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All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording



 
 
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  #81  
Old December 12th, 2006, 9:44 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Oh! Oh! If that's settled then what about this? Does "either must die at the hand of the other" mean that ONLY Harry can cause Voldemort's death and ONLY Voldemort can cause Harry's death? And, if that's what it means, does that further mean that once one of them IS dead at the hand of the other, that the other one can't be killed by anyone else...? Also, wouldn't that mean that if they agreed never killed each other they would both live forever? (of course, according to the prophesy, they couldn't make any such agreement, but...)

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either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...


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  #82  
Old December 12th, 2006, 10:04 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

"power the Dark Lord knows not..."

Is it possible that Harry still has some power up his sleeve that Voldie doesn't know about? We know that the meaning of a prophecy can change, depending on the individuals invloved. We also know that Voldie is fully aware of the protection Lily provided. Now Voldie can touch Harry, believing he has overcome the hurdle he needed to clear to be able to kill Harry. Voldie admitted that he was not expecting the result of Lily's sacrifice, but that he should have. So my question is... Is the prophecy still accurate in this regard? Does Harry posses yet another power that Voldemort is still unaware of? I think he does. I think there is something that Harry is capable of, or something within him, that Voldemort (and, quite possibly, the reader) is still in the dark about.

And, in response to some of the other avenues of discussion in this thread, I don't think it would be so far fetched if Harry did indeed kill Voldemort. Dumbledore told him that one of them would have to kill the other one. I think, at that moment, he accepted that task. And after everything that Voldemort has put Harry through...killing his parents, scarring him, altering his life so drastically and then all of the more recent events that led to the death of Sirius, the death of Cedric, the loss of DD, why wouldn't Harry kill Voldemort. Voldemort isn't human anymore. He's a monster. He's become something like a vampire, someone who destroys life. He's not like Wormtail, who is unlikable and evil and snivelling, but still human with human qualities like fear and regret. No one refers to Van Helsing as a murderer when you're talking about Dracula. He's a protector, doing away with monsters and evil beings. That's what Harry would be if he killed Voldemort. Not a murderer, but a hero, a protector.


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  #83  
Old December 12th, 2006, 10:34 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowdogs View Post
Oh! Oh! If that's settled then what about this? Does "either must die at the hand of the other" mean that ONLY Harry can cause Voldemort's death and ONLY Voldemort can cause Harry's death? And, if that's what it means, does that further mean that once one of them IS dead at the hand of the other, that the other one can't be killed by anyone else...? Also, wouldn't that mean that if they agreed never killed each other they would both live forever? (of course, according to the prophesy, they couldn't make any such agreement, but...)
First of all, it's a prophecy, not a view into the future. Dumbledore said that not all prophecies come true. Harry would die if a Death Eater attacked him. But since Voldemort told his Death Eaters to leave Harry alone, he has made Harry safe from other attackers, and vulnerable to him alone, just as the prophecy predicted.

Voldemort cannot die until his horcruxes are destroyed. Harry is the one going after the horcruxes and will most likely destroy them, thereby making Harry the one most likely to vanquish Voldemort. By creating horcruxes and then giving someone the drive, the ability and the incentive to destroy them, Voldemort has once again helped to fulfill the prophecy. But once the horcruxes are gone, anyone can kill Voldemort. Voldemort's actions are what is fulfilling the prophecy.



Last edited by SusanBones; December 12th, 2006 at 10:39 pm.
  #84  
Old December 13th, 2006, 9:11 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

But I'm not talking about a view into the future. I'm talking about what the prophesy says. It does say that only Harry can kill Voldemort and that only Voldemort can kill Harry. Will the prophesy be fulfilled when one of them dies? Or does it continue on? Supposing Harry was the one who died. Would that mean no one could kill Voldemort ever again? Does the prospect of killing Harry give Voldemort the feeling that he would have succeeded in cheating death permanently? Does the prophesy indicate that Harry is Voldemort's only obstacle to immortality?


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  #85  
Old December 14th, 2006, 1:39 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
I don't really think Harry has very much of a choice. Voldemort will continue to plot his murder, and whille he does this, some sort of battle between the two is enevitable. I always thought that the prophecy meant that when one died, the other would die as well. I'm starting to think it may be a reference to Harry's lack of choice. If Voldemort stopped looking for him, then both would live.
But if you think about it, Voldemort is immortal until all of the Horcruxes are destroyed. Since Harry is not immortal, he would die. Hence, one is going to live and the other will die. If Harry destroys all of the Horcruxes, Voldemort could just die of old age even though wizards live longer than muggles; Harry is younger and would have more life in him.


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  #86  
Old December 20th, 2006, 2:33 am
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The Prophecy-A Weapon?

