All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

[ComicBookWorm]

Originally Posted by Phantomwish

Using common sense, I hope we can all deduce that Tom isn't the one with the power to defeat the dark lord. And who does that leave us with? Snape. Not only does this add more to Snape's pile of speculations, but I find it to be quite interesting... It would certainly show where his loyalties lie.

Jo has told us that the prophecy refers to Harry and Voldemort. So has Dumbledore. And using common sense, it makes sense for Harry, the hero of the series, the one who has been in a struggle with Voldemort since he was a baby, would be the one to defeat him.

BTW, Snape wasn't born in July, Harry was.

[nini]

I know this has probably been mentioned before, but if the prophecy could be either about Harry or Neville couldn't Neville be the one to kill Voldemord, or couldnt Vorldermord kill Neville and therefore both he and Harry could in theory survive?

[Tenshi]

Am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that the Lost Prophecy is with so many pauses, while the PoA prophecy was told in rather one go?

[BurrowGhoul]

Originally Posted by nini

I know this has probably been mentioned before, but if the prophecy could be either about Harry or Neville couldn't Neville be the one to kill Voldemord, or couldnt Vorldermord kill Neville and therefore both he and Harry could in theory survive?

No, because Voldemort chose Harry to mark as his equal, the prophecy is about Harry.

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Snape_Redemptor

This is a really important point and one I've considered all along. It's easy to assume that Harry has to personally kill Voldemort. We're so used to our formulaic 30 or 60 minute TV shows and our blockbuster movies where big guns and massive body counts are assumed fare. But this is not a formulaic story in the modern sense. It is a classic story, a tale of mystery that starts in the characters' childhoods and will have taken ten whole years to be revealed to us, not like our quick-shot blastotainment at all. Think of how long we've hung on! All for the gunfight at the OK Corral? All so that we can have our hero commit a murder at age 17? How is that different from the daily news? Where does all-important Love have a play in that? In fact, as far as murderers go in our time, at 17 Harry could be considered somewhat of a late-bloomer, and I say that with sadness, not humor. It's hard for me not to think that JKR has something better planned for Harry. And something much more satisfying planned for us, her readers. I believe she has more to say than "Showdown!" and, big news, "Harry kills Voldemort!" Like most things in the Potterverse, it's best not to take things, even the Prophecy, at face value.

I agree with your comment. I remember reading about DD telling LV several times over the story that there are worse things then death. I believe something will happen to LV that will remove his powers or weaken him so he will not die but will not be a problem to society any more. Maybe Harry will use the curse that Lockhart tried to use wipeing his memory and he will "live" on the ward at St Mungoes.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by TENSHI

Am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that the Lost Prophecy is with so many pauses, while the PoA prophecy was told in rather one go?

There were several similar pauses in the U.S. version of PoA (page 324).

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Photon

I agree with your comment. I remember reading about DD telling LV several times over the story that there are worse things then death. I believe something will happen to LV that will remove his powers or weaken him so he will not die but will not be a problem to society any more. Maybe Harry will use the curse that Lockhart tried to use wipeing his memory and he will "live" on the ward at St Mungoes.

Actually, Jo discussed this before HBP was released. She revealed that Dumbledore was not being truthful with Voldemort in that scene regarding why he did not try to kill him. That was a clue towards the Horcruxes. At that point, Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had made at least one Horcrux with the diary and at least suspected that he had made others. He may have even learned of the ring at that point since it is a mere two weeks after that when he destroyed the ring.

Dumbledore did not try to kill Voldemort that night because he knew that Voldemort could not be killed because of the Horcruxes. Of course, he couldn't tell Voldemort that - he didn't want Voldemort to know that he knew so much. So he waffled and said there are worse things than death to prevent Voldemort from realizing the truth.

[Dedalus Diggle]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Actually, Jo discussed this before HBP was released. She revealed that Dumbledore was not being truthful with Voldemort in that scene regarding why he did not try to kill him. That was a clue towards the Horcruxes. At that point, Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had made at least one Horcrux with the diary and at least suspected that he had made others. He may have even learned of the ring at that point since it is a mere two weeks after that when he destroyed the ring.

Dumbledore did not try to kill Voldemort that night because he knew that Voldemort could not be killed because of the Horcruxes. Of course, he couldn't tell Voldemort that - he didn't want Voldemort to know that he knew so much. So he waffled and said there are worse things than death to prevent Voldemort from realizing the truth.

We may learn that Dumbledore also used that opportunity to give Harry insight into the way Voldemort thinks, so as to know how his mind might turn in devising defenses, hiding things and otherwise responding to events.

