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All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 8th, 2006, 4:16 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by Madron View Post
Thanks for clearing that up, CBW. I didn't know that.

I also like your take on prophecies being glimpses on the future. Although that brings up the question why Trelawney's voice changes. For me It sounds as if someone is speaking through her.
I think she's doing the seeing herself. She doesn't realize she has some ability, so she fakes it. We saw her correctly reading the cards in HBP. She did see a grim in Harry's cup, only it was Sirius. I think the voice change is a device to show she is doing a "real" prophecy.


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  #42  
Old December 8th, 2006, 4:41 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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I didn't say that she didn't see the future. I said that the image into the future was foggy. That's because the future isn't set in cement, not because she's a bad seer. I don't think any seer would have seen anything more clearly. Her prediction about Wormtail was more certain, and that was because it was the very near future.
Than we agree about the function of the prophecy.

But I think the other predictions of Trelawney are worth to speculate about. So far we haven`t any clue what 2, 7, 10 and Knave of Spade could mean. Another date? And who is the one that is described as the knave, Voldemort or Snape?


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  #43  
Old December 8th, 2006, 4:46 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
When either is used as a pronoun, which is how it is used in the prophecy, it can only mean one or the other of two choices, but not both.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "either" (as both adjective AND pronoun) can mean either "each of two" or "one or other of two", so according to the OED definition, even in modern English, "either must die by the hand of the other" could mean "each must die by the hand of the other" or "one must die by the hand of the other."

I'm not saying that "each must die by the hand of the other" is the definitive reading, just that it is a valid interpretation in British English, notwithstanding what Websters an American source) says.


  #44  
Old December 8th, 2006, 5:40 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

I'd like to go back and say that while Snape is not on either ( ) of the two business ends of the prophesy, I think he might be included in there somewhere. He has power over Voldemort in some ways (he's one of the three people who have, the others being Harry and Dumbles).

Does anyone else find it significant that neither Harry nor Tom are mentioned in the prophesy? Isn't it possible that, as Voldemort attacked Harry, he named Harry the chosen one and himself as the Dark Lord? Of course, no one else has been referred to as the Dark Lord except Voldemort, but it seems that if he were certainly the one the prophesy meant, one or more of his names would have appeared somewhere.

The reason this interests me is that it means he might have been aware of what Dumbledore was talking about -- that tyrants are in danger from those they oppress. Or maybe he is just paranoid. Or maybe he is so into himself that if there was a significant prophesy being made it just had to be about him.

The "at the hand" part -- that's where we know there's no magic involved, right? Isn't that the consensus? Does this mean Voldemort loses his magical powers? Because I don't see him choosing to set them aside.


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  #45  
Old December 8th, 2006, 6:12 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
For reference:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
I'm really intrigued as to why Lord Voldemort is referred to as Dark Lord in the prophecy. It would seem to point to the prophecy being given to Trelawney by someone who was a Death Eater or who had allegiance to Voldemort.

This seems odd, as the Centaurs consider themselves "a race apart"-not taking any side when seeing the future.

Where would the prophecy have come from? Prophecy in the Bible comes from God, but we don't know what, if any higher plane exists in the Wizarding World, or Muggle World in the realm of the books.

So I have a theory for you...(it may have been said elsewhere, so I won't claim it as mine!!)

What if Snape wasn't overhearing the prophecy at all-what if he was GIVING it to Trelawney.

Just because he was caught before the end of the prophecy, doesn't mean he didn't have time to think it all and somehow transmit it to Trelawney-just that he was removed before Trelawney had time to repeat it all.

Why would he do this? I'm not sure yet-I need to think that through, but maybe you can help with this.

What do you all think? Is it a possibility?


  #46  
Old December 8th, 2006, 6:55 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

I think it isn`t impossible but rather unlikely. First Snape`s voice ist mostly soft or cold, never described as harsh or hoarse.
Second I`d like to point out that many families in the wizard world call Voldemort Dark Lord. Because Harry didn`t hear this before his fourth year doesn`t mean it is a very small group. Harry didn`t know many families then. And there is a story reason for that. Later we hear that the Black familiy is refering to the Dark Lord. I think there are other pureblood families that do the same, even if the aren`t Death Eaters.
Third I think it is more likely that her own Grandmother Cassandra speaks trough her. We didn`t know much about her, not even her voice, but Trelawneys prophecy voice isn`t described as a voice of a man, therfore I think it is rather a womans voice.