Here is a quote from Dumbledore at the end of OotP, US, Hardcover, page 839.

Quote:
"He discovered, to his cost, that he was mistaken, then the curse intended to kill you backfired. And so, since his return to his body, and particularly since your extraordinary escape from him last year, he has been determined to hear that prophecy inits entirety. This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you."
In what way could the prophecy be considered a weapon? How does anything in the prophecy tell Voldemort how to destroy Harry?


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  #87  
Old December 20th, 2006, 2:39 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

Well, none of them knew what the prophecy so it could have said how to destroy Harry. I think. Because Voldemort only knew the part of the prophecy that said, "This boy could grow up to defeat you." And it could have said, "This boy could grow up to defeat you unless you..." Or something. I have absolutely no idea!


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  #88  
Old December 20th, 2006, 2:49 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

I think Voldemort is so strong in his belief in his invincibility that he'd assume there had to be some way around "the one with the power to vanquish" and that the Prophecy that first mentioned "the one" would also show his weakness.


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  #89  
Old December 20th, 2006, 3:43 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

He might not have been looking for an actual way to kill him, but what was to happen for him to get rid of Harry. He might have thought he had to do special things, as what potter freak said.


  #90  
Old December 20th, 2006, 4:04 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

Yeah. So basically it could have been a weapon, but no one was really sure. I think...


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  #91  
Old December 20th, 2006, 4:33 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ID824 View Post
In what way could the prophecy be considered a weapon? How does anything in the prophecy tell Voldemort how to destroy Harry?
I think the only way that it could possibly be a weapon is if he found out the entire thing and it could have told him how it was that Harry defeated him in the first place. By knowing this information, he could finish off Harry. That's the only way I see it as a legit weapon.


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  #92  
Old December 20th, 2006, 8:00 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ID824 View Post

In what way could the prophecy be considered a weapon? How does anything in the prophecy tell Voldemort how to destroy Harry?
I think the answer is in the quote. The 'weapon' is the knowledge of how to destroy Harry, or so LV thinks. Of course we know that the prophecy doesn't have that handy info, but LV didn't know that. This reminds me of the begginning of OoTP, when they hear about the 'weapon' that LV was after, and everyone is trying to figure out what it is, and of course, all you ( or at least all I) can think about is some kind of huge magical cannon or something. Some kind of physical harm producing device. Not something so seemingly innocent as a prophecy.


  #93  
Old December 20th, 2006, 9:14 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

the knowledge of how to destroy harry would be the ultimate weapon for LV, in his eyes destroying harry would be fulfilling the prophecy and thus making him invincible. so in a way the prophecy could be a weapon.


  #94  
Old December 20th, 2006, 9:46 am
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Re: The Prophecy-A Weapon?

Because it provides knowledge. Knowledge provides power. Power provides strenght. Strength provides an upper hand, Etc


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  #95  
Old December 26th, 2006, 9:34 pm
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the meaning of the prophecy

i think i may have figured out the meaning of the prophecy.

right now lets go over it piece by piece.

the first part of the prophecy the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord aproaches

the meaning of this is obvious. there will be a baby bord soon with th power to rid the world of voldemort. now the second line born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies. again obvious meaning the baby will be born to those who have escaped voldemort 3 times and he will be born at the end of the 7th month.
this is the interesting part and the dark lord will amrk him as his equal, but he will have powers the dark lord knows not. we will come to this part in a moment its the next part that make this make sense to me an a couple of mates.
and either must die at the hands of the other, for neither can live while the other survives this part is how i came up with my thoery.( on the night the prophecy was made lilly an james were still alive. snape heard the prophecy and went to tell voldemort so he then waits until harry is born an attacks when he is 1.

so first he kills james and then tells lily to step aside but she dont. he then kills her an tried to kill harry but he couldent and harry survives

this might mean that voldemort cant live cos harry had allready survived. harry will be marked as his equal* the scar* and he will have powers the dark lord knows not *the power to kill voldemort as harry ahs allready survived so maybe voldemort cant live* so if all this is true the prophecy is allready fulfilled because harry has been born as the seventh month dies, voldemort marked him as his equal, he gave harry powers that he(voldemort) knew not the only part of the prophecy outstanding is harry or voldemorts death at the hand of the other. thanks for reading discuss.



Last edited by Alby_Coates; December 26th, 2006 at 9:36 pm. Reason: spellin mistakes
  #96  
Old December 26th, 2006, 9:48 pm
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Re: the meaning of the prophecy

This thread might help


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  #97  
Old December 26th, 2006, 11:31 pm
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

u moved it here? thanx what u think of my thoery?


