to be a hero.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by mysterious

Coward was the last thing Snape would have wanted to hear, he had just distanced himself from the order and reclaimed himself the title of a traitor. He had just got his soul split for the sake of the order and for all this sacrifice what he was getting was being called COWARD. This was not fair and his reaction was totally justified and this is one of the reasons why I expect him to be a hero.

Absolutely! Like Scout and Jem in To Kill A Mockingbird, Harry has to learn that courage isn't a man with a gun/wand in his hand, and that is the most powerful thing that Snape can teach him.

[gorgie101]

Ha New Thread! Yeah!

Okay so I was thinking that Snape at Slughorns party was such a wallflower! Actually he kinda makes me think of my husband at parties. All he does is sit in a corner and drink his scotch and watch everyone else dance! Anyway...

I was really struck by the language used by JKR in comparing Snape in as much pain as Fang. I was so sad when I read that! ( I love all animals so I can totally symathize) Snape just has to be good. I too thought that Snape might die in book 7 but when JKR said one person got a reprive the first on that came to mind was Snape. I hope so!

Hey question for the thread: How do you guys think Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

Just some thoughts! Happy Thanksgiving!

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by gorgie101

Okay so I was thinking that Snape at Slughorns party was such a wallflower!

I think he was forced to come to the party seeing that almost all Staff members were there therefore he could not refuse it.

Originally Posted by gorgie101

How do you guys thing Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

I think he got the name Snivellus because of his greasy appearance, I mean he was not at all cool and had a sticky appearance that must have prodded the marauders (probably James or Sirius) to name him Snivellus.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by gorgie101

Ha New Thread! Yeah!

Originally Posted by gorgie101

Okay so I was thinking that Snape at Slughorns party was such a wallflower!

I absolutely love imagining him standing in the corner and glaring at everyone....

Haven't I mentioned that before? ^^;

Originally Posted by gorgie101

but when JKR said one person got a reprive the first on that came to mind was Snape. I hope so!

He was my first thought too. His chances of survival are as ambiguous as he.

Originally Posted by gorgie101

Hey question for the thread: How do you guys think Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

It's spelled Snivellus. I think that perhaps he did show emotion (sorrow, fear, maybe) at one point, and was called Snivellus for it. It would explain his "fools with their hearts on their sleeves" speech. If showing emotion was something he was constantly "punished" for, I can understand him thinking that it is wrong to be emotional.

Originally Posted by gorgie101

Just some thoughts! Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy thanksgiving to you too. I'm not sure what my parents are going to cook up this year (and when. We've never been much for planning) but I wanna help. It's great being in the kitchen and smelling the taters and gravy and turkey and sauce and stuffing and........................mmmm.....*trails off and stares dreamily into the distance*

[leenielou]

Originally Posted by ignisia

It's spelled Snivellus. I think that perhaps he did show emotion (sorrow, fear, maybe) at one point, and was called Snivellus for it. It would explain his "fools with their hearts on their sleeves" speech. If showing emotion was something he was constantly "punished" for, I can understand him thinking that it is wrong to be emotional.

Ooh, good point. "Snivellus" does imply snivelling/tears and mucus (yuk ) so I can definitely see your theory being true there - especially if the little boy in SWM (who I think was upset/crying? My copy of the book is in another city ) was actually him.

It could also tie in somewhat with his negative reaction to Harry calling him a coward at the end of HBP. Not only had he quite patently not been a coward, but he'd also maybe had to learn from a very early age not to be so "snivelly".

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by leenielou

Ooh, good point. "Snivellus" does imply snivelling/tears and mucus (yuk ) so I can definitely see your theory being true there - especially if the little boy in SWM (who I think was upset/crying? My copy of the book is in another city ) was actually him.

I just checked it out, the little boy in the memory was crying. And in the corner too.

Originally Posted by leenielou

It could also tie in somewhat with his negative reaction to Harry calling him a coward at the end of HBP. Not only had he quite patently not been a coward, but he'd also maybe had to learn from a very early age not to be so "snivelly".

I've never thought of that, but I think it's a good point. I can definitely see Snape scornful of any form of cowardice, since that word does seem to imply someone like Pettigrew, who whingingly kowtows to anyone who will keep him safe. It takes away one's dignity and self-worth, and I don't think Snape would be very keen on that.

[lorna]

Originally Posted by gorgie101

Ha New Thread! Yeah!

I was really struck by the language used by JKR in comparing Snape in as much pain as Fang. I was so sad when I read that! ( I love all animals so I can totally symathize) Snape just has to be good. I too thought that Snape might die in book 7 but when JKR said one person got a reprive the first on that came to mind was Snape. I hope so!

Hey question for the thread: How do you guys think Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

Just some thoughts! Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm not someone who's particularly upset when movies change things from books but
I'll be more than a litte testy if we don't get the howling dog, the fire, Snape's reaction to Harry's comments etc....in the film version of HBP. It really puts out there just how tragic a decision Snape had to make on the Tower.

OK back on topic.
I've wondered if perhaps Snape as younger boy, especially in his first year at Hogwarts
was a more emotional type and that perhaps he didn't know how to stand up for himself and it came across as "snivelling and whining".
Well that would have just been like waving a red flag in front of bull to the more socially competent kids like James Potter or Sirius Black.
Couple that in with Snape's appearance at the time....recipe for an unflattering and I think undeserved nickname.

[SKasparRollins]

Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:

• He has just been forced, on Dumbledore's orders, to kill Dumbledore, a close ally, and the greatest wizard Snape has ever known
• He was forced to do so to evade his own death - he killed to save his life, which usually leaves an imprint on one no matter how tough they are
• And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by SKasparRollins

Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:

• He has just been forced, on Dumbledore's orders, to kill Dumbledore, a close ally, and the greatest wizard Snape has ever known
• He was forced to do so to evade his own death - he killed to save his life, which usually leaves an imprint on one no matter how tough they are
• And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.

I think Snape doesn't like being called a coward because he framed himself for the murder of the most loved wizard alive so he could go into deep cover and assist in the defeat of Voldemort. He did this against his wishes because he was loyal to Dumbledore and like the good and brave soldier he was, he followed his order. This view comes of course from my acceptence of the DIATSSISE theory.

[NatsuBunny]

anyway just a part i really liked in HBp. When Slughorn threw out an arm and scooped Snape out of thin air to join him. and shouted "STOp Skulking...."

hahahaha. because that's exactly what Snape does, skulks. anyway, this is just in relation to the wallflower post.

[lorna]

Originally Posted by SKasparRollins

Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:

• And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.

That's a good catch. Not sure anyone's really mentioned this before.