All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

[zaro703]

Originally Posted by Annett

I think Dumbledore was the one who chose the vault at Gringotts. Why did he chose exactly those vault (number 713). We know he knew the prophecy and thanks to Beclyn we know the same numbers are hidden in the prophecy. What does this mean?

the number 7 has been considered magical number for a while although no one reallly knows why. Also The number 3 has also been considered magicial and 1 could mean the beginning of something.

[Rosalee83]

If Dumbledore engineered the whole prophecy as an elaborate ruse to distract Voldemort, why then would he have Snape (the supposed loyal spy) only listen to the first part? Or, in fact, why have a second part of the prophecy?

It seems out of character for Dumbledore to do something like this. He is always going on about protecting his students. If he made up the prophecy he would be responsible for either killing an innocent boy or then throwing that young boy into a life with no escape from the threat of death.

However, I think that for those Snape supporters out there, it could be possible that Snape was working for DD and deliberately only told part of the prophecy to Lord Voldemort.
Then, LV would be guaranteed to mark Harry as his equal (DD possibly foresaw this and took precaution to prevent Harry's death) in fulfillment of the prophecy unknowingly. Dumbledore would have bought time for the Order, knowing that LV would probably come back, and would be able to prepare Harry for his destiny.

[sweets7]

I agree, for Dumbledore to engineer the prophecy would be tantamount to him signing a lot of people's death warrants. The prophecy and its implications seem to upset him. He may be ruthless; he is not a cold blooded murderer

[sickoftv]

The prophecy drives me nuts. I cannot figure out for the life of me exactly what it means. I assume we aren't really supposed to. I will continue to argue, for the sake of the plot not turning into an episode of the Care Bears, that the "power the dark lord knows not" is not LOVE(tm): Now in citrus and speramint varieties!

Which is to say, I do not think that love is it's own force, seperable from the actions that define it. I do not want harry to magically fire rainbows and kitty cats from his wand. I'd much rather the power the dark lord knows not be linked to voldemort's ignorance of SACRIFICE, or his inability to recognize that there are things worse than death and suffering.

Then there is the part that really gets to me:

Originally Posted by Madron

"and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives..."

I have no idea what this really means.

The main problem is posed by the interpretation of the word "either." This word, while it seems simple, has two definitions, upon which the entire meaning hinges. Either can mean one or the other as in: "You may choose either the left or the right path, but not both." Either can also mean BOTH one AND the other such as: "Broad columns towerd on either side of the avenue."

More frustrating for a close reader is the second part of this snippet. How exactly are we supposed to take "for neither can live while the other survives"? It seems to be counterintuitive in the extreme. They are both ALIVE (well, there is the question whether someone can be alive if they cannot die, I think that is posed as an off-hand comment by Mr. Weasley in COS) so how can neither live while the other survives? Once again, there are two main classes of definition to the term "survive." There is the intransitive definition, meaning simply to continue living and prospering; there is also the transitive version, meaning to outlast someone or something. It seems more likely that this is the version JKR wants us to use. However the sentence construction makes it an INtransitive verb.

"You put too much store by the prophecy, Harry." - Dumbledore.

[Rosalee83]

Originally Posted by sickoftv

The prophecy drives me nuts. I cannot figure out for the life of me exactly what it means. I assume we aren't really supposed to. I will continue to argue, for the sake of the plot not turning into an episode of the Care Bears, that the "power the dark lord knows not" is not LOVE(tm): Now in citrus and speramint varieties!

Now, come on, I think it would be an interesting plot twist for the Order to stand side by side and shoot a ray of "love" out from their stomachs to strike care and joy into Voldy's shriveled up little heart.

Personally, I tend to accept Dumbledore's explanation of the prophecy. In the end Harry will have to kill Voldemore or be killed by Voldemort.

What I don't understand about DD and this prophecy is why he made such a huge deal about it at the end of the fifth book and then he turned around in the sixth book and was all, "prophecy schmophecy. It's your choice."

[Dedalus Diggle]

Originally Posted by Rosalee83

What I don't understand about DD and this prophecy is why he made such a huge deal about it at the end of the fifth book and then he turned around in the sixth book and was all, "prophecy schmophecy. It's your choice."

He was teaching Harry about having the proper attitude. All through the first six books, Harry has been the prey. He's been proactive often enough, but even then he was actively thwarting plots, which is different from being on the offensive. It is not clear if Dumbleodre believes the prophecy has any influence other than the credence people give it, but he clearly was getting Harry to see that he needed to be, and wanted to be, the predator, not the prey. And the cover art we have seen shows this: Ron and Hermione are scared or confused, but harry fears nothing because he is willing to face anything to get rid of Voldemort.

[sweets7]

I always presumed that, as the prophecy referred to the life or death of either voldemort of Harry, it really meant either one cannot have a life while they both survive. One has to be somehow responsible for the death of the other. I always presumed that they both could die. The prophecy does not definitively say that when one is dead the other will have a fulfilled life. All it says is that they cannot co - exist in this world.