  #98  
Old December 27th, 2006, 12:58 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgillyweed View Post
Question one:
I find this answer in the first line of the prophecy..."The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches". I assumed that the word "vanquish" meant kill; however, Webster's Dictionary defines "vanquish" as 1.) to overcome in battle: subdue completely, 2.) to defeat in a conflict, 3.) to gain mastery over.

In my opinion the first line of the prophecy insures that Harry will be successful in getting the upper hand in a battle with Voldemort. However, I don't think Harry will kill Voldemort.
I agree. Harry will get the aupper hand... but over TOM first. I believe that Dumbledore kept refering to Voldie as Tom for a reason. It reminds Voldie of his human and more vouknerable side - a side that try as he might is mortal, and will never truely leave him. I believe this is the biggest clue Dumbledore left Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgillyweed View Post
Question two:
I find this answer is the second to last line of the prophecy..."either must die at the hand of the other...". JKR chose her words very carefully and here she chose to use the word "at" instead of "by". Again I looked up the word "at". It can be used to indicate a location... "at the store", "at his hand". If she had said "by the hand of the other" it would have been clear. One has to kill the other. But...

What if Harry just has to gain control over Voldemort and someone else kills him? The prophecy would still be fullfilled.
Following up on what I've just said, Voldemort can not truely live while Tom survives, just as Harry can't truely live while he is "the boy who lived". Both characters are prevented from living their personal lives while thier public personas exist. This is also part of the prophesy "niether can live..." However, Voldemort has chosen his existance over life, and Harry cant live as a regular person despite desperately wanting to shed his public existance - Voldie wont let him. The only option Harry has then, is to vanquish the dark lord - the persona of Voldemort. This does not neccessarily mean he kills Tom as well.

This theory is a bit circular, so I hope I made it clear enough!

When Harry gets the upperhand, I dont think he will have to kill Voldie either. If Harry is able to break Tom, Tom will not be able to live with being human. He is a coward and has run from death his entire life. He has not seen his sef worth as a person, half blood or no. He has lead others into a life of destruction and have manipulated powerful people who will not be made fools of.

With no power over death, I believe Tom will either finish the job himself, or the Death Eaters will turn on him.


  #99  
Old December 27th, 2006, 1:21 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alby_Coates View Post
u moved it here? thanx what u think of my thoery?
Hi, we're not supposed to use text speak here because we have a large international user base and it is hard for them to understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonarcher View Post
Following up on what I've just said, Voldemort can not truely live while Tom survives, just as Harry can't truely live while he is "the boy who lived". Both characters are prevented from living their personal lives while thier public personas exist. This is also part of the prophesy "niether can live..." However, Voldemort has chosen his existance over life, and Harry cant live as a regular person despite desperately wanting to shed his public existance - Voldie wont let him. The only option Harry has then, is to vanquish the dark lord - the persona of Voldemort. This does not neccessarily mean he kills Tom as well.
JKR has told us that Tom is Voldemort and Voldemort is Tom. She has also referred to Harry's task as killing Voldemort in the TLC/Mnet interview. Harry will be responsible for Voldemort's death, he may not actually kill him since the phrase in the prophecy is die at his hand (not by his hand). But someone that evil has to die, because the wizarding world would never have peace since he could always turn evil again.

Dumbledore was just calling Voldemort Tom to put him in his place, as a way to unnerve him a bit.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; December 27th, 2006 at 5:26 am.
  #100  
Old December 27th, 2006, 3:30 am
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Re: All about the prophecy: meaning, significance and wording

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post

JKR has told us that Tom is Voldemort and Voldemort is Tom. She has also referred to Harry's task as killing Voldemort in the TLC/Mnet interview. Harry will be responsible for Voldemort's death, he may not actually kill him since the phrase in the prophecy is die at his hand (not by his hand). But someone that evil has to die, since the wizarding world would never have peace since he could always turn evil again.

Dumbledore was just calling Voldemort Tom to put him in his place, as a way to unnerve him a bit.
I agree Dumbledore calls him Tom to rattle him too, and I get the fact Voldemort and Tom are one and the same. What I mean is, no matter how hard you want to pretend to be someone else, and how much you hate being yourself, elements of your past always make up part of your present. Voldemort will never be the all powerful overlord, because the person he was, Tom, will always be with him. He can't run from that, anymore than he can make himself a "pure blood" wizard. Just because he doesn't show his human side, doesn't mean he doesn't suffer from human vulnerability. It is this vulnerability that I believe Harry will need to seek out in order to vanquish Voldemort. He's already doing this by getting rid of the horcruxes one by one, and getting rid of his power bases - fear and the Death eaters. Once mortal again, Voldemort is "reduced" to his human form - Tom.

I agree a person so evil can't stay alive, especially since it is the last book, and there needs to be some finality. I just dont think Harry will need to kill him off.


 
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