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  #47  
Old December 8th, 2006, 7:02 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

It's funny how Rowling relates her more philosophical ideas to various pieces of Literature.

I for one side with Dumbledore and believe the prophecy to be an example of a logical fallacy meaning it is not up to fate but to one's own free will. The ambiguity in it coincides with the equivocation the Three Witches told Macbeth in ‘Macbeth’. Just as Macbeth's perception of himself rose for he believed no one could kill him (as he believed the equivocation to be a sort of logical equation, if x = absurd then y = will not happen, however it turned out to be a description of his death) Voldemort marked Harry out as his equal.

To go off on a slight tangent, I believe it is interesting that Harry is slightly disappointed by the fact that the only power he possesses which, "the Dark Lord knows not" is love. How many times has he been rescued and assisted by his friends? I hope not to sound too truculent but I agree when Snape says something along the lines of, "Potter is not special; he is purely blessed to have powerful and talented friends". His mother protected him. Dumbledore taught him. Ron, Hermione helped him fight Voldemort. OOTP fought alongside him, etc, etc. Curiously, I would bet that anyone who is going to fight the Dark Lord must be the opposite, good, and hence have the ability to love as they will possess friends.

An interesting point in the prophecy is however, "Neither can live while the other survives". Is Voldemory alive? Yes. Is Harry alive? Yes. If we were to examine the prophecy as a straightforward logical argument which is left to fate then it would now be marked void. Although one can argue that neither Voldemort nor Harry are living in the metaphorical sense. I'm not too keen to side with that, as I believe that we interpret parts as literal and others as metaphorical it will become much more ambiguous.

Hence, I do not believe in the idea of the prophecy and fate. I believe that Voldemort clouded with fear simply perceived the equivocation to be correct. As he did so, he marked Harry out. Harry will not 'live' happily until the one who had murdered his parents is abolished - Voldemort will 'not comfortably' until he knows he is safe from his 'equal'. Therefore it is highly possible, that Harry might not even kill Voldemort as the prophecy is false. On another level if we agree that Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, the power he has is love, love translates into one having many friends, and hence one of his many friends will kill Voldemort. I do not believe that JK Rowling would opt to go round this route because that would sort of kill the novel


  #48  
Old December 8th, 2006, 7:02 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him

I love the parallel between Harry and his parents. They defied Voldy three times, but their son has defeated Voldemort 5 times. To me, it shows how close in character they all were. They're strong, proud, determined people who did/will not stop until Voldemort got/gets what he deserves.

Harry has made yet another choice:

HBP: Horcruxes pg. 512 US hardback version
But he understood at last what Dumbledore had been trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, woudl say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew--and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents--that there was all the difference in the world.


He has chosen not to cower from Voldemort, which to me, bears a direct connection between he and his parents.

, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...

Voldemort pretty much defeated himself when he marked Harry as his equal. Not only did he give him some of his own powers as he "marked" him, but Harry had already obtained the power from which Voldemort flees. Lily already loved Harry, whereas I'm not sure if Merope ever loved Voldemort as he grew in her womb.

and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

And this is the part that confuses me and scares me. I don't think it would be fair for Harry to die while fighting Voldemort. He has gone through so much already, that he deserves some kind of compensation for the trials Voldemort has made him go through. I don't believe Harry will kill Voldy, however. I just can't see him becoming a murderer. Obviously, the fact that Harry can love will be a huge advantage for him, but I really don't know how it can be incorporated and made into an actual weapon.


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  #49  
Old December 8th, 2006, 8:21 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "either" (as both adjective AND pronoun) can mean either "each of two" or "one or other of two", so according to the OED definition, even in modern English, "either must die by the hand of the other" could mean "each must die by the hand of the other" or "one must die by the hand of the other."

I'm not saying that "each must die by the hand of the other" is the definitive reading, just that it is a valid interpretation in British English, notwithstanding what Websters an American source) says.
Only the Oxford Compact dictionary has it that way (that's the free online Oxford dictionary). The full OED doesn't. It lists which is archaic usage and which is modern. I'm trying to find an online source for it. I had one in past, but a quick google didn't turn anything up. I'm sorry, but I'm going to be busy and won't be able to follow up for a few days. We'll have to leave this where it is, and I'll return to it then.

The grammar rule I learned in school (fifty years ago) was the kind of confusing nonsense that reeked of formal (i.e. British) usage. Grammar usage and rules in America tend to get streamlined or tossed out.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; December 8th, 2006 at 8:24 pm.
  #50  
Old December 8th, 2006, 8:45 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Not only does Harry have his mother's love, he has the knowledge that his parents loved each other and wanted him.
He also knows what Voldemort may not-that Voldemort's parents did not love each other. He knows that they were only together because of a spell. Maybe that spell had an effect on the unborn Tom.