[Shewoman]

Tenshi--there are seven ellipses in the PoA prophecy, and that wasn't a Pensieve memory; we were hearing what Harry heard Trelawney say.

[snuka]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Actually, Jo discussed this before HBP was released. She revealed that Dumbledore was not being truthful with Voldemort in that scene regarding why he did not try to kill him. That was a clue towards the Horcruxes. At that point, Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had made at least one Horcrux with the diary and at least suspected that he had made others. He may have even learned of the ring at that point since it is a mere two weeks after that when he destroyed the ring.

Dumbledore did not try to kill Voldemort that night because he knew that Voldemort could not be killed because of the Horcruxes. Of course, he couldn't tell Voldemort that - he didn't want Voldemort to know that he knew so much. So he waffled and said there are worse things than death to prevent Voldemort from realizing the truth.

I think that whole "DD not killing LV" part may be a bit of everything: a part of it was Horcruxes, sure. But also I think this is an important clue to the Prophecy: Chosen one can kill LV, no one else - but LV can't defeat Harry. (makes you think what would be if another DE tried to AK Harry at Privet Drive or GoF or OOTP or HBP ? It seems, ironically, by not allowing anyone else to touch Harry, LV is in fact making sure Harry doesn't get hurt). Chosen one has the abundance of the power the Dark lord knows not. And lastly, I do agree there would be worse things than death for LV and that Harry won't out-magic him. I think being stripped of his powers, or erasing memory of all magic would be devastating for LV. He would basically be equal to the thing he hated the most - a Muggle.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by snuka

I think being stripped of his powers, or erasing memory of all magic would be devastating for LV. He would basically be equal to the thing he hated the most - a Muggle.

Yes that would be torture for him but he would still have to be locked away. Just because he wouldn't have his power does not mean that he wouldn't be in posession of his pride, his thirst for power, his need to dominate, his evil soul. While magic was integral to his life as we know it now, for a while he lived as a muggle with no clue of the magic he had. He knew he was special but not how. Yet he was already domineering and torturous. Magic became his weapon of choice. But we all know that Voldy would find a different weapon.

Harry will vanquish Voldmort but I am intrigued by this thought I had. Perhaps Harry will vanquish Voldmort by putting him in a situation where Voldemort needs to escape but is unable to. So Voldemort, thinking he is clever, kills himself thinking that his horcruxes will bind him to the earth but, SURPRISE, no horcruxes! And Voldy dies.

Hogwarts would be the best scenario for this since no one can apparate on Hogwarts grounds. Not even Voldy. My question would be what situation could Harry put him in that Voldy would think his only chance is killing himself...

Of course this seems to contradict the second half of the prophecy...

[coco1965]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

My question would be what situation could Harry put him in that Voldy would think his only chance is killing himself...

Of course this seems to contradict the second half of the prophecy...

I think it is a possibility that LV will bring about his own demise (somehow) as well.
A similar idea was discussed in this thread:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101614

[crjdcc]

I like the idea of Harry putting LV in such a compromising situation that he thinks "suicide" is the only way out. As extrordinary as Harry has shown himself to be, it doesn't make sense to me that one of the most powerful wizards of all time was defeated in wand to wand combat by a 17 year old kid. Luck or skill will only get you so far when you're facing pure evil. And with Hermoine on his side, the idea seems better and better, I keep picturing to myself, Harry going up to LV, and embracing him in a big hug, continuously telling him "I love you" and it being too much for LV to bear and he AK's himself.

[Dedalus Diggle]

How about if Harry tricks LV into going back to the cave to check for the locket, and then steals the little boat, leaving LV marooned on the island surrounded by inferi?

[lancane]

I have a couple theories regarding the prophecy, unfortunatley my favorite regards to the book cover art from Deathly Hollows, fact is that all the books (US) the covers showed something important near the end of the book - Deathly Hollows shows Harry and Voldemort both behind a curtain during the day in a colliseum of sorts, with some ground torn up, they are both surrounded by several shadowy figures, Harry looks to either be calling something - reaching - or showing Voldemort something, and it shows Voldemort terrified of something as if to back away in fear or protect himself.

`The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies . and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives . the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies .'

If we stick to the idea that the prophecy it fact means Harry, which I do: Born when the seventh month dies (July), Born to those whom have thrice defied him (James & Lily), Has power the Dark Lord knows not (In fact he knows it, he does not believe in it) and either must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives (Here in deed is the massive question?)

If you look at the cover of Deathly Hollows and think of the prophecy -

A) Harry & Voldemort (Harry is the child in the prophecy, he could not touch the prophecy at the Ministry otherwise - OOTP, he is marked as the Dark Lord's equal by Voldemort's own hand - The Scar and he was born when the seventh month dies - July...and so on).