[20ofdecember]

My first impression upon hearing "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" would be that Harry or Voldemort have to die, and one will kill the other. Additionally, neither Harry nor Voldemort can be alive if one of them survives an attack from the other.

However, Rowling has said that she worded this extremely carefully. This sentece would be pretty easy to make if my first impression were correct- there really wouldnt be too much need to word it very carefully.

Which makes me think, as it does so many other people, that there is more to the prophecy then we understand. This makes perfect sense giving Rowling's track record- Rowling isnt going to just spoil the ending by giving the fans the prophecy of what will happen-- and huge plot points are never what they seem to be at first.

So i have a theory. Yes, i know its far-fetched (and i dont really like far fetched theories, or even shipping really because Rowling said who would get together with whom), but here it is.

The words "either" and "neither" signify Harry and Voldemort. But the word "other" denoted some third party. My guess would be...Dumbledore. Let me reword this to see what we get.

"And Harry and/or Voldermort must die at the hand of Dumbledore for neither Harry nor Voldemort can not live while Dumbledore survives"

and we can probably rule out that Dumbledoe will kill Harry, so this is what we get:

"And Voldermort must die at the hand of Dumbledore for neither Harry nor Voldemort can not live while Dumbledore survives"

So it would seem that if this is correct, Dumbledore had to die for some reason in order for Voldemort to die. But then how would Dumbledore kill voldemort if he's "definitely dead?" My guess is this is where the veil seperating the realms of life and death come into play. Somehow, harry will get voldemort into the veil with him, as depicted on the cover, and they will batttle, but Harry can not actually kill voldemort. The greatest wizard of all time then steps in and somehow topples yet another dark wizard, as he did once before with Grindelwald

[MonicaLynn60]

Originally Posted by Sugabeen

Whilst re-reading OOtP last night, I was struck by the question of who stored it there and who was responsible for the "spidery writing" that said who it was from/to and about.
I know I've seen the term spidery writing in the books before, but I can't remember who it was said to belong to...I'll look back, but maybe someone knows and can help me out.

The reason I'm wondering is that I've just realised it says "Dark Lord" and ?Harry Potter. I've always assumed Dumbledore wrote that...but he would never refer to Voldemort as Dark Lord, would he?

And if he didn't write that....who did...and was there any way that the prophecy could have been tampered with before storage?

Maybe someone did hear it as it broke, but they heard the wrong thing?

The Spidery Handwriting you were asking about is Snapes. In HBP the "Prince's" handwriting is referred to as Spidery. As a matter of fact, there are more than a few references to the HBP's writing being "spidery." I never caught that....Good Catch! Wow, Snape huh? Oh, and more food for thought, Snape referres to Voldy as "The Dark Lord."

[ID824]

I am wondering why Harry is the only one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Example - if Dumbledore had lived and continued to destroy the horcruxes and made Voldemort mortal, couldn't he have killed Voldemort himself? Or Snape? Or anyone else? Why is it only Harry that has this power? I have only been able to come up with two solutions to this question.

1.) Harry will not kill Voldemort, but rather, he will do as the prophecy states and he will be able to VANQUISH "The Dark Lord" and leave Tom Riddle alive also.

2.) There will be a scene very much like we saw in PoA where Lupin and Sirius had Wormtail cornered and Harry spares his life. Imagine a time where Harry and Voldemort square off, and Harry ends up with the upper hand, and asks that Voldemort not be killed, but rather is sent off to Azkaban or some other prison. Then Neville (or someone) walks in and tries to kill Voldemort. Harry sees what is about to happen, and not wanting Neville to split his own soul, he stands between Neville and Voldemort and in doing so, gives Voldemort the same kind of protection that Lily gave Harry. This unenduring level of love surrounds Voldemort and makes its imprint on him, and in doing so, utterly destroys him. I think it would be safe to say that NOBODY would have the understanding or compassion within him to try and save Voldemort, and this makes it more reasonable that only Harry could vanquish him.

[IchLiebeGeorge]

ID824, I completely agree with you. Voldemort will be taken out, but there is still Tom Riddle. I think Harry needs to understand the difference between the two, and his love gives him the capability to do so. He needs to see that if he hadn't gotten the love he did from his parents he could have ended up in the same boat.

ETA: I said something along the same lines in post 318 of this thread.

[dumbledoresocks]

Does anyone else think it is strange that it says "and either must die at the hand of the other"

Whenever I read this before I always just assumed it said by the hand of the other becuase I was being careless while reading.

So, if either must die at the hand of the other...then really anyone could kill either of them, Harry doesn't have to be the one to kill Voldemort, and Voldemort doesn't have to be the one to actually kill Harry. It just has to work itself out to be that they die AT the hand of the other. This could mean a bunch of things:
-someone could kill either Harry/Voldemort by the request of the other
-they could physically die next to the others hand

Right?

Also, totally random but I think it's interesting that the US cover shows both Voldemort and Harry with their HANDS reaching out...maybe this is a scene that shows the prophecy unfolding in some way

[ComicBookWorm]

I'm glad you noticed that subtle difference. I've been flogging that one for a while. At the hand could also mean something that Harry puts into motion.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by ID824

1.) Harry will not kill Voldemort, but rather, he will do as the prophecy states and he will be able to VANQUISH "The Dark Lord" and leave Tom Riddle alive also.