  #51  
Old December 8th, 2006, 8:48 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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An interesting point in the prophecy is however, "Neither can live while the other survives". Is Voldemory alive? Yes
What if Voldemort isn't alive? Isn't Voldemort just a product of Tom Riddle's imagination? Voldemort is like... like a tool that Voldemort uses to destroy the part of himself that's human (mortality).


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  #52  
Old December 8th, 2006, 9:01 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Never mind Occam's Razor, here's Hinoema's (cute pink) Razor:

If the casual reader needs to reference an outside source to understand a (supposed) plot point, it's most likely an incorrect interpretation.

You should be able to understand the Harry Potter books by reading only the Harry Potter books. Archaic English is not general knowledge, and basing a plot point on the understanding of such (or alchemy, or symbolism not described onpage, or anything else similar) makes the books inaccessible and unsolveable for younger readers and many foreign readers.

Also, Jo and any character who cares to clarify have all agreed- the Prophecy involves Harry and Voldemort. Neville could have been involved, but wasn't. No one else is ever mentioned as being a subject of the Prophecy. If 'either' interpreted as 'both' were to be relevant, the prophecy would not be described so far only in terms of applicability to Harry and Voldemort alone.

As for Snape, he has been one of many involved in the Prophecy, but I see nothing to suggest that any of it is about him (or Peter, or anyone else besides harry and Voldemort).

The only two major characters in HP, really, are Harry and Voldemort- protagonist, antagonist. Everyone else is to facilitate something to further their conflict, even Dumbledore, even Snape. No one else will be the focus of the Prophecy. Many had a hand in facilitating it and will have a hand in resolving it, but it is about Harry and his conflict with Voldemort. Everyone else is defined by which character they support and are motivated by- Harry, Voldemort, or both.



Last edited by Hinoema; December 8th, 2006 at 9:04 pm.
  #53  
Old December 8th, 2006, 9:24 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
As for Snape, he has been one of many involved in the Prophecy, but I see nothing to suggest that any of it is about him (or Peter, or anyone else besides harry and Voldemort).
either must die at the hand of the other....

Hand could be refering to Wormtail or Snape.... they can be considered to be hands of Voldy and DUmbledore. So personally I think that both of them will play a critical role with the prophesy and the end of the book and Voldy ( or Harry) .... Since hand could be refering to them.


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  #54  
Old December 8th, 2006, 9:26 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
If the casual reader needs to reference an outside source to understand a (supposed) plot point, it's most likely an incorrect interpretation.

You should be able to understand the Harry Potter books by reading only the Harry Potter books. Archaic English is not general knowledge, and basing a plot point on the understanding of such (or alchemy, or symbolism not described onpage, or anything else similar) makes the books inaccessible and unsolveable for younger readers and many foreign readers.
This doesn't mean Jo wont use symbolisms or alchemy. I read an interview where Jo herself said she learned a lot about Alchemy. I think it is just an added touch to her book. Of course the main meaning of the books should be able to be deciphered without having to understand all the extra symbolisms in full detail.

Quote:
Also, Jo and any character who cares to clarify have all agreed- the Prophecy involves Harry and Voldemort. Neville could have been involved, but wasn't. No one else is ever mentioned as being a subject of the Prophecy. If 'either' interpreted as 'both' were to be relevant, the prophecy would not be described so far only in terms of applicability to Harry and Voldemort alone.
I agree,I think it is pretty clear the prophecy refers to Harry and Voldemort.


  #55  
Old December 8th, 2006, 9:33 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Okay, I've developed my theory a bit further...

Why is Voldemort unable to love? Its a very strong way of putting it. Not wanting to feel love, not needing to be loved, not having anyone to love or be loved by....but UNABLE to?

What if there is a biological reason why he is unable to love?

A side effect from the love potion Merope gave to his father. He wasn't the product of a loving relationship - maybe there are side effects if a child is produced under those conditions. Tom Riddle's blood would still have contained the potion when he fathered Voldemort, right?

This being the case, Voldemort's blood may contain something that renders him unable to love, unable to distinguish real love from obsessive.

Could Voldemort be defeated and Tom Riddle re-born with a spell/charm/potion to reverse these effects? Or even with the destruction of all the horcruxes?