B) I believe the two parts we all want to learn about: The power the Dark Lord knows not & of course the either must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives - which both makes sense by the cover - First off they look as if they are behind a curtain (The Death Veil at the Ministry: This would explain why it is day (Heaven Like?), the shadowy figures (The Voices beyond the Veil), the terror stricken Voldemort (He fears death - he is living his greatest fear), At the hands of the other (Harry took Voldemort into the realm of death, thrusting him through the veil - using one's hands).

C) Here come's the kicker to the theory: The power he knows not & Neither can live while the other survives, to me in part they are of the same thing, even if Voldemort made Harry a horcrux, both souls should be gone by this action, then in turn (Ancient mythology speaks of the boat man - a reaper which to take the living back - requires a soul?) - however, the fact of the power is love but I also believe much more, the power of those whom love you - If Harry is beyond the veil, he will have those whom love him on both sides, those whom risked their lives for him - Voldemort will have neither, no one really will care; even his followers will not care - as they did not before - "We thought you were no more!", he will face fear and realize there are worse things then death...that in death by your actions you will matter by those whom loved you, this is where Harry is way up on him - in deed, Harry will likely have people on both sides begging for him to return to the living (Mom, Dad, Sirius, Dumbledore) and (Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Lupin and so forth) - I think this will help him return, this is the true power which the Dark Lord knows not, that of those whom care and will sacrifice themselves for those they love.

In the end I think Harry and Voldemort will enter the realm of death beyond the veil and face death, it will be love that helps the other survive the experience and return to the living, this will be Harry, in my opinion of course.

[Tenshi]

Oh I love that theory.

I always hoped that it's possible for Harry to get rid of Voldemort without killing him directly. Leaving him behind the veil without the chance to get back is a good idea.

Btw, your picture is much too big. Max 300 x 300 pixel are allowed.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Dedalus Diggle

How about if Harry tricks LV into going back to the cave to check for the locket, and then steals the little boat, leaving LV marooned on the island surrounded by inferi?

As much as I really like this idea, as Voldemort created the inferi, wouldn't they answer to him?

[Dumbledoregirl3]

have you ever though about the last part of the prophecy...
"neither can live while the other survives"

Is one of them not living or not surviving?

dictionary.com says live means...

–verb (used without object) 1. to have life, as an organism; be alive; be capable of vital functions: all things that live.
2. to continue to have life; remain alive: to live to a ripe old age.
3. to continue in existence, operation, memory, etc.; last: a book that lives in my memory.
4. to maintain or support one's existence; provide for oneself: to live on one's income.
5. to feed or subsist (usually fol. by on or upon): to live on rice and bananas.
6. to dwell or reside (usually fol. by in, at, etc.): to live in a cottage.
7. to pass life in a specified manner: They lived happily ever after.
8. to direct or regulate one's life: to live by the golden rule.
9. to experience or enjoy life to the full: At 40 she was just beginning to live.
10. to cohabit (usually fol. by with).
11. to escape destruction or remain afloat, as a ship or aircraft.
–verb (used with object) 12. to pass (life): to live a life of ease.
13. to practice, represent, or exhibit in one's life: to live one's philosophy.

and survive as...

1. to remain alive after the death of someone, the cessation of something, or the occurrence of some event; continue to live: Few survived after the holocaust.
2. to remain or continue in existence or use: Ancient farming methods still survive in the Middle East.
3. to get along or remain healthy, happy, and unaffected in spite of some occurrence: She's surviving after the divorce.
–verb (used with object) 4. to continue to live or exist after the death, cessation, or occurrence of: His wife survived him. He survived the operation.
5. to endure or live through (an affliction, adversity, misery, etc.): She's survived two divorces.


so...does this mean that both voldemort and harry cant be alive when one of them is alive...if so that means voldemort isnt really alive... i guess you could say that he isnt alive because he doesnt have a whole soul

or could this just mean that neither can enjoy life while the other is alive

I don't know just saying

[Shewoman]

Neither of them is alive in the way we are: with a single, unsplit soul. Voldemort has split his (Harry's is whole) and the connection they share through Harry's scar means they're not really separate people: Harry feels and sometimes sees some of what Voldemort experiences; Voldemort sends Harry a vision of Sirius at the MoM; Dumbledore was worried in HBP that Voldemort would use Harry to attack him if V realized how close Headmaster and student were. This is not "natural" life.

[Saramber]

So I’ve been thinking about the prophecy a bit and trying to predict what knowledge could be gained if, “he who cannot be named” knew the exact context. I mean, how much info did DD really gain from it? Or how much has Harry gained?

Any thoughts?