JKR has said Voldemort and Riddle are one and the same. After all, it's only a name that Riddle made up out of his own full name.

FAQ section, JKR's Official Site (bolding is mine) Is Tom Riddle the Half-Blood Prince? JKR: Well, as Tom Riddle is the same person as Voldemort, and Voldemort is NOT the Half-Blood Prince… do I really need to answer this?

Originally Posted by MonicaLynn60

The Spidery Handwriting you were asking about is Snapes. In HBP the "Prince's" handwriting is referred to as Spidery. As a matter of fact, there are more than a few references to the HBP's writing being "spidery." I never caught that....Good Catch! Wow, Snape huh? Oh, and more food for thought, Snape referres to Voldy as "The Dark Lord."

An interesting thought, but I can't see the Ministry letting Snape, a known former Death Eater, become the keeper of the hall of prophecies. In a world full of old wizards, I'm sure that more than one of them has "spidery" handwriting. Also, I skimmed the chapter where Harry first uses the HBP potions book, and don't see any reference to "spidery" writing in the book. Where did you find that description?

[CoeurDeLyon]

I started a new thread on this topic, but it was closed and I was directed here....
I was thinking about the note yesterday that RAB left in the locket, and I started wondering. Jo stated that she worded it very carefully, and it got me to thinking that maybe RAB knew about the prophecy.

To the Dark lord
i know I will be dead long before you read this
but i want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret
I have stolen the real horcrux and intend to destroy it as soon as I can
I face death in the hopes when you meet your match
you will be mortal once more.
R.A.B

I found it interesting that the note reads WHEN you meet your match, versus IF you meet your match, as if he was knew there was a Chosen One on the way. Is it possible that RAB overheard something about the prophecy, realized that Voldy could not be killed since he had his Horcruxes, and destroyed the Horcuxes that he knew about?
I think that is why RAB was killed, and why he knew he would be, because he was destroying Voldys soul.
I am unsure of the exact date of the prophecy, Jo addressed it as 16 years ealier, which could be late 1979, or early 1980, but if it was 1979, than its possible that RAB could still be Regulus (which is popular belief).
But it is also possible that I am just so excited about Deathly hallows that I am looking for even the tiniest bit of irrelevant information to become something important.

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by dumbledoresocks

Does anyone else think it is strange that it says "and either must die at the hand of the other"

Whenever I read this before I always just assumed it said by the hand of the other becuase I was being careless while reading.

So, if either must die at the hand of the other...then really anyone could kill either of them, Harry doesn't have to be the one to kill Voldemort, and Voldemort doesn't have to be the one to actually kill Harry. It just has to work itself out to be that they die AT the hand of the other. This could mean a bunch of things:
-someone could kill either Harry/Voldemort by the request of the other
-they could physically die next to the others hand

Right?

Also, totally random but I think it's interesting that the US cover shows both Voldemort and Harry with their HANDS reaching out...maybe this is a scene that shows the prophecy unfolding in some way

I think I get, but I think your totally random thought is quite interesting. It seems it could also point to the "gleam in Dumbledore's eye". It also reminds me of Harry feeling as though he was going to die when LV possessed him and I guess visa versa when LV felt Harry's love for Sirius.

[Saint_Helga]

I and my co-author have written an essay about Neville and the prophecy. We claim that Neville will be the one to finish the dark Lord and that this fact will NOT contradict the Jo's words about the way prophecies work. In this essay we examin other literary examples of prophecies and what it means for the last book. Please read The Gun, Dark Horse, and Macbeth and decide see for yoursef.

[Aguamenti]

I thought up this theory while I was rereading HBP. I read the line "Dumbledore had his hands on either side of the pensive" or something like that, and it struck me, either means one or the other, or both. SO, "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" could mean Harry and Voldemort must die at the hand of another person. The "other" doesn't need to be Harry or Voldemort. I was thinking, what if the "other" is Neville? He was the other person that the prohecy could refer to. So would that mean Neville must kill Harry and Voldemort?

[Harrysahorcrux]

Originally Posted by Rosalee83

Now, come on, I think it would be an interesting plot twist for the Order to stand side by side and shoot a ray of "love" out from their stomachs to strike care and joy into Voldy's shriveled up little heart.

oh come on, this isnt the grinch!!!

But i've thought about hte prophecy, and the word vanquish in one of my dictionaries says that it cols also mean gain mastery over, so maybe that has something to do with the "careful wording"

[Latisha]

Originally Posted by Aguamenti

I was thinking, what if the "other" is Neville? He was the other person that the prohecy could refer to. So would that mean Neville must kill Harry and Voldemort?

Didn't JK say that Neville is not the choosen one, but merely the one who could have been?

I understand the "other", that not Harry or LV need necessarily to kill LV with their wand or whatever, but I think this maybe where Snape fits in.