He now has Harry's blood within him too-which contains blood so full of real love that it might finally allow Voldemort to be able to love....but only once the horcruxes have been destroyed.

Relating this to the prophecy, this would be the power the Dark Lord doesn't know about-he wanted Harry's blood to regenerate because he wanted to be able to touch Harry. Even if he is aware that the blood contains powerful love, he might not understand that he was the product of a love-potion that may have rendered him unable to love.

"either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives"

This really comes down to whether Harry can live a full life whilst Voldemort is pursuing his death. Would he want to live in hiding, like Sirius-I think we know that he wouldn't, he's seen the effects upon Sirius.
The only way he could live a full life is if Voldemort calls off the hunt and can accept that he doesn't have to kill Harry. This can only happen if he no longer believes Harry is going to kill him (maybe he will recognise that he has been vanquished by Harry already) or if he doesn't fear death anymore and is willing to live a different life until his death ( Oh, so unlikely, but who knows what the power of love in his blood and the absence of the horcruxes will do)

A poster above mentions Macbeth (my favourite play!)
Macbeth heard a prophecy which he believed enough to follow it. But its unclear as to whether the prophecy would have come true anyway, because it HAD to, or whether Macbeth MADE it happen because he wanted it to. Macbeth could have ignored it and events could have unfolded differently.

We can't assume that the prophecy WILL come true, there are still other possibilities open at the moment.


  #56  
Old December 8th, 2006, 9:54 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Only the Oxford Compact dictionary has it that way (that's the free online Oxford dictionary). The full OED doesn't. It lists which is archaic usage and which is modern. I'm trying to find an online source for it. I had one in past, but a quick google didn't turn anything up. I'm sorry, but I'm going to be busy and won't be able to follow up for a few days. We'll have to leave this where it is, and I'll return to it then.

The grammar rule I learned in school (fifty years ago) was the kind of confusing nonsense that reeked of formal (i.e. British) usage. Grammar usage and rules in America tend to get streamlined or tossed out.
I'm not really trying to "weigh in" on the word usage, just wanted to be helpful because I can access the OED online through my academic institutional subscription (they are pricey, so yay! library access). Anyway, the full OED does not seem to distinguish as "archaic" the use of "either" to mean "each" in both the adjective and pronominal cases. I didn't want to make a miles-long post on this point (which probably only a few of us grammar freaks find compelling), but here are the main entries, sans quotes & etymology. Feel free to argue the finer points amongst yourselves ad infinitum
Quote:
either, a. (pron.) and adv. (conj.)
A. adj. (pron.)
I. Each of the two.
1. a. As adj. used attrib.
b. With plural n.: = ‘both’. Also (rarely), either both, in same sense. Obs.
c. With possessive pron. interposed before the n. Obs. rare.
d. either other: each of the two. (In quot. with pl. vb. as if = ‘both’.) Obs.

2. a. absol. as pron.; used both of persons and things. Often followed by of with pl. n. or pron. (In ME. with gen. pl. in same sense; in the case of pronouns this survived until 17th c., e.g. your either = ‘either of you’.) Obs. or arch.
b. With plural concord. Obs.
c. Sometimes = each (of more than two things).
d. either other: = ‘each other’: cf. EACH. Obs. exc. in form either..the other.
Usually the two words were in different grammatical relations, one of them (in most cases the former) being the subj., and the other governed in acc., genit., or dat. by a vb., n., or prep. Sometimes, however, either other became a compound (cf. each other, and might be governed by a prep.


II. One or other of the two.
3. a. As adj. used attrib.
b. either other: one or the other of two. Obs.
4. a. absol. as pron. (Formerly sometimes inflected in genit.)
b. either of both: = ‘either of the two’. Obs.
c. Sometimes = any one (of more than two).
B. as adv. (conj.) I. Adverbial uses of A. I.
1. In OE. and early ME. = BOTH. In the oldest use followed by {asg}e..{asg}e, or }e..and; afterwards {asg}e was omitted, and being retained in the second place. Obs.
2. Used to connect more than two terms. Obs.

II. Adverbial uses of A. II.
3. Introducing the mention of alternatives. a. either..or, {dag}either..o(u)ther. (Formerly either might be preceded by an adj.; see quot. 1594.)
b. either..either: = either..or. Obs.
c. either-or, either/or [in some examples reflecting Da. enten-eller (title of book by the Danish philosopher Kierkegaard, 1843)], used as n., a necessary or unavoidable choice between alternatives. Also attrib. or as adj., black and white, susceptible of only one of two (often extreme) solutions, responses, etc.
4. = Or. Also, either else = or else. Obs.
5. a. As an alternative, ‘which way you please’. b. In negative or interrogative sentences: Any more than the other.
(emphasis added are mine, just to help wade through the many, many defs here)

So it seems like in our construction, "either must die at the hand of the other," since "either" is the pronoun, we would be looking at EITHER (ugh) a case of A.I.2.d. "either...other," in which case "either" means "each" OR a case of A.II.3.b. "either...other," where the phrase would mean "one or the other of the two." Interestingly enough, the OED lists the second choice "one or the other" as the "obsolete" reading of "either ... other," while the first reading ("each other") is not obsolete, so long as it is in the form of "either... the other" (as our prophecy is).

So where does this get us? In my opinion, nowhere! I honestly believe that the prophecy can still be read as ambigious. Because the form "either...other" verges on the obsolete, and because both "each" and "one or the other" are accepted readings of the phrase, I don't think we can have a definitive reading. But I expect that others will disagree. Anyway, I just wanted to help by serving as the OED-online copyright-violator -- I mean, "researcher." Have fun!

P.S. I suppose if I were truly vigilant, I could look to see if there's similar "neither...other" weirdness in the "neither" entry, but I don't think I have the fortitude right now! Maybe later...


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  #57  
Old December 9th, 2006, 7:53 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugabeen View Post
Not only does Harry have his mother's love, he has the knowledge that his parents loved each other and wanted him.
He also knows what Voldemort may not-that Voldemort's parents did not love each other. He knows that they were only together because of a spell. Maybe that spell had an effect on the unborn Tom.
what an interesting idea!
if that were true, maybe there would be a spell that could undo it. (though I don't think that would do much for the books.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Never mind Occam's Razor, here's Hinoema's (cute pink) Razor:

If the casual reader needs to reference an outside source to understand a (supposed) plot point, it's most likely an incorrect interpretation.

You should be able to understand the Harry Potter books by reading only the Harry Potter books. Archaic English is not general knowledge, and basing a plot point on the understanding of such (or alchemy, or symbolism not described onpage, or anything else similar) makes the books inaccessible and unsolveable for younger readers and many foreign readers.

Also, Jo and any character who cares to clarify have all agreed- the Prophecy involves Harry and Voldemort. Neville could have been involved, but wasn't. No one else is ever mentioned as being a subject of the Prophecy. If 'either' interpreted as 'both' were to be relevant, the prophecy would not be described so far only in terms of applicability to Harry and Voldemort alone.

As for Snape, he has been one of many involved in the Prophecy, but I see nothing to suggest that any of it is about him (or Peter, or anyone else besides harry and Voldemort).

The only two major characters in HP, really, are Harry and Voldemort- protagonist, antagonist. Everyone else is to facilitate something to further their conflict, even Dumbledore, even Snape. No one else will be the focus of the Prophecy. Many had a hand in facilitating it and will have a hand in resolving it, but it is about Harry and his conflict with Voldemort. Everyone else is defined by which character they support and are motivated by- Harry, Voldemort, or both.
I have to disagree with you here. While yes, one can understand the basic plot of the series by reading only the books, I think you must admit that there are several layers to the story that are enriched by consulting outside sources. For example- the names of characters and places have origins that are not explained explicity in the books, but still add to the story if the reader is aware of those origins. Also the books parallel both folklore and history which are both valuable tools for analyzing the work- which is, in a nutshell, what we are doing on this website.
As far as the prophecy goes I'll say it for the last time and leave you all alone:
'Jo and any character who cares to clarify' ...have all INDICATED or ASSUMED that the prophecy is about Voldemort and Harry, but JK said herself that it was CAREFULLY WRITTEN in order to be ambiguous. Because of this, I do not think it's outside the realm of possibility for the author to hit us with another suprise, that she has been setting up discreetly all along. Perhaps to prevent the Hero from becoming a murderer, perhaps to make a statement about fate and choice... who knows? I havn't read it yet. I'm just speculating.
But I am suprised to see that devoted readers of this story where "things are not always as they seem"- are still being so closed minded about one of the major plot points in the book.


  #58  
Old December 9th, 2006, 11:48 pm
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Oh, I'm not saying it's impossible- I'd never do that. Just, as far as I see, highly improbable. The Prophecy doesn't really need involvement by another person as a subject of the prophecy to perform admirably in the story's resolution. Adding background and explanation for said third party seems, again to me, cumbersome at this point.

Many people- just about everyone- is involved in the prophecy to extent. It's the central thematic 'line' of the entire story. I simply, myself, disagree that the prophecy itself speaks of anyone besides Harry and Voldemort as direct objects.

Other characters can have a huge impact on the story, and on the progress of the prophecy, without being named in it- Snape and Peter are excellent examples. The prophecy would have been meaningless without Snape's betrayal. Even with that, it would have some to nothing without Peter's betrayal. Both actions together were critical in allowing the prophecy to be what it became. However, neither man needed to be specifically referred to in the prophecy for this to have happened. Does that explain my take a bit better?


  #59  
Old December 10th, 2006, 12:37 am
shadowdogs  Undisclosed.gif shadowdogs is offline
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

quote from Sugabeen
Quote:
A side effect from the love potion Merope gave to his father. He wasn't the product of a loving relationship - maybe there are side effects if a child is produced under those conditions. Tom Riddle's blood would still have contained the potion when he fathered Voldemort, right?

This being the case, Voldemort's blood may contain something that renders him unable to love, unable to distinguish real love from obsessive.
Like some sort of love potion crack baby?? If love potion were that dangerous, it would have to be controlled more strictly. I'm glad you're looking for some way for Tom Riddle to be... I guess cured. I know most think it's a hopeless case, but if it were, then wouldn't evil win, even if he died?

quote from Thimble:
Quote:
So where does this get us? In my opinion, nowhere!
I couldn't agree more I'm an oed.com junkie myself and once spent an entire afternoon studying words that include "ject."

For me, the "either" passage means one has to die. The "hand" for me is a hint that there isn't magic involved, but that's just one way of seeing things

I think both will have to face the prospect of losing their magical powers, and both will have to face the possibility of death.

Earlier, I remarked that the Dark Lord, Voldemort, doesn't live at this point anyway, that Voldemort is just an idea that Tom Riddle has of what the perfect being is (got lost in whole either/either debate). Any thoughts?


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  #60  
Old December 10th, 2006, 2:35 am
Beclyn  Female.gif Beclyn is offline
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally posted by ComicBookWorm
Of course it was always going to be Harry--JKR decided that before any words ever got put to paper. But those numbers aren't a clue to who would be the chosen one, since they are JKR's numbers. She likes them and uses them. But whether it is her use of the numbers or Harry as the chosen one, those are author decisions that are external to the events in storyline.

However, we have been told within the storyline that it could have been either Neville or Harry until Voldemot attacked and marked Harry. In fact, JKR told us that in a FAQ quiz on the website. And that is the information we should rely on.
I do realize that Harry is the main character and Hero, and of course the prophecy is refering to him. However I disagree that the prophecy could of ever meant Neville, and not just because Harry is the main character.

Vold did have choices when he heard about the prophecy, everybody has a choice. He could of choose Harry, or Neville, or to do nothing at all, or wait till the boys grew up before acting, or ect...

However, I don't think Vold marking Harry as his equal is the only thing that makes Harry "the one with the power to Vanquish the Dark Lord"

JKR does say that if Frank or Alice died for Neville in the way that Lily died for Harry, Neville would of survived with the scar. But then she goes on to say that "Harrys survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar."

JKR asks the question "Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals?" Then JKR says, "Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so; he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar."

So even though Dumbledore doesn't say it to Harry in the books, Dumbledore does not believe the prophecy was refering to Neville.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" referes to a specific person, and that person only.

JKR says,"Voldemort was presented with the choice of two baby boys to whom the prophecy might apply. (Emphasis mine) JKR goes on to say, "In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder he was also(without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One- to give him tools no other wizard possessed- the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind."

Two candidates, only one of them correct. "The Chosen One" refers to the choice Vold made. If Vold chose differently, Neville would of been "The Chosen One". But being the chosen one and bearing the scar-with all the scars abilities- isn't all that is required to have "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." I think JKR makes it clear, in the books and on her site, that even with a scar Neville would not have "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord", and that means the prophecy itself could not have ever been refering to Neville.

Then the prophecy goes on " and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal". So in effect, Vold will find the one and only person capable of vanquishing him and then mark him, making the one and only person the prophecy is refering to identifiable.

The prophecy reads like a timeline, leading up to the epic battle that we know must happen. JKR is master of throwing in little, but highly significant, things into her writing. I don't find it a coincidense that Harry's birth date(7/31) appears in the prophecy, especially when she says the prophecy was worded carefully.



Last edited by Beclyn; December 10th, 2006 at 3:45 am.
 
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